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Hello, my name is Ishaq...

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  • menino
    786 Greetings, everyone... My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read about Mr. Fukuoka s work offline...although I have not been able
    Message 1 of 24 , Aug 24, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      786

      Greetings, everyone...

      My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read
      about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
      get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.
      all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
      know still nothing.
      A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,
      Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is
      our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
      and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years
      ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
      for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's
      in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
      My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I
      didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.
      But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
      believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my
      own food.
      Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
      truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right
      questions...lol
    • sherlockregirock
      well, im in the same boat as you as far as actual experience. But concerning book smarts I was able to get One Straw Revolution and The Road Back to
      Message 2 of 24 , Aug 24, 2008
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        well, im in the same boat as you as far as actual experience. But
        concerning "book smarts" I was able to get "One Straw Revolution"
        and "The Road Back to Nature" from an international Library thingy. I
        found "The Natural Way of Farming" at a used book store but all three
        are available on amazon.com


        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "menino" <iabdulkabir@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > 786
        >
        > Greetings, everyone...
        >
        > My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to
        read
        > about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
        > get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet
        detective.
        > all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
        > know still nothing.
        > A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in
        Tate,
        > Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe
        is
        > our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
        > and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20
        years
        > ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
        > for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate,
        it's
        > in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
        > My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid
        that I
        > didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved
        attention.
        > But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
        > believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing
        my
        > own food.
        > Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
        > truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the
        right
        > questions...lol
        >
      • Nicholas Pierotti
        Hello everyone, Do you know anyone who is doing natural farming in New Mexico, Arizona or California, who might be looking for a couple of able-bodied folk to
        Message 3 of 24 , Aug 24, 2008
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          Hello everyone,

          Do you know anyone who is doing natural farming in New Mexico, Arizona or California, who might
          be looking for a couple of able-bodied folk to join their farm as apprentices or workers?

          My daughter and I are looking for just such an opportunity. We are tired of trying to live naturally in
          semi-urban environments, and are looking to find a farm to become a part of, as people do or did
          at Fukuoka's farm.

          We are ready to relocate at a moment's notice.

          Nick

          On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 14:26:54 -0000, menino wrote
          > 786
          >
          > Greetings, everyone...
          >
          > My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read
          > about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
          > get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.
          > all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
          > know still nothing.
          > A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,
          > Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is
          > our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
          > and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years
          > ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
          > for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's
          > in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
          > My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I
          > didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.
          > But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
          > believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my
          > own food.
          > Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
          > truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right
          > questions...lol
        • Dieter Brand
          You can get the PDF files for both the One Straw Revolution and The Natural Way of Farming from Steve Solomon s Soil and Health library at  
          Message 4 of 24 , Aug 24, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            You can get the PDF files for both the One Straw Revolution and The Natural Way of Farming from Steve Solomon's Soil and Health library at
             
            http://www.soilandhealth.org
             
            Steve operates the site like a lending library for out of print books.  You get a personal copy with your name on it by subscribing to the library.  The site has been mentioned before.
             
            Dieter

            --- On Sun, 8/24/08, sherlockregirock <sherlockregirock@...> wrote:

            From: sherlockregirock <sherlockregirock@...>
            Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Hello, my name is Ishaq...
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 8:04 PM






            well, im in the same boat as you as far as actual experience. But
            concerning "book smarts" I was able to get "One Straw Revolution"
            and "The Road Back to Nature" from an international Library thingy. I
            found "The Natural Way of Farming" at a used book store but all three
            are available on amazon.com

            --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "menino" <iabdulkabir@ ...>
            wrote:
            >
            > 786
            >
            > Greetings, everyone...
            >
            > My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to
            read
            > about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
            > get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet
            detective.
            > all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
            > know still nothing.
            > A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in
            Tate,
            > Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe
            is
            > our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
            > and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20
            years
            > ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
            > for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate,
            it's
            > in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
            > My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid
            that I
            > didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved
            attention.
            > But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
            > believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing
            my
            > own food.
            > Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
            > truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the
            right
            > questions... lol
            >


















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dieter Brand
            Hello Ishaq and welcome to the list.   It is hard to know what to tell you without having a clue as to what your land looks like, or what the soil, the
            Message 5 of 24 , Aug 24, 2008
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              Hello Ishaq and welcome to the list.
               
              It is hard to know what to tell you without having a clue as to what your land looks like, or what the soil, the existing vegetation or the climate is like.  Well, US-based members will understand at least the climate bit.
               
              We got 30 acres of hill-side land in the South of Portugal.  Farming or even gardening was really an afterthought.  We bought the place because we liked it. At the time, I had no idea about the soil.  It took me many years to learn.  In the process of which we had considerable losses.  I must have lost a few hundred fruit trees.  I though I could just plant a tree like I remembered it from Germany and it would just grow of its own.  But the soil here is much tougher and the climate a lot more challenging.  Most trees died and many of those that survived don't produce much fruit.  And the fruit that do grow are eaten by the birds.  Well, this year we had enough fruit at least for ourselves all year round, and we have been self-sufficient in vegetables for at least 7 or 8 years.  There is even a surplus for friends and people we know.
               
              I'm glad though I didn't decide everything at first.  We did things by and by and were able to learn.  If your land hasn't been cultivated for many years there is bound to be a lot of vegetation and good soil biology.  Up to you to make the best of it.  Don't burn anything when clearing the land.  Cut wood for heating and cooking, shred the branches for mulching. Cut the grass and weeds for mulch or get some animals.  If you have scrubland, you can try to grow crops by broadcasting seeds into the scrubs and then cutting and shredding the scrubs to cover the seeds like a mulch layer.  All the vegetation on your land is valuable biomass you can use to grow your food without fertilizers.  Take stock of what is on the land now.  Decide what you want to keep and what you want to replace with food crops.
               
              Fukuoka will give you a general idea, but you will need other sources to learn the nuts and bolts of farming and gardening.
               
              Most of all enjoy!  It is a great adventure to grow things.  Even today, after 12 years, I'm still excited every morning to get out of bed and to see how my plants are doing.  My wife is in despair, when I go out for 10 minutes just to have a quick look; she knows that I will be gone for hours.
               
              Dieter

               
              --- On Sun, 8/24/08, menino <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:

              From: menino <iabdulkabir@...>
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 3:26 PM






              786

              Greetings, everyone...

              My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read
              about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
              get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.
              all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
              know still nothing.
              A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,
              Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is
              our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
              and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years
              ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
              for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's
              in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
              My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I
              didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.
              But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
              believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my
              own food.
              Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
              truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right
              questions... lol


















              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Warner
              Hello Ishaq, I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would be supported
              Message 6 of 24 , Aug 24, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hello Ishaq,

                I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would be supported by gathering mulch materials from your 50 surrounding acres.

                Take a look at our website and see how we build our beds. We are fortunate to have commercial landscape maintenance gardeners who gather our mulch for us and leave it in front of the house instead of having to go out and get it as would be the case in your situation.
                However, we need to keep in mind that, in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Matter, mulch material--leaves, grass and even twigs--contain essentially the same nutrient mix as the foods we usually deem fit to eat. Nitrogen may be a bit of an exception to this since its presence in the soil is relatively illusive. But it means that, over time, a cartful of mulch placed on the beds from surrounding lands will be reorganized chemically by microorganisms and photosynthesis into delicious food especially if your mulch is rich and green as it is likely to be all summer long in Georgia. In the end, sustainability is limited by the rate mineral rock and soil particles can be weathered into soluble nutrients and this area is far greater than perhaps the 1/10th acre of intensive bed required to support a human being.

