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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Greywater Greenhouse

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  • Rex Teague
    ... I m not familiar with Del Porto s work. Wolverton is another, have you read his latest book... I m trying to track down a copy here?
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 6, 2002
      On 5 Aug 02, Zack Domike wrote:

      > I have studied the installations of David Del Porto, in the Boston
      > area. There is precious little information on the internet. The
      > engineering is kind of basic, in that you try to keep the water
      > moving very slowly.

      I'm not familiar with Del Porto's work. Wolverton is another, have
      you read his latest book... I'm trying to track down a copy here?
      http://www.wolvertonenvironmental.com

      > A critical item is that the plastic clothing lint, oil and
      > detergent (as opposed to soap) ingredients be minimized. Any
      > other Red Flags?

      Current thoughts are a carousel worm pit toilet, the blackwater to be
      combined with the household greywater which will be treated through
      a reedbed(s) then onto a bioremediation (osier willow) bed.

      Points of uncertainty that I'm steadily researching are:
      1. The pros and cons of horizontal versus vertical reedbeds.
      2. Whether the greywater grease will glug up the reedbed.
      3. Specifications for a self build exercise.

      As you note Internet information is scanty, mainly tantalising details
      by people selling their services. A few sites that may help sort the
      "Red Flags":
      http://www.elementalsolutions.co.uk
      http://www.weblife.org/humanure
      http://www.earthlife.org.za/ghouse/index.htm
      http://www.compostingtoilet.org

      Cheerio... Rex
    • J. P.
      ... this may be a basic question from a greywater beginner, but how do you tell what is detergent and what is soap? I m thinking of laundry and shower here,
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 6, 2002
        > A critical item is that the plastic clothing lint, oil and
        > detergent (as opposed to soap) ingredients be minimized. Any
        > other Red Flags?

        this may be a basic question from a greywater beginner, but how do you tell
        what is detergent and what is soap? I'm thinking of laundry and shower
        here, nothing blacker than that. do you have to make your own soap or are
        there brands that are greywater acceptable? I have never found a listing,
        either of acceptable/unacceptable ingredients, nor of brand names.

        Joanne
        Los Angeles
      • souscayrous
        Hello Rex, I m also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other things) and would mention Art Ludwig s website http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 6, 2002
          Hello Rex,
          I'm also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other things) and
          would mention Art Ludwig's website http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm for
          much excellent information on greywater and its use.
          Have you heard of Tom Watson's 'Watson Wick' system? It is simply a gravel
          filled trench (sand is also possible) through which the greywater and
          blackwater passes, feeding the trees you plant upon this medium - which I
          think from your post is your ultimate intention. I've seen a 'Watson Wick'
          working and it seemed to be coping with the small domestic flows it was
          designed for, certainly the trees were flourishing.
          Have you tried web searches using 'constructed wetland' (well, you might not
          of thought of it! - though considering your usual thoroughness when it comes
          to web links I doubt it).
          There have also been email threads on the pc list about reed beds, you might
          want to search their archives (I remember Robyn Francis has a couple at her
          place).


          Good Luck and let me know if you happen upon a particularly fruitful source
          of information.

          Souscayrous


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Rex Teague [mailto:dibblegardens@...]
          Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:23 AM
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Greywater Greenhouse

          On 5 Aug 02, Zack Domike wrote:

          > I have studied the installations of David Del Porto, in the Boston
          > area. There is precious little information on the internet. The
          > engineering is kind of basic, in that you try to keep the water
          > moving very slowly.

          I'm not familiar with Del Porto's work. Wolverton is another, have
          you read his latest book... I'm trying to track down a copy here?
          http://www.wolvertonenvironmental.com

          > A critical item is that the plastic clothing lint, oil and
          > detergent (as opposed to soap) ingredients be minimized. Any
          > other Red Flags?

