Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming

Expand Messages
  • Anders Skarlind
    The first link I find is this http://www.notill.org/past_conf/wc08/watson_weedcontrol.pdf The first lines of text I read are these: Weed control in no till is
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      The first link I find is this
      http://www.notill.org/past_conf/wc08/watson_weedcontrol.pdf

      The first lines of text I read are these:
      "Weed control in no till is not as simple as spraying a wide variety
      of herbicides to control every
      weed that's out there to contend with. The use of herbicides is way
      down the list on practices we use
      in no till to control weeds in our fields. Cultural practices are
      much more effective than herbicides in
      reducing weed pressure in the growing crop. Herbicide use in no till
      is to control the small fraction of
      weeds that escape the cultural practices that are in place."

      How can this be very close to Fukuoka farming? Most people using
      herbicides are keen on pointing out that they don't use them more
      than necessary. He uses herbicides and it seems he doesn't cooperate
      with weeds, but (just?) wants to eliminate them. Still I think parts
      of this is probably good, because technology is developed that can be
      used for organic no-till. But even mainstream organics is against
      weeds, and doesn't want to cooperate with them.

      Anders


      At 09:24 2008-10-05, you wrote:
      >Dear friends,
      >Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
      >Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
      >straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
      >.This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
      >farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
      >Thanks
      >Raju Tittus
      >
      >------------------------------------
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
    • Raju Titus
      Dear friends, I forgot sending site URL please go on to this www.npnrd.org . Raju ... From: Raju Titus Date: Oct 5, 2008 12:54 PM
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear friends,
        I forgot sending site URL please go on to this www.npnrd.org .
        Raju

        ---------- Forwarded message ----------
        From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
        Date: Oct 5, 2008 12:54 PM
        Subject: No-Till farming
        To: fukuoka farming <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>


        Dear friends,
        Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
        Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
        straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
        .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
        farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
        Thanks
        Raju Tittus
      • Raju Titus
        Dear friends, In Fukuoka farming sowing in crop residues without tilling is most important. No-Till Organic farming is better than No-Till conservative farming
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear friends,
          In Fukuoka farming sowing in crop residues without tilling is most
          important. No-Till Organic farming is better than No-Till conservative
          farming because they are not using chemicals.. If we do not till we
          conserve water and soil.When we conserve soil we can reduce
          fertilizer. The cover crop of green or dried in the form of crop
          residues control weeds by shade, no any weed killer is required.As per
          the no till notes written by Mark , mulching is better than weed
          killer.This is a Road back to Nature.
          Raju


          On 10/5/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
          > Dear friends,
          > I forgot sending site URL please go on to this www.npnrd.org .
          > Raju
          >
          > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
          > From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
          > Date: Oct 5, 2008 12:54 PM
          > Subject: No-Till farming
          > To: fukuoka farming <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
          >
          >
          > Dear friends,
          > Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
          > Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
          > straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
          > .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
          > farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
          > Thanks
          > Raju Tittus
          >
        • John Warner
          Hello Fukuokans, We have been practicing hand-scale, no-tillage growing for a dozen years and are making enough money at it to support our family. Within the
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Fukuokans,

            We have been practicing hand-scale, no-tillage growing for a dozen years and are making enough money at it to support our family. Within the past year, since we retired our sickle bar mower and replaced it with a scythe, allows us to make the claim that we make no direct use of fossil fuel requiring inputs such as tillers, mowers, shredders and the like. To be sure, there are still indirect inputs such as vehicle transportation of inputs [mulch material] to our site by commercial landscape maintenance gardeners and transporting our products to the farmers market for sale.

            A key to making this work is following Fukuoka's rejection of making compost. I regard compost making as the greatest waste of time ever invented in the practice of horticulture. First you have to haul crop wastes out of the garden and throw them in a pile then try to turn that stringy trash with a shovel or fork and then haul them back again. Haha, haha, what tooth gritting folly! We leave wide alleyways between the beds where we throw crop residues and what weeds that may work their way up through the mulch to be crushed and trampled under foot after being dried by the summer sun. This also works well in our cool, moist winters too which favor decomposition of foot compacted plant material. Many [it would be laughable if it were not so sad] suffer through all this labor under the illusion that they are making "fertilizer" in their compost piles. Lesson number one in the most elementary chemistry class is that [fertilizer] "elements cannot be created or destroyed" They can only be recombined with other elements to make compounds [or moved from place to place].

