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The spelt germinates already

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  • Dieter Brand
    Guenther et al,   I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food store.  Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a bowl on top of some
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 26, 2008
      Guenther et al,

      I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food store.� Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a bowl on top of some soaked tissue paper at room temperature).� Today, less than 12 hours later, I can detect little white things starting to form on the grains.� I�m not sure what kind of spelt I have got; on the packaging is says Triticum aestivum.� In the book about Hildegard von Bingen it says that Triticum monococcum is still cultivated in France and that Triticum duococum is still being grown in Italy, but that the �real� spelt is called Triticum spelta (something to do with different chromosomes).� At the moment I can�t check how the type I have got figures in all of this. It also says that the yield with spelt is lower than with wheat, but that spelt will grow without fertilizers even on poor soil, and that it can cope with drought and other extreme conditions; just what we need for Natural Farming. �

      We still didn�t get any rain.� If it continues like this I will try to sow a small test plot with spelt and then irrigate.

      Dieter Brand
      Portugal





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Anders Skarlind
      Dieter, was the spelt hulled? I am bit doubtful about using hulled spelt as seed. There are various taxonomic systems. I seem to recall that spelt is regarded
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 26, 2008
        Dieter, was the spelt hulled? I am bit doubtful about using hulled
        spelt as seed.

        There are various taxonomic systems. I seem to recall that spelt is
        regarded as a race or form of common wheat (T. aestivum) in at least
        one of those systems. But normally it is considered as a separate
        species T.spelta.

        It seems Hildegard by spelt refers not only to the species (T.
        spelta) but to all hulled forms (i.e. spelt forms) of wheat, which
        includes einkorn (T.monococcum) and emmer/zweikorn (T.dicoccon ?).

        Wheat is believed to have formed via crosses and gene plasm
        duplications (polyploidi). Normally multiplication of gene plasm is
        (up to an optimum level) followed by plants getting bigger, and this
        is the case also for wheats. The original wheat is the einkorn, which
        has 14 cromosomes (2n=14). It is believed to have formed from some
        primitive grass(es) with only 7 cromosomes. Hence einkorn is referred
        to as diploid, as it has the double (di) number of cromosomes).
        Zweikorn is tetraploid, with 2n=28. Also durum wheat (T. durum) and
        others are tetraploid. Both spelt and common wheat have another 14
        cromosomes (2n=42) and hence are hexaploid (hexa=six). I think the
        prevailing theory is that another wheat has crossed in here, but I am
        not sure. (Don't have time to check it up now.) Wheats with the same
        number of cromosomes can cross to some extent, while those with
        different number of cromosomes normally don't.

        BTW for eating whole grains, zweikorn and esp einkorn are definitely
        preferable to all hexaploid wheats, both common wheat and spelt.

        Anders



        At 10:37 2008-11-26, you wrote:

        >Guenther et al,
        >
        >I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food
        >store. Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a bowl
        >on top of some soaked tissue paper at room temperature). Today,
        >less than 12 hours later, I can detect little white things starting
        >to form on the grains. I'm not sure what kind of spelt I have got;
        >on the packaging is says Triticum aestivum. In the book about
        >Hildegard von Bingen it says that Triticum monococcum is still
        >cultivated in France and that Triticum duococum is still being grown
        >in Italy, but that the "real" spelt is called Triticum spelta
        >(something to do with different chromosomes). At the moment I can't
        >check how the type I have got figures in all of this. It also says
        >that the yield with spelt is lower than with wheat, but that spelt
        >will grow without fertilizers even on poor soil, and that it can
        >cope with drought and other extreme conditions; just what we need
        >for Natural Farming.
        >
        >We still didn't get any rain. If it continues like this I will try
        >to sow a small test plot with spelt and then irrigate.
        >
        >Dieter Brand
        >Portugal
        >
      • gunther1753
        ... It seems, health food stores are well worth a try, for all sorts of grains, even if not everything works. Ordering from seed-supplies you end up paying
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 26, 2008
          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Anders Skarlind
          <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:
          >Hi Dieter
          It seems, health food stores are well worth a try, for all sorts of
          grains, even if not everything works. Ordering from seed-supplies you
          end up paying phantasie prizes for tiny ammounts.