          Current thoughts are a carousel worm pit toilet, the blackwater to be
          combined with the household greywater which will be treated through
          a reedbed(s) then onto a bioremediation (osier willow) bed.

          Points of uncertainty that I'm steadily researching are:
          1. The pros and cons of horizontal versus vertical reedbeds.
          2. Whether the greywater grease will glug up the reedbed.
          3. Specifications for a self build exercise.

          As you note Internet information is scanty, mainly tantalising details
          by people selling their services. A few sites that may help sort the
          "Red Flags":
          http://www.elementalsolutions.co.uk
          http://www.weblife.org/humanure
          http://www.earthlife.org.za/ghouse/index.htm
          http://www.compostingtoilet.org

          Cheerio... Rex




          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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        • Xavier Dequaire
          To understand detergents you might want to read this about legislation:
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 7, 2002
            To understand detergents you might want to read this about legislation:
            http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/chemicals/detergents/publicconsult/contrib/collectif.pdf
            (English version at page 8)
            and what the commision came with
            http://europa.eu.int/comm/environment/ecolabel/pdf/laundry_detergents/draftcriteria_250202.pdf

            Hand Dishwashing Detergents
            http://www.enviro-choice.org.nz/Criteria/EC-01-98%20Hand%20Dishwashing%20Detergents.pdf

            To make your own soap search "make soap" or look at
            http://www.itdg.org/html/technical_enquiries/docs/soapmaking.pdf

            I was recommanded the reading of "Purity and Danger: An Analysis of the Concepts of Pollution and Taboo" by Mary Douglas, 1966

            I my self use an artificial wetland for Grey water treatment- It seems to work well.
            I need to build a dam as recipient.

            This is quite straighforward to build and easy to calculate: 2-5 m2 per inhabitant
            Surface is combined wetland and dam.
            I use a plastic linen to keep impermeable (because of municipal authorities)
            Alternativelly tramped clay or a mixture of cow dung and freshly cut grass are said to work fine

            Wetland provide anaerobic treatment, dam aerobic
            Have a filter upfront to catch solid matters and grease,
            FIlter: I use wood chips in a jute bag that I change and compost regularly.
            It can be nice to have a water flow to allow extra oxygenization.

            We just use so called 90% biologically degradable (OECD def) washing products, though I am not sure it is the best.

            For toilet I use a composting toilet, with partly separating urine for fertilizing (20% dillution in water)
            (For men just peeing is direct on recipient (tres/bushes)
            I am the only one to do a selective choice of recipients- male guests go to a corner of the garden.



            "Les forces d'amours sont humaines, les forces de destructions sont technologiques" Jacques Salom�

            06.08.2002 18:27:13, "souscayrous" <souscayrous@...> a �crit:

