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Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness

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  • Rita Winfield
    I ve been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably the two most
    Message 1 of 17 , Aug 31, 2002
      I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
      intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
      the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
      those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
      mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
      religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
      Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
      Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
      ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
      reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
      Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
      incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!

      To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
      Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
      compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
      for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
      there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.

      "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE

      What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the concern
      about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
      preservatives?"

      And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
      SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence wildings
      through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
      poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
      herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating utensils.
      This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"

      marguerite
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Don Graves" <dgraves@...>
      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:27 AM
      Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees


      > From the far North to Coramandel Peninsular of the North Island in New
      > Zealand once grew ancient forests of huge forest canopy trees, Kauri
      > (Agathis australis) ... a 'pine' with cone & needles.
      > The forest soils that formed under such pines resulted in highly organic
      > soils 'Podzols' - or 'egg-shell' soils.
      > They have a 'mouth-wash-like' (phenolic) toxicity to decomposer soil
      > organisms & subsequently leaf litter accumulates with little
      > decomposition...
      > Under Pine forests these acicic & highly organic soils are ocupied by
      > mycorrhizas and suitable host plant roots
      > The pine forests can also be seen as cyclic 'fire-ecosystems', similarly
      > 'Eucalypts' (gum trees) from Australia. Fires may periodically destroy
      old
      > trees & release ashes & new seeds ... new regrowth
      >
      > A human advantage of the toxic quality the Cupressus family is ....
      > we don't have to chemically treat such timbers
      > .
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
      > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:56 PM
      > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      >
      >
      > > We wash floors with pine oil because it is antibacterial, which
      > > does also slow down the microbial action in soil & compost. Does
      > > anyone happen to know if Cypress has the same "soil disinfecting"
      > > quality?
      > >
      > > Lucky for those who are far enough to the north that Mr. B. Ewing
      > > has the very thing, beautiful web site (with a wolf link!), in the
      > > serviceable saskatoon. Serviceberries have high tolerance for "poor"
      > > soil that has low levels of natural composting. Did I miss an actual
      > > word for that to go research surfing? Our need category is named poor
      > > soil tolerators of a more southeastern U.S. clime This would be a
      > > class of plants to start enriching a do nothing plot.
      > >
      > > Our east side of the building is under two huge Leland Cypress, or
      > > is it Leylan, (the dog ate my homework). Anything we plan on growing
      > > out there must be non-toxic to curious children. We are regular
      > > callers of the poison control center number, describing the leaves,
      > > berries, once a mushroom (stomach pumping) that children suddenly
      > > decide to eat as we picnic in the meadow or walk down the hill to the
      > > river. Anything we want to plant near the school is checked there
      > > first. And, yes, we do regularly have that cautionary talk about never
      > > eating plants that were picked by children, unless the teacher asks
      > > you to pick them. The four year old ate the bite of the field
      > > mushroom, she said, "Because I'm Alice". We had just read the part
      > > about the mushroom from Alice in Wonderland.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > howard.petts@... wrote:
      > >
      > > >
      > > > Thanks again Bob. I'm starting to get the idea..
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Bob Ewing <urbanpermaculture@...> on 29/08/2002 01:39:50
      > > >
      > > > Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > > > cc:
      > > >
      > > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] pine trees
      > > >
      > > > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:13:14 +1000
      > > > From: howard.petts@...
      > > > Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-re: pine trees
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Thanks for your response Bob. Apparently its an
      > > > Austrian pine (or
      > > > European
      > > > Black Pine). In terms of the One Straw method, how
      > > > would you go about
      > > > planting (chuck a few seed balls under it and wait)?
      > > > Also, are service
      > > > berries things like blackberries, raspberries, etc?
      > > >
      > > > greetings, this site will give you info on the service
      > > > berry or saskatoon:
      > > > http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/amelanchier.html
      > > >
      > > > I am working on a site that is mostly pine and spruce
      > > > and , among other things, will be making seedballs
      > > > that contain hazelnut and servcice berry. Some will be
      > > > placed under the pine, the number of seebdalls will
      > > > depend upon the amount of ground to be covered. I use
      > > > this site http://ww.seedballs.com for info.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > =====
      > > > Bob Ewing, Permaculture Design
      > > > Ecological gardening email course
      > > > http://ca.geocities.com/urbanpermaculture/ecogarden.htm
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > _____________________________________________________________________
      > > >
      > > > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
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      > > ADVERTISEMENT
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      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
    • jamie
      Marguerite, on an email list devoted to the study, discussion and experimentation of the ideas of Masanobu Fukuoka why would philosophy (to which Fukuoka
      Message 2 of 17 , Aug 31, 2002
        Marguerite, on an email list devoted to the study, discussion and
        experimentation of the ideas of Masanobu Fukuoka why would philosophy (to
        which Fukuoka devotes much time), the Dalai Lama (a Mahayana Buddhist as is
        Fukuoka) or poetry be deemed amiss? Perhaps you have not read The One-Straw
        Revolution, please help yourself to the ecopy in the files section of this
        list and see if what Fukuoka writes regarding the above subjects begins to
        make sense agriculturally too. Having come so far, in joining this list and
        posting, don't miss the oppurtunity in acquainting yourself with his work.

