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Sludge from Septic Tank

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  • edward barton
    Hi All, I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India. I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10 yrs ago. There is a
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 4, 2009
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      Hi All,
      I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
      I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10 yrs ago.
      There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried solids) from the septic tank for my use.
      I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits aee meant for human consumption.Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
      Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?

      I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
      Thanks in advance
      regards
      ef
    • Michael Meredith
      Termites are unlikely. The sludge is ok if buried. If it is properly composted, as in a vietnamese composting toilet, it becomes virtually pathogen free. When
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 4, 2009
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        Termites are unlikely.
        The sludge is ok if buried. If it is properly composted, as in a vietnamese composting toilet, it becomes virtually pathogen free. When i was in India, I noticed what was needed was a cheap composting toilet, and a cheap solar water pump.
        So , I researched that for a number of years.
        Michael
        transparentroofing.com




        ________________________________
        From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, January 4, 2009 9:29:55 AM
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank


        Hi All,
        I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
        I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10 yrs ago.
        There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried solids) from the septic tank for my use.
        I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
        Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?

        I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
        Thanks in advance
        regards
        ef




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Harvest McCampbell
        I would suggest reading the Humanure Handbook before working with sludge. It is really well researched (and funny) and a number of pathogens (particularly
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 4, 2009
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          I would suggest reading the Humanure Handbook before working with
          sludge. It is really well researched (and funny) and a number of
          pathogens (particularly worm eggs) can survive if not properly composted.

          Here is a link to the publisher's web page:
          http://www.jenkinspublishing.com/humanure.html

          Harvest

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, edward barton
          <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi All,
          > I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
          > I have been following Natural farming practices since
          inception about 10 yrs ago.
          > There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge (
          the dried solids) from the septic tank for my use.
          > I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard
          where fruits aee meant for human consumption.Can anyone guide me on
          this?Is there a chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
          > Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?
          >
          > I have been reading about using cardboard for making
          compost.My questions is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would
          also attract termites? and is there a chance that these termites then
          would attack the nearby trees?
          > Thanks in advance
          > regards
          > ef
          >
        • Raju Titus
          Dear friend, There is no use of any outer organic material in natural way of farming as fertilizer it will effect adverse.With your questions it seems that you
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 4, 2009
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            Dear friend,
            There is no use of any outer organic material in natural way of farming as
            fertilizer it will effect adverse.With your questions it seems that you are
            not aware of Fukuoka Farming. Please read carefully files of this group.
            Thanks
            Raju

            On 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi All,
            > I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
            > I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10
            > yrs ago.
            > There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried
            > solids) from the septic tank for my use.
            > I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits
            > aee meant for human consumption.Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a
            > chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
            > Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?
            >
            > I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions
            > is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and
            > is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
            > Thanks in advance
            > regards
            > ef
            >
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Pat D
            cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn t be good.  have you tried fukuoka s idea of
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 4, 2009
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              cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn't be good.  have you tried fukuoka's idea of using a green mulch of White Clover?

              --- On Sun, 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
              From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@...>
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:29 AM











              Hi All,

              I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.

              I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10 yrs ago.

              There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried solids) from the septic tank for my use.

              I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?

              Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?



              I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?

              Thanks in advance

              regards

              ef































              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • George.com
              Pat I d be surprised if glue contained lead any more. Environmental concerns would have phased it out no? rob ... From: Pat D To:
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 4, 2009
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                Pat

                I'd be surprised if glue contained lead any more. Environmental concerns would have phased it out no?

                rob

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Pat D
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:33 PM
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank


                cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn't be good. have you tried fukuoka's idea of using a green mulch of White Clover?

                --- On Sun, 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
                From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@...>
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:29 AM

                Hi All,

                I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.

                I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10 yrs ago.

                There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried solids) from the septic tank for my use.

                I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?

                Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?

                I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?

                Thanks in advance

                regards

                ef











                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



                No virus found in this incoming message.
                Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1871 - Release Date: 1/01/2009 5:01 p.m.


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dieter Brand
                Edward, There are many different views of what Natural Farming actually is. In my view (and I agree with Raju in this respect), Natural Farming attempts to
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 5, 2009
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                  Edward,

                  There are many different views of what Natural Farming actually is.
                  In my view (and I agree with Raju in this respect), Natural Farming
                  attempts to grow food crops without fertilizers or other external
                  inputs; this includes organic fertilizers or even compost bought from
                  an outside source.