            If one wishes to have a sustainably productive garden, one must make use of out of garden, or at least out of bed, inputs. "Cut and carry" is a term used in African hand-scale livestock production whereby the husbandperson goes out into the greater countryside, or perhaps into the commons, and carries back fodder for her penned up animals. This practice can be more profitably applied to what Bob Monie calls "vegan agriculture" [or something on that order] and used for feeding food plants instead of animals because, through the process of photosynthesis, the energy in the mulch materials is returned to the plant foods produced in the garden. When fed to livestock, most of that energy is lost to entropy and the forager will need to gather many times more to sustain his caloric requirement. As a general rule, I figure that a cartful of mulch hauled into the garden will, over time, produce a similar cartful that can be hauled out but there will be a little loss to leakage into the atmosphere and deeper soil.

            For information in scythes visit http://www.scytheconnection.com. I bought a scythe from them and can highly recommend their product and service. For our taller, more deeply rooted crops, we first clear beds with a scythe, then cut roots just below the surface with a round point shovel and toss stumps into the alleyways before remulching.

            For more information on our Whole Systems model and method, visit http://www.WholeSystemsAg.org. Nothing to sell here.

            More information on "cut and carry" can be found with an in quotes search but you will need to weed out nonagricultural uses of the term.

            Good wishes all,

            John Warner, near Fresno, California
            Hand-scale, no-tillage market grower since 1996
            http://www,wholesystemsag.org






            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Raju Titus
            To: fukuoka farming
            Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:24 AM
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming


            Dear friends,
            Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
            Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
            straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
            .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
            farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
            Thanks
            Raju Tittus




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dieter Brand
            Raju,   We have been through this before.  This link, like most no-till links you have posted before, is about using herbicides to kill weeds.  That is NOT
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              Raju,
               
              We have been through this before.  This link, like most no-till links you have posted before, is about using herbicides to kill weeds.  That is NOT natural farming.
               
              Further, as I have repeatedly mentioned, in dry-land farming seeds germinate and crops grow without a single drop of rain, that is not possible without tilling.
               
              Dieter Brand
              Portugal


              --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

              From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming
              To: "fukuoka farming" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 8:24 AM






              Dear friends,
              Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
              Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
              straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
              .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
              farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
              Thanks
              Raju Tittus

















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dieter Brand
              John,   I have compared (in thereory and in practice) heap composting to field or in-place composting for a number of years.  Whenever I have tried to bring
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                John,
                 
                I have compared (in thereory and in practice) heap composting to field or in-place composting for a number of years.  Whenever I have tried to bring the discussion to this subject on this list or in other groups, I have encountered a surprising lack of interest; which I find surprising because the subject is at the very heart of what distinguishes Natural Farming from other types of farming or gardening.
                 
                Needless to say, like you, I'm in favor of in place-place composting and have reduced my heap composting from more than 200 wheel barrows per annum a few years ago to less than 50 at present.  Having said this, I think it is however dangerous to generalize, while I agree that, in principal, in-place composting involves fewer losses and makes better use of the available biomass, we need to understand that different places, different climates etc. require different methods.  From my reading of Fukuoka, I believe he understood this.
                 
                In some places heap composting can be of advantage, while in other places manure may be the best way of returning organic matter to the soil.  There are also cultural factors that need to be taken into account.  It is both ignorant and arrogant to insist that one method is best for all.  I don't believe that Fukuoka would have claimed such a thing.
                 
                Dieter Brand
                Portugal
                 
                PS: I like your idea of composting by trampling.  I think this group should be about exchanging practical information about what works best in our experience and not about telling other what to do.



                --- On Sun, 10/5/08, John Warner <daddyoat@...> wrote:

                From: John Warner <daddyoat@...>
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 5:45 PM






                Hello Fukuokans,

                We have been practicing hand-scale, no-tillage growing for a dozen years and are making enough money at it to support our family. Within the past year, since we retired our sickle bar mower and replaced it with a scythe, allows us to make the claim that we make no direct use of fossil fuel requiring inputs such as tillers, mowers, shredders and the like. To be sure, there are still indirect inputs such as vehicle transportation of inputs [mulch material] to our site by commercial landscape maintenance gardeners and transporting our products to the farmers market for sale.