                This is by no means natural farming as practiced by Mr. Fukuoka or anyone else I know of. I have been more inspired by the Master's philosophy but have ventured far from his practice. Our practice, however, can be credited with supporting a family of at least four persons during the 13 year period we have been practicing market gardeners. Since we replaced our sickle bar mower with a scythe, we can now claim to make no direct use of fossil fuels in the production of our food and flowers. We do everything by hand without the use of tractor, tiller, shredder or mower. We are pleased with this achievement even though we still depend on inputs that require fossil fuels to in their production or delivery. The mulch material delivered by the gardeners requires a great deal of fuel for cutting and delivery, but this need not be the case where acres of natural growth are close at hand.

                And I might also suggest that you look into selecting, planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose eating acorns produced and gathered on your land. Perhaps there are native species but if not, oaks could be introduced. For the most part vegetables are so very low in fat that the eater may require 16, 20, or even many more pounds per day of consumption just to meet his/her caloric requirements with requirements for fatty acids still in question. Here's where trees on the wider acreage can really help. I'd suggest getting a copy of J Russell Smith's, "Tree Crops", but the price from used book sellers will be very much on the fancy side. Perhaps you can download it from the Soil and Health Library [search]. The stellar tree here is the holly oak, Quercus ilex, a Mediterranean native, that may have supported the natives of those lands before wheat was introduced. I have perhaps 20 or so planted about on my 2 acres and and have at least that many coming on in quart and gallon containers. One, just three years in the ground from a gallon container, is producing acorns right now. According to Mr. Smith, oaks vary widely by individual as to size of fruit, lack of tannin, early bearing, speed of growth and more so it may serve us well to check out a wide population for desirable qualities and graft them to less desirable seedlings. This is our plan. A member of this list, Jamie, some years ago sent me acorns from southern France. Included was an infertile eye popper the size of a bantam egg. Thanks again, Jamie, and best wishes on your monastic journey. There is a great horticultural tradition associated with the monastic life--Gregor Mendel's work and saving the ginkgo from extinction in ancient China come to mind.

                Our web address is

                http://www.wholesystemsag.org

                Good wishes Ishaq and all who value living directly from the land.

                John Warner
                Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California.
                No tillage, no tractor market growers since 1996



                ----- Original Message -----
                From: menino
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:26 AM
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...


                786

                Greetings, everyone...

                My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read
                about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
                get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.
                all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
                know still nothing.
                A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,
                Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is
                our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
                and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years
                ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
                for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's
                in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
                My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I
                didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.
                But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
                believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my
                own food.
                Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
                truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right
                questions...lol





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dieter Brand
                ...   John, can you tell us more about grafting oak trees and how it is done?  We have a lot of cork oaks on our property, but I have never heard about
                Message 7 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  >And I might also suggest that you look into selecting,
                  >planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose
                  >eating acorns produced and gathered on your land.
                   
                  John, can you tell us more about grafting oak trees and how it is done?  We have a lot of cork oaks on our property, but I have never heard about anyone eating the acorns. Pigs may eat some, but even they find them too bitter most of the time.
                   
                  Dieter Brand
                  Portugal

                  --- On Mon, 8/25/08, John Warner <daddyoat@...> wrote:

                  From: John Warner <daddyoat@...>
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 6:19 AM






                  Hello Ishaq,

                  I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would be supported by gathering mulch materials from your 50 surrounding acres.

                  Take a look at our website and see how we build our beds. We are fortunate to have commercial landscape maintenance gardeners who gather our mulch for us and leave it in front of the house instead of having to go out and get it as would be the case in your situation.
                  However, we need to keep in mind that, in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Matter, mulch material--leaves, grass and even twigs--contain essentially the same nutrient mix as the foods we usually deem fit to eat. Nitrogen may be a bit of an exception to this since its presence in the soil is relatively illusive. But it means that, over time, a cartful of mulch placed on the beds from surrounding lands will be reorganized chemically by microorganisms and photosynthesis into delicious food especially if your mulch is rich and green as it is likely to be all summer long in Georgia. In the end, sustainability is limited by the rate mineral rock and soil particles can be weathered into soluble nutrients and this area is far greater than perhaps the 1/10th acre of intensive bed required to support a human being.

                  This is by no means natural farming as practiced by Mr. Fukuoka or anyone else I know of. I have been more inspired by the Master's philosophy but have ventured far from his practice. Our practice, however, can be credited with supporting a family of at least four persons during the 13 year period we have been practicing market gardeners. Since we replaced our sickle bar mower with a scythe, we can now claim to make no direct use of fossil fuels in the production of our food and flowers. We do everything by hand without the use of tractor, tiller, shredder or mower. We are pleased with this achievement even though we still depend on inputs that require fossil fuels to in their production or delivery. The mulch material delivered by the gardeners requires a great deal of fuel for cutting and delivery, but this need not be the case where acres of natural growth are close at hand.

                  And I might also suggest that you look into selecting, planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose eating acorns produced and gathered on your land. Perhaps there are native species but if not, oaks could be introduced. For the most part vegetables are so very low in fat that the eater may require 16, 20, or even many more pounds per day of consumption just to meet his/her caloric requirements with requirements for fatty acids still in question. Here's where trees on the wider acreage can really help. I'd suggest getting a copy of J Russell Smith's, "Tree Crops", but the price from used book sellers will be very much on the fancy side. Perhaps you can download it from the Soil and Health Library [search]. The stellar tree here is the holly oak, Quercus ilex, a Mediterranean native, that may have supported the natives of those lands before wheat was introduced. I have perhaps 20 or so planted about on my 2 acres and and have at least that many
                  coming on in quart and gallon containers. One, just three years in the ground from a gallon container, is producing acorns right now. According to Mr. Smith, oaks vary widely by individual as to size of fruit, lack of tannin, early bearing, speed of growth and more so it may serve us well to check out a wide population for desirable qualities and graft them to less desirable seedlings. This is our plan. A member of this list, Jamie, some years ago sent me acorns from southern France. Included was an infertile eye popper the size of a bantam egg. Thanks again, Jamie, and best wishes on your monastic journey. There is a great horticultural tradition associated with the monastic life--Gregor Mendel's work and saving the ginkgo from extinction in ancient China come to mind.

                  Our web address is

                  http://www.wholesys temsag.org

                  Good wishes Ishaq and all who value living directly from the land.

                  John Warner
                  Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California.
                  No tillage, no tractor market growers since 1996

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: menino
                  To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                  Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:26 AM
                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...

                  786

                  Greetings, everyone...

                  My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read
                  about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
                  get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.
                  all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
                  know still nothing.
                  A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,
                  Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is
                  our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
                  and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years
                  ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
                  for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's
                  in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
                  My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I
                  didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.
                  But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
                  believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my
                  own food.
                  Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
                  truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right
                  questions... lol

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Ishaq Abdulkabir
                  786   Thank you!  Your suggestions are just what I need...I m excited! ... From: John Warner Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my
                  Message 8 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    786

                      Thank you!  Your suggestions are just what I need...I'm excited!

                    --- On Mon, 8/25/08, John Warner <daddyoat@...> wrote:
                    From: John Warner <daddyoat@...>
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 1:19 AM











                    Hello Ishaq,



                    I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would be supported by gathering mulch materials from your 50 surrounding acres.



                    Take a look at our website and see how we build our beds. We are fortunate to have commercial landscape maintenance gardeners who gather our mulch for us and leave it in front of the house instead of having to go out and get it as would be the case in your situation.