          cheerio guenther
          > Dieter, was the spelt hulled? I am bit doubtful about using hulled
          > spelt as seed.
          >
          > There are various taxonomic systems. I seem to recall that spelt is
          > regarded as a race or form of common wheat (T. aestivum) in at
          least
          > one of those systems. But normally it is considered as a separate
          > species T.spelta.
          >
          > It seems Hildegard by spelt refers not only to the species (T.
          > spelta) but to all hulled forms (i.e. spelt forms) of wheat, which
          > includes einkorn (T.monococcum) and emmer/zweikorn (T.dicoccon ?).
          >
          > Wheat is believed to have formed via crosses and gene plasm
          > duplications (polyploidi). Normally multiplication of gene plasm is
          > (up to an optimum level) followed by plants getting bigger, and
          this
          > is the case also for wheats. The original wheat is the einkorn,
          which
          > has 14 cromosomes (2n=14). It is believed to have formed from some
          > primitive grass(es) with only 7 cromosomes. Hence einkorn is
          referred
          > to as diploid, as it has the double (di) number of cromosomes).
          > Zweikorn is tetraploid, with 2n=28. Also durum wheat (T. durum) and
          > others are tetraploid. Both spelt and common wheat have another 14
          > cromosomes (2n=42) and hence are hexaploid (hexa=six). I think the
          > prevailing theory is that another wheat has crossed in here, but I
          am
          > not sure. (Don't have time to check it up now.) Wheats with the
          same
          > number of cromosomes can cross to some extent, while those with
          > different number of cromosomes normally don't.
          >
          > BTW for eating whole grains, zweikorn and esp einkorn are
          definitely
          > preferable to all hexaploid wheats, both common wheat and spelt.
          >
          > Anders
          >
          >
          >
          > At 10:37 2008-11-26, you wrote:
          >
          > >Guenther et al,
          > >
          > >I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food
          > >store. Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a
          bowl
          > >on top of some soaked tissue paper at room temperature). Today,
          > >less than 12 hours later, I can detect little white things
          starting
          > >to form on the grains. I'm not sure what kind of spelt I have
          got;
          > >on the packaging is says Triticum aestivum. In the book about
          > >Hildegard von Bingen it says that Triticum monococcum is still
          > >cultivated in France and that Triticum duococum is still being
          grown
          > >in Italy, but that the "real" spelt is called Triticum spelta
          > >(something to do with different chromosomes). At the moment I
          can't
          > >check how the type I have got figures in all of this. It also says
          > >that the yield with spelt is lower than with wheat, but that spelt
          > >will grow without fertilizers even on poor soil, and that it can
          > >cope with drought and other extreme conditions; just what we need
          > >for Natural Farming.
          > >
          > >We still didn't get any rain. If it continues like this I will
          try
          > >to sow a small test plot with spelt and then irrigate.
          > >
          > >Dieter Brand
          > >Portugal
          > >
          >
        • Dieter Brand
          Thanks Anders,   In other words, T. aestivum and T. spelta signify the same thing in two different classification systems.  Is that correct?   Yes, the
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 26, 2008
            Thanks Anders,
             
            In other words, T. aestivum and T. spelta signify the same thing in two different classification systems.  Is that correct?
             
            Yes, the spelt was hulled.  Never seen any unhulled grain seeds around here.  I didn't mean to portray the local health food store as an ideal place for getting seed.  It's just hard to get seeds around here (can't even get rye locally), and with delivery services not working in this remote part of the country, it is even difficult to order seeds from abroad. I figure, at least the stuff from the health food store is organic.  In the long run I want to get more into seed saving anyways.  I think it is a precondition for natural farming.
             
            Dieter

            --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:

            From: Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...>
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 10:33 AM






            Dieter, was the spelt hulled? I am bit doubtful about using hulled
            spelt as seed.

            There are various taxonomic systems. I seem to recall that spelt is
            regarded as a race or form of common wheat (T. aestivum) in at least
            one of those systems. But normally it is considered as a separate
            species T.spelta.

            It seems Hildegard by spelt refers not only to the species (T.
            spelta) but to all hulled forms (i.e. spelt forms) of wheat, which
            includes einkorn (T.monococcum) and emmer/zweikorn (T.dicoccon ?).

            Wheat is believed to have formed via crosses and gene plasm
            duplications (polyploidi) . Normally multiplication of gene plasm is
            (up to an optimum level) followed by plants getting bigger, and this
            is the case also for wheats. The original wheat is the einkorn, which
            has 14 cromosomes (2n=14). It is believed to have formed from some
            primitive grass(es) with only 7 cromosomes. Hence einkorn is referred
            to as diploid, as it has the double (di) number of cromosomes).
            Zweikorn is tetraploid, with 2n=28. Also durum wheat (T. durum) and
            others are tetraploid. Both spelt and common wheat have another 14
            cromosomes (2n=42) and hence are hexaploid (hexa=six). I think the
            prevailing theory is that another wheat has crossed in here, but I am
            not sure. (Don't have time to check it up now.) Wheats with the same
            number of cromosomes can cross to some extent, while those with
            different number of cromosomes normally don't.

            BTW for eating whole grains, zweikorn and esp einkorn are definitely
            preferable to all hexaploid wheats, both common wheat and spelt.

