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Re: zero tillage

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  • mypovertymountain
    If you don t ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass? Thanks, Cyn ...
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 2, 2008
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      If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
      get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?

      Thanks,
      Cyn

      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Dear friend,
      > Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
      > of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
      > by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
      > porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
      > flows and washes top soil (fertility).
      > Raju
      >
      > On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
      > > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
      > >
      > > Greetings, Raju,
      > > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
      spading
      > > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
      > >
      > > kind regards,
      > >
      > > jake
      > > www.grandprairiefood.com
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Raju Titus
      Dear friends, To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of the soil
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 2, 2008
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        Dear friends,
        To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
        germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
        the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
        true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
        balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
        helps in sowing.
        Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
        cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
        in the same place.
        Raju

        On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
        <fullcircleherbs@...> wrote:
        > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
        > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Cyn
        >
        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
        > wrote:
        >
        >>
        >> Dear friend,
        >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
        >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
        >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
        >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
        >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
        >> Raju
        >>
        >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
        >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
        >> >
        >> > Greetings, Raju,
        >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
        > spading
        >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
        >> >
        >> > kind regards,
        >> >
        >> > jake
        >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
        >> >
        >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >> >
        >> >
        >>
        >
        >
      • Jamie Nicol
        Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks into the soil and
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 3, 2008
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          Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
          surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks into the
          soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.

          I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the ground
          first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
          thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
          vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
          characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the cycles of
          life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
          macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.

          So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to turn over
          to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the current
          years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
          each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
          seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would reduce the
          amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do). Therefore with
          the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the vegetation cut
          back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow. Depending
          on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to spread the
          cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds and helps
          retain moisture, accelerating their germination.

          These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
          suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming will never
          be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and not a
          template, I think we sometimes forget that.

          Good Luck

          Jamie
          Mas Franch

          On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

          > Dear friends,
          > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
          > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
          > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
          > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
          > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
          > helps in sowing.
          > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
          > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
          > in the same place.
          > Raju
          >
          > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
          > <fullcircleherbs@... <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
          > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
          > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
          > >
          > > Thanks,
          > > Cyn
          > >
          > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
          > > wrote:
          > >
          > >>
          > >> Dear friend,
          > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
          > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
          > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
          > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
          > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
          > >> Raju
          > >>
          > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
          > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
          > >> >
          > >> > Greetings, Raju,
          > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
          > > spading
          > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
          > >> >
          > >> > kind regards,
          > >> >
          > >> > jake
          > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
          > >> >
          > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >> >
          > >> >
          > >>
          > >
          > >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Benjamin Koltai
          ... ecology ... Dynamic accumulators with deep taproots (like carrots, dock, and comfrey) will break up soils over time more effectively than metal tools and
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 3, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear friends,
            > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
            > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
            > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
            > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
            > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
            > helps in sowing.
            > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
            > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
            > in the same place.
            > Raju
            >
            > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
            > <fullcircleherbs@...> wrote:
            > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
            > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > > Cyn
            > >
            > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@>
            > > wrote:
            > >
            > >>
            > >> Dear friend,
            > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
            ecology
            > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
            > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
            > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
            > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
            > >> Raju
            > >>
            > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@> wrote:
            > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
            > >> >
            > >> > Greetings, Raju,
            > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
            > > spading
            > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
            > >> >
            > >> > kind regards,
            > >> >
            > >> > jake
            > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
            > >> >
            > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >> >
            > >> >
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            >


            Dynamic accumulators with deep taproots (like carrots, dock, and
            comfrey) will break up soils over time more effectively than metal
            tools and they improve the soil at the same time by bringing nutrients
            from the subsoil.

            -Benjamin
          • lucia@lrw.net
            this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some amaranth in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would like to do it
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 5, 2008
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              this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some amaranth
              in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
              like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
              mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
              amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
              into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
              when it's small.

              -lucia

              On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:

              > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
              > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks into the
              > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
              >
              > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the ground
              > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
              > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
              > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
              > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the cycles of
              > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
              > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
              >
              > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to turn over
              > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the current
              > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
              > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
              > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would reduce the
              > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do). Therefore with
              > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the vegetation cut
              > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow. Depending
              > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to spread the
              > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds and helps
              > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
              >
              > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
              > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming will never
              > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and not a
              > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
              >
              > Good Luck
              >
              > Jamie
              > Mas Franch
              >
              > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Dear friends,
              > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
              > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
              > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
              > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
              > > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
              > > helps in sowing.
              > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
              > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
              > > in the same place.
              > > Raju
              > >
              > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
              > > <fullcircleherbs@... <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
              > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
              > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
              > > >
              > > > Thanks,
              > > > Cyn
              > > >
              > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
              > > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > >>
              > > >> Dear friend,
              > > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
              > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
              > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
              > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
              > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
              > > >> Raju
              > > >>
              > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
              > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
              > > >> >
              > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
              > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
              > > > spading
              > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
              > > >> >
              > > >> > kind regards,
              > > >> >
              > > >> > jake
              > > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
              > > >> >
              > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              > > >> >
              > > >> >
              > > >>
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >

              --
              <
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              Dear Raju, Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 5, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Raju,

                Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I am wasting the seeds, it costed me around 80 rupees (2 USD).

