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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness

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  • Don Graves
    The fact is we humans know very few FACTS about how plants & soil fungi interact together ecologically.... I make no appologies for having an M.Sc. in plant
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 31, 2002
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      The fact is we humans know very few 'FACTS' about how plants & soil fungi
      interact together ecologically....
      I make no appologies for having an M.Sc. in plant biology
      or using some jargon or specialised scientific termilogy like 'mycorrhizas',
      'podzol' (egg-shell) soils or plant 'common' & Latin / 'Linean'
      classification plant names), te Reo Maori (the Maori Language), eg. Kauri &
      'Agathis australis'
      GET REAL dude, ... what is this the 'word-police'??
      I'm not by choice being 'esoteric'
      (meaning making information only understandable for a 'select' few' ...
      like priests reading a 'Mass' ritual in the Latin language)
      I aim to be 'exoteric', meaning known to those listening & understanding on
      the outside,
      ...as in the term 'exoskeleton' of insects & crayfish meaning 'outer-' or
      'external-skeleton'

      Below I have pasted in a recent Nelson EcoFest pamphlet / poster / talk & I
      have many many other REFERENCES to offer in DISCUSSIONS re 'mycorrhizas'
      (SOIL- & ROOT-FUNGI)
      ... & SOIL DISTURBANCES by:
      conventional tillage practices by plough & rotary hoeing soils

      ... compared to 'no-dig' & 'conservation tillage' methods that DO NOT 'turn
      over' the surface / topsoil layers (horizons).

      ... & reported / published effects on mycorrhizas & crop plant & soil
      nutrition re
      'groundcover' / 'cover-crop'/ 'green-manure' rotations of the 'Brassica'
      plant family -
      (egs. cabbage / brocolli / cauliflower / mustard / Canola)

      Mycorrhizal Symbiosis





      Don Graves

      M.Sc. (Plant Biology), Institute of Molecular BioSciences,

      Massey University, Palmerston North

      ph: 03 539 1417 Nelson, dgraves@...



      What are Mycorrhizal Symbioses?

      (*mutually beneficial partnerships of soil-fungi & plant roots)



      How common are Mycorrhizas?



      Most crop & weed plant roots are hosts of mutually beneficial nutrient
      exchanges with mycorrhizal soil fungi

      About 90% of all plant species examined can form a mycorrhizal symbiosis

      Brassicas, Beets, Lupins & Buckwheat roots do not host mycorrhizal fungi



      How long have mycorrhizas been living with plant roots & soils?



      Zygomycete fungi, about 450 million years ago, when descendants of aquatic
      algae first began colonizing drier land soils, [aka Arbuscular - & endo -
      mycorrhizas]



      Later . Basidiomycete & Ascomycete fungi coevolved Ecto- & Ericaeous
      mycorrhizas with long lived, taller, stronger woody plants in more organic
      top soils

      What disrupts mycorrhizal populations?



      Physical disturbances by erosion or conventional tillage (ie. "turning over"
      or "huri poki" of soil by digging, plough or rotary hoe)

      Vegetation clearance

      Non-host crop plant rotations, eg. Brassicas

      Seasonal temperature & light related supplies of plant photosynthates
      (energy)

      How to re-introduce mycorrhizal soil fungi & plant seedlings

      Transplants of mycorrhizal inhabited seedlings from healthy soils

      Soil seedbed inoculation by prudential placement of a healthy soil
      surrounding seeds

      Seedballs - compost or topsoil & clay pelletized seeds

      How to save money sustaining networks of mycorrhizal fungi

      Surround seeds & seedling roots with fresh & locally derived healthy
      mycorrhizal soil-fungi

      No-dig no-weed reduces physical disturbances of networks of soil fungi.