            Anders

            At 10:37 2008-11-26, you wrote:

            >Guenther et al,
            >
            >I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food
            >store. Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a bowl
            >on top of some soaked tissue paper at room temperature) . Today,
            >less than 12 hours later, I can detect little white things starting
            >to form on the grains. I'm not sure what kind of spelt I have got;
            >on the packaging is says Triticum aestivum. In the book about
            >Hildegard von Bingen it says that Triticum monococcum is still
            >cultivated in France and that Triticum duococum is still being grown
            >in Italy, but that the "real" spelt is called Triticum spelta
            >(something to do with different chromosomes) . At the moment I can't
            >check how the type I have got figures in all of this. It also says
            >that the yield with spelt is lower than with wheat, but that spelt
            >will grow without fertilizers even on poor soil, and that it can
            >cope with drought and other extreme conditions; just what we need
            >for Natural Farming.
            >
            >We still didn't get any rain. If it continues like this I will try
            >to sow a small test plot with spelt and then irrigate.
            >
            >Dieter Brand
            >Portugal
            >


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Anders Skarlind
            Dieter, Triticum aestivum is common wheat. But in at least one system, spelt is not recognised as a separate species, but is included in T.aestivum as a
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 26, 2008
              Dieter,
              Triticum aestivum is common wheat. But in at least one system, spelt
              is not recognised as a separate species, but is included in
              T.aestivum as a subspecies. One don't need to get too involved in
              this. Normally spelt is T. spelta and common wheat is T.aestivum. But
              it might be of value to know that they can cross.

              Consider looking for suitable varieties in seed saving organisations,
              gene banks and specialised seed companies. Often you can only get
              small quatities, that you will have to multiply yourself.

              I tried to locate some possible resources for you. As my findings are
              very preliminary, I will email them to you off-list. If you evaluate
              them, perhaps you can later email the best ones to this list, for
              local and regional interest.

              Anders


              At 22:43 2008-11-26, you wrote:
              >Thanks Anders,
              >
              >In other words, T. aestivum and T. spelta signify the same thing in
              >two different classification systems. Is that correct?
              >
              >Yes, the spelt was hulled. Never seen any unhulled grain seeds
              >around here. I didn't mean to portray the local health food store
              >as an ideal place for getting seed. It's just hard to get seeds
              >around here (can't even get rye locally), and with delivery services
              >not working in this remote part of the country, it is even difficult
              >to order seeds from abroad. I figure, at least the stuff from the
              >health food store is organic. In the long run I want to get more
              >into seed saving anyways. I think it is a precondition for natural farming.
              >
              >Dieter
              >
              >--- On Wed, 11/26/08, Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:
              >
              >From: Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...>
              >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
              >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              >Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 10:33 AM
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Dieter, was the spelt hulled? I am bit doubtful about using hulled
              >spelt as seed.
              >
              >There are various taxonomic systems. I seem to recall that spelt is
              >regarded as a race or form of common wheat (T. aestivum) in at least
              >one of those systems. But normally it is considered as a separate
              >species T.spelta.
              >
              >It seems Hildegard by spelt refers not only to the species (T.
              >spelta) but to all hulled forms (i.e. spelt forms) of wheat, which
              >includes einkorn (T.monococcum) and emmer/zweikorn (T.dicoccon ?).
              >
              >Wheat is believed to have formed via crosses and gene plasm
              >duplications (polyploidi) . Normally multiplication of gene plasm is
              >(up to an optimum level) followed by plants getting bigger, and this
              >is the case also for wheats. The original wheat is the einkorn, which
              >has 14 cromosomes (2n=14). It is believed to have formed from some
              >primitive grass(es) with only 7 cromosomes. Hence einkorn is referred
              >to as diploid, as it has the double (di) number of cromosomes).
              >Zweikorn is tetraploid, with 2n=28. Also durum wheat (T. durum) and
              >others are tetraploid. Both spelt and common wheat have another 14
              >cromosomes (2n=42) and hence are hexaploid (hexa=six). I think the
              >prevailing theory is that another wheat has crossed in here, but I am
              >not sure. (Don't have time to check it up now.) Wheats with the same
              >number of cromosomes can cross to some extent, while those with
              >different number of cromosomes normally don't.
              >
              >BTW for eating whole grains, zweikorn and esp einkorn are definitely
              >preferable to all hexaploid wheats, both common wheat and spelt.
              >
              >Anders
              >
              >At 10:37 2008-11-26, you wrote:
              >
              > >Guenther et al,
              > >
              > >I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food
              > >store. Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a bowl
              > >on top of some soaked tissue paper at room temperature) . Today,
              > >less than 12 hours later, I can detect little white things starting
              > >to form on the grains. I'm not sure what kind of spelt I have got;
              > >on the packaging is says Triticum aestivum. In the book about
              > >Hildegard von Bingen it says that Triticum monococcum is still
              > >cultivated in France and that Triticum duococum is still being grown
              > >in Italy, but that the "real" spelt is called Triticum spelta
              > >(something to do with different chromosomes) . At the moment I can't
              > >check how the type I have got figures in all of this. It also says
              > >that the yield with spelt is lower than with wheat, but that spelt
              > >will grow without fertilizers even on poor soil, and that it can
              > >cope with drought and other extreme conditions; just what we need
              > >for Natural Farming.
              > >
              > >We still didn't get any rain. If it continues like this I will try
              > >to sow a small test plot with spelt and then irrigate.
              > >
              > >Dieter Brand
              > >Portugal
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >------------------------------------
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
            • Dieter Brand
              Anders,   Taxonomy seems to be a science of it’s own.  You are right, Triticum aestivum is common wheat.  What I have got is “Espelta” in Portuguese,
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 27, 2008
                Anders,