        Jamie
        Souscayrous


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rita Winfield <earthangel103@...>
        To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 2:24 PM
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness


        > I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
        > intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
        > the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
        > those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
        > mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
        > religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
        > Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
        > Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
        > ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
        > reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
        > Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
        > incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!
        >
        > To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
        > Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
        > compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
        > for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
        > there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.
        >
        > "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE
        >
        > What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the
        concern
        > about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
        > preservatives?"
        >
        > And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
        > SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence
        wildings
        > through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
        > poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
        > herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating
        utensils.
        > This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"
        >
        > marguerite
      • Don Graves
        The fact is we humans know very few FACTS about how plants & soil fungi interact together ecologically.... I make no appologies for having an M.Sc. in plant
        Message 3 of 17 , Aug 31, 2002
          The fact is we humans know very few 'FACTS' about how plants & soil fungi
          interact together ecologically....
          I make no appologies for having an M.Sc. in plant biology
          or using some jargon or specialised scientific termilogy like 'mycorrhizas',
          'podzol' (egg-shell) soils or plant 'common' & Latin / 'Linean'
          classification plant names), te Reo Maori (the Maori Language), eg. Kauri &
          'Agathis australis'
          GET REAL dude, ... what is this the 'word-police'??
          I'm not by choice being 'esoteric'
          (meaning making information only understandable for a 'select' few' ...
          like priests reading a 'Mass' ritual in the Latin language)
          I aim to be 'exoteric', meaning known to those listening & understanding on
          the outside,
          ...as in the term 'exoskeleton' of insects & crayfish meaning 'outer-' or
          'external-skeleton'

          Below I have pasted in a recent Nelson EcoFest pamphlet / poster / talk & I
          have many many other REFERENCES to offer in DISCUSSIONS re 'mycorrhizas'
          (SOIL- & ROOT-FUNGI)
          ... & SOIL DISTURBANCES by:
          conventional tillage practices by plough & rotary hoeing soils

          ... compared to 'no-dig' & 'conservation tillage' methods that DO NOT 'turn
          over' the surface / topsoil layers (horizons).

          ... & reported / published effects on mycorrhizas & crop plant & soil
          nutrition re
          'groundcover' / 'cover-crop'/ 'green-manure' rotations of the 'Brassica'
          plant family -
          (egs. cabbage / brocolli / cauliflower / mustard / Canola)

          Mycorrhizal Symbiosis





          Don Graves

          M.Sc. (Plant Biology), Institute of Molecular BioSciences,

          Massey University, Palmerston North

          ph: 03 539 1417 Nelson, dgraves@...



          What are Mycorrhizal Symbioses?

          (*mutually beneficial partnerships of soil-fungi & plant roots)



          How common are Mycorrhizas?



          Most crop & weed plant roots are hosts of mutually beneficial nutrient
          exchanges with mycorrhizal soil fungi

          About 90% of all plant species examined can form a mycorrhizal symbiosis

          Brassicas, Beets, Lupins & Buckwheat roots do not host mycorrhizal fungi



          How long have mycorrhizas been living with plant roots & soils?



          Zygomycete fungi, about 450 million years ago, when descendants of aquatic
          algae first began colonizing drier land soils, [aka Arbuscular - & endo -
          mycorrhizas]



          Later . Basidiomycete & Ascomycete fungi coevolved Ecto- & Ericaeous
          mycorrhizas with long lived, taller, stronger woody plants in more organic
          top soils

          What disrupts mycorrhizal populations?



          Physical disturbances by erosion or conventional tillage (ie. "turning over"
          or "huri poki" of soil by digging, plough or rotary hoe)

          Vegetation clearance

          Non-host crop plant rotations, eg. Brassicas

          Seasonal temperature & light related supplies of plant photosynthates
          (energy)

          How to re-introduce mycorrhizal soil fungi & plant seedlings

          Transplants of mycorrhizal inhabited seedlings from healthy soils

          Soil seedbed inoculation by prudential placement of a healthy soil
          surrounding seeds

          Seedballs - compost or topsoil & clay pelletized seeds

          How to save money sustaining networks of mycorrhizal fungi

          Surround seeds & seedling roots with fresh & locally derived healthy
          mycorrhizal soil-fungi

          No-dig no-weed reduces physical disturbances of networks of soil fungi.

          No-dig reduces seedbed 'tillage' time & energy costs

          Minimised need to use soluble or rock Phosphate minerals



          References

          Sally Smith & David Read (1997) Mycorrhizal Symbiosis (2nd Edn), Academic
          Press, Harcourt Brace & Co. Publishers, London

          Mark Brundrett, Neale Bougher, Bernie Dell, Tim Grove and Nick Malajczuk
          Working with Mycorrhizas in Agriculture & Forestry (1996) Australian Centre
          for Agricultural Research, http://www.ffp.csiro.au/research/mycorrhiza/

          http://mycorrhiza.ag.utk.edu/ Mycorrhiza Information Exchange & Directory of
          Mycorrhizologists

          http://www.mycorrhizas.org/ International Mycorrhiza Society

          http://www.waite.adelaide.edu.au/Soil_Water/mycor.html# University of
          Adelaide Mycorrhiza Research Group, Australia
          http://www.waite.adelaide.edu.au/Soil_Water/3icom.html Third International
          Conference on Mycorrhizas ICOM3, 8-13 July 2001

          http://www.uoguelph.ca/botany/rootlab/ Root Biology & Mycorrhiza Research
          Group, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada

          http://www.congresbcu.com/icom4/ Fourth International Conference on
          Mycorrhizae ICOM4, August 10-15, 2003, Montreal, Canada.

          Seedballs: http://homepages.paradise.net.nz/sces/seedballnz/ &
          http://fc.meca.edu/~lmolyneaux/index.html





          PEACE TO ALL














          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Rita Winfield" <earthangel103@...>
          To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, September 01, 2002 12:24 AM
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness


          > I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
          > intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
          > the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
          > those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
          > mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
          > religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
          > Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
          > Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
          > ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
          > reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
          > Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
          > incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!
          >
          > To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
          > Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
          > compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
          > for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
          > there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.
          >
          > "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE
          >
          > What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the
          concern
          > about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
          > preservatives?"
          >
          > And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
          > SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence
          wildings
          > through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
          > poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
          > herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating
          utensils.
          > This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"
          >
          > marguerite
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Don Graves" <dgraves@...>
          > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:27 AM
          > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
          >
          >
          > > From the far North to Coramandel Peninsular of the North Island in New
          > > Zealand once grew ancient forests of huge forest canopy trees, Kauri
          > > (Agathis australis) ... a 'pine' with cone & needles.
          > > The forest soils that formed under such pines resulted in highly organic
          > > soils 'Podzols' - or 'egg-shell' soils.
          > > They have a 'mouth-wash-like' (phenolic) toxicity to decomposer soil
          > > organisms & subsequently leaf litter accumulates with little
          > > decomposition...
          > > Under Pine forests these acicic & highly organic soils are ocupied by
          > > mycorrhizas and suitable host plant roots
          > > The pine forests can also be seen as cyclic 'fire-ecosystems', similarly
          > > 'Eucalypts' (gum trees) from Australia. Fires may periodically destroy
          > old
          > > trees & release ashes & new seeds ... new regrowth
          > >
          > > A human advantage of the toxic quality the Cupressus family is ....
          > > we don't have to chemically treat such timbers
          > > .
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
          > > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          > > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:56 PM
          > > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
          > >
          > >
          > > > We wash floors with pine oil because it is antibacterial, which
          > > > does also slow down the microbial action in soil & compost. Does
          > > > anyone happen to know if Cypress has the same "soil disinfecting"
          > > > quality?
          > > >
          > > > Lucky for those who are far enough to the north that Mr. B. Ewing
          > > > has the very thing, beautiful web site (with a wolf link!), in the
          > > > serviceable saskatoon. Serviceberries have high tolerance for "poor"
          > > > soil that has low levels of natural composting. Did I miss an actual
          > > > word for that to go research surfing? Our need category is named poor
          > > > soil tolerators of a more southeastern U.S. clime This would be a
          > > > class of plants to start enriching a do nothing plot.
          > > >
          > > > Our east side of the building is under two huge Leland Cypress, or
          > > > is it Leylan, (the dog ate my homework). Anything we plan on growing
          > > > out there must be non-toxic to curious children. We are regular
          > > > callers of the poison control center number, describing the leaves,
          > > > berries, once a mushroom (stomach pumping) that children suddenly
          > > > decide to eat as we picnic in the meadow or walk down the hill to the
          > > > river. Anything we want to plant near the school is checked there
          > > > first. And, yes, we do regularly have that cautionary talk about never
          > > > eating plants that were picked by children, unless the teacher asks
          > > > you to pick them. The four year old ate the bite of the field
          > > > mushroom, she said, "Because I'm Alice". We had just read the part
          > > > about the mushroom from Alice in Wonderland.
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > howard.petts@... wrote:
          > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks again Bob. I'm starting to get the idea..
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Bob Ewing <urbanpermaculture@...> on 29/08/2002 01:39:50
          > > > >
          > > > > Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >
          > > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          > > > > cc:
          > > > >
          > > > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] pine trees
          > > > >
          > > > > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:13:14 +1000
          > > > > From: howard.petts@...
          > > > > Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-re: pine trees
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > Thanks for your response Bob. Apparently its an
          > > > > Austrian pine (or
          > > > > European
          > > > > Black Pine). In terms of the One Straw method, how
          > > > > would you go about
          > > > > planting (chuck a few seed balls under it and wait)?
          > > > > Also, are service
          > > > > berries things like blackberries, raspberries, etc?
          > > > >
          > > > > greetings, this site will give you info on the service
          > > > > berry or saskatoon:
          > > > > http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/amelanchier.html
          > > > >
          > > > > I am working on a site that is mostly pine and spruce
          > > > > and , among other things, will be making seedballs
          > > > > that contain hazelnut and servcice berry. Some will be
          > > > > placed under the pine, the number of seebdalls will
          > > > > depend upon the amount of ground to be covered. I use
          > > > > this site http://ww.seedballs.com for info.
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > =====
          > > > > Bob Ewing, Permaculture Design
          > > > > Ecological gardening email course
          > > > > http://ca.geocities.com/urbanpermaculture/ecogarden.htm
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > >
          _____________________________________________________________________
          > > > >
          > > > > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
          > > > >
          > > > >
          > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > > > >
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          > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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          > > >
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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          > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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          > >
          > >
          > >
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          > >
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          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
        • JEREMY MARR
          Hey Rita, Look before you leap, think outside the box... and other such tired clichés. These ARE the facts as we know them because they are being discovered
          Message 4 of 17 , Sep 1, 2002
            Hey Rita,

            Look before you leap, think outside the box... and other such tired clichés. These ARE the facts as we know them because they are being discovered as we go along. Stop taking yourself out of the picture, measuring everything in a objective manner, there is no objectivity in nature, only the subjective view. We are all in it, even though most people want to pave it over.
            There are subtleties in this that can not be expressed that well with language, so we get the ideas across in whatever metaphor will work. If you are unhappy with the metaphor, use your own. But please don't judge others' out loud, we are all working towards the same goals here.
            It is commendable that you realize how important this is and I hope that you can find the patience needed to help make this wise man's ideas work for everyone (If you haven't read One Straw Revolution yet, please do). It is by nature a slow and conservative process if you want it to work. The way things are now are a result of moving too fast.
            And you're right. I don't think people are cattle either. They are much more like sheep.

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Rita Winfield
            Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 8:36 AM
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Just an observation on pretentiousness

            I've been trying to follow this discussion for awhile and would like to
            intrude a comment. Sustainable agriculture and permaculture are probably
            the two most urgent needs of today's ecosystem. When I read anything on
            those two areas, it sounds like a meeting of druids, of philosophers, of
            mysticism deserving of the Dalai Lama, poets tuning up, it is almost a
            religion. By doing this self-serving ego stroking, you are Obscuring The
            Information that users need to just DO IT. Try to control your poetic and
            Olympian impulses and learn to express the instructions and ideas in PLAIN
            ENGLISH. I can just see the expression on the face of a Texas farmer
            reading this escapement from a Biology thesis with scene setting from
            Beowulf, although he may in fact have the Very Principles of the Plan
            incorporated on his operation on a daily basis. Seedballs my rear end!

