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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness

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  • JEREMY MARR
    Hey Rita, Look before you leap, think outside the box... and other such tired clichés. These ARE the facts as we know them because they are being discovered
    Message 1 of 17 , Sep 1, 2002
      Hey Rita,

      Look before you leap, think outside the box... and other such tired clichés. These ARE the facts as we know them because they are being discovered as we go along. Stop taking yourself out of the picture, measuring everything in a objective manner, there is no objectivity in nature, only the subjective view. We are all in it, even though most people want to pave it over.
      There are subtleties in this that can not be expressed that well with language, so we get the ideas across in whatever metaphor will work. If you are unhappy with the metaphor, use your own. But please don't judge others' out loud, we are all working towards the same goals here.
      It is commendable that you realize how important this is and I hope that you can find the patience needed to help make this wise man's ideas work for everyone (If you haven't read One Straw Revolution yet, please do). It is by nature a slow and conservative process if you want it to work. The way things are now are a result of moving too fast.
      And you're right. I don't think people are cattle either. They are much more like sheep.

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Rita Winfield
      Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:36 AM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness

      I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
      intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
      the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
      those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
      mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
      religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
      Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
      Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
      ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
      reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
      Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
      incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!

      To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
      Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
      compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
      for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
      there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.

      "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE

      What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the concern
      about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
      preservatives?"

      And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
      SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence wildings
      through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
      poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
      herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating utensils.
      This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"

      marguerite
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Don Graves" <dgraves@...>
      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:27 AM
      Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees


      > From the far North to Coramandel Peninsular of the North Island in New
      > Zealand once grew ancient forests of huge forest canopy trees, Kauri
      > (Agathis australis) ... a 'pine' with cone & needles.
      > The forest soils that formed under such pines resulted in highly organic
      > soils 'Podzols' - or 'egg-shell' soils.
      > They have a 'mouth-wash-like' (phenolic) toxicity to decomposer soil
      > organisms & subsequently leaf litter accumulates with little
      > decomposition...
      > Under Pine forests these acicic & highly organic soils are ocupied by
      > mycorrhizas and suitable host plant roots
      > The pine forests can also be seen as cyclic 'fire-ecosystems', similarly
      > 'Eucalypts' (gum trees) from Australia. Fires may periodically destroy
      old
      > trees & release ashes & new seeds ... new regrowth
      >
      > A human advantage of the toxic quality the Cupressus family is ....
      > we don't have to chemically treat such timbers
      > .
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
      > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:56 PM
      > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      >
      >
      > > We wash floors with pine oil because it is antibacterial, which
      > > does also slow down the microbial action in soil & compost. Does
      > > anyone happen to know if Cypress has the same "soil disinfecting"
      > > quality?
      > >
      > > Lucky for those who are far enough to the north that Mr. B. Ewing
      > > has the very thing, beautiful web site (with a wolf link!), in the
      > > serviceable saskatoon. Serviceberries have high tolerance for "poor"
      > > soil that has low levels of natural composting. Did I miss an actual
      > > word for that to go research surfing? Our need category is named poor
      > > soil tolerators of a more southeastern U.S. clime This would be a
      > > class of plants to start enriching a do nothing plot.
      > >
      > > Our east side of the building is under two huge Leland Cypress, or
      > > is it Leylan, (the dog ate my homework). Anything we plan on growing
      > > out there must be non-toxic to curious children. We are regular
      > > callers of the poison control center number, describing the leaves,
      > > berries, once a mushroom (stomach pumping) that children suddenly
      > > decide to eat as we picnic in the meadow or walk down the hill to the
      > > river. Anything we want to plant near the school is checked there
      > > first. And, yes, we do regularly have that cautionary talk about never
      > > eating plants that were picked by children, unless the teacher asks
      > > you to pick them. The four year old ate the bite of the field
      > > mushroom, she said, "Because I'm Alice". We had just read the part
      > > about the mushroom from Alice in Wonderland.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > howard.petts@... wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Thanks again Bob. I'm starting to get the idea..
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Bob Ewing <urbanpermaculture@...> on 29/08/2002 01:39:50
      > > >
      > > > Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > > cc:
      > > >
      > > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      > > >
      > > > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:13:14 +1000
      > > > From: howard.petts@...
      > > > Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-re: pine trees
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for your response Bob. Apparently its an
      > > > Austrian pine (or
      > > > European
      > > > Black Pine). In terms of the One Straw method, how
      > > > would you go about
      > > > planting (chuck a few seed balls under it and wait)?
      > > > Also, are service
      > > > berries things like blackberries, raspberries, etc?
      > > >
      > > > greetings, this site will give you info on the service
      > > > berry or saskatoon:
      > > > http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/amelanchier.html
      > > >
      > > > I am working on a site that is mostly pine and spruce
      > > > and , among other things, will be making seedballs
      > > > that contain hazelnut and servcice berry. Some will be
      > > > placed under the pine, the number of seebdalls will
      > > > depend upon the amount of ground to be covered. I use
      > > > this site http://ww.seedballs.com for info.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > =====
      > > > Bob Ewing, Permaculture Design
      > > > Ecological gardening email course
      > > > http://ca.geocities.com/urbanpermaculture/ecogarden.htm
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > _____________________________________________________________________
      > > >
      > > > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      > > >
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    • RobinFern�ndez-Medina
      Hello everyone, It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
        Hello everyone,