                    However, we need to keep in mind that, in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Matter, mulch material--leaves, grass and even twigs--contain essentially the same nutrient mix as the foods we usually deem fit to eat. Nitrogen may be a bit of an exception to this since its presence in the soil is relatively illusive. But it means that, over time, a cartful of mulch placed on the beds from surrounding lands will be reorganized chemically by microorganisms and photosynthesis into delicious food especially if your mulch is rich and green as it is likely to be all summer long in Georgia. In the end, sustainability is limited by the rate mineral rock and soil particles can be weathered into soluble nutrients and this area is far greater than perhaps the 1/10th acre of intensive bed required to support a human being.



                    This is by no means natural farming as practiced by Mr. Fukuoka or anyone else I know of. I have been more inspired by the Master's philosophy but have ventured far from his practice. Our practice, however, can be credited with supporting a family of at least four persons during the 13 year period we have been practicing market gardeners. Since we replaced our sickle bar mower with a scythe, we can now claim to make no direct use of fossil fuels in the production of our food and flowers. We do everything by hand without the use of tractor, tiller, shredder or mower. We are pleased with this achievement even though we still depend on inputs that require fossil fuels to in their production or delivery. The mulch material delivered by the gardeners requires a great deal of fuel for cutting and delivery, but this need not be the case where acres of natural growth are close at hand.



                    And I might also suggest that you look into selecting, planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose eating acorns produced and gathered on your land. Perhaps there are native species but if not, oaks could be introduced. For the most part vegetables are so very low in fat that the eater may require 16, 20, or even many more pounds per day of consumption just to meet his/her caloric requirements with requirements for fatty acids still in question. Here's where trees on the wider acreage can really help. I'd suggest getting a copy of J Russell Smith's, "Tree Crops", but the price from used book sellers will be very much on the fancy side. Perhaps you can download it from the Soil and Health Library [search]. The stellar tree here is the holly oak, Quercus ilex, a Mediterranean native, that may have supported the natives of those lands before wheat was introduced. I have perhaps 20 or so planted about on my 2 acres and and have at least
                    that many coming on in quart and gallon containers. One, just three years in the ground from a gallon container, is producing acorns right now. According to Mr. Smith, oaks vary widely by individual as to size of fruit, lack of tannin, early bearing, speed of growth and more so it may serve us well to check out a wide population for desirable qualities and graft them to less desirable seedlings. This is our plan. A member of this list, Jamie, some years ago sent me acorns from southern France. Included was an infertile eye popper the size of a bantam egg. Thanks again, Jamie, and best wishes on your monastic journey. There is a great horticultural tradition associated with the monastic life--Gregor Mendel's work and saving the ginkgo from extinction in ancient China come to mind.



                    Our web address is



                    http://www.wholesys temsag.org



                    Good wishes Ishaq and all who value living directly from the land.



                    John Warner

                    Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California.

                    No tillage, no tractor market growers since 1996



                    ----- Original Message -----

                    From: menino

                    To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                    Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:26 AM

                    Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...



                    786



                    Greetings, everyone...



                    My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read

                    about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to

                    get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.

                    all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I

                    know still nothing.

                    A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,

                    Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is

                    our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow

                    and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years

                    ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained

                    for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's

                    in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.

                    My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I

                    didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.

                    But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I

                    believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my

                    own food.

                    Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm

                    truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right

                    questions... lol



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Ishaq Abdulkabir
                    We have red georgia clay as our soil; and a lot of pine trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning that his soil was also red clay
                    Message 9 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning that his soil was also red clay (similar)...

                      --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                      From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 3:44 AM











                      >And I might also suggest that you look into selecting,

                      >planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose

                      >eating acorns produced and gathered on your land.

                       

                      John, can you tell us more about grafting oak trees and how it is done?  We have a lot of cork oaks on our property, but I have never heard about anyone eating the acorns. Pigs may eat some, but even they find them too bitter most of the time.

                       

                      Dieter Brand

                      Portugal



                      --- On Mon, 8/25/08, John Warner <daddyoat@netptc. net> wrote:



                      From: John Warner <daddyoat@netptc. net>

                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...

                      To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                      Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 6:19 AM



                      Hello Ishaq,



                      I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would be supported by gathering mulch materials from your 50 surrounding acres.



                      Take a look at our website and see how we build our beds. We are fortunate to have commercial landscape maintenance gardeners who gather our mulch for us and leave it in front of the house instead of having to go out and get it as would be the case in your situation.

                      However, we need to keep in mind that, in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Matter, mulch material--leaves, grass and even twigs--contain essentially the same nutrient mix as the foods we usually deem fit to eat. Nitrogen may be a bit of an exception to this since its presence in the soil is relatively illusive. But it means that, over time, a cartful of mulch placed on the beds from surrounding lands will be reorganized chemically by microorganisms and photosynthesis into delicious food especially if your mulch is rich and green as it is likely to be all summer long in Georgia. In the end, sustainability is limited by the rate mineral rock and soil particles can be weathered into soluble nutrients and this area is far greater than perhaps the 1/10th acre of intensive bed required to support a human being.



                      This is by no means natural farming as practiced by Mr. Fukuoka or anyone else I know of. I have been more inspired by the Master's philosophy but have ventured far from his practice. Our practice, however, can be credited with supporting a family of at least four persons during the 13 year period we have been practicing market gardeners. Since we replaced our sickle bar mower with a scythe, we can now claim to make no direct use of fossil fuels in the production of our food and flowers. We do everything by hand without the use of tractor, tiller, shredder or mower. We are pleased with this achievement even though we still depend on inputs that require fossil fuels to in their production or delivery. The mulch material delivered by the gardeners requires a great deal of fuel for cutting and delivery, but this need not be the case where acres of natural growth are close at hand.



                      And I might also suggest that you look into selecting, planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose eating acorns produced and gathered on your land. Perhaps there are native species but if not, oaks could be introduced. For the most part vegetables are so very low in fat that the eater may require 16, 20, or even many more pounds per day of consumption just to meet his/her caloric requirements with requirements for fatty acids still in question. Here's where trees on the wider acreage can really help. I'd suggest getting a copy of J Russell Smith's, "Tree Crops", but the price from used book sellers will be very much on the fancy side. Perhaps you can download it from the Soil and Health Library [search]. The stellar tree here is the holly oak, Quercus ilex, a Mediterranean native, that may have supported the natives of those lands before wheat was introduced. I have perhaps 20 or so planted about on my 2 acres and and have at least that many

                      coming on in quart and gallon containers. One, just three years in the ground from a gallon container, is producing acorns right now. According to Mr. Smith, oaks vary widely by individual as to size of fruit, lack of tannin, early bearing, speed of growth and more so it may serve us well to check out a wide population for desirable qualities and graft them to less desirable seedlings. This is our plan. A member of this list, Jamie, some years ago sent me acorns from southern France. Included was an infertile eye popper the size of a bantam egg. Thanks again, Jamie, and best wishes on your monastic journey. There is a great horticultural tradition associated with the monastic life--Gregor Mendel's work and saving the ginkgo from extinction in ancient China come to mind.



                      Our web address is



                      http://www.wholesys temsag.org



                      Good wishes Ishaq and all who value living directly from the land.



                      John Warner

                      Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California.

                      No tillage, no tractor market growers since 1996



                      ----- Original Message -----

                      From: menino

                      To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                      Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:26 AM

                      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...



                      786



                      Greetings, everyone...



                      My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read

                      about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to

                      get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.

                      all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I

                      know still nothing.

                      A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,

                      Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is

                      our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow

                      and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years

                      ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained

                      for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's

                      in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.

