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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank

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  • Dieter Brand
    Edward, There are many different views of what Natural Farming actually is. In my view (and I agree with Raju in this respect), Natural Farming attempts to
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2009
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      Edward,

      There are many different views of what Natural Farming actually is.
      In my view (and I agree with Raju in this respect), Natural Farming
      attempts to grow food crops without fertilizers or other external
      inputs; this includes organic fertilizers or even compost bought from
      an outside source.

      Obviously, in cases in which organic matter, manure or even sludge
      that would otherwise go to a landfill is freely available, there may
      be a case for using it on our land. However, when doing so, there is
      the issue of contamination we have to address. I think the problem of
      pathogens is wildly exaggerated. There will always be microorganisms
      we consider as pathogens, but in any healthy soil environment these
      so-called pathogens will be dealt with by the overwhelming number of
      beneficial microorganisms.

      Contamination from chemical and pharmaceutical substances, on the
      other hand, is a problem of such magnitude that I don't know if there
      will ever by sufficient technical means for treating sludge so as to
      make quite sure that no contaminations remain. Even routine chemical
      analysis for a wide range of substances is likely to be so expensive
      as to price the product far beyond any reasonable level. 50 years
      ago, it would have been no problem to use sludge; however, in the last
      few decades humans have released well over 100,000 new chemical
      compounds into the environment. Most people pour considerable amounts
      of chemicals down their drain, which will get with the grey water into
      the septic tank. I have spent many years of my life in the Far East
      and know that in most countries there medical doctors are very
      generous about describing antibiotics and other very aggressive drugs.
      All of this goes into the sludge.

      Recent news reports about contaminated hay, manure and even compost
      have shown that many chemical compounds go through several stages of
      the food chain without being broken down or without loosing their
      harmful effect. A chemical applied to a field will be transmitted to
      the grass growing on this field, to the cow eating the grass, to the
      manure from that cow, to the compost made from that manure, to the
      soil that compost was applied to and to the vegetables grown on that
      soil.

      In orchards the issue of fertility can be easily address by growing
      plants underneath the trees. If you are not happy with the native
      weeds and grasses that grow there naturally, you could try one or more
      of a large range of cover crops. In a hot climate, festuca which is
      heat-killed may be a good option. For example look at the way
      Japanese farmers make use of festuca at:

      http://www.sudatikaen.com/kazyuen-4.htm

      The gradual soil improvement through the root action and the decaying
      organic matter of the plants growing on your soil will create a
      balance that can only be disturbed by any addition of fertilizers
      brought in from somewhere else.

      Dieter Brand
      Portugal


      On 1/5/09, George.com <roblyn@...> wrote:
      > Pat
      >
      > I'd be surprised if glue contained lead any more. Environmental concerns
      > would have phased it out no?
      >
      > rob
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Pat D
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:33 PM
      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
      >
      >
      > cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could
      > possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn't be good. have you tried
      > fukuoka's idea of using a green mulch of White Clover?
      >
      > --- On Sun, 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
      > From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@...>
      > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:29 AM
      >
      > Hi All,
      >
      > I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
      >
      > I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10
      > yrs ago.
      >
      > There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried
      > solids) from the septic tank for my use.
      >
      > I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits
      > aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a
      > chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
      >
      > Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?
      >
      > I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions
      > is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and
      > is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
      >
      > Thanks in advance
      >
      > regards
      >
      > ef
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >
      >
      > No virus found in this incoming message.
      > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
      > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1871 - Release Date: 1/01/2009
      > 5:01 p.m.
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Michael Meredith
      Amen , brother. Michael ________________________________ From: Dieter Brand To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2009
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        Amen , brother.
        Michael




        ________________________________
        From: Dieter Brand <brand.dieter@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 5:56:09 AM
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank


        Edward,

        There are many different views of what Natural Farming actually is.
        In my view (and I agree with Raju in this respect), Natural Farming
        attempts to grow food crops without fertilizers or other external
        inputs; this includes organic fertilizers or even compost bought from
        an outside source.

        Obviously, in cases in which organic matter, manure or even sludge
        that would otherwise go to a landfill is freely available, there may
        be a case for using it on our land. However, when doing so, there is
        the issue of contamination we have to address. I think the problem of
        pathogens is wildly exaggerated. There will always be microorganisms
        we consider as pathogens, but in any healthy soil environment these
        so-called pathogens will be dealt with by the overwhelming number of
        beneficial microorganisms.

        Contamination from chemical and pharmaceutical substances, on the
        other hand, is a problem of such magnitude that I don't know if there
        will ever by sufficient technical means for treating sludge so as to
        make quite sure that no contaminations remain. Even routine chemical
        analysis for a wide range of substances is likely to be so expensive
        as to price the product far beyond any reasonable level. 50 years
        ago, it would have been no problem to use sludge; however, in the last
        few decades humans have released well over 100,000 new chemical
        compounds into the environment. Most people pour considerable amounts
        of chemicals down their drain, which will get with the grey water into
        the septic tank. I have spent many years of my life in the Far East
        and know that in most countries there medical doctors are very
        generous about describing antibiotics and other very aggressive drugs.
        All of this goes into the sludge.

        Recent news reports about contaminated hay, manure and even compost
        have shown that many chemical compounds go through several stages of
        the food chain without being broken down or without loosing their
        harmful effect. A chemical applied to a field will be transmitted to
        the grass growing on this field, to the cow eating the grass, to the
        manure from that cow, to the compost made from that manure, to the
        soil that compost was applied to and to the vegetables grown on that
        soil.