            >
            >
            > �: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
            >
            > De: "souscayrous" <souscayrous@...>
            > Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2002 18:27:13 +0200
            > Sujet:RE: [fukuoka_farming] Greywater Greenhouse
            >
            >
            >
            > Hello Rex,
            > I'm also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other
            > things) and
            > would mention Art Ludwig's website http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm for
            > much excellent information on greywater and its use.
            > Have you heard of Tom Watson's 'Watson Wick' system? It is simply a gravel
            > filled trench (sand is also possible) through which the greywater and
            > blackwater passes, feeding the trees you plant upon this medium - which I
            > think from your post is your ultimate intention. I've seen a 'Watson Wick'
            > working and it seemed to be coping with the small domestic flows it was
            > designed for, certainly the trees were flourishing.
            > Have you tried web searches using 'constructed wetland' (well, you might not
            > of thought of it! - though considering your usual thoroughness when it comes
            > to web links I doubt it).
            > There have also been email threads on the pc list about reed beds, you might
            > want to search their archives (I remember Robyn Francis has a couple at her
            > place).
            >
            >
            > Good Luck and let me know if you happen upon a particularly fruitful source
            > of information.
            >
            > Souscayrous
            >
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Rex Teague [mailto:dibblegardens@...]
            > Sent: Tuesday, August 06, 2002 10:23 AM
            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Greywater Greenhouse
            >
            > On 5 Aug 02, Zack Domike wrote:
            >
            > > I have studied the installations of David Del Porto, in the Boston
            > > area. There is precious little information on the internet. The
            > > engineering is kind of basic, in that you try to keep the water
            > > moving very slowly.
            >
            > I'm not familiar with Del Porto's work. Wolverton is another, have
            > you read his latest book... I'm trying to track down a copy here?
            > http://www.wolvertonenvironmental.com
            >
            > > A critical item is that the plastic clothing lint, oil and
            > > detergent (as opposed to soap) ingredients be minimized. Any
            > > other Red Flags?
            >
            > Current thoughts are a carousel worm pit toilet, the blackwater to be
            > combined with the household greywater which will be treated through
            > a reedbed(s) then onto a bioremediation (osier willow) bed.
            >
            > Points of uncertainty that I'm steadily researching are:
            > 1. The pros and cons of horizontal versus vertical reedbeds.
            > 2. Whether the greywater grease will glug up the reedbed.
            > 3. Specifications for a self build exercise.
            >
            > As you note Internet information is scanty, mainly tantalising details
            > by people selling their services. A few sites that may help sort the
            > "Red Flags":
            > http://www.elementalsolutions.co.uk
            > http://www.weblife.org/humanure
            > http://www.earthlife.org.za/ghouse/index.htm
            > http://www.compostingtoilet.org
            >
            > Cheerio... Rex
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
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          • Rex Teague
            ... Thanks for the link but again the real reason for the website is marketing his books and services. Admittedly that s from a brief visit however after the
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 9, 2002
              On 6 Aug 02, souscayrous wrote:

              > I'm also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other
              > things) and would mention Art Ludwig's website
              > http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm for much excellent information
              > on greywater and its use.

              Thanks for the link but again the real reason for the website is
              marketing his books and services. Admittedly that's from a brief visit
              however after the amount of information I've sifted through my
              antenna for the essence is fairly well tuned. 8-)

              > Have you heard of Tom Watson's 'Watson Wick' system? It is simply a
              > gravel filled trench (sand is also possible) through which the
              > greywater and blackwater passes, feeding the trees you plant upon
              > this medium - which I think from your post is your ultimate
              > intention. I've seen a 'Watson Wick' working and it seemed to be
              > coping with the small domestic flows it was designed for,
              > certainly the trees were flourishing.

              Yes... my osier bed proposal will have a similar purpose.

              > Have you tried web searches using 'constructed wetland' (well, you
              > might not of thought of it! - though considering your usual
              > thoroughness when it comes to web links I doubt it). There have
              > also been email threads on the pc list about reed beds, you might
              > want to search their archives (I remember Robyn Francis has a
              > couple at her place).

              I have directed questions to Robyn on the [permaculture] list... they
              weren't answered. Lawrence London has one of his large compilation
              files specifically on "constructed wetlands".

              > Good Luck and let me know if you happen upon a particularly fruitful
              > source of information.

              Will do... Rex
            • Rex Teague
              ... Dr. Kaethe Seidel demonstated that a vast array of nasties, including low level radiation, can be cleaned up by plants. The interview at
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 9, 2002
                On 6 Aug 02, J. P. wrote:

                > this may be a basic question from a greywater beginner, but how do you
                > tell what is detergent and what is soap? I'm thinking of laundry and
                > shower here, nothing blacker than that. do you have to make your own
                > soap or are there brands that are greywater acceptable? I have never
                > found a listing, either of acceptable/unacceptable ingredients, nor of
                > brand names.

