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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage

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  • lucia@lrw.net
    this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some amaranth in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would like to do it
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 5, 2008
      this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some amaranth
      in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
      like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
      mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
      amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
      into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
      when it's small.

      -lucia

      On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:

      > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
      > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks into the
      > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
      >
      > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the ground
      > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
      > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
      > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
      > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the cycles of
      > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
      > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
      >
      > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to turn over
      > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the current
      > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
      > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
      > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would reduce the
      > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do). Therefore with
      > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the vegetation cut
      > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow. Depending
      > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to spread the
      > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds and helps
      > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
      >
      > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
      > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming will never
      > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and not a
      > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
      >
      > Good Luck
      >
      > Jamie
      > Mas Franch
      >
      > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Dear friends,
      > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
      > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
      > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
      > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
      > > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
      > > helps in sowing.
      > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
      > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
      > > in the same place.
      > > Raju
      > >
      > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
      > > <fullcircleherbs@... <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
      > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
      > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
      > > >
      > > > Thanks,
      > > > Cyn
      > > >
      > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > >>
      > > >> Dear friend,
      > > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
      > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
      > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
      > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
      > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
      > > >> Raju
      > > >>
      > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
      > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
      > > >> >
      > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
      > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
      > > > spading
      > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
      > > >> >
      > > >> > kind regards,
      > > >> >
      > > >> > jake
      > > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
      > > >> >
      > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > > >> >
      > > >> >
      > > >>
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >

      --
      <
    • Nandan Palaparambil
      Dear Raju, Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 5, 2008
        Dear Raju,

        Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I am wasting the seeds, it costed me around 80 rupees (2 USD).

        I tried making seed balls, but it was not balls, but a light coating of soil was there on the seeds. Even if 50% of the seeds germinate I can consider it as big success. Only question is that without proper sunlight and without touching the soil, if the seeds germinate.



        Regards,
        Nandan

        --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
        From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:59 AM











        Dear friends,

        To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds

        germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of

        the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is

        true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed

        balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which

        helps in sowing.

        Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the

        cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it

        in the same place.

        Raju



        On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain

        <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com> wrote:

        > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to

        > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?

        >

        > Thanks,

        > Cyn

        >

        > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>

        > wrote:

        >

        >>

        >> Dear friend,

        >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology

        >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous

        >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes

        >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it

        >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).

        >> Raju

        >>

        >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:

        >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."

        >> >

        >> > Greetings, Raju,

        >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or

        > spading

        >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.

        >> >

        >> > kind regards,

        >> >

        >> > jake

        >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com

        >> >

        >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        >> >

        >> >

        >>

        >

        >



























        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Raju Titus
        Dear Nandan, Seeds of legumes germinate in the grass cover without sun light but sufficient moisture is required. But after germination small seedlings will
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 5, 2008
          Dear Nandan,
          Seeds of legumes germinate in the grass cover without sun light but
          sufficient moisture is required. But after germination small
          seedlings will not come out without sun light in this stage cut grass
          and spread over germinating seeds.
          Raju