                  Obviously, in cases in which organic matter, manure or even sludge
                  that would otherwise go to a landfill is freely available, there may
                  be a case for using it on our land. However, when doing so, there is
                  the issue of contamination we have to address. I think the problem of
                  pathogens is wildly exaggerated. There will always be microorganisms
                  we consider as pathogens, but in any healthy soil environment these
                  so-called pathogens will be dealt with by the overwhelming number of
                  beneficial microorganisms.

                  Contamination from chemical and pharmaceutical substances, on the
                  other hand, is a problem of such magnitude that I don't know if there
                  will ever by sufficient technical means for treating sludge so as to
                  make quite sure that no contaminations remain. Even routine chemical
                  analysis for a wide range of substances is likely to be so expensive
                  as to price the product far beyond any reasonable level. 50 years
                  ago, it would have been no problem to use sludge; however, in the last
                  few decades humans have released well over 100,000 new chemical
                  compounds into the environment. Most people pour considerable amounts
                  of chemicals down their drain, which will get with the grey water into
                  the septic tank. I have spent many years of my life in the Far East
                  and know that in most countries there medical doctors are very
                  generous about describing antibiotics and other very aggressive drugs.
                  All of this goes into the sludge.

                  Recent news reports about contaminated hay, manure and even compost
                  have shown that many chemical compounds go through several stages of
                  the food chain without being broken down or without loosing their
                  harmful effect. A chemical applied to a field will be transmitted to
                  the grass growing on this field, to the cow eating the grass, to the
                  manure from that cow, to the compost made from that manure, to the
                  soil that compost was applied to and to the vegetables grown on that
                  soil.

                  In orchards the issue of fertility can be easily address by growing
                  plants underneath the trees. If you are not happy with the native
                  weeds and grasses that grow there naturally, you could try one or more
                  of a large range of cover crops. In a hot climate, festuca which is
                  heat-killed may be a good option. For example look at the way
                  Japanese farmers make use of festuca at:

                  http://www.sudatikaen.com/kazyuen-4.htm

                  The gradual soil improvement through the root action and the decaying
                  organic matter of the plants growing on your soil will create a
                  balance that can only be disturbed by any addition of fertilizers
                  brought in from somewhere else.

                  Dieter Brand
                  Portugal


                  On 1/5/09, George.com <roblyn@...> wrote:
                  > Pat
                  >
                  > I'd be surprised if glue contained lead any more. Environmental concerns
                  > would have phased it out no?
                  >
                  > rob
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: Pat D
                  > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:33 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
                  >
                  >
                  > cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could
                  > possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn't be good. have you tried
                  > fukuoka's idea of using a green mulch of White Clover?
                  >
                  > --- On Sun, 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
                  > From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@...>
                  > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
                  > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:29 AM
                  >
                  > Hi All,
                  >
                  > I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
                  >
                  > I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10
                  > yrs ago.
                  >
                  > There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried
                  > solids) from the septic tank for my use.
                  >
                  > I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits
                  > aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a
                  > chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
                  >
                  > Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?
                  >
                  > I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions
                  > is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and
                  > is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
                  >
                  > Thanks in advance
                  >
                  > regards
                  >
                  > ef
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > No virus found in this incoming message.
                  > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                  > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1871 - Release Date: 1/01/2009
                  > 5:01 p.m.
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Michael Meredith
                  Amen , brother. Michael ________________________________ From: Dieter Brand To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, January
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 5, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Amen , brother.
                    Michael




                    ________________________________
                    From: Dieter Brand <brand.dieter@...>
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, January 5, 2009 5:56:09 AM
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank


                    Edward,

                    There are many different views of what Natural Farming actually is.
                    In my view (and I agree with Raju in this respect), Natural Farming
                    attempts to grow food crops without fertilizers or other external
                    inputs; this includes organic fertilizers or even compost bought from
                    an outside source.