            To quote from the old TV show Dragnet, "The facts, ma'am, just the facts!"
            Jargonism and insider talk, in fact, is what kept computer research,
            compatibility and standardization in the dark ages of proprietary thought
            for so long. Whatever you need a paragraph, a treatise, to say, I'll bet
            there are Three Plain English Words that will convey.

            "This is the forest primeval" below PULEEZE

            What is wrong with saying "Nature has provided an alternate for the concern
            about arsenic in treated wood by giving us long life trees with natural
            preservatives?"

            And if I hear the word GRAZE as applied to human beings again, I will
            SCREAM! Humans are not cattle. We identify with our intelligence wildings
            through careful taxanomic information to make sure they are not similar
            poisonous plants. Then we cook them and eat them in a refined way with
            herbs and other good seasonings, hopefully with good sturdy eating utensils.
            This entire body of study needs to "get a grip!"

            marguerite
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Don Graves" <dgraves@...>
            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 3:27 AM
            Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees


            > From the far North to Coramandel Peninsular of the North Island in New
            > Zealand once grew ancient forests of huge forest canopy trees, Kauri
            > (Agathis australis) ... a 'pine' with cone & needles.
            > The forest soils that formed under such pines resulted in highly organic
            > soils 'Podzols' - or 'egg-shell' soils.
            > They have a 'mouth-wash-like' (phenolic) toxicity to decomposer soil
            > organisms & subsequently leaf litter accumulates with little
            > decomposition...
            > Under Pine forests these acicic & highly organic soils are ocupied by
            > mycorrhizas and suitable host plant roots
            > The pine forests can also be seen as cyclic 'fire-ecosystems', similarly
            > 'Eucalypts' (gum trees) from Australia. Fires may periodically destroy
            old
            > trees & release ashes & new seeds ... new regrowth
            >
            > A human advantage of the toxic quality the Cupressus family is ....
            > we don't have to chemically treat such timbers
            > .
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Robin, Maya, or Napi" <seafloorgarden@...>
            > To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 6:56 PM
            > Subject: Re: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-[fukuoka_farming] pine trees
            >
            >
            > > We wash floors with pine oil because it is antibacterial, which
            > > does also slow down the microbial action in soil & compost. Does
            > > anyone happen to know if Cypress has the same "soil disinfecting"
            > > quality?
            > >
            > > Lucky for those who are far enough to the north that Mr. B. Ewing
            > > has the very thing, beautiful web site (with a wolf link!), in the
            > > serviceable saskatoon. Serviceberries have high tolerance for "poor"
            > > soil that has low levels of natural composting. Did I miss an actual
            > > word for that to go research surfing? Our need category is named poor
            > > soil tolerators of a more southeastern U.S. clime This would be a
            > > class of plants to start enriching a do nothing plot.
            > >
            > > Our east side of the building is under two huge Leland Cypress, or
            > > is it Leylan, (the dog ate my homework). Anything we plan on growing
            > > out there must be non-toxic to curious children. We are regular
            > > callers of the poison control center number, describing the leaves,
            > > berries, once a mushroom (stomach pumping) that children suddenly
            > > decide to eat as we picnic in the meadow or walk down the hill to the
            > > river. Anything we want to plant near the school is checked there
            > > first. And, yes, we do regularly have that cautionary talk about never
            > > eating plants that were picked by children, unless the teacher asks
            > > you to pick them. The four year old ate the bite of the field
            > > mushroom, she said, "Because I'm Alice". We had just read the part
            > > about the mushroom from Alice in Wonderland.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > howard.petts@... wrote:
            > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks again Bob. I'm starting to get the idea..
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Bob Ewing <urbanpermaculture@...> on 29/08/2002 01:39:50
            > > >
            > > > Please respond to fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > > >
            > > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > > > cc:
            > > >
            > > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] pine trees
            > > >
            > > > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 09:13:14 +1000
            > > > From: howard.petts@...
            > > > Subject: SEC: UNCLASSIFIED:-re: pine trees
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Thanks for your response Bob. Apparently its an
            > > > Austrian pine (or
            > > > European
            > > > Black Pine). In terms of the One Straw method, how
            > > > would you go about
            > > > planting (chuck a few seed balls under it and wait)?
            > > > Also, are service
            > > > berries things like blackberries, raspberries, etc?
            > > >
            > > > greetings, this site will give you info on the service
            > > > berry or saskatoon:
            > > > http://www.rook.org/earl/bwca/nature/shrubs/amelanchier.html
            > > >
            > > > I am working on a site that is mostly pine and spruce
            > > > and , among other things, will be making seedballs
            > > > that contain hazelnut and servcice berry. Some will be
            > > > placed under the pine, the number of seebdalls will
            > > > depend upon the amount of ground to be covered. I use
            > > > this site http://ww.seedballs.com for info.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > =====
            > > > Bob Ewing, Permaculture Design
            > > > Ecological gardening email course
            > > > http://ca.geocities.com/urbanpermaculture/ecogarden.htm
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > _____________________________________________________________________
            > > >
            > > > Post your ad for free now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          • RobinFern�ndez-Medina
            Hello everyone, It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
            Message 5 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
              Hello everyone,

              It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
              Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?