                Dr. Kaethe Seidel demonstated that a vast array of nasties, including
                low level radiation, can be cleaned up by plants. The interview at
                http://www.ratical.org/LifeWeb/Articles/rushes.txt has been an
                inspiration to me for several years. To quote a portion:

                "We have been testing and demonstrating this for many years, and
                no one else had done it before us. I came here with that intention -
                to show that waters must first be reconstituted with plants. And if
                this were understood and acted on wherever dirty effluents are
                poured into bodies of water, we would not have such problems
                today. Unfortunately, biologists have never adequately concerned
                themselves with plants. Even at our Max Planck Institute, there were
                well known chemists, zoologists, microbiologists, but no one
                concerned with plants. In fact, they laughed at me."

                Cheerio... Rex
              • Robert Monie
                Hello Rex, John Todd, who wrote the foreword to Toby Hemenway s Gaia s Garden, is an acknowledged master at using plants and microorganisms to break down
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 10, 2002
                  Hello Rex,
                  John Todd, who wrote the foreword to Toby Hemenway's "Gaia's Garden," is an acknowledged master at using plants and microorganisms to break down sewage and purify water. He and his wife Nancy have developed a system called "The Living Machine" that runs sewage and other wastes through a series of mini-ecospheres (housed in tubs) that eventually produces water clean enough for irrigation.
                  Todd's methods are presented in two older books (now out of print): "Bioshelters, Ocean Arks, City Farming: Ecology as the Basis of Design," and "What Do We Use for Lifeboats when the Ship Goes Down? Conversations with Robert Reines, John Todd, Ian McHarg, Paolo Soleri, and Richard Saul Wurtman."
                  His most recent book (still in print), co-authored with Nancy, is ""From Eco-Cities to Living Machines."
                  Todd's approach works well enough to handle the entire Municipal Sewage Treatment Plant for city of Burlington, Vermont. He manages the citys sewage load without using chlorine or any other chemicals.
                  His two web sites are http://www.oceanarks.org/ and http://www.livingmachines.com/ and he is amply represented on google.com under "John Todd, living machines."
                  Todd has worked with several architects and designers, including Paolo Soleri and Maya Linn. Todd is an eloquent advocate of hydroponics systems, but, from his introduction to Gaia's Garden, one must conclude that he has some interest in permaculture/forest farming/ natural farming as well.
                  Are you already familiar with Tood's Living Machines, Rex? I'd be interested in your opinion.
                  Bob Monie
                  Rex Teague wrote:On 6 Aug 02, souscayrous wrote:

                  > I'm also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other
                  > things) and would mention Art Ludwig's website
                  > http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm for much excellent information
                  > on greywater and its use.

                  Thanks for the link but again the real reason for the website is
                  marketing his books and services. Admittedly that's from a brief visit
                  however after the amount of information I've sifted through my
                  antenna for the essence is fairly well tuned. 8-)

                  > Have you heard of Tom Watson's 'Watson Wick' system? It is simply a
                  > gravel filled trench (sand is also possible) through which the
                  > greywater and blackwater passes, feeding the trees you plant upon
                  > this medium - which I think from your post is your ultimate
                  > intention. I've seen a 'Watson Wick' working and it seemed to be
                  > coping with the small domestic flows it was designed for,
                  > certainly the trees were flourishing.

                  Yes... my osier bed proposal will have a similar purpose.

                  > Have you tried web searches using 'constructed wetland' (well, you
                  > might not of thought of it! - though considering your usual
                  > thoroughness when it comes to web links I doubt it). There have
                  > also been email threads on the pc list about reed beds, you might
                  > want to search their archives (I remember Robyn Francis has a
                  > couple at her place).

                  I have directed questions to Robyn on the [permaculture] list... they
                  weren't answered. Lawrence London has one of his large compilation
                  files specifically on "constructed wetlands".

                  > Good Luck and let me know if you happen upon a particularly fruitful
                  > source of information.