                      My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I

                      didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.

                      But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I

                      believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my

                      own food.

                      Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm

                      truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right

                      questions... lol



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Dieter Brand
                      ...   Clay soil is good.  What s not so good is if it s only clay and no soil, i.e., no or only little organic matter and the reddish clay of the subsoil is
                      Message 10 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        >We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine
                        >trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka
                        >mentioning that his soil was also red clay (similar)...
                         
                        Clay soil is good.  What's not so good is if it's only clay and no soil, i.e., no or only little organic matter and the reddish clay of the subsoil is exposed to the weather without much topsoil to cover it.  On hillside land, as in Fukuoka's orchards, the topsoil has often been eroded by ploughing.  It took him 30 years to put 6 inches of black topsoil back on the land.
                         
                        With pines on a heavy clay soil, your soil is probably acidic.  Some plants don't mind acidic soil but most prefer a pH between 6 and 7.  The quick way to shift pH is by liming; however, I think there may be some negative effects of liming, can't remember exactly what, but I think it has something to do with Ca and Al.  Perhaps Jeff can give us more information on the subject.  So far I have resisted the temptation to add lime and use organic matter only.
                         
                        Dieter

                        --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Ishaq Abdulkabir <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:

                        From: Ishaq Abdulkabir <iabdulkabir@...>
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 9:19 AM






                        We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning that his soil was also red clay (similar)...

                        --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com> wrote:
                        From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com>
                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                        To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                        Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 3:44 AM

                        >And I might also suggest that you look into selecting,

                        >planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose

                        >eating acorns produced and gathered on your land.

                         

                        John, can you tell us more about grafting oak trees and how it is done?  We have a lot of cork oaks on our property, but I have never heard about anyone eating the acorns. Pigs may eat some, but even they find them too bitter most of the time.

                         

                        Dieter Brand

                        Portugal

                        --- On Mon, 8/25/08, John Warner <daddyoat@netptc. net> wrote:

                        From: John Warner <daddyoat@netptc. net>

                        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...

                        To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                        Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 6:19 AM

                        Hello Ishaq,

                        I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would be supported by gathering mulch materials from your 50 surrounding acres.

                        Take a look at our website and see how we build our beds. We are fortunate to have commercial landscape maintenance gardeners who gather our mulch for us and leave it in front of the house instead of having to go out and get it as would be the case in your situation.

                        However, we need to keep in mind that, in accordance with the Law of Conservation of Matter, mulch material--leaves, grass and even twigs--contain essentially the same nutrient mix as the foods we usually deem fit to eat. Nitrogen may be a bit of an exception to this since its presence in the soil is relatively illusive. But it means that, over time, a cartful of mulch placed on the beds from surrounding lands will be reorganized chemically by microorganisms and photosynthesis into delicious food especially if your mulch is rich and green as it is likely to be all summer long in Georgia. In the end, sustainability is limited by the rate mineral rock and soil particles can be weathered into soluble nutrients and this area is far greater than perhaps the 1/10th acre of intensive bed required to support a human being.

                        This is by no means natural farming as practiced by Mr. Fukuoka or anyone else I know of. I have been more inspired by the Master's philosophy but have ventured far from his practice. Our practice, however, can be credited with supporting a family of at least four persons during the 13 year period we have been practicing market gardeners. Since we replaced our sickle bar mower with a scythe, we can now claim to make no direct use of fossil fuels in the production of our food and flowers. We do everything by hand without the use of tractor, tiller, shredder or mower. We are pleased with this achievement even though we still depend on inputs that require fossil fuels to in their production or delivery. The mulch material delivered by the gardeners requires a great deal of fuel for cutting and delivery, but this need not be the case where acres of natural growth are close at hand.

                        And I might also suggest that you look into selecting, planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose eating acorns produced and gathered on your land. Perhaps there are native species but if not, oaks could be introduced. For the most part vegetables are so very low in fat that the eater may require 16, 20, or even many more pounds per day of consumption just to meet his/her caloric requirements with requirements for fatty acids still in question. Here's where trees on the wider acreage can really help. I'd suggest getting a copy of J Russell Smith's, "Tree Crops", but the price from used book sellers will be very much on the fancy side. Perhaps you can download it from the Soil and Health Library [search]. The stellar tree here is the holly oak, Quercus ilex, a Mediterranean native, that may have supported the natives of those lands before wheat was introduced. I have perhaps 20 or so planted about on my 2 acres and and have at least that many

                        coming on in quart and gallon containers. One, just three years in the ground from a gallon container, is producing acorns right now. According to Mr. Smith, oaks vary widely by individual as to size of fruit, lack of tannin, early bearing, speed of growth and more so it may serve us well to check out a wide population for desirable qualities and graft them to less desirable seedlings. This is our plan. A member of this list, Jamie, some years ago sent me acorns from southern France. Included was an infertile eye popper the size of a bantam egg. Thanks again, Jamie, and best wishes on your monastic journey. There is a great horticultural tradition associated with the monastic life--Gregor Mendel's work and saving the ginkgo from extinction in ancient China come to mind.

                        Our web address is

                        http://www.wholesys temsag.org

                        Good wishes Ishaq and all who value living directly from the land.

                        John Warner

                        Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California.

                        No tillage, no tractor market growers since 1996

                        ----- Original Message -----

                        From: menino

                        To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

                        Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:26 AM

                        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...

                        786

                        Greetings, everyone...

                        My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read

                        about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to

                        get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.

                        all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I

                        know still nothing.

                        A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,

                        Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is

                        our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow

                        and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years

                        ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained

                        for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's

                        in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.

                        My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I

                        didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.

                        But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I

                        believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my

                        own food.

                        Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm

                        truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right

                        questions... lol

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • john
                        This might be of interest: http://www.gardensimply.com/ph_raise.shtml ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        Message 11 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          This might be of interest:

                          http://www.gardensimply.com/ph_raise.shtml

                          On Aug 25, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                          > >We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine
                          > >trees...very foresty. I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka
                          > >mentioning that his soil was also red clay (similar)...
                          >
                          > Clay soil is good. What's not so good is if it's only clay and no
                          > soil, i.e., no or only little organic matter and the reddish clay
                          > of the subsoil is exposed to the weather without much topsoil to
                          > cover it. On hillside land, as in Fukuoka's orchards, the topsoil
                          > has often been eroded by ploughing. It took him 30 years to put 6
                          > inches of black topsoil back on the land.
                          >
                          > With pines on a heavy clay soil, your soil is probably acidic.
                          > Some plants don't mind acidic soil but most prefer a pH between 6
                          > and 7. The quick way to shift pH is by liming; however, I think
                          > there may be some negative effects of liming, can't remember
                          > exactly what, but I think it has something to do with Ca and Al.
                          > Perhaps Jeff can give us more information on the subject. So far I
                          > have resisted the temptation to add lime and use organic matter only.
                          >
                          > Dieter
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Ishaq Abdulkabir <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: Ishaq Abdulkabir <iabdulkabir@...>
                          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                          > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 9:19 AM
                          >
                          > We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine
                          > trees...very foresty. I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning
                          > that his soil was also red clay (similar)...
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com> wrote:
                          > From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@yahoo. com>
                          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                          > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                          > Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 3:44 AM
                          >
                          > >And I might also suggest that you look into selecting,
                          >
                          > >planting and perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose
                          >
                          > >eating acorns produced and gathered on your land.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > John, can you tell us more about grafting oak trees and how it is
                          > done? We have a lot of cork oaks on our property, but I have never
                          > heard about anyone eating the acorns. Pigs may eat some, but even
                          > they find them too bitter most of the time.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Dieter Brand
                          >
                          > Portugal
                          >
                          > --- On Mon, 8/25/08, John Warner <daddyoat@netptc. net> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: John Warner <daddyoat@netptc. net>
                          >
                          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                          >
                          > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                          >
                          > Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 6:19 AM
                          >
                          > Hello Ishaq,
                          >
                          > I would suggest that you consider intensive garden beds close to
                          > your house. The high nutrient requirement of intensive beds would
                          > be supported by gathering mulch materials from your 50 surrounding
                          > acres.
                          >
                          > Take a look at our website and see how we build our beds. We are
                          > fortunate to have commercial landscape maintenance gardeners who
                          > gather our mulch for us and leave it in front of the house instead
                          > of having to go out and get it as would be the case in your situation.
                          >
                          > However, we need to keep in mind that, in accordance with the Law
                          > of Conservation of Matter, mulch material--leaves, grass and even
                          > twigs--contain essentially the same nutrient mix as the foods we
                          > usually deem fit to eat. Nitrogen may be a bit of an exception to
                          > this since its presence in the soil is relatively illusive. But it
                          > means that, over time, a cartful of mulch placed on the beds from
                          > surrounding lands will be reorganized chemically by microorganisms
                          > and photosynthesis into delicious food especially if your mulch is
                          > rich and green as it is likely to be all summer long in Georgia. In
                          > the end, sustainability is limited by the rate mineral rock and
                          > soil particles can be weathered into soluble nutrients and this
                          > area is far greater than perhaps the 1/10th acre of intensive bed
                          > required to support a human being.
                          >
                          > This is by no means natural farming as practiced by Mr. Fukuoka or
                          > anyone else I know of. I have been more inspired by the Master's
                          > philosophy but have ventured far from his practice. Our practice,
                          > however, can be credited with supporting a family of at least four
                          > persons during the 13 year period we have been practicing market
                          > gardeners. Since we replaced our sickle bar mower with a scythe, we
                          > can now claim to make no direct use of fossil fuels in the
                          > production of our food and flowers. We do everything by hand
                          > without the use of tractor, tiller, shredder or mower. We are
                          > pleased with this achievement even though we still depend on inputs
                          > that require fossil fuels to in their production or delivery. The
                          > mulch material delivered by the gardeners requires a great deal of
                          > fuel for cutting and delivery, but this need not be the case where
                          > acres of natural growth are close at hand.
                          >
                          > And I might also suggest that you look into selecting, planting and
                          > perhaps grafting oak trees for the purpose eating acorns produced
                          > and gathered on your land. Perhaps there are native species but if
                          > not, oaks could be introduced. For the most part vegetables are so
                          > very low in fat that the eater may require 16, 20, or even many
                          > more pounds per day of consumption just to meet his/her caloric
                          > requirements with requirements for fatty acids still in question.
                          > Here's where trees on the wider acreage can really help. I'd
                          > suggest getting a copy of J Russell Smith's, "Tree Crops", but the
                          > price from used book sellers will be very much on the fancy side.
                          > Perhaps you can download it from the Soil and Health Library
                          > [search]. The stellar tree here is the holly oak, Quercus ilex, a
                          > Mediterranean native, that may have supported the natives of those
                          > lands before wheat was introduced. I have perhaps 20 or so planted
                          > about on my 2 acres and and have at least that many
                          >
                          > coming on in quart and gallon containers. One, just three years in
                          > the ground from a gallon container, is producing acorns right now.
                          > According to Mr. Smith, oaks vary widely by individual as to size
                          > of fruit, lack of tannin, early bearing, speed of growth and more
                          > so it may serve us well to check out a wide population for
                          > desirable qualities and graft them to less desirable seedlings.
                          > This is our plan. A member of this list, Jamie, some years ago sent
                          > me acorns from southern France. Included was an infertile eye
                          > popper the size of a bantam egg. Thanks again, Jamie, and best
                          > wishes on your monastic journey. There is a great horticultural
                          > tradition associated with the monastic life--Gregor Mendel's work
                          > and saving the ginkgo from extinction in ancient China come to mind.
                          >
                          > Our web address is
                          >
                          > http://www.wholesys temsag.org
                          >
                          > Good wishes Ishaq and all who value living directly from the land.
                          >
                          > John Warner
                          >
                          > Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California.
                          >
                          > No tillage, no tractor market growers since 1996
                          >
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          >
                          > From: menino
                          >
                          > To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                          >
                          > Sent: Sunday, August 24, 2008 7:26 AM
                          >
                          > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                          >
                          > 786
                          >
                          > Greetings, everyone...
                          >
                          > My name is Ishaq; I, like Andrew, have been doing my best to read
                          >
                          > about Mr. Fukuoka's work offline...although I have not been able to
                          >
                          > get any of his books just yet, I've been an avid internet detective.
                          >
                          > all this really means is that I'm open to so much right now, and I
                          >
                          > know still nothing.
                          >
                          > A little bit about me...My late father left me 50+ acres in Tate,
                          >
                          > Georgia...in the base of the Blue Ridge Mountains (Mount Oglethorpe is
                          >
                          > our highest peak). My step-mother has given me the blessing to grow
                          >
                          > and develop pretty much as I please. We did clear 3-4 acres 20 years
                          >
                          > ago to build houses, but since then, the land has grown unrestrained
                          >
                          > for the most part. For those of you who've never heard of Tate, it's
                          >
                          > in Pickens County, about 60 miles northeast of Atlanta.
                          >
                          > My father had always gardened wherever we lived; I'm afraid that I
                          >
                          > didn't give the knowledge he tried to impart its deserved attention.
                          >
                          > But now...with the rise in food costs, and everyone going "green," I
                          >
                          > believe that I should try to empower our lives by at least growing my
                          >
                          > own food.
                          >
                          > Where do I start? What research do I need to carry out? I'm
                          >
                          > truly ignorant, so I freely apologize if I'm not even asking the right
                          >
                          > questions... lol
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >



                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jeff
                          ... soil, i.e., no or only little organic matter and the reddish clay of the subsoil is exposed to the weather without much topsoil to cover it. ... and 7.
                          Message 12 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            >
                            > > >We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine
                            > > >trees...very foresty. I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka
                            > > >mentioning that his soil was also red clay (similar)...
                            > >
                            > > Clay soil is good. What's not so good is if it's only clay and no
                            soil, i.e., no or only little organic matter and the reddish clay
                            of the subsoil is exposed to the weather without much topsoil to
                            cover it.

                            > > With pines on a heavy clay soil, your soil is probably acidic.
                            > > Some plants don't mind acidic soil but most prefer a pH between 6
                            and 7. The quick way to shift pH is by liming; however, I think
                            > > there may be some negative effects of liming, can't remember
                            > > exactly what, but I think it has something to do with Ca and Al.


                            Ok, quick primer:
                            Clay is red because of (oxidized +3) iron,
                            the brown of most soil is also iron but in a different (also
                            oxidized) state.
                            clay or any soil become grey when it is leached of iron (and other
                            nutrient as well) this process occurs through water... ...

                            red clay still has nutrients in it and that is good.

                            liming clay is a gamble:
                            soil structure can be disrupted... (the Ca/Mg balance is important,
                            although research on this topic is limited),

                            also there are two different actions of lime in acidic (forest) soils,
                            first there is what is called the 'base saturation'... this is a
                            measure of the (positive) ions in the soil (cation exchange capacity),
                            as a percentage of the whole With NA, CA, K, MG, representing the
                            'basic' compounds... the other sites are taken up with primarily H+, but

                            the only way to get the H+ is to flood other basic nutrients in...
                            Any nutrient will do (K would be good , but expensive),
                            THe problem with using CA is that it 'competes' with the other
                            nutrients for absorbition....