              Regards,

              Robin
              Malaga, Spain



              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Don Graves
              Hi Robin Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing... this is in part because there are a significant numbers of parasitic fungi, &
              Message 6 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                Hi Robin
                Fungi & plants are commonly generally regarded as not a good thing...
                this is in part because there are a significant numbers of 'parasitic'
                fungi, & 'pathogenic' (disease-causing) fungi associated with poor plant
                health , reduced vigour, poor harvest yields & storage

                There are also many many fungi involved in 'rotting' / 'decomposing' or
                'saprotrophic' fungi.
                There are some decomposing fungi that may also be capable of forming
                beneficial symbioses with woody plants

                However, ... the co-evolutionary plant advantages of endo-mycorrhizas may be
                presumed to have been ever since plants first began colonising relatively
                droughted dryland soils (~450 Million years ago)
                [ie
                improved drought tolerance
                increased plant availability of soil nutrients (eg. Phosphate & Zinc)
                in exchange for plant derived energy deposited into soil fung & other soil
                organisms;
                ... additionally soil-aggregation is promoted by mycorrhizal soil-hyphae
                with a so-called 'sticky-stringbag effect" caused by a combination of
                physical enmeshment of soil by fungal hyphae, and fungal exudates 'glomalin'
                glueing / binding soil into micro- & macro-aggregates (& thus helping soil
                drainage & aeration)

                The best prevention of plant fungal root diseases is to get clean-stored
                seeds started & inoculated (inhabited) with healthy biologically diverse
                soil micro-organisms. A root occupied with a 'beneficial' mycorrhizal
                fungus may thus physically displace the possibilty of further root
                infections by other soil fungi, including pathogens.

                Stored seeds can also be briefly soaked in a weak solution of a common
                bleach (eg. sodium-hyperchlorite)

                Plants may also have a reaction to being inhabited by fungi, a so-called
                'PR' or 'Pathogenesis Response', that may deminish the chances of further
                fungi inhabiting that plant.

                hope this helps
                regards
                Don
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Robin Fernández-Medina" <flyingdebris1@...>
                To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 8:56 PM
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                >
                > Hello everyone,
                >
                > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                in the whole subject.
                > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                vegetable patches?
                >
                > Regards,
                >
                > Robin
                > Malaga, Spain
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
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                > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
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                >
                >
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              • Allan Balliett
                Robin - Check out Elaine Ingham s Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying of
                Message 7 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                  Robin -

                  Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at http://www.sfi.com


                  Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
                  of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.

                  What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
                  and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
                  The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
                  this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
                  brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
                  harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
                  predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
                  or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
                  the soil that plants evolved in actually had.

                  It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.

                  For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
                  speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
                  Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com

                  Ask me if you want to know more

                  -Allan
                • gate44o
                  First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as it appears the
                  Message 8 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                    First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
                    worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
                    it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
                    according to my nose.

                    However, I imagine that sophisticated techniques can be used to
                    minimize the smell problem from decomposition.

                    Regardless, such methods are not quite as simple as Fukuoka managed to
                    move towards and if you have time, you can content yourself with
                    watching the effects of the fungus over time and learn what it is
                    telling you. Plant a different type of vegetable. Harvest and replant
                    seed from the plants that did the best against the fungus.

                    I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
                    plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.

                    Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
                    severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
                    days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
                    though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
                    down to the stem will definitely help.

                    What crops are the most affected in your climate?

                    Leland

                    --- In fukuoka_farming@y..., Robin "Fernández-Medina"
                    <flyingdebris1@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello everyone,
                    >
                    > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                    fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets
                    in Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on
                    the importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I
                    got the impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful
                    chanterrelle and Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are
                    enough to get you interested in the whole subject.
                    > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming
                    method, and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the
                    prescence of fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always
                    have been one to think of leaving all the insects do their thing and
                    if they wasnt to eat my vegetables to do so until something or other
                    brings them into balance...as well as interplanting other plants and
                    such to control the spread. However, fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to
                    use that word) in my Natural farming approach. I see it just decimate
                    so many of my plants and trees even though, most of the time it doesnt
                    kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and some strains seem to be
                    able to leap from one plant to the other without a care of type or
                    size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my vegetable patches?
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    >
                    > Robin
                    > Malaga, Spain
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • jamie
                    Hello Robin, I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land you re growing
                    Message 9 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                      Hello Robin,
                      I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                      of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                      you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                      I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                      with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                      I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                      I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                      appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                      (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                      this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                      which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                      but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                      Jamie
                      Souscayrous

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                      >
                      > Hello everyone,
                      >
                      > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                      fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                      Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                      importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                      impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                      Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                      in the whole subject.
                      > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                      and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                      fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                      of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                      vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                      well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                      fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                      approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                      most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                      some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                      care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                      vegetable patches?
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      >
                      > Robin
                      > Malaga, Spain
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                    • Allan Balliett
                      Robin, Leland, et al - I m a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I ve established 3 major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                      Message 10 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                        Robin, Leland, et al -

                        I'm a biological farmer in northern virginia, usa. I've established 3
                        major gardens and am currently serving as head gardener for a 167
                        member biodynamic CSA. I'm only saying this to point out that I spend
                        a lot of time with crop plants and have been doing so for years.

                        This season we have a drought. Fungus attacks were horrible, just the
                        same. Fungus does thrive where there is a lack of circulation, but
                        fungus does not need damp, moist, soil conditions to attack fruit or
                        leaves.

                        It's really important for growers who hope to address hunger issues
                        to be aware of the toll that undiagnosed fungus takes on the energy
                        and ultimate productivity of their crop plants. Until you garden is
                        totally balanced and your fertility levels balanced and high, fungus
                        can be a problem (depending on crop, variety and location.) It is
                        important to have a program of fungus control in place before you
                        even notice the fungus.

                        In biodynamics we use a tea made of horse tail to 'prevent' fungal outbreaks.

                        I'm not saying this to push biodynamics. I'm saying this because
                        there are tools in each of the essence gardening schools that can be
                        used to advantage by all the essence gardening schools. Horse Tail
                        tea is one of those useful tools.

                        Check out Howard Shapiro's GARDENING for the FUTURE of the EARTH
                        book. Howard was an actual student of Fukuoka. He wrote this book to
                        show how 'specialization,' e.g. following Steiner, Mollison or
                        Fukuoka to rigidly can delay attaining our true aims. In my case,
                        that would be growing the most highly nutritious food possible for as
                        many people as possible for as little money as possible.