          On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Nandan Palaparambil
          <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
          > Dear Raju,
          >
          > Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing
          > cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I am
          > wasting the seeds, it costed me around 80 rupees (2 USD).
          >
          > I tried making seed balls, but it was not balls, but a light coating of soil
          > was there on the seeds. Even if 50% of the seeds germinate I can consider it
          > as big success. Only question is that without proper sunlight and without
          > touching the soil, if the seeds germinate.
          >
          > Regards,
          > Nandan
          >
          > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
          > From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
          > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
          > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:59 AM
          >
          > Dear friends,
          >
          > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
          >
          > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
          >
          > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
          >
          > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
          >
          > balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
          >
          > helps in sowing.
          >
          > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
          >
          > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
          >
          > in the same place.
          >
          > Raju
          >
          > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
          >
          > <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com> wrote:
          >
          >> If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
          >
          >> get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
          >
          >>
          >
          >> Thanks,
          >
          >> Cyn
          >
          >>
          >
          >> --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>
          >
          >> wrote:
          >
          >>
          >
          >>>
          >
          >>> Dear friend,
          >
          >>> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
          >
          >>> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
          >
          >>> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
          >
          >>> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
          >
          >>> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
          >
          >>> Raju
          >
          >>>
          >
          >>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:
          >
          >>> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
          >
          >>> >
          >
          >>> > Greetings, Raju,
          >
          >>> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
          >
          >> spading
          >
          >>> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
          >
          >>> >
          >
          >>> > kind regards,
          >
          >>> >
          >
          >>> > jake
          >
          >>> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com
          >
          >>> >
          >
          >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >>> >
          >
          >>> >
          >
          >>>
          >
          >>
          >
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Nandan Palaparambil
          Dear Raju, Thanks for this really valuable input. I will follow this method and will get back with the results soon. I am doing this farm management sitting at
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 6, 2008
            Dear Raju,

            Thanks for this really valuable input. I will follow this method and will get back with the results soon.

            I am doing this farm management sitting at a distance of 500KMs. But I could broadcast the seeds myself when I visited the place. I have asked the person who works in the farm to follow this method, but we have to wait and see how he manages that.


            Regards,
            Nandan


            --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
            From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 10:20 AM











            Dear Nandan,

            Seeds of legumes germinate in the grass cover without sun light but

            sufficient moisture is required. But after germination small

            seedlings will not come out without sun light in this stage cut grass

            and spread over germinating seeds.

            Raju


             




















            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Shawn Turner
            Seeds dont need to touch soil to germinate.  Here in the U.S. in grammar school the first science projects they do is beans in a paper towel.  The bean or
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 8, 2008
              Seeds dont need to touch soil to germinate.  Here in the U.S. in grammar school the first science projects they do is beans in a paper towel.  The bean or Grass seed sprouts and sends out a taproot right through the papertowel.  They put a papertowel in a cup or a jar.  They then wet it and place a seed in the cup, between the paper towel.  The paper towel gives the seed moisture as well as regulate humidity which all seeds have to have in order to sprout.



              ----- Original Message ----
              From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:27:43 PM
              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage


              Dear Raju,

              Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I am wasting the seeds, it costed me around 80 rupees (2 USD).

              I tried making seed balls, but it was not balls, but a light coating of soil was there on the seeds. Even if 50% of the seeds germinate I can consider it as big success. Only question is that without proper sunlight and without touching the soil, if the seeds germinate.

              Regards,
              Nandan

              --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com> wrote:
              From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com>
              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
              To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
              Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:59 AM

              Dear friends,

              To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds

              germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of

              the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is

              true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed

              balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which

              helps in sowing.

              Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the

              cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it

              in the same place.

              Raju

              On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain

              <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com> wrote:

              > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to

              > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?

              >

              > Thanks,

              > Cyn

              >

              > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>

              > wrote:

              >

              >>

              >> Dear friend,

              >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology

              >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous

              >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes

              >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it

              >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).

              >> Raju

              >>

              >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:

              >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."

              >> >

              >> > Greetings, Raju,

              >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or

              > spading

              >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.

              >> >

              >> > kind regards,

              >> >

              >> > jake

              >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com

              >> >

              >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              >> >

              >> >

              >>

              >

              >











              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • ml1
              I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated and those that
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 27, 2008
                I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows
                to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated
                and those that did faired poorly. The same seed on tilled soil did fine.
                Would I have gotten better germination with seedballs?

                I also planted some amaranth on a paddock I intentionally tilled with
                pigs. I had good germination on open soil but no germination on areas
                that still retained some grass.

                I'd really love to be able to establish annuals on pasture. I'd love to
                hear from anyone who was been able to do it successfully.