                Taxonomy seems to be a science of it�s own.� You are right, Triticum aestivum is common wheat.� What I have got is �Espelta� in Portuguese, which is Triticum aestivum subsp. spelta.� They omitted the subspecies on the packaging.� The fact that it is used for cooking (the grains) rather than for baking also shows that it is spelt and not normal wheat.

                One problem I have got when trying to buy seeds locally is that most seeds are treated with chemicals (red thyram and the like).� When I ask if they have untreated seeds they look at me as if I had made an indecent proposition.� In this part of the World, to use agrochemicals is still considered progressive and enlightened; the more chemicals the better.

                Dieter


                --- On Wed, 11/26/08, Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:

                From: Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...>
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 10:42 PM






                Dieter,
                Triticum aestivum is common wheat. But in at least one system, spelt
                is not recognised as a separate species, but is included in
                T.aestivum as a subspecies. One don't need to get too involved in
                this. Normally spelt is T. spelta and common wheat is T.aestivum. But
                it might be of value to know that they can cross.

                Consider looking for suitable varieties in seed saving organisations,
                gene banks and specialised seed companies. Often you can only get
                small quatities, that you will have to multiply yourself.

                I tried to locate some possible resources for you. As my findings are
                very preliminary, I will email them to you off-list. If you evaluate
                them, perhaps you can later email the best ones to this list, for
                local and regional interest.

                Anders

                At 22:43 2008-11-26, you wrote:
                >Thanks Anders,
                >
                >In other words, T. aestivum and T. spelta signify the same thing in
                >two different classification systems. Is that correct?
                >
                >Yes, the spelt was hulled. Never seen any unhulled grain seeds
                >around here. I didn't mean to portray the local health food store
                >as an ideal place for getting seed. It's just hard to get seeds
                >around here (can't even get rye locally), and with delivery services
                >not working in this remote part of the country, it is even difficult
                >to order seeds from abroad. I figure, at least the stuff from the
                >health food store is organic. In the long run I want to get more
                >into seed saving anyways. I think it is a precondition for natural farming.
                >
                >Dieter
                >
                >--- On Wed, 11/26/08, Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@ telia.com> wrote:
                >
                >From: Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@ telia.com>
                >Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                >To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                >Date: Wednesday, November 26, 2008, 10:33 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Dieter, was the spelt hulled? I am bit doubtful about using hulled
                >spelt as seed.
                >
                >There are various taxonomic systems. I seem to recall that spelt is
                >regarded as a race or form of common wheat (T. aestivum) in at least
                >one of those systems. But normally it is considered as a separate
                >species T.spelta.
                >
                >It seems Hildegard by spelt refers not only to the species (T.
                >spelta) but to all hulled forms (i.e. spelt forms) of wheat, which
                >includes einkorn (T.monococcum) and emmer/zweikorn (T.dicoccon ?).
                >
                >Wheat is believed to have formed via crosses and gene plasm
                >duplications (polyploidi) . Normally multiplication of gene plasm is
                >(up to an optimum level) followed by plants getting bigger, and this
                >is the case also for wheats. The original wheat is the einkorn, which
                >has 14 cromosomes (2n=14). It is believed to have formed from some
                >primitive grass(es) with only 7 cromosomes. Hence einkorn is referred
                >to as diploid, as it has the double (di) number of cromosomes).
                >Zweikorn is tetraploid, with 2n=28. Also durum wheat (T. durum) and
                >others are tetraploid. Both spelt and common wheat have another 14
                >cromosomes (2n=42) and hence are hexaploid (hexa=six). I think the
                >prevailing theory is that another wheat has crossed in here, but I am
                >not sure. (Don't have time to check it up now.) Wheats with the same
                >number of cromosomes can cross to some extent, while those with
                >different number of cromosomes normally don't.
                >
                >BTW for eating whole grains, zweikorn and esp einkorn are definitely
                >preferable to all hexaploid wheats, both common wheat and spelt.
                >
                >Anders
                >
                >At 10:37 2008-11-26, you wrote:
                >
                > >Guenther et al,
                > >
                > >I went to buy 1 kg of spelt at my local health food
                > >store. Yesterday, I did a germination test (a few grains in a bowl
                > >on top of some soaked tissue paper at room temperature) . Today,
                > >less than 12 hours later, I can detect little white things starting
                > >to form on the grains. I'm not sure what kind of spelt I have got;
                > >on the packaging is says Triticum aestivum. In the book about
                > >Hildegard von Bingen it says that Triticum monococcum is still
                > >cultivated in France and that Triticum duococum is still being grown
                > >in Italy, but that the "real" spelt is called Triticum spelta
                > >(something to do with different chromosomes) . At the moment I can't
                > >check how the type I have got figures in all of this. It also says
                > >that the yield with spelt is lower than with wheat, but that spelt
                > >will grow without fertilizers even on poor soil, and that it can
                > >cope with drought and other extreme conditions; just what we need
                > >for Natural Farming.
                > >
                > >We still didn't get any rain. If it continues like this I will try
                > >to sow a small test plot with spelt and then irrigate.
                > >
                > >Dieter Brand
                > >Portugal
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >----------- --------- --------- -------
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Nandan Palaparambil
                Dieter, Usage of chemicals/practices has become a habit.. Some examples.. Mangoes are cultivated heavily and some agents buy them for collecting the fruits
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 28, 2008
                  Dieter,