                A key to making this work is following Fukuoka's rejection of making compost. I regard compost making as the greatest waste of time ever invented in the practice of horticulture. First you have to haul crop wastes out of the garden and throw them in a pile then try to turn that stringy trash with a shovel or fork and then haul them back again. Haha, haha, what tooth gritting folly! We leave wide alleyways between the beds where we throw crop residues and what weeds that may work their way up through the mulch to be crushed and trampled under foot after being dried by the summer sun. This also works well in our cool, moist winters too which favor decomposition of foot compacted plant material. Many [it would be laughable if it were not so sad] suffer through all this labor under the illusion that they are making "fertilizer" in their compost piles. Lesson number one in the most elementary chemistry class is that [fertilizer] "elements cannot be created or
                destroyed" They can only be recombined with other elements to make compounds [or moved from place to place].

                If one wishes to have a sustainably productive garden, one must make use of out of garden, or at least out of bed, inputs. "Cut and carry" is a term used in African hand-scale livestock production whereby the husbandperson goes out into the greater countryside, or perhaps into the commons, and carries back fodder for her penned up animals. This practice can be more profitably applied to what Bob Monie calls "vegan agriculture" [or something on that order] and used for feeding food plants instead of animals because, through the process of photosynthesis, the energy in the mulch materials is returned to the plant foods produced in the garden. When fed to livestock, most of that energy is lost to entropy and the forager will need to gather many times more to sustain his caloric requirement. As a general rule, I figure that a cartful of mulch hauled into the garden will, over time, produce a similar cartful that can be hauled out but there will be a little
                loss to leakage into the atmosphere and deeper soil.

                For information in scythes visit http://www.scytheco nnection. com. I bought a scythe from them and can highly recommend their product and service. For our taller, more deeply rooted crops, we first clear beds with a scythe, then cut roots just below the surface with a round point shovel and toss stumps into the alleyways before remulching.

                For more information on our Whole Systems model and method, visit http://www.WholeSys temsAg.org. Nothing to sell here.

                More information on "cut and carry" can be found with an in quotes search but you will need to weed out nonagricultural uses of the term.

                Good wishes all,

                John Warner, near Fresno, California
                Hand-scale, no-tillage market grower since 1996
                http://www,wholesys temsag.org

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Raju Titus
                To: fukuoka farming
                Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:24 AM
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming

                Dear friends,
                Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
                Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
                straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
                .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
                farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
                Thanks
                Raju Tittus

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Pat D
                Are there any Fukuoka farms that need a helping hand?  or would even let me camp on their land and study their methods?  I want to see this fukuoka stuff
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Are there any Fukuoka farms that need a helping hand?  or would even let me camp on their land and study their methods?  I want to see this fukuoka stuff firsthand.  Thanks.






















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • La Clarine Farm
                  Hi John, thanks for the excellent post and clear explanations. Your website is also one of the best out there as an information source. I d encourage
                  Message 8 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi John, thanks for the excellent post and clear explanations. Your
                    website is also one of the best out there as an information source. I'd
                    encourage everyone to check it out. There is much to ponder there, and
                    much to inspire. I especially like the idea expressed about closed vs
                    open systems. While a closed system sounds good philosophically (ie the
                    "farm organism"), it misses the point that every organism HAS to
                    interact with other organisms. Without that ability to interact, the
                    closed system can become "cancerous", feeding on itself until there's
                    nothing left of it. Perhaps this is why biodynamics has had such a
                    difficult time working for a lot of people.

                    I've been working toward your goal on my small farm. Our exception is
                    our compost - we have a herd of dairy goats, and all their manure and
                    stable bedding gets composted at our place. Some of it is used for our
                    vineyard and garden. Some goes to the neighbors for their own use. It
                    IS a lot of work, and I'd love to find another alternative, but right
                    now composting it is the best solution.
                    Once again, thanks for sharing you insights!