      No-dig reduces seedbed 'tillage' time & energy costs

      Minimised need to use soluble or rock Phosphate minerals



      References

      Sally Smith & David Read (1997) Mycorrhizal Symbiosis (2nd Edn), Academic
      Press, Harcourt Brace & Co. Publishers, London

      Mark Brundrett, Neale Bougher, Bernie Dell, Tim Grove and Nick Malajczuk
      Working with Mycorrhizas in Agriculture & Forestry (1996) Australian Centre
      for Agricultural Research, http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/

      http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/ Mycorrhiza Information Exchange & Directory of
      Mycorrhizologists

      http://www.mycorrhizas.org/ International Mycorrhiza Society

      http://www.waite.adelaide.edu.au/Soil_Water/mycor.html# University of
      Adelaide Mycorrhiza Research Group, Australia
      http://www.waite.adelaide.edu.au/Soil_Water/3icom.html Third International
      Conference on Mycorrhizas ICOM3, 8-13 July 2001

      http://www.uoguelph.ca/botany/rootlab/ Root Biology & Mycorrhiza Research
      Group, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada

      http://www.congresbcu.com/icom4/ Fourth International Conference on
      Mycorrhizae ICOM4, August 10-15, 2003, Montreal, Canada.

      Seedballs: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sces/seedballnz/ &
      http://fc.meca.edu/~lmolyneaux/index.html





      PEACE TO ALL














      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Rita Winfield" <earthangel103@...>
      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:24 AM
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness


      > I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
      > intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
      > the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
      > those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
      > mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
      > religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
      > Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
      > Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
      > ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
      > reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
      > Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
      > incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!
      >
      > To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
      > Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
      > compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
      > for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
      > there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.
      >
      > "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE
      >
      > What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the
      concern
      > about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
      > preservatives?"
      >
      > And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
      > SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence
      wildings
      > through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
      > poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
      > herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating
      utensils.
      > This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"
      >
      > marguerite
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Don Graves" <dgraves@...>
      > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:27 AM
      > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      >
      >
      > > From the far North to Coramandel Peninsular of the North Island in New
      > > Zealand once grew ancient forests of huge forest canopy trees, Kauri
      > > (Agathis australis) ... a 'pine' with cone & needles.
      > > The forest soils that formed under such pines resulted in highly organic
      > > soils 'Podzols' - or 'egg-shell' soils.
      > > They have a 'mouth-wash-like' (phenolic) toxicity to decomposer soil
      > > organisms & subsequently leaf litter accumulates with little
      > > decomposition...
      > > Under Pine forests these acicic & highly organic soils are ocupied by
      > > mycorrhizas and suitable host plant roots
      > > The pine forests can also be seen as cyclic 'fire-ecosystems', similarly
      > > 'Eucalypts' (gum trees) from Australia. Fires may periodically destroy
      > old
      > > trees & release ashes & new seeds ... new regrowth
      > >
      > > A human advantage of the toxic quality the Cupressus family is ....
      > > we don't have to chemically treat such timbers
      > > .
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
      > > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:56 PM
      > > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      > >
      > >
      > > > We wash floors with pine oil because it is antibacterial, which
      > > > does also slow down the microbial action in soil & compost. Does
      > > > anyone happen to know if Cypress has the same "soil disinfecting"
      > > > quality?
      > > >
      > > > Lucky for those who are far enough to the north that Mr. B. Ewing
      > > > has the very thing, beautiful web site (with a wolf link!), in the
      > > > serviceable saskatoon. Serviceberries have high tolerance for "poor"
      > > > soil that has low levels of natural composting. Did I miss an actual
      > > > word for that to go research surfing? Our need category is named poor
      > > > soil tolerators of a more southeastern U.S. clime This would be a
      > > > class of plants to start enriching a do nothing plot.
      > > >
      > > > Our east side of the building is under two huge Leland Cypress, or
      > > > is it Leylan, (the dog ate my homework). Anything we plan on growing
      > > > out there must be non-toxic to curious children. We are regular
      > > > callers of the poison control center number, describing the leaves,
      > > > berries, once a mushroom (stomach pumping) that children suddenly
      > > > decide to eat as we picnic in the meadow or walk down the hill to the
      > > > river. Anything we want to plant near the school is checked there
      > > > first. And, yes, we do regularly have that cautionary talk about never
      > > > eating plants that were picked by children, unless the teacher asks
      > > > you to pick them. The four year old ate the bite of the field
      > > > mushroom, she said, "Because I'm Alice". We had just read the part
      > > > about the mushroom from Alice in Wonderland.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > howard.petts@... wrote:
      > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks again Bob. I'm starting to get the idea..
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Bob Ewing <urbanpermaculture@...> on 29/08/2002 01:39:50
      > > > >
      > > > > Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > cc:
      > > > >
      > > > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      > > > >
      > > > > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:13:14 +1000
      > > > > From: howard.petts@...
      > > > > Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-re: pine trees
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > Thanks for your response Bob. Apparently its an
      > > > > Austrian pine (or
      > > > > European
      > > > > Black Pine). In terms of the One Straw method, how
      > > > > would you go about
      > > > > planting (chuck a few seed balls under it and wait)?
      > > > > Also, are service
      > > > > berries things like blackberries, raspberries, etc?
      > > > >
      > > > > greetings, this site will give you info on the service
      > > > > berry or saskatoon:
      > > > > http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/amelanchier.html
      > > > >
      > > > > I am working on a site that is mostly pine and spruce
      > > > > and , among other things, will be making seedballs
      > > > > that contain hazelnut and servcice berry. Some will be
      > > > > placed under the pine, the number of seebdalls will
      > > > > depend upon the amount of ground to be covered. I use
      > > > > this site http://ww.seedballs.com for info.
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > =====
      > > > > Bob Ewing, Permaculture Design
      > > > > Ecological gardening email course
      > > > > http://ca.geocities.com/urbanpermaculture/ecogarden.htm
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      _____________________________________________________________________
      > > > >
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      > > > >
      > > > >
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      > > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
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      > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
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      > > > >
      > > > >
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      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      > > > >
      > > > >
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      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
    • JEREMY MARR
      Hey Rita, Look before you leap, think outside the box... and other such tired clichés. These ARE the facts as we know them because they are being discovered
      Message 2 of 17 , Sep 1, 2002
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        Hey Rita,

