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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Red Clay for Seed balls

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  • Stan Helton
    The clay in my backyard doesn t come in powder form ;-) ... From: Dieter Brand Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Red Clay for Seed balls To:
    Message 1 of 19 , Sep 1 10:44 AM
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      The clay in my backyard doesn't come in powder form ;-)

      --- On Mon, 9/1/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

      From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Red Clay for Seed balls
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 3:13 PM

      I think the idea of buying red clay for making seedballs was probably floated
      during past discussion in this group.� It is unlikely that Fukuoka would have
      made such a suggestion.� In subsequent discussions this idea was further
      embellished by speculations about nutrients in clay etc., thus departing ever
      further from the basic ideas of natural farming.
      As far as I know, Fukuoka only talks about using �clay in powder form�,
      meaning clay from your own land.� The only references to red clay I can find in
      his books are the �red soil� (akatsuji) of the subsoil that is left after
      the �black soil� (kurotsuji) of the topsoil has eroded as a consequence of
      ploughing.� He also talks about �kabetsuji� (literally: wall soil), which
      is clay suitable for rammed earth constructions.� I have soil like that, so I
      know what he is talking about.� However, all three terms are used in the
      context of improving soils that have been depleted as a result of conventional
      agriculture.
      Perhaps we should lay to rest, once and for all, the myth of having to buy red
      clay for making seedballs.� Anyways, there is no need to include nutrients or
      anything fancy in seedballs.� If there is enough humidity and air, seeds will
      germinate in a layer of mulch or even between tissue paper without any soil or
      soil nutrients.� The seeds send out roots to find nutrients in the soil.� The
      amount of nutrients that can be included in the seedballs anyway is so small as
      to be insignificant.
      Dieter Brand, Portugal
      PS: I hope Bob and others in the New Orleans region are save and sound.


      --- On Mon, 9/1/08, brian kennedy <brian@...> wrote:

      From: brian kennedy <brian@...>
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Red Clay for Seed balls
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 5:49 AM






      Hank, now that you mention it, that sounds right. Thanks.

      On another topic--there were some pictures in a book, I think it was
      THE NATURAL WAY TO FARM, showing Fukuoka in Somalia, I believe. He
      was standing with a group on a hillside covered with dry grass. It
      reminded me of California's yellow hills, which excited me because
      I'm in California right now in similar terrain.. He seemed to be
      showing the people how to deal with such conditions. There was a big
      green circle where they were working. It looked like they had cut
      back the grass, and watered to get the "weed" seeds to sprout. Then
      I think maybe they were going to cut them back before they could
      develop seeds as a way of creating an opportunity for other kinds of
      plants they wanted to grow. I looked in the text t o try to find out
      in detail what was being done but did not find an explanation. Does
      anyone know?

      Brian
      On Aug 31, 2008, at 5:10 PM, La Clarine Farm wrote:

