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Re: [fukuoka_farming] seedmeal for seedballs

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  • Raju Titus
    Dear Dieter, Yes in 1999 i was with Fukuoka in Gandhi Cortege in Maharashtra India with so many cow supporter were asking same question. What harm if we mix
    Message 1 of 7 , Nov 30 2:45 AM
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      Dear Dieter,
      Yes in 1999 i was with Fukuoka in Gandhi Cortege in Maharashtra India with
      so many cow supporter were asking same question. What harm if we mix cow
      dung and cow urine? Fukuoka has replied the same as you mention.
      Thank you very much
      Raju Titus

      On 11/30/08, Dieter Brand <brand.dieter@...> wrote:
      > Etem,
      > Clay is used to physically protect seedballs. There is no sense in
      > using compost, COF or anything else. Given the right temperature and
      > sufficient humidity seeds will germinate because a seed contains
      > everything it needs to germinate. Adding manure or compost can even
      > be detrimental because microbes that decompose organic matter are
      > different from microbes that colonize roots to feed the plant.
      > Steve S. is a gardener and author with more experience than most of us
      > whom I greatly respect; however, he advocates a cultivation method
      > that is diametrically opposed to Natural Farming, of which he has a
      > rather low opinion. But by all means do try COF. Yet from a Natural
      > Farming point of view, I would point out that COF, like EM, like
      > mycorrhiza, like terra preta, like a thousand other additives falls
      > under the general heading of "do-nothing", as explained by Fukuoka:
      > "the farmer became too busy when people began to investigate the world
      > and decided that it would be "good" if we did this or did that. All my
      > research has been in the direction of not doing this or that" (OSR, p.
      > 87, lines 10-8 from the bottom).
      > But even if we may have different opinions about this, there can be no
      > doubt about the fact that the aim of Natural Farming is
      > "self-sufficiency" and "sustainability" and not relying on outside
      > inputs such as seedmeal etc. purchased from somewhere else. If we
      > only have a very small plot of land which we want to dedicate entirely
      > to food production, there may be no other way than purchasing seadmeal
      > and the like from outside (but definitely not for seedballs). In most
      > other situations the aim should IMHO be to grow most if not all
      > fertility on-site.
      > Dieter Brand
      > Portugal
      > PS: I would be curious to know where Fukuoka advocated using compost
      > for seedballs.
      > On 11/29/08, Etem Tezcan <etem.tezcan@... <etem.tezcan%40gmail.com>>
      > wrote:
      > > Hello,
      > > I looked at the photos of Seedball event at Greece. It looks like they
      > > didn't use compost since seedballs are pretty reddish and they didn't
      > > mention compost in the machine's description.
      > > "..the machine forces to the premade mix of clay, seeds and water to the
      > > front where steel plate the holes are located..."
      > >
      > > If that is the case, one reason for that maybe lack of enough compost
      > > for making 20 tons of seed balls. Original Fukuoka recipe for seedballs
      > > requires 3 volume part of compost for each 5 volume part of clay.
      > > That would require at least 5-6 tons of compost for the Greece event.
      > >
      > > Steve Solomon advocates using Complete Organic Fertilizer(COF) in
      > > vegetable garden with/instead of compost. It is a mixture made from
      > > seedmeals( 4 volume of seedmeal such as cotton, sunflower),
      > > calcium ingredient(ag lime, dolomite or gypsum summing up to 1 volume)
      > > and some organic additives(bonemeal, kelp. preferred but not necessary).
      > > I made a batch from sunflower seedmeal and results are about NPK of
      > > 2.5-2.5-1 with trace elements. Those results are similar to or even
      > > better that strong compost. Cottonseed meal is said to be much higher
      > > NPK values. (about 5-5-1). These values greatly exceed typical values of
      > > chicken manure which is about 1.5-1.5-1 with much less salt content.
      > >
      > > I think it will be a good idea to use seedmeal or COF in seedball recipe
      > > when one cannot find good compost. Cottonseed or sunflower seed meals
      > > are available from feed stores. Cottonseed meal is about 375 USD/mt and
      > > sunflowerseed meal is half of that in bulk quantities. I would love to
      > > hear any feedback on the subject.
      > >
      > > Etem Tezcan
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ------------------------------------
      > >
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dieter Brand
      Having planted or sown hundreds of different species in the last ten years, I have never used any inoculation whatsoever, certainly not for lupines or fabas,
      Message 2 of 7 , Dec 3, 2008
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        Having planted or sown hundreds of different species in the last ten
        years, I have never used any inoculation whatsoever, certainly not for
        lupines or fabas, even though these haven't been grown on this site
        for at least 40 years and the next garden is more than a mile away.


        On 12/3/08, Jeff <shultonus@...> wrote:
        >> Inoculation with fungi is used in reforestation projects and
        >> inoculation with microbes is used in conventional agriculture. It
        >> stands to reason that inoculation with microbes or fungi may be
        > useful when the soil biology is being systematically destroyed by
        >> agrochemicals or when trees are to be planted on a parking lot. But
        >> that is normally not the case in Natural Farming. I'm not a
        >> biologist, but the way I understand it is that, in a biologically
        >> active soil, the necessary organisms (including microbes and fungi)
        >> will occur spontaneously when needed and that these organisms will
        >> multiply and thrive when conditions are right: sufficient humidity,
        >> air, the right temperature range and most importantly stuff to feed
        >> on. From which I conclude that rather than inoculating my soil (or
        >> seedballs) with fungi or microbes produced under laboratory
        > conditions at great expense it is preferable to create the right
        > environment for organisms to live in. Basically this means the return
        > of organic matter in whichever form proves to be most effective.
        > While it is true that a wide variety of fungus and other beneficial
        > microbes can and due appear spontaneously under the right conditions,
        > it is also true that some never will.....
        > IE..
        > Most VAM fungus and ecto-mycorhyzal fungus will appear spontaneous--
        > this is actually due to pre innoculation of seeds via natural
        > dispersement, and the fact that these spores are long lived under
        > natural conditions and generally resilient to most chemicals being
        > applied (they stay dormant as spores instead of getting killed off)
        > the chemicals that absolutely will kill this off is of course
        > fungicides..... wine anyone?
        > this is basically true of beneficial bacterias as well...
        > the best way to promote VAM btw is to simply grow plants that increase
        > VAM..
        > However, most species specific symbiotic organisms fall into another
        > category....
        > they are typically short lived, and not wide spread, and may not be in
        > the local area, or even the bioregion.
        > A couple of examples,
        > while peas and beans and garbanzos and soy have long histories of
        > cultivation, and basically any farm area will have the right bacteria
        > for innoculation...
        > other more rare ones like lupin, or lablab or faba (outside of
        > Asia)... may require intial site innocultion...
        > different groups of legumes actually have different species of
        > bacteria (something alot of people don't know)
        > .. typically infection drops 10%-20% per year without that crop being
        > used,, and bottoms out at about 10%...... innoiculation insures 100%
        > infection in most cases
        > new to the area.. accacias and leucana (sp) would also require
        > innoculation ....
        > pines, oaks (truffels anyone?), beeches... all have specific
        > beneficial microbes that don't exist outside of there habitat...
        > in that case.. usually the best innoculant is simply using soil from
        > the area with this trees naturally, rather than being some laboratory
        > mix....
        > as many of this species aren't able be cultured in laboratory
        > conditions....
        > some of the innoculation are actualy harvest in the wild,, in a
        > damaging way (ie dig the plant up and scrape off the roots)....
        > caveat emptor.
        > j
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