                    Best,

                    Hank

                    John Warner wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Fukuokans,
                    >
                    > We have been practicing hand-scale, no-tillage growing for a dozen
                    > years and are making enough money at it to support our family. Within
                    > the past year, since we retired our sickle bar mower and replaced it
                    > with a scythe, allows us to make the claim that we make no direct use
                    > of fossil fuel requiring inputs such as tillers, mowers, shredders and
                    > the like. To be sure, there are still indirect inputs such as vehicle
                    > transportation of inputs [mulch material] to our site by commercial
                    > landscape maintenance gardeners and transporting our products to the
                    > farmers market for sale.
                    >
                    > A key to making this work is following Fukuoka's rejection of making
                    > compost. I regard compost making as the greatest waste of time ever
                    > invented in the practice of horticulture. First you have to haul crop
                    > wastes out of the garden and throw them in a pile then try to turn
                    > that stringy trash with a shovel or fork and then haul them back
                    > again. Haha, haha, what tooth gritting folly! We leave wide alleyways
                    > between the beds where we throw crop residues and what weeds that may
                    > work their way up through the mulch to be crushed and trampled under
                    > foot after being dried by the summer sun. This also works well in our
                    > cool, moist winters too which favor decomposition of foot compacted
                    > plant material. Many [it would be laughable if it were not so sad]
                    > suffer through all this labor under the illusion that they are making
                    > "fertilizer" in their compost piles. Lesson number one in the most
                    > elementary chemistry class is that [fertilizer] "elements cannot be
                    > created or destroyed" They can only be recombined with other elements
                    > to make compounds [or moved from place to place].
                    >
                    > If one wishes to have a sustainably productive garden, one must make
                    > use of out of garden, or at least out of bed, inputs. "Cut and carry"
                    > is a term used in African hand-scale livestock production whereby the
                    > husbandperson goes out into the greater countryside, or perhaps into
                    > the commons, and carries back fodder for her penned up animals. This
                    > practice can be more profitably applied to what Bob Monie calls "vegan
                    > agriculture" [or something on that order] and used for feeding food
                    > plants instead of animals because, through the process of
                    > photosynthesis, the energy in the mulch materials is returned to the
                    > plant foods produced in the garden. When fed to livestock, most of
                    > that energy is lost to entropy and the forager will need to gather
                    > many times more to sustain his caloric requirement. As a general rule,
                    > I figure that a cartful of mulch hauled into the garden will, over
                    > time, produce a similar cartful that can be hauled out but there will
                    > be a little loss to leakage into the atmosphere and deeper soil.
                    >
                    > For information in scythes visit http://www.scytheconnection.com.
                    > <http://www.scytheconnection.com.> I bought a scythe from them and can
                    > highly recommend their product and service. For our taller, more
                    > deeply rooted crops, we first clear beds with a scythe, then cut roots
                    > just below the surface with a round point shovel and toss stumps into
                    > the alleyways before remulching.
                    >
                    > For more information on our Whole Systems model and method, visit
                    > http://www.WholeSystemsAg.org. <http://www.WholeSystemsAg.org.>
                    > Nothing to sell here.
                    >
                    > More information on "cut and carry" can be found with an in quotes
                    > search but you will need to weed out nonagricultural uses of the term.
                    >
                    > Good wishes all,
                    >
                    > John Warner, near Fresno, California
                    > Hand-scale, no-tillage market grower since 1996
                    > http://www,wholesystemsag.org <http://www,wholesystemsag.org>
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Raju Titus
                    > To: fukuoka farming
                    > Sent: Sunday, October 05, 2008 12:24 AM
                    > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming
                    >
                    > Dear friends,
                    > Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
                    > Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
                    > straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
                    > .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
                    > farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
                    > Thanks
                    > Raju Tittus
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • Raju Titus
                    Dear Dieter, Than how seeds germinate without tilling in nature ? Raju ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Message 9 of 10 , Oct 5, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Dieter,
                      Than how seeds germinate without tilling in nature ?
                      Raju


                      On 10/6/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Raju,
                      >
                      > We have been through this before. This link, like most no-till links you
                      > have posted before, is about using herbicides to kill weeds. That is NOT
                      > natural farming.
                      >
                      > Further, as I have repeatedly mentioned, in dry-land farming seeds
                      > germinate and crops grow without a single drop of rain, that is not possible
                      > without tilling.
                      >
                      > Dieter Brand
                      > Portugal
                      >
                      > --- On Sun, 10/5/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...<rajuktitus%40gmail.com>>
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>>
                      > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] No-Till farming
                      > To: "fukuoka farming" <fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
                      > >
                      > Date: Sunday, October 5, 2008, 8:24 AM
                      >
                      > Dear friends,
                      > Mark Watson doing No-Till farming and educating farmers. This is not a
                      > Fukuoka farming but is very close to it.Growing crops without burning
                      > straws and without tilling is having 100% positive impact on ecology
                      > .This method is very encouraging in dry land farming and places where
                      > farmers burning straws.Please see and do comment.
                      > Thanks
                      > Raju Tittus
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.