                  Usage of chemicals/practices has become a habit..

                  Some examples..

                  Mangoes are cultivated heavily and some agents buy them for collecting the fruits before the flowering stage itself. Once they take it, they used to spray endosulfan which is a dangerous chemical. Once there was a mass migration of butterflies from this area during this endosulfan spraying period and later investigation revealed the side effects and media put good coverage and it is banned. Now they use, Sevin not sure how dangerous this is. According to them, without use of this, many mangoes will fall in early stages, and whatever remains will have some worms inside once they are ripe. I will be trying the mangoes without any chemicals and will see how it goes.

                  Recently I met a farmer who is doing paddy cultivation and he uses herbicides for weed control. This is after lot of tilling and you can not even see a single grass in the field. Herbicides are applied after this so that no grass comes after this.

                  My neighbhour wants to remove touch-me-not (Mimosa Pudica) in the field before doing the ginger cultivation. So he is cutting all these and burning it since for thim, these grass will come up again, if you don't burn. But he is collecting it in one place and burning it, not the whole place. So improvements are there in the understanding, but long way to go...

                  Even I have Mimosa Pudica in my field and planning to use sweet potatoes or pumpkins here which are supposed to be good in outgrowing.


                  Making people aware is a big job, but that is the only solution.


                  Regards,
                  Nandan

                  --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                  From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 3:23 AM

                  Anders,

                  Taxonomy seems to be a science of it�s own.� You are right, Triticum
                  aestivum is common wheat.� What I have got is �Espelta� in Portuguese,
                  which is Triticum aestivum subsp. spelta.� They omitted the subspecies on the
                  packaging.� The fact that it is used for cooking (the grains) rather than for
                  baking also shows that it is spelt and not normal wheat.

                  One problem I have got when trying to buy seeds locally is that most seeds are
                  treated with chemicals (red thyram and the like).� When I ask if they have
                  untreated seeds they look at me as if I had made an indecent proposition.� In
                  this part of the World, to use agrochemicals is still considered progressive and
                  enlightened; the more chemicals the better.

                  Dieter







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Dieter Brand
                  Nandan, Thanks for those examples. Yes, the indiscriminate use of chemicals is still spreading; all the more reason for us to find practical solutions for
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 28, 2008
                    Nandan,

                    Thanks for those examples. Yes, the indiscriminate use of chemicals
                    is still spreading; all the more reason for us to find practical
                    solutions for farming/gardening without any chemicals at all. I live
                    in a very poor part of Europe, were many of the older farmers did not
                    learn writing and reading when they were young. This means that many
                    apply toxic chemicals at random without bothering about the
                    recommended doses. Even those that can read often don't bother to
                    look at the instructions of use.

                    I don't have enough water for paddy field cultivation, but looking at
                    pictures from natural farmers in Japan, I think it should be easy to
                    practice natural farming without plowing if there is good soil and
                    enough water for flooding a paddy field.

                    Experienced farmers are often incapable of adopting new methods out of
                    habit or due to economic or social constraints. Without a farming
                    background, we are likely to be more inclined to experiment with new
                    methods, even though we should never arrogantly judge experienced
                    farmers. There often is a reason for what they do when it is anchored
                    in traditional farming practices.