        It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
        Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?

        Regards,

        Robin
        Malaga, Spain



        ---------------------------------
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      • Don Graves
        Hi Robin Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing... this is in part because there are a significant numbers of parasitic fungi, &
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
          Hi Robin
          Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing...
          this is in part because there are a significant numbers of 'parasitic'
          fungi, & 'pathogenic' (disease-causing) fungi associated with poor plant
          health , reduced vigour, poor harvest yields & storage

          There are also many many fungi involved in 'rotting' / 'decomposing' or
          'saprotrophic' fungi.
          There are some decomposing fungi that may also be capable of forming
          beneficial symbioses with woody plants

          However, ... the co-evolutionary plant advantages of endo-mycorrhizas may be
          presumed to have been ever since plants first began colonising relatively
          droughted dryland soils (~450 Million years ago)
          [ie
          improved drought tolerance
          increased plant availability of soil nutrients (eg. Phosphate & Zinc)
          in exchange for plant derived energy deposited into soil fung & other soil
          organisms;
          ... additionally soil-aggregation is promoted by mycorrhizal soil-hyphae
          with a so-called 'sticky-stringbag effect" caused by a combination of
          physical enmeshment of soil by fungal hyphae, and fungal exudates 'glomalin'
          glueing / binding soil into micro- & macro-aggregates (& thus helping soil
          drainage & aeration)

          The best prevention of plant fungal root diseases is to get clean-stored
          seeds started & inoculated (inhabited) with healthy biologically diverse
          soil micro-organisms. A root occupied with a 'beneficial' mycorrhizal
          fungus may thus physically displace the possibilty of further root
          infections by other soil fungi, including pathogens.

          Stored seeds can also be briefly soaked in a weak solution of a common
          bleach (eg. sodium-hyperchlorite)

          Plants may also have a reaction to being inhabited by fungi, a so-called
          'PR' or 'Pathogenesis Response', that may deminish the chances of further
          fungi inhabiting that plant.

          hope this helps
          regards
          Don
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Robin Fernández-Medina" <flyingdebris1@...>
          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:56 PM
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


          >
          > Hello everyone,
          >
          > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
          fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
          Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
          importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
          impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
          Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
          in the whole subject.
          > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
          and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
          fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
          of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
          vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
          well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
          fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
          approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
          most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
          some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
          care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
          vegetable patches?
          >
          > Regards,
          >
          > Robin
          > Malaga, Spain
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
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          > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Allan Balliett
          Robin - Check out Elaine Ingham s Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying of
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
            Robin -

            Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com


            Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
            of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.

            What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
            and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
            The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
            this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
            brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
            harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
            predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
            or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
            the soil that plants evolved in actually had.

            It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.

            For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
            speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
            Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com

            Ask me if you want to know more

            -Allan
          • gate44o
            First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as it appears the
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
              First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
              worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
              it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
              according to my nose.

              However, I imagine that sophisticated techniques can be used to
              minimize the smell problem from decomposition.

              Regardless, such methods are not quite as simple as Fukuoka managed to
              move towards and if you have time, you can content yourself with
              watching the effects of the fungus over time and learn what it is
              telling you. Plant a different type of vegetable. Harvest and replant
              seed from the plants that did the best against the fungus.

              I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
              plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.

              Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
              severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
              days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
              though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
              down to the stem will definitely help.

              What crops are the most affected in your climate?

              Leland

              --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., Robin "Fernández-Medina"
              <flyingdebris1@y...> wrote:
              >
              > Hello everyone,
              >
              > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
              fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets
              in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on
              the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I
              got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful
              chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are
              enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
              > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming
              method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the
              prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always
              have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and
              if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other
              brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and
              such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to
              use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate
              so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt
              kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be
              able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or
              size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Robin
              > Malaga, Spain
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • jamie
              Hello Robin, I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land you re growing
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                Hello Robin,
                I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                Jamie
                Souscayrous

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                >
                > Hello everyone,
                >
                > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                in the whole subject.
                > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                vegetable patches?
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Robin
                > Malaga, Spain
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Allan Balliett
                Robin, Leland, et al - I m a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I ve established 3 major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                  Robin, Leland, et al -

                  I'm a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I've established 3
                  major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                  member biodynamic CSA. I'm only saying this to point out that I spend
                  a lot of time with crop plants and have been doing so for years.