        Look before you leap, think outside the box... and other such tired clichés. These ARE the facts as we know them because they are being discovered as we go along. Stop taking yourself out of the picture, measuring everything in a objective manner, there is no objectivity in nature, only the subjective view. We are all in it, even though most people want to pave it over.
        There are subtleties in this that can not be expressed that well with language, so we get the ideas across in whatever metaphor will work. If you are unhappy with the metaphor, use your own. But please don't judge others' out loud, we are all working towards the same goals here.
        It is commendable that you realize how important this is and I hope that you can find the patience needed to help make this wise man's ideas work for everyone (If you haven't read One Straw Revolution yet, please do). It is by nature a slow and conservative process if you want it to work. The way things are now are a result of moving too fast.
        And you're right. I don't think people are cattle either. They are much more like sheep.

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rita Winfield
        Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:36 AM
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness

        I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
        intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
        the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
        those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
        mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
        religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
        Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
        Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
        ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
        reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
        Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
        incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!

        To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
        Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
        compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
        for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
        there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.

        "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE

        What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the concern
        about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
        preservatives?"

        And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
        SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence wildings
        through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
        poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
        herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating utensils.
        This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"

        marguerite
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Don Graves" <dgraves@...>
        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:27 AM
        Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees


        > From the far North to Coramandel Peninsular of the North Island in New
        > Zealand once grew ancient forests of huge forest canopy trees, Kauri
        > (Agathis australis) ... a 'pine' with cone & needles.
        > The forest soils that formed under such pines resulted in highly organic
        > soils 'Podzols' - or 'egg-shell' soils.
        > They have a 'mouth-wash-like' (phenolic) toxicity to decomposer soil
        > organisms & subsequently leaf litter accumulates with little
        > decomposition...
        > Under Pine forests these acicic & highly organic soils are ocupied by
        > mycorrhizas and suitable host plant roots
        > The pine forests can also be seen as cyclic 'fire-ecosystems', similarly
        > 'Eucalypts' (gum trees) from Australia. Fires may periodically destroy
        old
        > trees & release ashes & new seeds ... new regrowth
        >
        > A human advantage of the toxic quality the Cupressus family is ....
        > we don't have to chemically treat such timbers
        > .
        >
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
        > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:56 PM
        > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
        >
        >
        > > We wash floors with pine oil because it is antibacterial, which
        > > does also slow down the microbial action in soil & compost. Does
        > > anyone happen to know if Cypress has the same "soil disinfecting"
        > > quality?
        > >
        > > Lucky for those who are far enough to the north that Mr. B. Ewing
        > > has the very thing, beautiful web site (with a wolf link!), in the
        > > serviceable saskatoon. Serviceberries have high tolerance for "poor"
        > > soil that has low levels of natural composting. Did I miss an actual
        > > word for that to go research surfing? Our need category is named poor
        > > soil tolerators of a more southeastern U.S. clime This would be a
        > > class of plants to start enriching a do nothing plot.
        > >
        > > Our east side of the building is under two huge Leland Cypress, or
        > > is it Leylan, (the dog ate my homework). Anything we plan on growing
        > > out there must be non-toxic to curious children. We are regular
        > > callers of the poison control center number, describing the leaves,