                    Dieter Brand
                    Portugal


                    On 11/28/08, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                    > Dieter,
                    >
                    > Usage of chemicals/practices has become a habit..
                    >
                    > Some examples..
                    >
                    > Mangoes are cultivated heavily and some agents buy them for collecting the
                    > fruits before the flowering stage itself. Once they take it, they used to
                    > spray endosulfan which is a dangerous chemical. Once there was a mass
                    > migration of butterflies from this area during this endosulfan spraying
                    > period and later investigation revealed the side effects and media put good
                    > coverage and it is banned. Now they use, Sevin not sure how dangerous this
                    > is. According to them, without use of this, many mangoes will fall in early
                    > stages, and whatever remains will have some worms inside once they are ripe.
                    > I will be trying the mangoes without any chemicals and will see how it goes.
                    >
                    > Recently I met a farmer who is doing paddy cultivation and he uses
                    > herbicides for weed control. This is after lot of tilling and you can not
                    > even see a single grass in the field. Herbicides are applied after this so
                    > that no grass comes after this.
                    >
                    > My neighbhour wants to remove touch-me-not (Mimosa Pudica) in the field
                    > before doing the ginger cultivation. So he is cutting all these and burning
                    > it since for thim, these grass will come up again, if you don't burn. But he
                    > is collecting it in one place and burning it, not the whole place. So
                    > improvements are there in the understanding, but long way to go...
                    >
                    > Even I have Mimosa Pudica in my field and planning to use sweet potatoes or
                    > pumpkins here which are supposed to be good in outgrowing.
                    >
                    >
                    > Making people aware is a big job, but that is the only solution.
                    >
                    >
                    > Regards,
                    > Nandan
                    >
                    > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                    > From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                    > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                    > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 3:23 AM
                    >
                    > Anders,
                    >
                    > Taxonomy seems to be a science of it's own. You are right, Triticum
                    > aestivum is common wheat. What I have got is "Espelta" in Portuguese,
                    > which is Triticum aestivum subsp. spelta. They omitted the subspecies on
                    > the
                    > packaging. The fact that it is used for cooking (the grains) rather than
                    > for
                    > baking also shows that it is spelt and not normal wheat.
                    >
                    > One problem I have got when trying to buy seeds locally is that most seeds
                    > are
                    > treated with chemicals (red thyram and the like). When I ask if they have
                    > untreated seeds they look at me as if I had made an indecent proposition.
                    > In
                    > this part of the World, to use agrochemicals is still considered progressive
                    > and
                    > enlightened; the more chemicals the better.
                    >
                    > Dieter
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • srinath hr
                    Nandan, As I heard from an agent - who has taken contract for my mango farm, there is no need to spray chemicals, provided 1- If There is no rain / cloudy
                    Message 9 of 11 , Dec 4 7:47 PM
                      Nandan,
                      As I heard from an agent - who has taken contract for my mango farm, there
                      is no need to spray chemicals, provided
                      1- If There is no rain / cloudy weather during flowering season
                      2- If the nights are cold and days are hot --- This is the ideal weather for
                      the Mango flowers to bloom and in this condition, the flowers will be very
                      healthy and not wither out...

                      Recently there were rains in and around my farm (courtesy Cyclone "Nisha")
                      and I could see that many flowers had become pitch dark in color and lots of
                      insects (look like some kind of ants) feeding on them resulting in their
                      fall.. Because of this, my contractor was forced to spray some chemicals on
                      them and it looks like the situation is under control.....

                      I need to do some experiments to see whether we have any natural way of
                      controlling this situation- Unfortunately, I am occupied in my normal work
                      and I am unable to devote time for this.

                      Any other proven suggestions- which will eliminate the use of chemicals, are
                      welcome from our friends in this group...

                      Regards
                      Srinath
                      2008/11/28 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>

                      > Dieter,
                      >
                      > Usage of chemicals/practices has become a habit..
                      >
                      > Some examples..
                      >
                      > Mangoes are cultivated heavily and some agents buy them for collecting the
                      > fruits before the flowering stage itself. Once they take it, they used to
                      > spray endosulfan which is a dangerous chemical. Once there was a mass
                      > migration of butterflies from this area during this endosulfan spraying
                      > period and later investigation revealed the side effects and media put good
                      > coverage and it is banned. Now they use, Sevin not sure how dangerous this
                      > is. According to them, without use of this, many mangoes will fall in early
                      > stages, and whatever remains will have some worms inside once they are ripe.
                      > I will be trying the mangoes without any chemicals and will see how it goes.
                      >
                      > Recently I met a farmer who is doing paddy cultivation and he uses
                      > herbicides for weed control. This is after lot of tilling and you can not
                      > even see a single grass in the field. Herbicides are applied after this so
                      > that no grass comes after this.
                      >
                      > My neighbhour wants to remove touch-me-not (Mimosa Pudica) in the field
                      > before doing the ginger cultivation. So he is cutting all these and burning
                      > it since for thim, these grass will come up again, if you don't burn. But he
                      > is collecting it in one place and burning it, not the whole place. So
                      > improvements are there in the understanding, but long way to go...
                      >
                      > Even I have Mimosa Pudica in my field and planning to use sweet potatoes or
                      > pumpkins here which are supposed to be good in outgrowing.
                      >
                      >
                      > Making people aware is a big job, but that is the only solution.
                      >
                      >
                      > Regards,
                      > Nandan
                      >
                      > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                      > From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                      > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                      > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 3:23 AM
                      >
                      > Anders,
                      >
                      > Taxonomy seems to be a science of it's own. You are right, Triticum
                      > aestivum is common wheat. What I have got is "Espelta" in Portuguese,
                      > which is Triticum aestivum subsp. spelta. They omitted the subspecies on
                      > the
                      > packaging. The fact that it is used for cooking (the grains) rather than
                      > for
                      > baking also shows that it is spelt and not normal wheat.
                      >
                      > One problem I have got when trying to buy seeds locally is that most seeds
                      > are
                      > treated with chemicals (red thyram and the like). When I ask if they have
                      > untreated seeds they look at me as if I had made an indecent proposition.
                      > In
                      > this part of the World, to use agrochemicals is still considered
                      > progressive and
                      > enlightened; the more chemicals the better.
                      >
                      > Dieter
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --

                      Regards

                      Srinath HR


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Nandan Palaparambil
                      Srinath, I am also exploring on this, but decided not to use any chemicals and see the yield. I am still searching for some farmers who grows mangoes
                      Message 10 of 11 , Dec 4 11:18 PM
                        Srinath,

                        I am also exploring on this, but decided not to use any chemicals and see the yield.

                        I am still searching for some farmers who grows mangoes organically.


                        Regards,
                        Nandan

                        --- On Fri, 12/5/08, srinath hr <srinath.hr@...> wrote:
                        From: srinath hr <srinath.hr@...>
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 9:17 AM











                        Nandan,

                        As I heard from an agent - who has taken contract for my mango farm, there

                        is no need to spray chemicals, provided

                        1- If There is no rain / cloudy weather during flowering season

                        2- If the nights are cold and days are hot --- This is the ideal weather for

                        the Mango flowers to bloom and in this condition, the flowers will be very

                        healthy and not wither out...



                        Recently there were rains in and around my farm (courtesy Cyclone "Nisha")

                        and I could see that many flowers had become pitch dark in color and lots of

                        insects (look like some kind of ants) feeding on them resulting in their

                        fall.. Because of this, my contractor was forced to spray some chemicals on

                        them and it looks like the situation is under control.....



                        I need to do some experiments to see whether we have any natural way of

                        controlling this situation- Unfortunately, I am occupied in my normal work

                        and I am unable to devote time for this.



                        Any other proven suggestions- which will eliminate the use of chemicals, are

                        welcome from our friends in this group...



                        Regards

                        Srinath

                        2008/11/28 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@ yahoo.com>



                        > Dieter,

                        >

                        > Usage of chemicals/practices has become a habit..

                        >

                        > Some examples..

                        >

                        > Mangoes are cultivated heavily and some agents buy them for collecting the

                        > fruits before the flowering stage itself. Once they take it, they used to

                        > spray endosulfan which is a dangerous chemical. Once there was a mass

                        > migration of butterflies from this area during this endosulfan spraying

                        > period and later investigation revealed the side effects and media put good

                        > coverage and it is banned. Now they use, Sevin not sure how dangerous this

                        > is. According to them, without use of this, many mangoes will fall in early

                        > stages, and whatever remains will have some worms inside once they are ripe.

                        > I will be trying the mangoes without any chemicals and will see how it goes.

                        >

                        > Recently I met a farmer who is doing paddy cultivation and he uses

                        > herbicides for weed control. This is after lot of tilling and you can not

                        > even see a single grass in the field. Herbicides are applied after this so

                        > that no grass comes after this.

                        >

                        > My neighbhour wants to remove touch-me-not (Mimosa Pudica) in the field

                        > before doing the ginger cultivation. So he is cutting all these and burning

                        > it since for thim, these grass will come up again, if you don't burn. But he

                        > is collecting it in one place and burning it, not the whole place. So

                        > improvements are there in the understanding, but long way to go...

                        >

                        > Even I have Mimosa Pudica in my field and planning to use sweet potatoes or

                        > pumpkins here which are supposed to be good in outgrowing.

                        >

                        >

                        > Making people aware is a big job, but that is the only solution.

                        >

                        >

                        > Regards,

                        > Nandan

                        >

                        > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com> wrote:

                        > From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com>

                        > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already

                        > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                        > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 3:23 AM

                        >

                        > Anders,

                        >

                        > Taxonomy seems to be a science of it's own. You are right, Triticum

                        > aestivum is common wheat. What I have got is "Espelta" in Portuguese,

                        > which is Triticum aestivum subsp. spelta. They omitted the subspecies on

                        > the

                        > packaging. The fact that it is used for cooking (the grains) rather than

                        > for

                        > baking also shows that it is spelt and not normal wheat.

                        >

                        > One problem I have got when trying to buy seeds locally is that most seeds

                        > are

                        > treated with chemicals (red thyram and the like). When I ask if they have

                        > untreated seeds they look at me as if I had made an indecent proposition.

                        > In

                        > this part of the World, to use agrochemicals is still considered

                        > progressive and

                        > enlightened; the more chemicals the better.