                        -Allan


                        >I have seen that fungus thrives in wet unweeded areas beneath food
                        >plants and moves onto the food plants when it gets its chance.
                        >
                        >Further I have noticed that a small amount of weeding underneath
                        >severely effected crops can arrest the fungus especially given sunny
                        >days. It is difficult to stop fungus spread during rainy periods
                        >though keeping the crops as airy and exposed to sunlight all the way
                        >down to the stem will definitely help.
                        >
                        >What crops are the most affected in your climate?
                        >
                        >Leland
                      • Allan Balliett
                        ... Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice earthy smell, like
                        Message 11 of 17 , Sep 2, 2002
                          >
                          >First off, I have been using simple compost teas and they have clearly
                          >worked well but smell terrible. Thus I will phase out of using them as
                          >it appears the smell is meant to be in the ground and not in the air,
                          >according to my nose.

                          Bad smells from compost or compost teas are first warning signs that
                          something is wrong with the compost or the tea. You want a nice
                          earthy smell, like leaf mulch in a healthy woods.

                          NEVER NEVER NEVER apply bad smelling compost tea to crops!!

                          Manure and herb teas are a different story. Some of the bad smells
                          indicate that the nitrogen is freed up and they are excellent at that
                          point to apply, diluted, to root zones.
                        • Don Graves
                          Hi Allan ... I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this Thurdsay Aug 5th In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza
                          Message 12 of 17 , Sep 3, 2002
                            Hi Allan ...
                            I am hopefully meeting Dr Elaine Ingham in Blenheim New Zealand ... this
                            Thurdsay Aug 5th

                            In my relatively short experience with mycorrhiza research & organic
                            research, my observation
                            is that both are mostly about (PROCESSes) = (understanding & maintaining
                            soils & mycorrhizas)

                            Mycorrhizas & Organics research attract very poor levels of scientific or
                            technology research funding ...
                            providing few REMEDIAL MYCORRHIZA ( PRODUCTS )
                            aeroponic AM fungal spores
                            seed-balls
                            soil attached to fresh weed or crop roots from biologically diverse soils
                            eg. under pasture / lawn (undisturbed)

                            for use mainly in degraded & nutrient-'poor' soils

                            ie. research without 'product development'
                            = R without D
                            R&D are almost bound togther
                            more is the pity for the sake of planet Earth - (Gaea)

                            there are very few mychorrhiza inoculation technologies
                            & thus few 'development' opportunities for 'middle'-people to manufacture &
                            sell nutrient & crop-protection products to so-called 'producers' or growers

                            he she we ge can sense what was inherited free
                            GAEA's soil is alive, Earth lives!


                            we can manaaki (take care of) our whenua (land)
                            treat vegetation like a korowai (cloak)
                            or a living green skin
                            mulch & (suitable) plants protect against bare soil surfaces ... thus
                            reduce soil exposure to drying, & minimise wind & water erosion
                            however, ... compared to bare soil surfaces, shaded soil surfaces under
                            mulches / plants are slower to heat up at the beginning of Spring
                            here & now in Nelson, southern-hemisphere South-Pacific Aotearoa (New
                            Zealand) the Magnolia trees are in full spring bloom ... & life is truly
                            great..

                            There is more to wonder about
                            than we can ever learn,
                            ... awesome eh!



                            appolls for any philosophy & poetry
                            try my mycological (fungal) regards
                            Don





                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Allan Balliett" <igg@...>
                            To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 11:53 PM
                            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                            > Robin -
                            >
                            > Check out Elaine Ingham's Soil Foodweb work. I think its at
                            http://www.sfi.com
                            >
                            >
                            > Elain is the academic who has been studying the making and applying
                            > of hi-diversity compost teas to cultivated plants and garden soils.
                            >
                            > What she's doing, basically, is taking the highest quality compost
                            > and perculating it to remove the micro life from the physical matter.
                            > The water she does this in is high in appropriate nutrients, so, in
                            > this highly oxigenated media, they breed like crazy. the resulting
                            > brew is either sprayed on plants to control the colonization of
                            > harmful fungi (by applying beneficial fungi - and good compost is
                            > predominately beneficial organisms - which out-colonize the bad ones)
                            > or by pouring it on the soil, trying to re-create the lush diversity
                            > the soil that plants evolved in actually had.
                            >
                            > It's a great subject. It's more work, but it's very natural.
                            >
                            > For those on the East Coast - Elaine (and many others) will be
                            > speaking at my biodynamic conference on Oct 4-6 outside of
                            > Washington, DC http://www.gardneingforthefuture.com
                            >
                            > Ask me if you want to know more
                            >
                            > -Allan
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • RobinFernández-Medina
                            Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                            Message 13 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                              Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn, drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen dill get decimated in this fashion.
                              We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought and drought prone areas.
                              Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                              Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes. I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive. Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                              I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                              Regards,
                              Robin
                              jamie wrote:Hello Robin,
                              I can only imagine your problem is literally growing out
                              of a previous imbalance that has not yet righted itself. What was the land
                              you're growing your vegetables on used for previously?
                              I've been using a deep mulch for my veg this year instead of watering
                              with no fungal problems (I'm just over the border in France from Barcelona).
                              I cleared much brushwood last winter and have used this as part of my mulch.
                              I noted when spreading it early this year that although we'd had no
                              appreciable rainfall over the winter there was still white rot
                              (basidiomycetes) invading the twigs and leaves. It might be such an approach
                              this autumn/winter might help you by introducing a competing fungus for that
                              which is causing your problem - another form of innoculation of the soil,
                              but if you have the brushwood it might help.