        In orchards the issue of fertility can be easily address by growing
        plants underneath the trees. If you are not happy with the native
        weeds and grasses that grow there naturally, you could try one or more
        of a large range of cover crops. In a hot climate, festuca which is
        heat-killed may be a good option. For example look at the way
        Japanese farmers make use of festuca at:

        http://www.sudatika en.com/kazyuen- 4.htm

        The gradual soil improvement through the root action and the decaying
        organic matter of the plants growing on your soil will create a
        balance that can only be disturbed by any addition of fertilizers
        brought in from somewhere else.

        Dieter Brand
        Portugal

        On 1/5/09, George.com <roblyn@ihug. co.nz> wrote:
        > Pat
        >
        > I'd be surprised if glue contained lead any more. Environmental concerns
        > would have phased it out no?
        >
        > rob
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Pat D
        > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:33 PM
        > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
        >
        >
        > cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could
        > possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn't be good. have you tried
        > fukuoka's idea of using a green mulch of White Clover?
        >
        > --- On Sun, 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        > From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@ yahoo.com>
        > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
        > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
        > Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:29 AM
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
        >
        > I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10
        > yrs ago.
        >
        > There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried
        > solids) from the septic tank for my use.
        >
        > I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits
        > aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a
        > chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
        >
        > Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?
        >
        > I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions
        > is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and
        > is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
        >
        > Thanks in advance
        >
        > regards
        >
        > ef
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
        >
        >
        >
        > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
        > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1871 - Release Date: 1/01/2009
        > 5:01 p.m.
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • edward barton
        Dear Friends, Thanks to all friends who responded to my querry.It has helped me clarify lot of questions. Raju, my farm may not be a fukuoka farmig compliant
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 6, 2009
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          Dear Friends,
          Thanks to all friends who responded to my querry.It has helped me clarify lot of questions.
          Raju, my farm may not be a fukuoka farmig compliant but when i said i am using Natural farming practices i meant i dont use any chemical pesticides or chemical fertilisers for use in my orchard.
          I have now realised that Fukuoka suggested parctices include no tilling, no weeding ,no composting, no bringing in external sources of fertilisers etc.
          I would term my farm as chemical free farm.Now in my view a chemical free farm is natural farm or not is difficult for me to say..
          I only know that in Nature there is no chemical production but only natural organic matters reacating with each other in a very complex play.
          I have 5- 6 cows on the orchard and i use the cow manure in the compost heap.I do cut the tall grasses and weeds growing around the mango trees and place it in the compost pile.I have been told that if the grasses are not removed around the mango trees then pests including termites would attack the trees.
          I dont know how far this is true as i am a hobbyist orchard owner.

          My orchard has grown out of my love for Nature and it is not a commercial establishment.The mangoes grown on my orchard are the sweetest mangoes and 1000 times sweeter than what is available in the markets around here.
          thanks once again to all friends
          regards to all
          edward.


          __________________________________________________
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        • Raju Titus
          Dear Edward, There is lot of confusion in Natural and Organic way of farmings. People think that using organic fertilizers,insecticides,weed killers are
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 7, 2009
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            Dear Edward,
            There is lot of confusion in Natural and Organic way of farmings. People
            think that using organic fertilizers,insecticides,weed killers are natural.
            But these are all unnatural practises.Keeping Cows more easy with zero
            tillage.There is no need of making compost of Cow dung. It will be useful as
            early as returned to soil. In Mango orchard there is no need of weeding .
            Green cover of land in the shade area of trees helps in so many ways. It
            protects trees from insects and diseases,conserve moisture,supply organic
            fertilizer. The taste,flavour,and yield improves every season due to this
            cover. Killing of weeds and insects by Malathion or by Neem are same.
            Fukuoka Farming based of no killing (nonviolence). Tilling of land is most
            harmful unnatural practise.It creates demand of fertilizer and water
            and improves weeds and insects problem.
            Thanks
            Raju



            On 1/6/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Friends,
            > Thanks to all friends who responded to my querry.It has helped me clarify
            > lot of questions.
            > Raju, my farm may not be a fukuoka farmig compliant but when i said i am
            > using Natural farming practices i meant i dont use any chemical pesticides
            > or chemical fertilisers for use in my orchard.
            > I have now realised that Fukuoka suggested parctices include no tilling, no
            > weeding ,no composting, no bringing in external sources of fertilisers etc.
            > I would term my farm as chemical free farm.Now in my view a chemical free
            > farm is natural farm or not is difficult for me to say..
            > I only know that in Nature there is no chemical production but only natural
            > organic matters reacating with each other in a very complex play.
            > I have 5- 6 cows on the orchard and i use the cow manure in the compost
            > heap.I do cut the tall grasses and weeds growing around the mango trees and
            > place it in the compost pile.I have been told that if the grasses are not
            > removed around the mango trees then pests including termites would attack
            > the trees.
            > I dont know how far this is true as i am a hobbyist orchard owner.
            >
            > My orchard has grown out of my love for Nature and it is not a commercial
            > establishment.The mangoes grown on my orchard are the sweetest mangoes and
            > 1000 times sweeter than what is available in the markets around here.
            > thanks once again to all friends
            > regards to all
            > edward.
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • garden03048
            My orchard has grown out of my love for Nature and it is not a commercial establishment.The mangoes grown on my orchard are the sweetest mangoes and 1000 times
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 7, 2009
            • 0 Attachment
              My orchard has grown out of my love for
              Nature and it is not a commercial establishment.The mangoes grown on my
              orchard are the sweetest mangoes and 1000 times sweeter than what is
              available in the markets around here.
              > thanks once again to all friends
              > regards to all
              > edward.
              >
              >
              >You make me jealous. I love mangoes but they are not about to grow
              in Massachusetts.

              anthony
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