                Thanks,

                Pete
                Kansas, USA


                lucia@... wrote:
                >
                > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                > amaranth
                > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
                > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
                > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
                > when it's small.
                >
                > -lucia
                >
                > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                >
                > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
                > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks
                > into the
                > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                > >
                > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the
                > ground
                > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
                > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
                > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
                > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                > cycles of
                > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
                > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                > >
                > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to
                > turn over
                > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                > current
                > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
                > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
                > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                > reduce the
                > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                > Therefore with
                > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                > vegetation cut
                > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow.
                > Depending
                > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                > spread the
                > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds
                > and helps
                > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                > >
                > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
                > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                > will never
                > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and
                > not a
                > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                > >
                > > Good Luck
                > >
                > > Jamie
                > > Mas Franch
                > >
                > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...
                > <mailto:rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                > >
                > > > Dear friends,
                > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                > > > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                > > > helps in sowing.
                > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                > > > in the same place.
                > > > Raju
                > > >
                > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                > > > <fullcircleherbs@... <mailto:fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>
                > <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                > soil to
                > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                > > > >
                > > > > Thanks,
                > > > > Cyn
                > > > >
                > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
                > > > > wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > >>
                > > > >> Dear friend,
                > > > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
                > ecology
                > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become
                > porous
                > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                > > > >> Raju
                > > > >>
                > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
                > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                > > > > spading
                > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > kind regards,
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > jake
                > > > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > > > >> >
                > > > >> >
                > > > >>
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                > --
                > <
                >
                >
              • Dieter Brand
                Pete,   I have successfully used a mixture of rye and vetch in an existing stand of weeds and grass.  In the South of Portugal, we usually get enough rain in
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 28, 2008
                  Pete,
                   
                  I have successfully used a mixture of rye and vetch in an existing stand of weeds and grass.  In the South of Portugal, we usually get enough rain in November for direct broadcasting of winter annuals even without coating the seeds.  Check the weather forecast: if you can get 3 to 5 consecutive days of rain, you stand good chances that your seeds will germinate before ants, rodents and birds can get to them.  Other seeds that work in an existing grass sod are lupines and faba beans.  But you need to drill the faba beans into the ground or they will be eaten.
                   
                  Dieter

                  --- On Sun, 7/27/08, ml1 <ml1@...> wrote:

                  From: ml1 <ml1@...>
                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 5:39 PM






                  I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows
                  to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated
                  and those that did faired poorly. The same seed on tilled soil did fine.
                  Would I have gotten better germination with seedballs?

                  I also planted some amaranth on a paddock I intentionally tilled with
                  pigs. I had good germination on open soil but no germination on areas
                  that still retained some grass.

                  I'd really love to be able to establish annuals on pasture. I'd love to
                  hear from anyone who was been able to do it successfully.

                  Thanks,

                  Pete
                  Kansas, USA

                  lucia@... wrote:
                  >
                  > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                  > amaranth
                  > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                  > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
                  > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                  > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
                  > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
                  > when it's small.
                  >
                  > -lucia
                  >
                  > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
                  > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks
                  > into the
                  > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                  > >
                  > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the
                  > ground
                  > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
                  > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
                  > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
                  > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                  > cycles of
                  > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
                  > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                  > >
                  > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to
                  > turn over
                  > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                  > current
                  > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
                  > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
                  > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                  > reduce the
                  > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                  > Therefore with
                  > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                  > vegetation cut
                  > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow.
                  > Depending
                  > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                  > spread the
                  > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds
                  > and helps
                  > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                  > >
                  > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
                  > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                  > will never
                  > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and
                  > not a
                  > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                  > >
                  > > Good Luck
                  > >
                  > > Jamie
                  > > Mas Franch
                  > >
                  > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com
                  > <mailto:rajuktitus% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > Dear friends,
                  > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                  > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                  > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                  > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                  > > > balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                  > > > helps in sowing.
                  > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                  > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                  > > > in the same place.
                  > > > Raju
                  > > >
                  > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                  > > > <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com <mailto:fullcircleh erbs%40gmail. com>
                  > <fullcircleherbs% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                  > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                  > soil to
                  > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Thanks,
                  > > > > Cyn
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                  > <mailto:fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> <fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> ,
                  > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>
                  > > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >> Dear friend,
                  > > > >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
                  > ecology
                  > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become
                  > porous
                  > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                  > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                  > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                  > > > >> Raju
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:
                  > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                  > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                  > > > > spading
                  > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> > kind regards,
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> > jake
                  > > > >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >> >
                  > > > >>
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > --
                  > <
                  >
                  >


