                    Obviously, in cases in which organic matter, manure or even sludge
                    that would otherwise go to a landfill is freely available, there may
                    be a case for using it on our land. However, when doing so, there is
                    the issue of contamination we have to address. I think the problem of
                    pathogens is wildly exaggerated. There will always be microorganisms
                    we consider as pathogens, but in any healthy soil environment these
                    so-called pathogens will be dealt with by the overwhelming number of
                    beneficial microorganisms.

                    Contamination from chemical and pharmaceutical substances, on the
                    other hand, is a problem of such magnitude that I don't know if there
                    will ever by sufficient technical means for treating sludge so as to
                    make quite sure that no contaminations remain. Even routine chemical
                    analysis for a wide range of substances is likely to be so expensive
                    as to price the product far beyond any reasonable level. 50 years
                    ago, it would have been no problem to use sludge; however, in the last
                    few decades humans have released well over 100,000 new chemical
                    compounds into the environment. Most people pour considerable amounts
                    of chemicals down their drain, which will get with the grey water into
                    the septic tank. I have spent many years of my life in the Far East
                    and know that in most countries there medical doctors are very
                    generous about describing antibiotics and other very aggressive drugs.
                    All of this goes into the sludge.

                    Recent news reports about contaminated hay, manure and even compost
                    have shown that many chemical compounds go through several stages of
                    the food chain without being broken down or without loosing their
                    harmful effect. A chemical applied to a field will be transmitted to
                    the grass growing on this field, to the cow eating the grass, to the
                    manure from that cow, to the compost made from that manure, to the
                    soil that compost was applied to and to the vegetables grown on that
                    soil.

                    In orchards the issue of fertility can be easily address by growing
                    plants underneath the trees. If you are not happy with the native
                    weeds and grasses that grow there naturally, you could try one or more
                    of a large range of cover crops. In a hot climate, festuca which is
                    heat-killed may be a good option. For example look at the way
                    Japanese farmers make use of festuca at:

                    http://www.sudatika en.com/kazyuen- 4.htm

                    The gradual soil improvement through the root action and the decaying
                    organic matter of the plants growing on your soil will create a
                    balance that can only be disturbed by any addition of fertilizers
                    brought in from somewhere else.

                    Dieter Brand
                    Portugal

                    On 1/5/09, George.com <roblyn@ihug. co.nz> wrote:
                    > Pat
                    >
                    > I'd be surprised if glue contained lead any more. Environmental concerns
                    > would have phased it out no?
                    >
                    > rob
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Pat D
                    > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Sent: Monday, January 05, 2009 3:33 PM
                    > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
                    >
                    >
                    > cardboard has glue in it, which i think is high in lead, which could
                    > possibly get into the fruit and that wouldn't be good. have you tried
                    > fukuoka's idea of using a green mulch of White Clover?
                    >
                    > --- On Sun, 1/4/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@ yahoo.com> wrote:
                    > From: edward barton <siliconvalley47@ yahoo.com>
                    > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Sludge from Septic Tank
                    > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                    > Date: Sunday, January 4, 2009, 9:29 AM
                    >
                    > Hi All,
                    >
                    > I have a mango and coconut orchard near Mumbai India.
                    >
                    > I have been following Natural farming practices since inception about 10
                    > yrs ago.
                    >
                    > There is a hotel near my farm and they are offering sludge ( the dried
                    > solids) from the septic tank for my use.
                    >
                    > I am not sure if such dried solids can be used in a orchard where fruits
                    > aee meant for human consumption. Can anyone guide me on this?Is there a
                    > chance of dangerous pathogens entering the food chain.?
                    >
                    > Can such solids be used for ornamental plants?
                    >
                    > I have been reading about using cardboard for making compost.My questions
                    > is whether the rotting cardboard under soil would also attract termites? and
                    > is there a chance that these termites then would attack the nearby trees?
                    >
                    > Thanks in advance
                    >
                    > regards
                    >
                    > ef
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > No virus found in this incoming message.
                    > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg com
                    > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.2/1871 - Release Date: 1/01/2009
                    > 5:01 p.m.
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • edward barton
                    Dear Friends, Thanks to all friends who responded to my querry.It has helped me clarify lot of questions. Raju, my farm may not be a fukuoka farmig compliant
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 6, 2009
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                      Dear Friends,
                      Thanks to all friends who responded to my querry.It has helped me clarify lot of questions.
                      Raju, my farm may not be a fukuoka farmig compliant but when i said i am using Natural farming practices i meant i dont use any chemical pesticides or chemical fertilisers for use in my orchard.
                      I have now realised that Fukuoka suggested parctices include no tilling, no weeding ,no composting, no bringing in external sources of fertilisers etc.
                      I would term my farm as chemical free farm.Now in my view a chemical free farm is natural farm or not is difficult for me to say..
                      I only know that in Nature there is no chemical production but only natural organic matters reacating with each other in a very complex play.
                      I have 5- 6 cows on the orchard and i use the cow manure in the compost heap.I do cut the tall grasses and weeds growing around the mango trees and place it in the compost pile.I have been told that if the grasses are not removed around the mango trees then pests including termites would attack the trees.
                      I dont know how far this is true as i am a hobbyist orchard owner.