                              Jamie
                              Souscayrous

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Robin Fern�ndez-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                              To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:56 AM
                              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus


                              >
                              > Hello everyone,
                              >
                              > It was nice to read you last email Don Graves. I find Mychorizea a
                              fascinating subject. I had the opportunity to Study with Paul Stamets in
                              Washington State a few years ago. I learnt a tremendous amount on the
                              importance of Fungus in the Ecosystem. In fact, so much so, that I got the
                              impression that no fungus, no ecosystem. The beautiful chanterrelle and
                              Bollete are two examples of Mychorizea that are enough to get you interested
                              in the whole subject.
                              > Now that I am on the subject, I find that in the Natural farming method,
                              and doing my best to follow the "do nothing approach", the prescence of
                              fungus takes a leading role in plant deaths. I always have been one to think
                              of leaving all the insects do their thing and if they wasnt to eat my
                              vegetables to do so until something or other brings them into balance...as
                              well as interplanting other plants and such to control the spread. However,
                              fungus is my biggest "pest" ( to use that word) in my Natural farming
                              approach. I see it just decimate so many of my plants and trees even though,
                              most of the time it doesnt kill its hosts. Fungus are very prolific, and
                              some strains seem to be able to leap from one plant to the other without a
                              care of type or size. Is there a way at minimizing their impact on my
                              vegetable patches?
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              >
                              > Robin
                              > Malaga, Spain
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
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                            • Chris Sawyer
                              If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores
                              Message 14 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                                If you want to clean up the spores, try using a product called Zerotol. It is OMRI approved for certified organic operations. It works by oxidizing the spores and can even be used as a soil drench.
                                Chris Sawyer
                                www.jakesfarm.com
                              • jamie
                                Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just doing what it is
                                Message 15 of 17 , Sep 4, 2002
                                  Hello again Robin, I find it useful to consider fungal problems as
                                  indicating a general problem in the health of my plants, the fungus just
                                  doing what it is supposed to do, decompose dying or unhealthy plants. To put
                                  it more simply it's not the fungus that is the problem. But then I think you
                                  probably know this already. But thinking like this will help you avoid
                                  spraying your veg with the copper sulphate that I'm sure is what your local
                                  viticulters are spraying on their crops. It does indeed work well against
                                  certain fungal and bacterial attacks such as mildew, however, copper enters
                                  the soil and then remains there, as the concentration increases through
                                  respraying it reaches a level of toxicity toward earthworms. Here is some
                                  more information on copper compounds and their effects on plants (sorry I
                                  don't have the www address);

                                  >copper compounds. Copper is a foliar fungicide with protective action.
                                  Copper compounds can be highly toxic to many fruit crops and must be used
                                  with extreme care. Copper >sulfate is soluble in water. This high degree of
                                  solubility is the fundamental cause of toxicity problems, which copper
                                  sulfate can cause to all fruit crops. Fixed coppers have been >developed
                                  that are relatively insoluble and therefore less toxic to plants. However,
                                  fixed coppers can also result in phytotoxicity under certain conditions. The
                                  fungicidal activity of >copper is based on its ability to destroy proteins
                                  in plants. This is true for all plants, fungi, and fruit plants. When lime
                                  is combined with copper compounds, it reacts with the copper
                                  >making it more stable. Thus, copper compounds in the presence of lime would
                                  generally produce lower, more uniform concentrations of free copper, which
                                  in turn would be less apt >to injure plant tissues than if no lime were
                                  used. Because copper has the ability to kill all types of plant tissue, the
                                  use of copper fungicides carries with it the risk of causing injury to
                                  >fruit plants. Ideally, copper on the leaf or fruit surface should be high
                                  enough to kill the fungus or bacteria but low enough not to cause injury to
                                  the plant. Factors that can promote >injury include: failure to use enough
                                  lime; cold, wet weather conditions that apparently increase copper's
                                  solubility, allowing more into the plant and resulting in toxicity; and
                                  >application of excessive rates of copper. Even when no injury is evident on
                                  the plant, subtle effects of the copper on the plant may be occurring. In
                                  addition, to reduce growth and >yields, it has been shown that the use of
                                  copper fungicides can reduce the maturity of the fruit as well as that of
                                  the shoots. Copper fungicides can have subtle, chronic negative >impacts on
                                  fruit plants. Copper provides low to moderate control of many fungal and
                                  bacterial diseases. Fixed coppers, plus lime, are safer than Bordeaux. They
                                  may be used for >leaf curl control on stone fruits and pre- and postharvest
                                  leaf spot control on tart cherries. Copper compounds should not be applied
                                  in a postharvest spray without adding lime. If >copper is applied without
                                  lime, orchards will show toxicity symptoms such as chlorosis (yellowing),
                                  leaf drop on tart cherries, and necrosis (browning) on sweet cherries. If a
                                  >copper material is applied without lime and yellowing and leaf drop occur,
                                  an application of lime within 2 to 3 weeks after the copper application may
                                  prevent further yellowing and >leaf drop.


                                  I've used cardboard also this year to inhibit the growth of plants in an
                                  area I'm now preparing for winter veg. It has certainly worked well,
                                  allowing minimal 'weeding' before I seed the surface with things like
                                  spinach, chicory, lettuce etc. I declined the offer of manure earlier this
                                  year after it being suggested by Emilia that the best way to improve the
                                  fertility of the soil and keep it in balance was by simply using plants,
                                  just as happens in nature. I'd think you might very well be able to plant
                                  much of your land this winter with a cover crop that you could scythe and
                                  leave as a green mulch on the surface when you plant your veg next spring or
                                  even interplant amongst a cover crop such as white clover. You might want to
                                  look at http://www.sare.org/handbook/mccp2/index.htm for a cover crop that
                                  will suit your climate which, I suspect, is very similar to Southern
                                  California in this cover crop database (I've just remembered this one also,
                                  should just be what your looking for as it's aimed specifically at
                                  California http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/cgi-bin/ccrop.exe). Have a look at
                                  that earlier discussion on this list (from message 330 the thread is called
                                  to souscayrous, emilia and all and then Soil Amendments).