        > > berries, once a mushroom (stomach pumping) that children suddenly
        > > decide to eat as we picnic in the meadow or walk down the hill to the
        > > river. Anything we want to plant near the school is checked there
        > > first. And, yes, we do regularly have that cautionary talk about never
        > > eating plants that were picked by children, unless the teacher asks
        > > you to pick them. The four year old ate the bite of the field
        > > mushroom, she said, "Because I'm Alice". We had just read the part
        > > about the mushroom from Alice in Wonderland.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > howard.petts@... wrote:
        > >
        > > >
        > > > Thanks again Bob. I'm starting to get the idea..
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Bob Ewing <urbanpermaculture@...> on 29/08/2002 01:39:50
        > > >
        > > > Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > > > cc:
        > > >
        > > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] pine trees
        > > >
        > > > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:13:14 +1000
        > > > From: howard.petts@...
        > > > Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-re: pine trees
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Thanks for your response Bob. Apparently its an
        > > > Austrian pine (or
        > > > European
        > > > Black Pine). In terms of the One Straw method, how
        > > > would you go about
        > > > planting (chuck a few seed balls under it and wait)?
        > > > Also, are service
        > > > berries things like blackberries, raspberries, etc?
        > > >
        > > > greetings, this site will give you info on the service
        > > > berry or saskatoon:
        > > > http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/amelanchier.html
        > > >
        > > > I am working on a site that is mostly pine and spruce
        > > > and , among other things, will be making seedballs
        > > > that contain hazelnut and servcice berry. Some will be
        > > > placed under the pine, the number of seebdalls will
        > > > depend upon the amount of ground to be covered. I use
        > > > this site http://ww.seedballs.com for info.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > =====
        > > > Bob Ewing, Permaculture Design
        > > > Ecological gardening email course
        > > > http://ca.geocities.com/urbanpermaculture/ecogarden.htm
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > _____________________________________________________________________
        > > >
        > > > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
        > > ADVERTISEMENT
        > > [Image]
        > > >
        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
        > >
        > >
        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
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        >
        >


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      • RobinFern�ndez-Medina
        Hello everyone, It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
        Message 3 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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          Hello everyone,

          It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
          Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?

          Regards,

          Robin
          Malaga, Spain



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        • Don Graves
          Hi Robin Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing... this is in part because there are a significant numbers of parasitic fungi, &
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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            Hi Robin
            Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing...
            this is in part because there are a significant numbers of 'parasitic'
            fungi, & 'pathogenic' (disease-causing) fungi associated with poor plant
            health , reduced vigour, poor harvest yields & storage

            There are also many many fungi involved in 'rotting' / 'decomposing' or
            'saprotrophic' fungi.
            There are some decomposing fungi that may also be capable of forming
            beneficial symbioses with woody plants

            However, ... the co-evolutionary plant advantages of endo-mycorrhizas may be
            presumed to have been ever since plants first began colonising relatively
            droughted dryland soils (~450 Million years ago)
            [ie
            improved drought tolerance
            increased plant availability of soil nutrients (eg. Phosphate & Zinc)
            in exchange for plant derived energy deposited into soil fung & other soil
            organisms;
            ... additionally soil-aggregation is promoted by mycorrhizal soil-hyphae
            with a so-called 'sticky-stringbag effect" caused by a combination of
            physical enmeshment of soil by fungal hyphae, and fungal exudates 'glomalin'
            glueing / binding soil into micro- & macro-aggregates (& thus helping soil
            drainage & aeration)

            The best prevention of plant fungal root diseases is to get clean-stored
            seeds started & inoculated (inhabited) with healthy biologically diverse
            soil micro-organisms. A root occupied with a 'beneficial' mycorrhizal
            fungus may thus physically displace the possibilty of further root
            infections by other soil fungi, including pathogens.