      > Brian, I remember this quote too, but thought it was about using other
      > types of clovers (didn't Fukuoka strongly recommend Ladino clover?).
      >
      > But then again, maybe I mis-remember. ..
      >
      > -Hank
      >
      > brian kennedy wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello All,
      > > I seem to remember Fukuoka addressing this matter in one of his
      > books
      > > explicitly in making a point about passing on his experience. I
      > don't
      > > have the book right now but I thought he said something like he had
      > > arrived at red clay after many years of experimentation and that if
      > > someone wanted to ignore his specific advice in this matter anyway,
      > > well then go ahead but...
      > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 12:18 AM, B�atrice Gilboa wrote:
      > >
      > > > Hello Benjamin,
      > > >
      > > > >> I'd like to know a little bit more about bentonite
      clay vs red
      > > > clay.
      > > >
      > > > - in short, Bentonite contains usualy more alumina, it has
      better
      > > > colloidal property, maybe absorbs more water than red clay.
      > > > As potter, we use it mainly for its colloidal property in
      glazes.
      > > > (You can probably easily find more data with google)
      > > >
      > > > >> I was under the impression that minerals (particularly
      iron)
      > > > make the red clay red.
      > > >
      > > > - Yes, your impression is exact
      > > >
      > > > >> My soil is heavy clay, but it's grey.
      > > >
      > > > - If you've clay in your garden it would be more natural to
      use it
      > > > to make your seedballs. To use it, take some, flatten it thin
      > on an
      > > > absorbant surface and let it dry, it will easilly become powder.
      > > > Use this powder for your seed ball.
      > > > I"ve never tried, but at least you could trie to add
      bentonite to
      > > > help you if you see your clay doesn't "stick" well
      on the seeds
      > (if
      > > > it isn't pure enough).
      > > > But I think that the sticky problem of the seedballs is not
      really
      > > > coming from the clay quality, but the process of making them and
      > > > the proportions.
      > > >
      > > > >> Can you elaborate on the benefits of bentonite?
      > > >
      > > > - hoping I help you a bit.You can buy all sorts of clay
      including
      > > > bentonite in any potter's supplier.
      > > > (or ask nice potter around your home if you don't need big
      > quantites)
      > > >
      > > > Plenty good seedballs that will explode green with the first
      > rain :-)
      > > >
      > > > Beatrice
      > > > Israel (I'm leaving for 2 months at the end of the week)
      > > >
      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
      >

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


      ------------------------------------

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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Benjamin Koltai
      ... Mine neither. The clay also isn t in just one area or layer. Whenever I dig in the yard, I come across pieces of clay, some as large as my fist.
      Message 2 of 19 , Sep 1 11:38 AM
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        Stan Helton wrote:
        > The clay in my backyard doesn't come in powder form ;-)
        >
        Mine neither. The clay also isn't in just one area or layer. Whenever
        I dig in the yard, I come across pieces of clay, some as large as my
        fist. However, I don't want to just start digging random holes in my
        yard trying to collect enough clay to use for seed balls. It seems that
        buying a clay would be a lot simpler, since it comes from someone's
        large unearthed deposit. I figured to buy red clay since it has the
        extra mineral nutrient. Does anyone know good ways to extract clay from
        my yard without having to dig a random giant holes?

        -Benjamin
      • Jeff
        Okay, .... What I heard works is digging a bucket of the stuff, wetting it thoroughly.. basically till its soup.. and stiring vigorously, after 3-5 seconds of
        Message 3 of 19 , Sep 1 12:52 PM
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          Okay, ....

          What I heard works is digging a bucket of the stuff, wetting it
          thoroughly.. basically till its soup.. and stiring vigorously,
          after 3-5 seconds of settling, pour the water (and suspended particles
          out, leave the stuff on the bottom that has already settled out, (the
          sand and most of the silt)- the clay stays in suspension, and will be
          in the water,...
          the water should be poured into a shallow depression, and it dries,
          and or absorbs into the soil, it will leave behind a clay film,

          repeat until you have enough,.. the more clay in your soils the more
          will come out,,,.. also to add bulk you can shorten the settling out
          period.... which will also depend on how much water and how vigours
          the stirring is......

          this has scientific merit as well, as this is how soil scientist
          determine (exactly) the percentage of clay, sand and silt in the soil,
          there are complex equations that predict this, but that math is beyond
          me currently..

          using potash in the mix should increase the clay colloidal properties,
          and make it suspend better, but it also may casue drying problems....



          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Koltai <bkoltai9@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Stan Helton wrote:
          > > The clay in my backyard doesn't come in powder form ;-)
          > >
          > Mine neither. The clay also isn't in just one area or layer. Whenever
          > I dig in the yard, I come across pieces of clay, some as large as my
          > fist. However, I don't want to just start digging random holes in my
          > yard trying to collect enough clay to use for seed balls. It seems
          that
          > buying a clay would be a lot simpler, since it comes from someone's
          > large unearthed deposit. I figured to buy red clay since it has the
          > extra mineral nutrient. Does anyone know good ways to extract clay
          from
          > my yard without having to dig a random giant holes?
          >
          > -Benjamin
          >
        • Gloria C. Baikauskas
          When Michiko, his assistant, Michiko said that Fukuoka no longer used seedballs, but instead was using mudballs. Gloria ... probably floated during past
          Message 4 of 19 , Sep 2 11:20 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            When Michiko, his assistant, Michiko said that Fukuoka no longer used
            seedballs, but instead was using mudballs.