                      My orchard has grown out of my love for Nature and it is not a commercial establishment.The mangoes grown on my orchard are the sweetest mangoes and 1000 times sweeter than what is available in the markets around here.
                      thanks once again to all friends
                      regards to all
                      edward.


                      __________________________________________________
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                    • Raju Titus
                      Dear Edward, There is lot of confusion in Natural and Organic way of farmings. People think that using organic fertilizers,insecticides,weed killers are
                      Message 10 of 11 , Jan 7, 2009
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                        Dear Edward,
                        There is lot of confusion in Natural and Organic way of farmings. People
                        think that using organic fertilizers,insecticides,weed killers are natural.
                        But these are all unnatural practises.Keeping Cows more easy with zero
                        tillage.There is no need of making compost of Cow dung. It will be useful as
                        early as returned to soil. In Mango orchard there is no need of weeding .
                        Green cover of land in the shade area of trees helps in so many ways. It
                        protects trees from insects and diseases,conserve moisture,supply organic
                        fertilizer. The taste,flavour,and yield improves every season due to this
                        cover. Killing of weeds and insects by Malathion or by Neem are same.
                        Fukuoka Farming based of no killing (nonviolence). Tilling of land is most
                        harmful unnatural practise.It creates demand of fertilizer and water
                        and improves weeds and insects problem.
                        Thanks
                        Raju



                        On 1/6/09, edward barton <siliconvalley47@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Dear Friends,
                        > Thanks to all friends who responded to my querry.It has helped me clarify
                        > lot of questions.
                        > Raju, my farm may not be a fukuoka farmig compliant but when i said i am
                        > using Natural farming practices i meant i dont use any chemical pesticides
                        > or chemical fertilisers for use in my orchard.
                        > I have now realised that Fukuoka suggested parctices include no tilling, no
                        > weeding ,no composting, no bringing in external sources of fertilisers etc.
                        > I would term my farm as chemical free farm.Now in my view a chemical free
                        > farm is natural farm or not is difficult for me to say..
                        > I only know that in Nature there is no chemical production but only natural
                        > organic matters reacating with each other in a very complex play.
                        > I have 5- 6 cows on the orchard and i use the cow manure in the compost
                        > heap.I do cut the tall grasses and weeds growing around the mango trees and
                        > place it in the compost pile.I have been told that if the grasses are not
                        > removed around the mango trees then pests including termites would attack
                        > the trees.
                        > I dont know how far this is true as i am a hobbyist orchard owner.
                        >
                        > My orchard has grown out of my love for Nature and it is not a commercial
                        > establishment.The mangoes grown on my orchard are the sweetest mangoes and
                        > 1000 times sweeter than what is available in the markets around here.
                        > thanks once again to all friends
                        > regards to all
                        > edward.
                        >
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        >


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • garden03048
                        My orchard has grown out of my love for Nature and it is not a commercial establishment.The mangoes grown on my orchard are the sweetest mangoes and 1000 times
                        Message 11 of 11 , Jan 7, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          My orchard has grown out of my love for
                          Nature and it is not a commercial establishment.The mangoes grown on my
                          orchard are the sweetest mangoes and 1000 times sweeter than what is
                          available in the markets around here.
                          > thanks once again to all friends
                          > regards to all
                          > edward.
                          >
                          >
                          >You make me jealous. I love mangoes but they are not about to grow
                          in Massachusetts.

                          anthony
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