                        >

                        > Dieter

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        >

                        >

                        > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                        >

                        > Yahoo! Groups Links

                        >

                        >

                        >

                        >



                        --



                        Regards



                        Srinath HR



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Nandan Palaparambil
                        Srinath, Here is one organic farmer s experience on fruit fly... His farm is within 15KMs from my farm and does organic farming. Even though he calls himself
                        Message 11 of 11 , Dec 9 10:05 PM
                          Srinath,

                          Here is one organic farmer's experience on fruit fly...

                          His farm is within 15KMs from my farm and does organic farming. Even though he calls himself as organic farmer, he does not bother to make any compost, but mainly mulches and use cow dung as manure. He has been doing it for 15 years and still he has mangoes having the same fruit fly problems, when there is untimely rain. The yield is just 1/4th compared to the yield of applying the chemicals, still he does not use any chemicals.

                          According to him, the issue is much less with local mango varieties compared to the ones brought from other parts of the country. So it looks like, the best option will be to cultivate the local mango varieties, this also supports the seed saving theory.


                          Regards,
                          Nandan
                          NF, Kerala, India

                          --- On Fri, 12/5/08, srinath hr <srinath.hr@...> wrote:
                          From: srinath hr <srinath.hr@...>
                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already
                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 9:17 AM











                          Nandan,

                          As I heard from an agent - who has taken contract for my mango farm, there

                          is no need to spray chemicals, provided

                          1- If There is no rain / cloudy weather during flowering season

                          2- If the nights are cold and days are hot --- This is the ideal weather for

                          the Mango flowers to bloom and in this condition, the flowers will be very

                          healthy and not wither out...



                          Recently there were rains in and around my farm (courtesy Cyclone "Nisha")

                          and I could see that many flowers had become pitch dark in color and lots of

                          insects (look like some kind of ants) feeding on them resulting in their

                          fall.. Because of this, my contractor was forced to spray some chemicals on

                          them and it looks like the situation is under control.....



                          I need to do some experiments to see whether we have any natural way of

                          controlling this situation- Unfortunately, I am occupied in my normal work

                          and I am unable to devote time for this.



                          Any other proven suggestions- which will eliminate the use of chemicals, are

                          welcome from our friends in this group...



                          Regards

                          Srinath

                          2008/11/28 Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@ yahoo.com>



                          > Dieter,

                          >

                          > Usage of chemicals/practices has become a habit..

                          >

                          > Some examples..

                          >

                          > Mangoes are cultivated heavily and some agents buy them for collecting the

                          > fruits before the flowering stage itself. Once they take it, they used to

                          > spray endosulfan which is a dangerous chemical. Once there was a mass

                          > migration of butterflies from this area during this endosulfan spraying

                          > period and later investigation revealed the side effects and media put good

                          > coverage and it is banned. Now they use, Sevin not sure how dangerous this

                          > is. According to them, without use of this, many mangoes will fall in early

                          > stages, and whatever remains will have some worms inside once they are ripe.

                          > I will be trying the mangoes without any chemicals and will see how it goes.

                          >

                          > Recently I met a farmer who is doing paddy cultivation and he uses

                          > herbicides for weed control. This is after lot of tilling and you can not

                          > even see a single grass in the field. Herbicides are applied after this so

                          > that no grass comes after this.

                          >

                          > My neighbhour wants to remove touch-me-not (Mimosa Pudica) in the field

                          > before doing the ginger cultivation. So he is cutting all these and burning

                          > it since for thim, these grass will come up again, if you don't burn. But he

                          > is collecting it in one place and burning it, not the whole place. So

                          > improvements are there in the understanding, but long way to go...

                          >

                          > Even I have Mimosa Pudica in my field and planning to use sweet potatoes or

                          > pumpkins here which are supposed to be good in outgrowing.

                          >

                          >

                          > Making people aware is a big job, but that is the only solution.

                          >

                          >

                          > Regards,

                          > Nandan

                          >

                          > --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com> wrote:

                          > From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com>

                          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] The spelt germinates already

                          > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                          > Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 3:23 AM

                          >

                          > Anders,

                          >

                          > Taxonomy seems to be a science of it's own. You are right, Triticum

                          > aestivum is common wheat. What I have got is "Espelta" in Portuguese,

                          > which is Triticum aestivum subsp. spelta. They omitted the subspecies on

                          > the

                          > packaging. The fact that it is used for cooking (the grains) rather than

                          > for

                          > baking also shows that it is spelt and not normal wheat.

                          >

                          > One problem I have got when trying to buy seeds locally is that most seeds

                          > are

                          > treated with chemicals (red thyram and the like). When I ask if they have

                          > untreated seeds they look at me as if I had made an indecent proposition.

                          > In

                          > this part of the World, to use agrochemicals is still considered

                          > progressive and

                          > enlightened; the more chemicals the better.

                          >

                          > Dieter

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          >

                          >

                          > ------------ --------- --------- ------

                          >

                          > Yahoo! Groups Links

                          >

                          >

                          >

                          >



                          --



                          Regards



                          Srinath HR



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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