            Gloria

            Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
            >
            > I think the idea of buying red clay for making seedballs was
            probably floated during past discussion in this group.  It is
            unlikely that Fukuoka would have made such a suggestion.  In
            subsequent discussions this idea was further embellished by
            speculations about nutrients in clay etc., thus departing ever
            further from the basic ideas of natural farming.
            > As far as I know, Fukuoka only talks about using "clay in powder
            form", meaning clay from your own land.  The only references to red
            clay I can find in his books are the "red soil" (akatsuji) of the
            subsoil that is left after the "black soil" (kurotsuji) of the
            topsoil has eroded as a consequence of ploughing.  He also talks
            about "kabetsuji" (literally: wall soil), which is clay suitable for
            rammed earth constructions.  I have soil like that, so I know what he
            is talking about.  However, all three terms are used in the context
            of improving soils that have been depleted as a result of
            conventional agriculture.
            > Perhaps we should lay to rest, once and for all, the myth of having
            to buy red clay for making seedballs.  Anyways, there is no need to
            include nutrients or anything fancy in seedballs.  If there is enough
            humidity and air, seeds will germinate in a layer of mulch or even
            between tissue paper without any soil or soil nutrients.  The seeds
            send out roots to find nutrients in the soil.  The amount of
            nutrients that can be included in the seedballs anyway is so small as
            to be insignificant.
            > Dieter Brand, Portugal
            > PS: I hope Bob and others in the New Orleans region are save and
            sound.
            >
            >
            > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, brian kennedy <brian@...> wrote:
            >
            > From: brian kennedy <brian@...>
            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Red Clay for Seed balls
            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 5:49 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Hank, now that you mention it, that sounds right. Thanks.
            >
            > On another topic--there were some pictures in a book, I think it
            was
            > THE NATURAL WAY TO FARM, showing Fukuoka in Somalia, I believe. He
            > was standing with a group on a hillside covered with dry grass. It
            > reminded me of California's yellow hills, which excited me because
            > I'm in California right now in similar terrain.. He seemed to be
            > showing the people how to deal with such conditions. There was a
            big
            > green circle where they were working. It looked like they had cut
            > back the grass, and watered to get the "weed" seeds to sprout. Then
            > I think maybe they were going to cut them back before they could
            > develop seeds as a way of creating an opportunity for other kinds
            of
            > plants they wanted to grow. I looked in the text t o try to find
            out
            > in detail what was being done but did not find an explanation. Does
            > anyone know?
            >
            > Brian
            > On Aug 31, 2008, at 5:10 PM, La Clarine Farm wrote:
            >
            > > Brian, I remember this quote too, but thought it was about using
            other
            > > types of clovers (didn't Fukuoka strongly recommend Ladino
            clover?).
            > >
            > > But then again, maybe I mis-remember. ..
            > >
            > > -Hank
            > >
            > > brian kennedy wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Hello All,
            > > > I seem to remember Fukuoka addressing this matter in one of his
            > > books
            > > > explicitly in making a point about passing on his experience. I
            > > don't
            > > > have the book right now but I thought he said something like he
            had
            > > > arrived at red clay after many years of experimentation and
            that if
            > > > someone wanted to ignore his specific advice in this matter
            anyway,
            > > > well then go ahead but...
            > > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 12:18 AM, Béatrice Gilboa wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Hello Benjamin,
            > > > >
            > > > > >> I'd like to know a little bit more about bentonite clay vs
            red
            > > > > clay.
            > > > >
            > > > > - in short, Bentonite contains usualy more alumina, it has
            better
            > > > > colloidal property, maybe absorbs more water than red clay.
            > > > > As potter, we use it mainly for its colloidal property in
            glazes.
            > > > > (You can probably easily find more data with google)
            > > > >
            > > > > >> I was under the impression that minerals (particularly
            iron)
            > > > > make the red clay red.
            > > > >
            > > > > - Yes, your impression is exact
            > > > >
            > > > > >> My soil is heavy clay, but it's grey.
            > > > >
            > > > > - If you've clay in your garden it would be more natural to
            use it
            > > > > to make your seedballs. To use it, take some, flatten it thin
            > > on an
            > > > > absorbant surface and let it dry, it will easilly become
            powder.
            > > > > Use this powder for your seed ball.
            > > > > I"ve never tried, but at least you could trie to add
            bentonite to
            > > > > help you if you see your clay doesn't "stick" well on the
            seeds
            > > (if
            > > > > it isn't pure enough).
            > > > > But I think that the sticky problem of the seedballs is not
            really
            > > > > coming from the clay quality, but the process of making them
            and
            > > > > the proportions.
            > > > >
            > > > > >> Can you elaborate on the benefits of bentonite?
            > > > >
            > > > > - hoping I help you a bit.You can buy all sorts of clay
            including
            > > > > bentonite in any potter's supplier.
            > > > > (or ask nice potter around your home if you don't need big
            > > quantites)
            > > > >
            > > > > Plenty good seedballs that will explode green with the first
            > > rain :-)
            > > > >
            > > > > Beatrice
            > > > > Israel (I'm leaving for 2 months at the end of the week)
            > > > >
            > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > >
            > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Gloria C. Baikauskas
            This should have read when Michiko was on this list group Michiko said that he no longer used seedballs with clay, but instead was making mudballs. My
            Message 5 of 19 , Sep 2 11:26 AM
            • 0 Attachment
              This should have read when Michiko was on this list group Michiko said
              that he no longer used seedballs with clay, but instead was making
              mudballs. My granddaughter, Elizabeth, 1 yr., was editing for me.