            Stored seeds can also be briefly soaked in a weak solution of a common
            bleach (eg. sodium-hyperchlorite)

            Plants may also have a reaction to being inhabited by fungi, a so-called
            'PR' or 'Pathogenesis Response', that may deminish the chances of further
            fungi inhabiting that plant.

            hope this helps
            regards
            Don
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Robin Fernández-Medina" <flyingdebris1@...>
            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:56 PM
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


            >
            > Hello everyone,
            >
            > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
            fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
            Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
            importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
            impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
            Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
            in the whole subject.
            > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
            and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
            fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
            of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
            vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
            well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
            fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
            approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
            most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
            some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
            care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
            vegetable patches?
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Robin
            > Malaga, Spain
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
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          • Allan Balliett
            Robin - Check out Elaine Ingham s Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying of
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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              Robin -

              Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com


              Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
              of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.

              What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
              and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
              The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
              this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
              brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
              harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
              predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
              or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
              the soil that plants evolved in actually had.

              It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.

              For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
              speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
              Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com

              Ask me if you want to know more

              -Allan
            • gate44o
              First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as it appears the
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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                First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
                worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
                it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
                according to my nose.

                However, I imagine that sophisticated techniques can be used to
                minimize the smell problem from decomposition.

                Regardless, such methods are not quite as simple as Fukuoka managed to
                move towards and if you have time, you can content yourself with
                watching the effects of the fungus over time and learn what it is
                telling you. Plant a different type of vegetable. Harvest and replant
                seed from the plants that did the best against the fungus.

                I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
                plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.

                Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
                severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
                days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
                though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
                down to the stem will definitely help.

                What crops are the most affected in your climate?

                Leland

                --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., Robin "Fernández-Medina"
                <flyingdebris1@y...> wrote:
                >
                > Hello everyone,
                >
                > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets
                in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on
                the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I
                got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful
                chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are
                enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
                > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming
                method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the
                prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always
                have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and
                if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other
                brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and
                such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to
                use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate
                so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt
                kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be
                able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or
                size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Robin
                > Malaga, Spain
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • jamie
                Hello Robin, I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land you re growing
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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                  Hello Robin,
                  I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                  of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                  you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                  I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                  with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                  I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                  I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                  appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                  (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                  this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                  which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                  but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                  Jamie
                  Souscayrous

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                  To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                  >
                  > Hello everyone,
                  >
                  > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                  fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                  Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                  importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                  impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                  Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                  in the whole subject.
                  > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                  and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                  fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                  of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                  vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                  well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                  fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                  approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                  most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                  some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                  care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                  vegetable patches?
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  >
                  > Robin
                  > Malaga, Spain
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                • Allan Balliett
                  Robin, Leland, et al - I m a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I ve established 3 major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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                    Robin, Leland, et al -

                    I'm a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I've established 3
                    major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                    member biodynamic CSA. I'm only saying this to point out that I spend
                    a lot of time with crop plants and have been doing so for years.

                    This season we have a drought. Fungus attacks were horrible, just the
                    same. Fungus does thrive where there is a lack of circulation, but
                    fungus does not need damp, moist, soil conditions to attack fruit or
                    leaves.

                    It's really important for growers who hope to address hunger issues
                    to be aware of the toll that undiagnosed fungus takes on the energy
                    and ultimate productivity of their crop plants. Until you garden is
                    totally balanced and your fertility levels balanced and high, fungus
                    can be a problem (depending on crop, variety and location.) It is
                    important to have a program of fungus control in place before you
                    even notice the fungus.

                    In biodynamics we use a tea made of horse tail to 'prevent' fungal outbreaks.