                            that is the more Ca you have the less the plant can get more important
                            nutrient like K....

                            The other type of acid is the organic acid from the pine trees. This
                            acid is nuetralized by a certain amount of lime.

                            I'm not sure what the result is on the organic mater then....

                            I would think that organic matter plus manure would 'buffer' the soil
                            and raise it to about 6.2 which would be good enough for most
                            crops.... but this would be a long term solution.
                            (it would be best to bring in the manure for the base saturation...).

                            also one must be careful too much lime can turn to concrete.. lol
                          • Anders Skarlind
                            Lime (CaCO3 or dolomite lime which also has MgCO3) is important in at least three ways: 1. As a plant nutrient Calcium (Ca) is needed by e g legumes, brassicas
                            Message 13 of 24 , Aug 25, 2008
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                              Lime (CaCO3 or dolomite lime which also has MgCO3) is important in at
                              least three ways:

                              1. As a plant nutrient
                              Calcium (Ca) is needed by e g legumes, brassicas and I think also
                              tomatoes and pumpkins.

                              2. For increasing pH
                              pH has importance for the availability of most plant nutrients.

                              3. For regulating soil cation exchange capacity (CEC).
                              This largely goes back to William A. Albrecht. Jeff touched on the
                              subjecy without giving reference to Albrecht. The proportions of Ca,
                              Mg, K, and Na on the soil colloides (which build up the CEC)
                              determines much the soil conditions for various crops. It also
                              determines much of soil structure. Ca will make soil loose and crumb,
                              Mg will make it sticky, K has similar effects as Mg and Na I non't
                              quite remember but it is the saltiest and least desirable except in
                              quite small proportions.

                              A mineral-oriented approach (due to Albrecht and his followers) is to
                              use soil tests that measure the proportions of of cations on the
                              colloids, and regulate to recommended proportions by adding the right
                              kind of mineral, often calcitic lime (CaCO3). This approach has, as I
                              get it, been fairly successful in at least American ecological
                              agriculture. Acres USA is a leading source on this approach.

                              A more biological approach is to add organic material, compost etc. I
                              think humus has a perfect pH for plants, and plants can get their
                              nutrients from humus via biological processes. One crux I think is to
                              really make humus, rather than podsol (I mean the stagnated organic
                              matter found on the top of podsolic soils) or quickly burning fresh
                              organic matter. However often this approach succeeds well enough by
                              composting, manuring and/or mulching.

                              Perhaps, just perhaps, there may be some advantage to the former
                              approach in a dryer climate, and to the latter in a more humid climate.

                              There is some Swedish research I have heard of but not been able to
                              spot to the actual source. Anyway it is claimed to be found that
                              liming isn't necessary at all. Supplying organic matter is enough.
                              This may be generally valid or only under some conditions. It is
                              worth noting that Swedish soils tend to be acid, due to cool and
                              fairly humid climate, and naturally low lime status of most soils.
                              Hence liming is often emphasised as necessary in this country. But
                              there is also an old saying that liming gives rich parents and poor children.

                              Biodynamics emphasises to add small quantities of lime to the compost
                              rather than the soil. Biodymanics is reported to lead to a stable pH
                              of around 6.2 without liming the soil. I am not sure if this is local
                              Swedish or Western or Northern European data, or if it is general.

                              Anders Skarlind, Sweden
                            • basjoos
                              ... trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning that his soil was also red clay (similar)... ... Sounds like you have that typical red
                              Message 14 of 24 , Aug 27, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine
                                trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning
                                that his soil was also red clay (similar)...
                                >
                                >
                                Sounds like you have that typical red clay with little to no topsoil
                                that is the end result of cropland that has been mined of its topsoil
                                by poor agricultural practices (i.e. a continuous monoculture of
                                cotton) and then abandoned when the crop yields declined to grow back
                                in scraggly pine trees. I garden in upstate SC and am very familiar
                                with this type of soil. The fastest way to restore the topsoil:
                                Clear the pines (trunks can be delimbed and buried in trenches
                                parallel to the contour lines, chip or slow compost (brush pile) the
                                needles and branches for future use as mulch). Then spread up to a
                                foot thick layer of hay over the future vegetable beds and scatter a
                                thin layer of manure on top of the hay (preferably aged manure that is
                                full of fungi and microorganisms). Then for the next few months keep
                                the hay moist (use a sprinkler during dry spells) and the hay/manure
                                mix will sheet compost down to an inch or two of topsoil. This
                                process will of course take longer in the winter than in the summer.
                                Once completed you can either repeat the process to add another layer
                                of topsoil, plant a leguminous green manure crop, or start some
                                limited gardening (while adding plenty of additional compost to each
                                new crop. It would best to locate your beds in an area that you can
                                easily irrigate if we keep having summers like these last two.
                              • Dieter Brand
                                Many thanks to John, Jeff and Anders for their input on liming.   We have mostly badly compacted clay soil which probably contributes to the acidity.  Liming
                                Message 15 of 24 , Aug 27, 2008
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                                  Many thanks to John, Jeff and Anders for their input on liming.

                                  We have mostly badly compacted clay soil which probably contributes to the acidity.� Liming is unknown by local farmers.� They do use calcium nitrate fertilizers, but the amount of Ca that gets to the field this way is too small for it to have much effect.� Some of my foreign friends use hydraulic lime.� And it is amazing to see how the concrete like structure of the dry clay will turn into a darker crumblier soil in front of your eyes.� I haven�t used it except in a small scale trial.� I did use ashes from our wood stove, which has a bit the same effect.� But I think wood ash has more K than Ca.� Anyway, after reading Fukuoka I stopped using it in the garden and spread it on the hillsides instead.� But I think, I will start using in the garden it again.� I guess that if we want to go down that road it is better to use some natural soil amendment such as rock dust or some sea weed product rather than straight lime.

                                  Anders, in German too we say that �liming makes rich parents and poor children�. Why do you think that in a dry climate a �mineral� approach may be better than the �biological� approach?

                                  Dieter Brand
                                  Portugal

                                  PS:� I don�t know if Ishaq is still with us, but if he is he may want to check on the work Sepp Holzer did in Austria.� He has lately been reclaimed by the Permaculture movement, but Sepp has been doing his thing long before anybody talked about Permaculture.� He improved his soil by cutting down the pine trees and injecting a fungus into the logs to accelerate decomposition.

                                  --- On Tue, 8/26/08, Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:

                                  From: Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Liming clay soil, anyone? was: Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, August 26, 2008, 7:50 AM






                                  Lime (CaCO3 or dolomite lime which also has MgCO3) is important in at
                                  least three ways:

                                  1. As a plant nutrient
                                  Calcium (Ca) is needed by e g legumes, brassicas and I think also
                                  tomatoes and pumpkins.

                                  2. For increasing pH
                                  pH has importance for the availability of most plant nutrients.

                                  3. For regulating soil cation exchange capacity (CEC).
                                  This largely goes back to William A. Albrecht. Jeff touched on the
                                  subjecy without giving reference to Albrecht. The proportions of Ca,
                                  Mg, K, and Na on the soil colloides (which build up the CEC)
                                  determines much the soil conditions for various crops. It also
                                  determines much of soil structure. Ca will make soil loose and crumb,
                                  Mg will make it sticky, K has similar effects as Mg and Na I non't
                                  quite remember but it is the saltiest and least desirable except in
                                  quite small proportions.