              Gloria

              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Gloria C. Baikauskas"
              <gloriawb@...> wrote:
              >
              > When Michiko, his assistant, Michiko said that Fukuoka no longer used
              > seedballs, but instead was using mudballs.
              >
              > Gloria
            • langec56
              By Mudballs does that mean the same ration for seedballs,3part clay or this case mud,2part undisturbed soil, and one part seed? -- In
              Message 6 of 19 , Nov 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                By Mudballs does that mean the same ration for seedballs,3part clay
                or this case mud,2part undisturbed soil, and one part seed?




                -- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Gloria C. Baikauskas"
                <gloriawb@...> wrote:
                >
                > When Michiko, his assistant, Michiko said that Fukuoka no longer used
                > seedballs, but instead was using mudballs.
                >
                > Gloria
                >
                > Dieter Brand <diebrand@> wrote:
                > >
                > > I think the idea of buying red clay for making seedballs was
                > probably floated during past discussion in this group. It is
                > unlikely that Fukuoka would have made such a suggestion. In
                > subsequent discussions this idea was further embellished by
                > speculations about nutrients in clay etc., thus departing ever
                > further from the basic ideas of natural farming.
                > > As far as I know, Fukuoka only talks about using "clay in powder
                > form", meaning clay from your own land. The only references to red
                > clay I can find in his books are the "red soil" (akatsuji) of the
                > subsoil that is left after the "black soil" (kurotsuji) of the
                > topsoil has eroded as a consequence of ploughing. He also talks
                > about "kabetsuji" (literally: wall soil), which is clay suitable for
                > rammed earth constructions. I have soil like that, so I know what he
                > is talking about. However, all three terms are used in the context
                > of improving soils that have been depleted as a result of
                > conventional agriculture.
                > > Perhaps we should lay to rest, once and for all, the myth of having
                > to buy red clay for making seedballs. Anyways, there is no need to
                > include nutrients or anything fancy in seedballs. If there is enough
                > humidity and air, seeds will germinate in a layer of mulch or even
                > between tissue paper without any soil or soil nutrients. The seeds
                > send out roots to find nutrients in the soil. The amount of
                > nutrients that can be included in the seedballs anyway is so small as
                > to be insignificant.
                > > Dieter Brand, Portugal
                > > PS: I hope Bob and others in the New Orleans region are save and
                > sound.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- On Mon, 9/1/08, brian kennedy <brian@> wrote:
                > >
                > > From: brian kennedy <brian@>
                > > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Red Clay for Seed balls
                > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Monday, September 1, 2008, 5:49 AM
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Hank, now that you mention it, that sounds right. Thanks.
                > >
                > > On another topic--there were some pictures in a book, I think it
                > was
                > > THE NATURAL WAY TO FARM, showing Fukuoka in Somalia, I believe. He
                > > was standing with a group on a hillside covered with dry grass. It
                > > reminded me of California's yellow hills, which excited me because
                > > I'm in California right now in similar terrain.. He seemed to be
                > > showing the people how to deal with such conditions. There was a
                > big
                > > green circle where they were working. It looked like they had cut
                > > back the grass, and watered to get the "weed" seeds to sprout. Then
                > > I think maybe they were going to cut them back before they could