                  This season we have a drought. Fungus attacks were horrible, just the
                  same. Fungus does thrive where there is a lack of circulation, but
                  fungus does not need damp, moist, soil conditions to attack fruit or
                  leaves.

                  It's really important for growers who hope to address hunger issues
                  to be aware of the toll that undiagnosed fungus takes on the energy
                  and ultimate productivity of their crop plants. Until you garden is
                  totally balanced and your fertility levels balanced and high, fungus
                  can be a problem (depending on crop, variety and location.) It is
                  important to have a program of fungus control in place before you
                  even notice the fungus.

                  In biodynamics we use a tea made of horse tail to 'prevent' fungal outbreaks.

                  I'm not saying this to push biodynamics. I'm saying this because
                  there are tools in each of the essence gardening schools that can be
                  used to advantage by all the essence gardening schools. Horse Tail
                  tea is one of those useful tools.

                  Check out Howard Shapiro's GARDENING for the FUTURE of the EARTH
                  book. Howard was an actual student of Fukuoka. He wrote this book to
                  show how 'specialization,' e.g. following Steiner, Mollison or
                  Fukuoka to rigidly can delay attaining our true aims. In my case,
                  that would be growing the most highly nutritious food possible for as
                  many people as possible for as little money as possible.

                  -Allan


                  >I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
                  >plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.
                  >
                  >Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
                  >severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
                  >days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
                  >though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
                  >down to the stem will definitely help.
                  >
                  >What crops are the most affected in your climate?
                  >
                  >Leland
                • Allan Balliett
                  ... Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice earthy smell, like
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                    >
                    >First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
                    >worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
                    >it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
                    >according to my nose.

                    Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that
                    something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice
                    earthy smell, like leaf mulch in a healthy woods.

                    NEVER NEVER NEVER apply bad smelling compost tea to crops!!

                    Manure and herb teas are a different story. Some of the bad smells
                    indicate that the nitrogen is freed up and they are excellent at that
                    point to apply, diluted, to root zones.
                  • Don Graves
                    Hi Allan ... I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this Thurdsay Aug 5th In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 3, 2002
                      Hi Allan ...
                      I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this
                      Thurdsay Aug 5th

                      In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza research & organic
                      research, my observation
                      is that both are mostly about (PROCESSes) = (understanding & maintaining
                      soils & mycorrhizas)

                      Mycorrhizas & Organics research attract very poor levels of scientific or
                      technology research funding ...
                      providing few REMEDIAL MYCORRHIZA ( PRODUCTS )
                      aeroponic AM fungal spores
                      seed-balls
                      soil attached to fresh weed or crop roots from biologically diverse soils
                      eg. under pasture / lawn (undisturbed)

                      for use mainly in degraded & nutrient-'poor' soils

                      ie. research without 'product development'
                      = R without D
                      R&D are almost bound togther
                      more is the pity for the sake of planet Earth - (Gaea)

                      there are very few mychorrhiza inoculation technologies
                      & thus few 'development' opportunities for 'middle'-people to manufacture &
                      sell nutrient & crop-protection products to so-called 'producers' or growers

                      he she we ge can sense what was inherited free
                      GAEA's soil is alive, Earth lives!


                      we can manaaki (take care of) our whenua (land)
                      treat vegetation like a korowai (cloak)
                      or a living green skin
                      mulch & (suitable) plants protect against bare soil surfaces ... thus
                      reduce soil exposure to drying, & minimise wind & water erosion
                      however, ... compared to bare soil surfaces, shaded soil surfaces under
                      mulches / plants are slower to heat up at the beginning of Spring
                      here & now in Nelson, southern-hemisphere South-Pacific Aotearoa (New
                      Zealand) the Magnolia trees are in full spring bloom ... & life is truly
                      great..