                  Will do... Rex

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                • Tookie
                  Hi Bob and Rex, There is also Dean Cameron who invented the Dowmus system widely used in Australia. He has taken that abit further and called it the Biolytix
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 10, 2002
                    Hi Bob and Rex,

                    There is also Dean Cameron who invented the Dowmus system widely used in
                    Australia. He has taken that abit further and called it the Biolytix system
                    http://www.biolytix.com/index.htm that is being used very successfully in
                    many large develpments etc. We are bringing them on as consultants in our
                    eco-village project and it is likely that we will use this entire system
                    should our project get through council. In any case - their website is
                    interesting as well.

                    Tookie

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Robert Monie [mailto:bobm20001@...]
                    Sent: Sunday, 11 August 2002 04:07
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Greywater Greenhouse



                    Hello Rex,
                    John Todd, who wrote the foreword to Toby Hemenway's "Gaia's Garden," is an
                    acknowledged master at using plants and microorganisms to break down sewage
                    and purify water. He and his wife Nancy have developed a system called "The
                    Living Machine" that runs sewage and other wastes through a series of
                    mini-ecospheres (housed in tubs) that eventually produces water clean enough
                    for irrigation.
                    Todd's methods are presented in two older books (now out of print):
                    "Bioshelters, Ocean Arks, City Farming: Ecology as the Basis of Design," and
                    "What Do We Use for Lifeboats when the Ship Goes Down? Conversations with
                    Robert Reines, John Todd, Ian McHarg, Paolo Soleri, and Richard Saul
                    Wurtman."
                    His most recent book (still in print), co-authored with Nancy, is ""From
                    Eco-Cities to Living Machines."
                    Todd's approach works well enough to handle the entire Municipal Sewage
                    Treatment Plant for city of Burlington, Vermont. He manages the citys
                    sewage load without using chlorine or any other chemicals.
                    His two web sites are http://www.oceanarks.org/ and
                    http://www.livingmachines.com/ and he is amply represented on google.com
                    under "John Todd, living machines."
                    Todd has worked with several architects and designers, including Paolo
                    Soleri and Maya Linn. Todd is an eloquent advocate of hydroponics systems,
                    but, from his introduction to Gaia's Garden, one must conclude that he has
                    some interest in permaculture/forest farming/ natural farming as well.
                    Are you already familiar with Tood's Living Machines, Rex? I'd be
                    interested in your opinion.
                    Bob Monie
                    Rex Teague wrote:On 6 Aug 02, souscayrous wrote:

                    > I'm also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other
                    > things) and would mention Art Ludwig's website
                    > http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm for much excellent information
                    > on greywater and its use.

                    Thanks for the link but again the real reason for the website is
                    marketing his books and services. Admittedly that's from a brief visit
                    however after the amount of information I've sifted through my
                    antenna for the essence is fairly well tuned. 8-)

                    > Have you heard of Tom Watson's 'Watson Wick' system? It is simply a
                    > gravel filled trench (sand is also possible) through which the
                    > greywater and blackwater passes, feeding the trees you plant upon
                    > this medium - which I think from your post is your ultimate
                    > intention. I've seen a 'Watson Wick' working and it seemed to be
                    > coping with the small domestic flows it was designed for,
                    > certainly the trees were flourishing.

                    Yes... my osier bed proposal will have a similar purpose.

                    > Have you tried web searches using 'constructed wetland' (well, you
                    > might not of thought of it! - though considering your usual
                    > thoroughness when it comes to web links I doubt it). There have
                    > also been email threads on the pc list about reed beds, you might
                    > want to search their archives (I remember Robyn Francis has a
                    > couple at her place).

                    I have directed questions to Robyn on the [permaculture] list... they
                    weren't answered. Lawrence London has one of his large compilation
                    files specifically on "constructed wetlands".

                    > Good Luck and let me know if you happen upon a particularly fruitful
                    > source of information.