                > > develop seeds as a way of creating an opportunity for other kinds
                > of
                > > plants they wanted to grow. I looked in the text t o try to find
                > out
                > > in detail what was being done but did not find an explanation. Does
                > > anyone know?
                > >
                > > Brian
                > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 5:10 PM, La Clarine Farm wrote:
                > >
                > > > Brian, I remember this quote too, but thought it was about using
                > other
                > > > types of clovers (didn't Fukuoka strongly recommend Ladino
                > clover?).
                > > >
                > > > But then again, maybe I mis-remember. ..
                > > >
                > > > -Hank
                > > >
                > > > brian kennedy wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Hello All,
                > > > > I seem to remember Fukuoka addressing this matter in one of his
                > > > books
                > > > > explicitly in making a point about passing on his experience. I
                > > > don't
                > > > > have the book right now but I thought he said something like he
                > had
                > > > > arrived at red clay after many years of experimentation and
                > that if
                > > > > someone wanted to ignore his specific advice in this matter
                > anyway,
                > > > > well then go ahead but...
                > > > > On Aug 31, 2008, at 12:18 AM, Béatrice Gilboa wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > > Hello Benjamin,
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >> I'd like to know a little bit more about bentonite clay vs
                > red
                > > > > > clay.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > - in short, Bentonite contains usualy more alumina, it has
                > better
                > > > > > colloidal property, maybe absorbs more water than red clay.
                > > > > > As potter, we use it mainly for its colloidal property in
                > glazes.
                > > > > > (You can probably easily find more data with google)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >> I was under the impression that minerals (particularly
                > iron)
                > > > > > make the red clay red.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > - Yes, your impression is exact
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >> My soil is heavy clay, but it's grey.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > - If you've clay in your garden it would be more natural to
                > use it
                > > > > > to make your seedballs. To use it, take some, flatten it thin
                > > > on an
                > > > > > absorbant surface and let it dry, it will easilly become
                > powder.
                > > > > > Use this powder for your seed ball.
                > > > > > I"ve never tried, but at least you could trie to add
                > bentonite to
                > > > > > help you if you see your clay doesn't "stick" well on the
                > seeds
                > > > (if
                > > > > > it isn't pure enough).
                > > > > > But I think that the sticky problem of the seedballs is not
                > really
                > > > > > coming from the clay quality, but the process of making them
                > and
                > > > > > the proportions.
                > > > > >
                > > > > > >> Can you elaborate on the benefits of bentonite?
                > > > > >
                > > > > > - hoping I help you a bit.You can buy all sorts of clay
                > including
                > > > > > bentonite in any potter's supplier.
                > > > > > (or ask nice potter around your home if you don't need big
                > > > quantites)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Plenty good seedballs that will explode green with the first
                > > > rain :-)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > Beatrice
                > > > > > Israel (I'm leaving for 2 months at the end of the week)
                > > > > >
                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                >
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