                    I'm not saying this to push biodynamics. I'm saying this because
                    there are tools in each of the essence gardening schools that can be
                    used to advantage by all the essence gardening schools. Horse Tail
                    tea is one of those useful tools.

                    Check out Howard Shapiro's GARDENING for the FUTURE of the EARTH
                    book. Howard was an actual student of Fukuoka. He wrote this book to
                    show how 'specialization,' e.g. following Steiner, Mollison or
                    Fukuoka to rigidly can delay attaining our true aims. In my case,
                    that would be growing the most highly nutritious food possible for as
                    many people as possible for as little money as possible.

                    -Allan


                    >I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
                    >plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.
                    >
                    >Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
                    >severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
                    >days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
                    >though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
                    >down to the stem will definitely help.
                    >
                    >What crops are the most affected in your climate?
                    >
                    >Leland
                  • Allan Balliett
                    ... Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice earthy smell, like
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
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                      >
                      >First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
                      >worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
                      >it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
                      >according to my nose.

                      Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that
                      something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice
                      earthy smell, like leaf mulch in a healthy woods.

                      NEVER NEVER NEVER apply bad smelling compost tea to crops!!

                      Manure and herb teas are a different story. Some of the bad smells
                      indicate that the nitrogen is freed up and they are excellent at that
                      point to apply, diluted, to root zones.
                    • Don Graves
                      Hi Allan ... I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this Thurdsay Aug 5th In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 3, 2002
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                        Hi Allan ...
                        I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this
                        Thurdsay Aug 5th

                        In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza research & organic
                        research, my observation
                        is that both are mostly about (PROCESSes) = (understanding & maintaining
                        soils & mycorrhizas)

                        Mycorrhizas & Organics research attract very poor levels of scientific or
                        technology research funding ...
                        providing few REMEDIAL MYCORRHIZA ( PRODUCTS )
                        aeroponic AM fungal spores
                        seed-balls
                        soil attached to fresh weed or crop roots from biologically diverse soils
                        eg. under pasture / lawn (undisturbed)

                        for use mainly in degraded & nutrient-'poor' soils

                        ie. research without 'product development'
                        = R without D
                        R&D are almost bound togther
                        more is the pity for the sake of planet Earth - (Gaea)

                        there are very few mychorrhiza inoculation technologies
                        & thus few 'development' opportunities for 'middle'-people to manufacture &
                        sell nutrient & crop-protection products to so-called 'producers' or growers

                        he she we ge can sense what was inherited free
                        GAEA's soil is alive, Earth lives!


                        we can manaaki (take care of) our whenua (land)
                        treat vegetation like a korowai (cloak)
                        or a living green skin
                        mulch & (suitable) plants protect against bare soil surfaces ... thus
                        reduce soil exposure to drying, & minimise wind & water erosion
                        however, ... compared to bare soil surfaces, shaded soil surfaces under
                        mulches / plants are slower to heat up at the beginning of Spring
                        here & now in Nelson, southern-hemisphere South-Pacific Aotearoa (New
                        Zealand) the Magnolia trees are in full spring bloom ... & life is truly
                        great..

                        There is more to wonder about
                        than we can ever learn,
                        ... awesome eh!



                        appolls for any philosophy & poetry
                        try my mycological (fungal) regards
                        Don





                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Allan Balliett" <igg@...>
                        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:53 PM
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                        > Robin -
                        >
                        > Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at
                        http://www.sfi.com
                        >
                        >
                        > Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
                        > of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.
                        >
                        > What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
                        > and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
                        > The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
                        > this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
                        > brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
                        > harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
                        > predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
                        > or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
                        > the soil that plants evolved in actually had.
                        >
                        > It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.
                        >
                        > For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
                        > speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
                        > Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com
                        >
                        > Ask me if you want to know more
                        >
                        > -Allan
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • RobinFernández-Medina
                        Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
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                          Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn, drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen dill get decimated in this fashion.
                          We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought and drought prone areas.
                          Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                          Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes. I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive. Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                          I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                          Regards,
                          Robin
                          jamie wrote:Hello Robin,
                          I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                          of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                          you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                          I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                          with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                          I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                          I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                          appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                          (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                          this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                          which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                          but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                          Jamie
                          Souscayrous