                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Steven Smith
                  I attended a field day last night at a friend s farm here in central Iowa. Craig has inter seeded turnips into their corn and soybean fields before canopy to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 30, 2008
                    I attended a field day last night at a friend's farm here in central Iowa. Craig has inter seeded turnips into their corn and soybean fields before canopy to improve the nutritional quality of the stover for winter grazing. Despite the heavy shade of the now six foot tall corn the turnips seem to have germinated well. Craig has been advised that after the corn comes off in late September to early October that the turnips will continue to grow and then be available to the stock he'll turn out in late November.

                    Another attender of the field day has been over seeding his pastures with rape, the annual oil seed, for some years and states that every thing he produces--cattle, lamb, poultry and especially hogs--seem to love it. I think he is drilling it. And Craig cultivated after broadcasting the turnip seed, so good seed to soil contact seems to be the key. We were also told of a farmer in NE Iowa who has been drilling in annual turnips and winter wheat to improve the nutrition of his permanent pastures. Turnips improve the stocking for winter forage, the winter wheat makes a great early spring graze, and he also lets the wheat head out and harvests a portion. I have an organic dairy farmer friend who is feeding wheat as a grain supplement to his fresh cows, so I don't see why it couldn't be drilled into pasture, grazed, and a portion harvested as grain.

                    The key to good germ seems to be knocking back the perennials through close grazing or mowing and good soil to seed contact by either trampling with stock or drilling.

                    Steve Smith
                    Two Friends Farm, Iowa
                    641-751-2851



                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: ml1 <ml1@...>
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:39:46 AM
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage


                    I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows
                    to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated
                    and those that did faired poorly. The same seed on tilled soil did fine.
                    Would I have gotten better germination with seedballs?

                    I also planted some amaranth on a paddock I intentionally tilled with
                    pigs. I had good germination on open soil but no germination on areas
                    that still retained some grass.

                    I'd really love to be able to establish annuals on pasture. I'd love to
                    hear from anyone who was been able to do it successfully.

                    Thanks,

                    Pete
                    Kansas, USA

                    lucia@... wrote:
                    >
                    > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                    > amaranth
                    > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                    > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
                    > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                    > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
                    > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
                    > when it's small.
                    >
                    > -lucia
                    >
                    > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                    >
                    > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
                    > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks
                    > into the
                    > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                    > >
                    > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the
                    > ground
                    > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
                    > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
                    > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
                    > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                    > cycles of
                    > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
                    > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                    > >
                    > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to
                    > turn over
                    > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                    > current
                    > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
                    > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
                    > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                    > reduce the
                    > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                    > Therefore with
                    > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                    > vegetation cut
                    > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow.
                    > Depending
                    > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                    > spread the
                    > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds
                    > and helps
                    > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                    > >
                    > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
                    > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                    > will never
                    > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and
                    > not a
                    > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                    > >
                    > > Good Luck
                    > >
                    > > Jamie
                    > > Mas Franch
                    > >
                    > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com
                    > <mailto:rajuktitus% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > > Dear friends,
                    > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                    > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                    > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                    > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                    > > > balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                    > > > helps in sowing.
                    > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                    > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                    > > > in the same place.
                    > > > Raju
                    > > >
                    > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                    > > > <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com <mailto:fullcircleh erbs%40gmail. com>
                    > <fullcircleherbs% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                    > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                    > soil to
                    > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thanks,
                    > > > > Cyn
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                    > <mailto:fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> <fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> ,
                    > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> Dear friend,
                    > > > >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
                    > ecology
                    > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become
                    > porous
                    > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                    > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                    > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                    > > > >> Raju
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:
                    > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                    > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                    > > > > spading
                    > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> > kind regards,
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> > jake
                    > > > >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >> >
                    > > > >>
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > --
                    > <
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • michael
                    Friends, the degree to which you adhere to (organic) zero tillage depends on how long you ve got. If time is no problem, and if alien pasture grasses are your
                    Message 9 of 15 , Sep 8, 2008
                      Friends,