                                  A mineral-oriented approach (due to Albrecht and his followers) is to
                                  use soil tests that measure the proportions of of cations on the
                                  colloids, and regulate to recommended proportions by adding the right
                                  kind of mineral, often calcitic lime (CaCO3). This approach has, as I
                                  get it, been fairly successful in at least American ecological
                                  agriculture. Acres USA is a leading source on this approach.

                                  A more biological approach is to add organic material, compost etc. I
                                  think humus has a perfect pH for plants, and plants can get their
                                  nutrients from humus via biological processes. One crux I think is to
                                  really make humus, rather than podsol (I mean the stagnated organic
                                  matter found on the top of podsolic soils) or quickly burning fresh
                                  organic matter. However often this approach succeeds well enough by
                                  composting, manuring and/or mulching.

                                  Perhaps, just perhaps, there may be some advantage to the former
                                  approach in a dryer climate, and to the latter in a more humid climate.

                                  There is some Swedish research I have heard of but not been able to
                                  spot to the actual source. Anyway it is claimed to be found that
                                  liming isn't necessary at all. Supplying organic matter is enough.
                                  This may be generally valid or only under some conditions. It is
                                  worth noting that Swedish soils tend to be acid, due to cool and
                                  fairly humid climate, and naturally low lime status of most soils.
                                  Hence liming is often emphasised as necessary in this country. But
                                  there is also an old saying that liming gives rich parents and poor children.

                                  Biodynamics emphasises to add small quantities of lime to the compost
                                  rather than the soil. Biodymanics is reported to lead to a stable pH
                                  of around 6.2 without liming the soil. I am not sure if this is local
                                  Swedish or Western or Northern European data, or if it is general.

                                  Anders Skarlind, Sweden


















                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                  786   Thank you! yet another element to factor in...We ve had a TON of rain this week though; non-stop...What size area should I start with?(as of now, it s
                                  Message 16 of 24 , Aug 27, 2008
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                                    786

                                      Thank you! yet another element to factor in...We've had a TON of rain this week though; non-stop...What size area should I start with?(as of now, it's just me and MAYBE one other person...)

                                    --- On Wed, 8/27/08, basjoos <MKTurner7@...> wrote:
                                    From: basjoos <MKTurner7@...>
                                    Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Wednesday, August 27, 2008, 4:33 PM











                                    --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Ishaq Abdulkabir

                                    <iabdulkabir@ ...> wrote:

                                    >

                                    > We have red "georgia" clay as our soil; and a lot of pine

                                    trees...very foresty.  I do seem to remember Mr. Fukuoka mentioning

                                    that his soil was also red clay (similar)...

                                    >

                                    >

                                    Sounds like you have that typical red clay with little to no topsoil

                                    that is the end result of cropland that has been mined of its topsoil

                                    by poor agricultural practices (i.e. a continuous monoculture of

                                    cotton) and then abandoned when the crop yields declined to grow back

                                    in scraggly pine trees. I garden in upstate SC and am very familiar

                                    with this type of soil. The fastest way to restore the topsoil:

                                    Clear the pines (trunks can be delimbed and buried in trenches

                                    parallel to the contour lines, chip or slow compost (brush pile) the

                                    needles and branches for future use as mulch). Then spread up to a

                                    foot thick layer of hay over the future vegetable beds and scatter a

                                    thin layer of manure on top of the hay (preferably aged manure that is

                                    full of fungi and microorganisms) . Then for the next few months keep

                                    the hay moist (use a sprinkler during dry spells) and the hay/manure

                                    mix will sheet compost down to an inch or two of topsoil. This

                                    process will of course take longer in the winter than in the summer.

                                    Once completed you can either repeat the process to add another layer

                                    of topsoil, plant a leguminous green manure crop, or start some

                                    limited gardening (while adding plenty of additional compost to each

                                    new crop. It would best to locate your beds in an area that you can

                                    easily irrigate if we keep having summers like these last two.





























                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Anders Skarlind
                                    Dieter, I know too little of farming in dry climates. But I thought that it might be more difficult to get enough mulch and to keep the humus in the soil. I
                                    Message 17 of 24 , Aug 27, 2008
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                                      Dieter, I know too little of farming in dry climates. But I thought
                                      that it might be more difficult to get enough mulch and to keep the
                                      humus in the soil. I also think that in USA and Australia, Albrecht's
                                      methods are to a large extent used in comparatively dry areas. But I
                                      am not sure.

                                      BTW the rich parents - poor children I've heard explained by lime
                                      extracting/mining the nutrients from the soil. I have also heard of
                                      lime burning humus out. Don't know if these are correct notions. I
                                      assume it is more valid for quicklime Ca(OH)2 than for ground
                                      limestone CaCO3. And even more for the burned lime (forgot the
                                      correct English term) CaO if used at all.

                                      Anders

                                      At 23:37 2008-08-27, you wrote:
                                      >Anders, in German too we say that "liming makes rich parents and
                                      >poor children". Why do you think that in a dry climate a "mineral"
                                      >approach may be better than the "biological" approach?
                                      >
                                      >Dieter Brand
                                      >Portugal
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >--- On Tue, 8/26/08, Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >3. For regulating soil cation exchange capacity (CEC).
                                      >This largely goes back to William A. Albrecht. Jeff touched on the
                                      >subjecy without giving reference to Albrecht. The proportions of Ca,
                                      >Mg, K, and Na on the soil colloides (which build up the CEC)
                                      >determines much the soil conditions for various crops. It also
                                      >determines much of soil structure. Ca will make soil loose and crumb,
                                      >Mg will make it sticky, K has similar effects as Mg and Na I non't
                                      >quite remember but it is the saltiest and least desirable except in
                                      >quite small proportions.
                                      >
                                      >A mineral-oriented approach (due to Albrecht and his followers) is to
                                      >use soil tests that measure the proportions of of cations on the
                                      >colloids, and regulate to recommended proportions by adding the right
                                      >kind of mineral, often calcitic lime (CaCO3). This approach has, as I
                                      >get it, been fairly successful in at least American ecological
                                      >agriculture. Acres USA is a leading source on this approach.
                                      >
                                      >A more biological approach is to add organic material, compost etc. I
                                      >think humus has a perfect pH for plants, and plants can get their
                                      >nutrients from humus via biological processes. One crux I think is to
                                      >really make humus, rather than podsol (I mean the stagnated organic
                                      >matter found on the top of podsolic soils) or quickly burning fresh
                                      >organic matter. However often this approach succeeds well enough by
                                      >composting, manuring and/or mulching.
                                      >
                                      >Perhaps, just perhaps, there may be some advantage to the former
                                      >approach in a dryer climate, and to the latter in a more humid climate.
                                      >
                                      >Anders Skarlind, Sweden
                                    • basjoos
                                      ... rain this week though; non-stop...What size area should I start with?(as of now, it s just me and MAYBE one other person...) ... It depends on how much
                                      Message 18 of 24 , Aug 28, 2008
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                                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                        <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > 786
                                        >
                                        >   Thank you! yet another element to factor in...We've had a TON of
                                        rain this week though; non-stop...What size area should I start
                                        with?(as of now, it's just me and MAYBE one other person...)
                                        >

                                        It depends on how much time you have to devote to your vegetable
                                        garden, what crops you want to grow, and to what degree of
                                        self-sufficiency (vegetables, vegetables AND grains, supporting small
                                        livestock, etc.), and, if you are irrigating, how much your water
                                        source can support. It probably would be best to start with an area
                                        that won't overwealm you and then expand in coming years as you get an
                                        idea of what gardening involves.