                    Will do... Rex

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                  • Wendy
                    Hi Robert, I ve only glancing at the Todds work, but with the little I did felt, for me, that it might be a bit elaborate with machines and all. I m always
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 24, 2002
                      Hi Robert,

                      I've only glancing at the Todds' work, but with the little I did felt, for
                      me, that it might be a bit elaborate with machines and all. I'm always
                      looking toward simple, local, earth-based working with nature and its' laws
                      but simple vs. elaborate. What do you think knowing their work better?
                      take care,
                      wendy
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Robert Monie" <bobm20001@...>
                      To: <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Saturday, August 10, 2002 11:06 AM
                      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] Greywater Greenhouse


                      >
                      > Hello Rex,
                      > John Todd, who wrote the foreword to Toby Hemenway's "Gaia's Garden," is
                      an acknowledged master at using plants and microorganisms to break down
                      sewage and purify water. He and his wife Nancy have developed a system
                      called "The Living Machine" that runs sewage and other wastes through a
                      series of mini-ecospheres (housed in tubs) that eventually produces water
                      clean enough for irrigation.
                      > Todd's methods are presented in two older books (now out of print):
                      "Bioshelters, Ocean Arks, City Farming: Ecology as the Basis of Design," and
                      "What Do We Use for Lifeboats when the Ship Goes Down? Conversations with
                      Robert Reines, John Todd, Ian McHarg, Paolo Soleri, and Richard Saul
                      Wurtman."
                      > His most recent book (still in print), co-authored with Nancy, is ""From
                      Eco-Cities to Living Machines."
                      > Todd's approach works well enough to handle the entire Municipal Sewage
                      Treatment Plant for city of Burlington, Vermont. He manages the citys
                      sewage load without using chlorine or any other chemicals.
                      > His two web sites are http://www.oceanarks.org/ and
                      http://www.livingmachines.com/ and he is amply represented on google.com
                      under "John Todd, living machines."
                      > Todd has worked with several architects and designers, including Paolo
                      Soleri and Maya Linn. Todd is an eloquent advocate of hydroponics systems,
                      but, from his introduction to Gaia's Garden, one must conclude that he has
                      some interest in permaculture/forest farming/ natural farming as well.
                      > Are you already familiar with Tood's Living Machines, Rex? I'd be
                      interested in your opinion.
                      > Bob Monie
                      > Rex Teague wrote:On 6 Aug 02, souscayrous wrote:
                      >
                      > > I'm also in the process of researching reedbeds (amongst other
                      > > things) and would mention Art Ludwig's website
                      > > http://www.oasisdesign.net/index.htm for much excellent information
                      > > on greywater and its use.
                      >
                      > Thanks for the link but again the real reason for the website is
                      > marketing his books and services. Admittedly that's from a brief visit
                      > however after the amount of information I've sifted through my
                      > antenna for the essence is fairly well tuned. 8-)
                      >
                      > > Have you heard of Tom Watson's 'Watson Wick' system? It is simply a
                      > > gravel filled trench (sand is also possible) through which the
                      > > greywater and blackwater passes, feeding the trees you plant upon
                      > > this medium - which I think from your post is your ultimate
                      > > intention. I've seen a 'Watson Wick' working and it seemed to be
                      > > coping with the small domestic flows it was designed for,
                      > > certainly the trees were flourishing.
                      >
                      > Yes... my osier bed proposal will have a similar purpose.
                      >
                      > > Have you tried web searches using 'constructed wetland' (well, you
                      > > might not of thought of it! - though considering your usual
                      > > thoroughness when it comes to web links I doubt it). There have
                      > > also been email threads on the pc list about reed beds, you might
                      > > want to search their archives (I remember Robyn Francis has a
                      > > couple at her place).
                      >
                      > I have directed questions to Robyn on the [permaculture] list... they
                      > weren't answered. Lawrence London has one of his large compilation
                      > files specifically on "constructed wetlands".
                      >
                      > > Good Luck and let me know if you happen upon a particularly fruitful
                      > > source of information.
                      >
                      > Will do... Rex
                      >
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