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Robin Fern�ndez-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                          >
                          > Hello everyone,
                          >
                          > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                          fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                          Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                          importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                          impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                          Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                          in the whole subject.
                          > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                          and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                          fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                          of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                          vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                          well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                          fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                          approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                          most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                          some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                          care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                          vegetable patches?
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Robin
                          > Malaga, Spain
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >


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                        • Chris Sawyer
                          If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
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                            If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores and can even be used as a soil drench.
                            Chris Sawyer
                            www.jakesfarm.com
                          • jamie
                            Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just doing what it is
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
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                              Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
                              indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
                              doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To put
                              it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think you
                              probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
                              spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your local
                              viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
                              certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper enters
                              the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
                              respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
                              more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
                              don't have the www address);

                              >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
                              Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
                              with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree of
                              solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
                              sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
                              that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
                              fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions. The
                              fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
                              in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
                              is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
                              >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime would
                              generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
                              in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
                              used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue, the
                              use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
                              >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
                              enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury to
                              the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
                              lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
                              solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
                              >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident on
                              the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
                              addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
                              copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
                              the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts on
                              fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
                              bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux. They
                              may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and postharvest
                              leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
                              in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
                              lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
                              leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If a
                              >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop occur,
                              an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application may
                              prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.


                              I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
                              area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
                              allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
                              spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier this
                              year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
                              fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
                              just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
                              much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
                              leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring or
                              even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want to
                              look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
                              will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
                              California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one also,
                              should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
                              California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look at
                              that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is called
                              to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).

                              You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
                              spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by simply
                              following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
                              through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops and
                              I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
                              keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
                              available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has in
                              Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on progress
                              and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right path.
                              Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
                              through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you will
                              have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
                              healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
                              diseases.

                              Jamie
                              Souscayrous



                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                              To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus



                              Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and
                              others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                              outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on
                              what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
                              tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
                              impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
                              land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
                              clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
                              prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn,
                              drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
                              started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to
                              grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids
                              were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
                              alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
                              happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my
                              comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
                              noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
                              hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
                              that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal
                              point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen
                              dill get decimated in this fashion.
                              We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought
                              and drought prone areas.
                              Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes
                              unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                              Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes.
                              I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive.
                              Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                              I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                              Regards,
                              Robin
                            • RobinFernández-Medina
                              Hello Jamie, Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hello Jamie,
                                Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little harsh too.
                                Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was close to 34� and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                                Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                                Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                                Robin



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                              • jamie
                                Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe that grapes
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount
                                  sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe
                                  that grapes can be grown without any spraying at all (and also immensely
                                  gladdened). The sun and the aridity I can understand, vines are impressive
                                  in their ability to withstand poor conditions, how else could they still
                                  grow in the practically dead earth around here.


                                  The Synergistic Garden Video Tape By Emilia Hazelip
                                  Las Encantadas, BP 217, F-11306 Limoux-Cedex, France
                                  Tel/Fax 33+46-83-15-111
                                  emhaz@...

                                  Whilst the initial digging of the raised beds would not appear to initially
                                  favour Natural Farming practices, the actual effect of the raised beds is to
                                  ensure the fertility of the soil and then maintain it in a wild state. You
                                  can see photos of her raised beds and veg on Jim Bones' Seedballs site
                                  (http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html) and a useful cropping plan for the
                                  raised beds over their first three seasons (though being near Malaga you'll
                                  need to develop the plan to your semi-tropical climate from its temperate
                                  perspective).


                                  Jamie
                                  Souscayrous


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                                  To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:15 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus




                                  Hello Jamie,
                                  Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all
                                  these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper
                                  sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am
                                  really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea
                                  given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled
                                  the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in
                                  erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It
                                  makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that
                                  word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of
                                  life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a
                                  result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little
                                  harsh too.
                                  Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major
                                  producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these
                                  moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was
                                  close to 34º and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am
                                  getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and
                                  every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                                  Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and
                                  learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                                  Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the
                                  Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                                  Robin



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