                      the degree to which you adhere to (organic) zero tillage depends on
                      how long you've got. If time is no problem, and if alien pasture
                      grasses are your problem, cutting the grasses (to 15cm) and
                      broadcasting your seed will eventually work. If you want it to take
                      less than a decade, you can burn the brown grasses in the early
                      Spring and drill your seed, cutting the grasses to 15cm then until
                      your seedlings get established. You get the carbon of the burning
                      and the inhibition of the mowing.

                      Golden rod can only be gotten rid of by mowing. It inhibits the
                      germination of other plants.

                      Amaranth is very common naturally (here) in burned and mowed fields.
                      If you want the cultivated variety of amaranth, drill seeds of that.
                      It's offspring will hybridize with the wild in the seed bank but the
                      heads will generally be on the large size of the cultivated, at least
                      for years. We get amaranth popping in all kinds of places even
                      though we seeded only once. We eat the leaves green and steamed.
                      The grain goes into bread with a large tithe for the birds in Winter.

                      - Michael

                      On Jul 5, 2008, at 8:40 AM, lucia@... wrote:

                      > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                      > amaranth
                      > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                      > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer
                      > it is
                      > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                      > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow
                      > seeds
                      > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very
                      > competitive
                      > when it's small.
                      >
                      > -lucia
                      >
                      > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                      >
                      > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate
                      > on the
                      > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root
                      > sinks into the
                      > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                      > >
                      > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to
                      > the ground
                      > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So,
                      > I have
                      > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to
                      > weaken the
                      > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for
                      > particular
                      > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                      > cycles of
                      > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of
                      > micro- and
                      > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                      > >
                      > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish
                      > to turn over
                      > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                      > current
                      > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best
                      > moment for
                      > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild
                      > herbs and
                      > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                      > reduce the
                      > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                      > Therefore with
                      > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                      > vegetation cut
                      > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to
                      > grow. Depending
                      > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                      > spread the
                      > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from
                      > birds and helps
                      > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                      > >
                      > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer
                      > them as
                      > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                      > will never
                      > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration
                      > and not a
                      > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                      > >
                      > > Good Luck
                      > >
                      > > Jamie
                      > > Mas Franch
                      > >
                      > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Dear friends,
                      > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                      > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the
                      > top of
                      > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But
                      > it is
                      > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by
                      > rats,birds,insects. Seed
                      > > > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods
                      > which
                      > > > helps in sowing.
                      > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                      > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch
                      > loosely it
                      > > > in the same place.
                      > > > Raju
                      > > >
                      > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                      > > > <fullcircleherbs@... <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                      > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                      > soil to
                      > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the
                      > grass?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks,
                      > > > > Cyn
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%
                      > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                      > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
                      > > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > >>
                      > > > >> Dear friend,
                      > > > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to
                      > the ecology
                      > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is
                      > become porous
                      > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil
                      > chokes
                      > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in
                      > side it
                      > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                      > > > >> Raju
                      > > > >>
                      > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
                      > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                      > > > >> >
                      > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                      > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a
                      > shovel or
                      > > > > spading
                      > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                      > > > >> >
                      > > > >> > kind regards,
                      > > > >> >
                      > > > >> > jake
                      > > > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
                      > > > >> >


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