                      There is more to wonder about
                      than we can ever learn,
                      ... awesome eh!



                      appolls for any philosophy & poetry
                      try my mycological (fungal) regards
                      Don





                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Allan Balliett" <igg@...>
                      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:53 PM
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                      > Robin -
                      >
                      > Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at
                      http://www.sfi.com
                      >
                      >
                      > Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
                      > of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.
                      >
                      > What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
                      > and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
                      > The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
                      > this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
                      > brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
                      > harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
                      > predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
                      > or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
                      > the soil that plants evolved in actually had.
                      >
                      > It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.
                      >
                      > For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
                      > speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
                      > Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com
                      >
                      > Ask me if you want to know more
                      >
                      > -Allan
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • RobinFernández-Medina
                      Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                        Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn, drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen dill get decimated in this fashion.
                        We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought and drought prone areas.
                        Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                        Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes. I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive. Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                        I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                        Regards,
                        Robin
                        jamie wrote:Hello Robin,
                        I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                        of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                        you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                        I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                        with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                        I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                        I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                        appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                        (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                        this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                        which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                        but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                        Jamie
                        Souscayrous

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Robin Fern�ndez-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                        >
                        > Hello everyone,
                        >
                        > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                        fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                        Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                        importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                        impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                        Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                        in the whole subject.
                        > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                        and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                        fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                        of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                        vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                        well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                        fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                        approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                        most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                        some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                        care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                        vegetable patches?
                        >
                        > Regards,
                        >
                        > Robin
                        > Malaga, Spain
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
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                        >
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                        >
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                      • Chris Sawyer
                        If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                          If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores and can even be used as a soil drench.
                          Chris Sawyer
                          www.jakesfarm.com
                        • jamie
                          Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just doing what it is
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                            Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
                            indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
                            doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To put
                            it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think you
                            probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
                            spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your local
                            viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
                            certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper enters
                            the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
                            respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
                            more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
                            don't have the www address);

                            >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
                            Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
                            with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree of
                            solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
                            sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
                            that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
                            fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions. The
                            fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
                            in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
                            is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
                            >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime would
                            generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
                            in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
                            used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue, the
                            use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
                            >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
                            enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury to
                            the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
                            lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
                            solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
                            >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident on
                            the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
                            addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
                            copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
                            the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts on
                            fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
                            bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux. They
                            may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and postharvest
                            leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
                            in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
                            lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
                            leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If a
                            >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop occur,
                            an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application may
                            prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.


                            I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
                            area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
                            allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
                            spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier this
                            year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
                            fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
                            just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
                            much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
                            leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring or
                            even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want to
                            look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
                            will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
                            California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one also,
                            should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
                            California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look at
                            that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is called
                            to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).

                            You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
                            spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by simply
                            following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
                            through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops and
                            I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
                            keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
                            available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has in
                            Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on progress
                            and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right path.
                            Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
                            through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you will
                            have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
                            healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
                            diseases.

                            Jamie
                            Souscayrous



                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
                            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus



                            Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and
                            others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                            outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on
                            what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
                            tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
                            impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
                            land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
                            clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
                            prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn,
                            drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
                            started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to
                            grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids
                            were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
                            alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
                            happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my
                            comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
                            noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
                            hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
                            that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal
                            point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen
                            dill get decimated in this fashion.
                            We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought
                            and drought prone areas.
                            Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes
                            unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                            Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes.
                            I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive.
                            Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                            I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                            Regards,
                            Robin
                          • RobinFernández-Medina
                            Hello Jamie, Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                              Hello Jamie,
                              Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little harsh too.
                              Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was close to 34� and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                              Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                              Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                              Robin



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                            • jamie
                              Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe that grapes
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                                Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount
                                sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe
                                that grapes can be grown without any spraying at all (and also immensely
                                gladdened). The sun and the aridity I can understand, vines are impressive
                                in their ability to withstand poor conditions, how else could they still
                                grow in the practically dead earth around here.


                                The Synergistic Garden Video Tape By Emilia Hazelip
                                Las Encantadas, BP 217, F-11306 Limoux-Cedex, France
                                Tel/Fax 33+46-83-15-111
                                emhaz@...

                                Whilst the initial digging of the raised beds would not appear to initially
                                favour Natural Farming practices, the actual effect of the raised beds is to
                                ensure the fertility of the soil and then maintain it in a wild state. You
                                can see photos of her raised beds and veg on Jim Bones' Seedballs site
                                (http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html) and a useful cropping plan for the
                                raised beds over their first three seasons (though being near Malaga you'll
                                need to develop the plan to your semi-tropical climate from its temperate
                                perspective).


                                Jamie
                                Souscayrous


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                                To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:15 PM
                                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus




                                Hello Jamie,
                                Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all
                                these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper
                                sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am
                                really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea
                                given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled
                                the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in
                                erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It
                                makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that
                                word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of
                                life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a
                                result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little
                                harsh too.
                                Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major
                                producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these
                                moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was
                                close to 34º and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am
                                getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and
                                every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                                Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and
                                learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                                Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the
                                Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                                Robin



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