                                  You seem to be taking a patient approach to your land so rather than go in
                                  spraying, see if you can't ameliorate the worst of your conditions by simply
                                  following nature's lead by rebuilding the natural fertility of your soil
                                  through plants. I'm about to build some raised beds for next years crops and
                                  I intend planting the beds this winter with cover crops to stop erosion,
                                  keep the soil loose, feed the soil microorganisms and build up plant
                                  available nutrients. Why not order Emilia's video (which I'm sure she has in
                                  Spanish and I know she has in English) and we can compare notes on progress
                                  and keep in contact with Emilia via this group to keep us on the right path.
                                  Whilst the beds take a little work to build and there is some weeding
                                  through the first couple of season's, once the beds are established you will
                                  have the soil in as natural and 'wild' a state as is possible and thus a
                                  healthy soil that produces nutritious crops that come to resist pests and
                                  diseases.

                                  Jamie
                                  Souscayrous



                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                                  To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 04, 2002 11:10 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus



                                  Thanks to all those responses on the issue of Fungus. I agree with Jamie and
                                  others on the result of an imbalanced ecosystem being conducive to fungal
                                  outbreaks. The land I am currently mulching and cultivating on was and is on
                                  what has always been an olive tree orchard and almond trees. Both dry
                                  tolerant. I know the old owner was using foliar sprays and this must have
                                  impacted the surroundings in ways I can only dread. Since we purchased the
                                  land two years ago we have done nothing in the line of fertilizing or
                                  clearing or anything out of choice to see what direction things took. The
                                  prescence of certain weeds indicated patches of poor soil, and the sun burn,
                                  drought, salting and mineral deficiency look was apparent. Last year we
                                  started laying cardboard and manures down on the areas we were preparing to
                                  grow veggies in the future (which turned out to be this summer). The aphids
                                  were all over in the beginnig and they thinned out to manageable levels
                                  alone, but it took a long time to see ladybugs so I am not sure what
                                  happened there. The plants showed deficiencies and the latest (which was my
                                  comment on fungus) was the spread of leaf rot and just plants dying and
                                  noticing that the fungus were clearly invading. I try to limit my watering
                                  hours and always in summer wet the soil and not the leaves. I am thinking
                                  that perhaps the close by piles of fresh grass clippings has been the focal
                                  point of this invasion. Not sure but a hunch. Its the first time I have seen
                                  dill get decimated in this fashion.
                                  We have a very dry climate here during our summer months. Borderline drought
                                  and drought prone areas.
                                  Either way, I really am just standing by and watcing how all these processes
                                  unfold during these years as the land continues to go untouched.
                                  Here on the grape vines we use a blue dust that suppreses rot on the grapes.
                                  I dont know what its called but the farmers tell me that it is innofensive.
                                  Is this so? Can I apply it to the area under fungal attacks as a solution?
                                  I would be intereseted to hear of your comments.
                                  Regards,
                                  Robin
                                • RobinFernández-Medina
                                  Hello Jamie, Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                                    Hello Jamie,
                                    Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little harsh too.
                                    Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was close to 34� and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                                    Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                                    Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                                    Robin



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                                  • jamie
                                    Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe that grapes
                                    Message 17 of 17 , Sep 5, 2002
                                      Hello Robin, living in the heartland of the vine and seeing the amount
                                      sprayed on the vines here (vinifera not raisin) I find it hard to believe
                                      that grapes can be grown without any spraying at all (and also immensely
                                      gladdened). The sun and the aridity I can understand, vines are impressive
                                      in their ability to withstand poor conditions, how else could they still
                                      grow in the practically dead earth around here.


                                      The Synergistic Garden Video Tape By Emilia Hazelip
                                      Las Encantadas, BP 217, F-11306 Limoux-Cedex, France
                                      Tel/Fax 33+46-83-15-111
                                      emhaz@...

                                      Whilst the initial digging of the raised beds would not appear to initially
                                      favour Natural Farming practices, the actual effect of the raised beds is to
                                      ensure the fertility of the soil and then maintain it in a wild state. You
                                      can see photos of her raised beds and veg on Jim Bones' Seedballs site
                                      (http://www.seedballs.com/hazelip.html) and a useful cropping plan for the
                                      raised beds over their first three seasons (though being near Malaga you'll
                                      need to develop the plan to your semi-tropical climate from its temperate
                                      perspective).


                                      Jamie
                                      Souscayrous


                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Robin Fernández-Medina <flyingdebris1@...>
                                      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Thursday, September 05, 2002 12:15 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] On Fungus




                                      Hello Jamie,
                                      Your email and information are sincerely appreciated. As a student of all
                                      these applications, I listen. Thanks for taking the time to elucidate Copper
                                      sulphates true colors. As of yet I have not used anything like that. I am
                                      really disposed to just say if its going to die, let it die. I like the idea
                                      given on this topic to just use the seed of those plants that best handled
                                      the fungus onslaught for the next season. I am a real believer in
                                      erradicating all pesticides and biocides from agriculture and the world. It
                                      makes me quite paranoid as I am sure others. I do my best to spread that
                                      word to anyone that listens and of course apply it "in situ" to our way of
                                      life. If its going to die, let it die. If you are not going to eat as a
                                      result things get more tricky, but eating copper sulphate sounds a little
                                      harsh too.
                                      Last week I visited an area in the North Mountains of Malaga that is a major
                                      producer of raisins. To my surprise these vines spread over all these
                                      moutains, up and down ravines, and not a drop of water. The temperature was
                                      close to 34º and the solar radiation was impressive. Anyhow what I am
                                      getting at is it was all "left alone" as its been done for centuries and
                                      every year they get great yields. No sprays or other. Quite a learning trip.
                                      Where can I learn of Emilias video etc.? I read some of her work and
                                      learned. I also appreciate the relief on our backs!
                                      Thanks again for all the input as to all others who contributed to the
                                      Fungus conversations. Its a learning curve.
                                      Robin



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