                                        My standard bed size is 20 feet by 5 feet and I started out with 4
                                        beds in a 50 feet by 25 feet space. I have since added 4 more beds
                                        and an area devoted to berry and fruit trees. The garden now covers a
                                        30 feet by 100 feet area.
                                      • Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                        thank you; something else I should mention...We had a small pond on our land that washed out during heavy rain years ago (the dirt road beside it was one of
                                        Message 19 of 24 , Aug 28, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          thank you; something else I should mention...We had a small pond on our land that washed out during heavy rain years ago (the dirt road beside it was one of the sides); it's now become a small creek that flows to a river a mile or two away.  The area has small trees and grass, keeping it shaded but not smothered, and the ground is still very soft and moist, even years later...any ideas about the area/dirt?

                                          Ishaq

                                          --- On Thu, 8/28/08, basjoos <MKTurner7@...> wrote:
                                          From: basjoos <MKTurner7@...>
                                          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Thursday, August 28, 2008, 10:00 AM











                                          --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Ishaq Abdulkabir

                                          <iabdulkabir@ ...> wrote:

                                          >

                                          > 786

                                          >

                                          >   Thank you! yet another element to factor in...We've had a TON of

                                          rain this week though; non-stop...What size area should I start

                                          with?(as of now, it's just me and MAYBE one other person...)

                                          >



                                          It depends on how much time you have to devote to your vegetable

                                          garden, what crops you want to grow, and to what degree of

                                          self-sufficiency (vegetables, vegetables AND grains, supporting small

                                          livestock, etc.), and, if you are irrigating, how much your water

                                          source can support. It probably would be best to start with an area

                                          that won't overwealm you and then expand in coming years as you get an

                                          idea of what gardening involves.



                                          My standard bed size is 20 feet by 5 feet and I started out with 4

                                          beds in a 50 feet by 25 feet space. I have since added 4 more beds

                                          and an area devoted to berry and fruit trees. The garden now covers a

                                          30 feet by 100 feet area.





























                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • B Kalahan
                                          I know i m still a rookie gardener, but I plan on evolving into a total plant nerd. Anyway, I don t think the pine trees have been addressed. I ve never seen
                                          Message 20 of 24 , Aug 28, 2008
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                                            I know i'm still a rookie gardener, but I plan on evolving into a total plant nerd. Anyway, I don't think the pine trees have been addressed. I've never seen anything grow where the pine needles drop. And i've only seen strong native plants, which some call weeds, growing anywhere near the base of a pine tree. I don't have anything else to contribute to this discussion. Blessed be your heart and mind and may all life be accepted as life. Propegate that which brings you nourishment, physically and spiritually.

                                            Namaste,
                                            Brad
                                          • B Kalahan
                                             organicvolunteers.com. Seriously this is exactly where you should be looking if you want to start learning to grow food from someone who is experienced. I
                                            Message 21 of 24 , Aug 28, 2008
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                                               organicvolunteers.com. Seriously this is exactly where you should be looking if you want to start learning to grow food from someone who is experienced. I might have already sent you this link being as though I reccommend it to many. If so i'll remind you that it is important to find out all accommodations before visiting a farm. Keep in mind that if someone has been farming a certain way for a decade or longer it may be difficult to convince them that your way is better for whatever reason you may have. If you would like to do something your way ask for a 4'x4' section and practice with this aside from the responsibilities you have agreed upon. Blessings my brother, One Love.
                                               
                                              Namaste,
                                              Brad

















                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • basjoos
                                              ... our land that washed out during heavy rain years ago (the dirt road beside it was one of the sides); it s now become a small creek that flows to a river a
                                              Message 22 of 24 , Aug 29, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                                <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > thank you; something else I should mention...We had a small pond on
                                                our land that washed out during heavy rain years ago (the dirt road
                                                beside it was one of the sides); it's now become a small creek that
                                                flows to a river a mile or two away.  The area has small trees and
                                                grass, keeping it shaded but not smothered, and the ground is still
                                                very soft and moist, even years later...any ideas about the area/dirt?
                                                >
                                                > Ishaq
                                                >
                                                >
                                                If that pond had been there for any length of time before the dam
                                                washed out, it should have built up a layer of sediment on the former
                                                pond bottom. The type of plants growing in it will give you some
                                                idea as to richness of the soil. If it is not too shaded or
                                                inconveniently located, that might be a good place to put your
                                                garden. Depending on the condition of the watershed feeding it, the
                                                pond sediment soil is likely to be more silty and sandy than the
                                                native red clay soil and you could rig up a gravity feed irrigation
                                                system from the creek to water the garden.
                                              • Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                                actually, the pond had been there prior to the washout for years.  The washout was a decade ago.  The grass that grows there is a lush green single blade; as
                                                Message 23 of 24 , Aug 29, 2008
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                                                  actually, the pond had been there prior to the washout for years.  The washout was a decade ago.  The grass that grows there is a lush green single blade; as far as gravity feed irrigation, any site or reading to conceptualize it?  Pardon my newbie ignorance...

                                                  --- On Fri, 8/29/08, basjoos <MKTurner7@...> wrote:

                                                  From: basjoos <MKTurner7@...>
                                                  Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Hello, my name is Ishaq...
                                                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 9:08 PM






                                                  --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                                  <iabdulkabir@ ...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > thank you; something else I should mention...We had a small pond on
                                                  our land that washed out during heavy rain years ago (the dirt road
                                                  beside it was one of the sides); it's now become a small creek that
                                                  flows to a river a mile or two away.  The area has small trees and
                                                  grass, keeping it shaded but not smothered, and the ground is still
                                                  very soft and moist, even years later...any ideas about the area/dirt?
                                                  >
                                                  > Ishaq
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  If that pond had been there for any length of time before the dam
                                                  washed out, it should have built up a layer of sediment on the former
                                                  pond bottom. The type of plants growing in it will give you some
                                                  idea as to richness of the soil. If it is not too shaded or
                                                  inconveniently located, that might be a good place to put your
                                                  garden. Depending on the condition of the watershed feeding it, the
                                                  pond sediment soil is likely to be more silty and sandy than the
                                                  native red clay soil and you could rig up a gravity feed irrigation
                                                  system from the creek to water the garden.


















                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • basjoos
                                                  ... The washout was a decade ago.  The grass that grows there is a lush green single blade; as far as gravity feed irrigation, any site or reading to
                                                  Message 24 of 24 , Sep 1, 2008
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Ishaq Abdulkabir
                                                    <iabdulkabir@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > actually, the pond had been there prior to the washout for years. 
                                                    The washout was a decade ago.  The grass that grows there is a lush
                                                    green single blade; as far as gravity feed irrigation, any site or
                                                    reading to conceptualize it?  Pardon my newbie ignorance...
                                                    >

                                                    If you have lush grass growing on your old pond site, it sounds like
                                                    the soil there is in better condition than the acidic red clay soil
                                                    under the pines. To set up a gravity feed irrigation system, locate
                                                    the highest elevation on your garden site. Follow the contour line
                                                    from that location to where it intersects with the creek, then go
                                                    upstream until you gain another 3 to 10 feet in elevation to provide
                                                    sufficient head to drive the water flow through the pipes. Then
                                                    either locate a natural pool in the creek near that location or
                                                    partially dam the creek to form a small pool that you can draw your
                                                    water from. Then run a pipe (2" to 4" diameter) from the pool to
                                                    your garden, adding whatever tees and ball valves are needed to feed
                                                    water to your garden beds.
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