                I tried making seed balls, but it was not balls, but a light coating of soil was there on the seeds. Even if 50% of the seeds germinate I can consider it as big success. Only question is that without proper sunlight and without touching the soil, if the seeds germinate.



                Regards,
                Nandan

                --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:59 AM











                Dear friends,

                To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds

                germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of

                the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is

                true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed

                balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which

                helps in sowing.

                Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the

                cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it

                in the same place.

                Raju



                On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain

                <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com> wrote:

                > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to

                > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?

                >

                > Thanks,

                > Cyn

                >

                > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>

                > wrote:

                >

                >>

                >> Dear friend,

                >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology

                >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous

                >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes

                >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it

                >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).

                >> Raju

                >>

                >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:

                >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."

                >> >

                >> > Greetings, Raju,

                >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or

                > spading

                >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.

                >> >

                >> > kind regards,

                >> >

                >> > jake

                >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com

                >> >

                >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                >> >

                >> >

                >>

                >

                >



























                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Raju Titus
                Dear Nandan, Seeds of legumes germinate in the grass cover without sun light but sufficient moisture is required. But after germination small seedlings will
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 5, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear Nandan,
                  Seeds of legumes germinate in the grass cover without sun light but
                  sufficient moisture is required. But after germination small
                  seedlings will not come out without sun light in this stage cut grass
                  and spread over germinating seeds.
                  Raju

                  On Sat, Jul 5, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Nandan Palaparambil
                  <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                  > Dear Raju,
                  >
                  > Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing
                  > cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I am
                  > wasting the seeds, it costed me around 80 rupees (2 USD).
                  >
                  > I tried making seed balls, but it was not balls, but a light coating of soil
                  > was there on the seeds. Even if 50% of the seeds germinate I can consider it
                  > as big success. Only question is that without proper sunlight and without
                  > touching the soil, if the seeds germinate.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Nandan
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                  > From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
                  > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:59 AM
                  >
                  > Dear friends,
                  >
                  > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                  >
                  > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                  >
                  > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                  >
                  > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                  >
                  > balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                  >
                  > helps in sowing.
                  >
                  > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                  >
                  > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                  >
                  > in the same place.
                  >
                  > Raju
                  >
                  > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                  >
                  > <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com> wrote:
                  >
                  >> If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to
                  >
                  >> get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> Thanks,
                  >
                  >> Cyn
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >> --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>
                  >
                  >> wrote:
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>>
                  >
                  >>> Dear friend,
                  >
                  >>> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology
                  >
                  >>> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous
                  >
                  >>> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                  >
                  >>> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                  >
                  >>> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                  >
                  >>> Raju
                  >
                  >>>
                  >
                  >>> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:
                  >
                  >>> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                  >
                  >>> >
                  >
                  >>> > Greetings, Raju,
                  >
                  >>> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                  >
                  >> spading
                  >
                  >>> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                  >
                  >>> >
                  >
                  >>> > kind regards,
                  >
                  >>> >
                  >
                  >>> > jake
                  >
                  >>> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com
                  >
                  >>> >
                  >
                  >>> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >>> >
                  >
                  >>> >
                  >
                  >>>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                • Nandan Palaparambil
                  Dear Raju, Thanks for this really valuable input. I will follow this method and will get back with the results soon. I am doing this farm management sitting at
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 6, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Raju,

                    Thanks for this really valuable input. I will follow this method and will get back with the results soon.

                    I am doing this farm management sitting at a distance of 500KMs. But I could broadcast the seeds myself when I visited the place. I have asked the person who works in the farm to follow this method, but we have to wait and see how he manages that.


                    Regards,
                    Nandan


                    --- On Sun, 7/6/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                    From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
                    Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Sunday, July 6, 2008, 10:20 AM











                    Dear Nandan,

                    Seeds of legumes germinate in the grass cover without sun light but

                    sufficient moisture is required. But after germination small

                    seedlings will not come out without sun light in this stage cut grass

                    and spread over germinating seeds.

                    Raju


                     




















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Shawn Turner
                    Seeds dont need to touch soil to germinate.  Here in the U.S. in grammar school the first science projects they do is beans in a paper towel.  The bean or
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 8, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Seeds dont need to touch soil to germinate.  Here in the U.S. in grammar school the first science projects they do is beans in a paper towel.  The bean or Grass seed sprouts and sends out a taproot right through the papertowel.  They put a papertowel in a cup or a jar.  They then wet it and place a seed in the cup, between the paper towel.  The paper towel gives the seed moisture as well as regulate humidity which all seeds have to have in order to sprout.



                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, July 5, 2008 1:27:43 PM
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage


                      Dear Raju,

                      Today I have scattered 2Kgs of cowpea and black gram seeds over an existing cover of grass. I had some advices from the elders of the village that I am wasting the seeds, it costed me around 80 rupees (2 USD).

                      I tried making seed balls, but it was not balls, but a light coating of soil was there on the seeds. Even if 50% of the seeds germinate I can consider it as big success. Only question is that without proper sunlight and without touching the soil, if the seeds germinate.

                      Regards,
                      Nandan

                      --- On Thu, 7/3/08, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com> wrote:
                      From: Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com>
                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
                      To: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                      Date: Thursday, July 3, 2008, 10:59 AM

                      Dear friends,

                      To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds

                      germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of

                      the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is

                      true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed

                      balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which

                      helps in sowing.

                      Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the

                      cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it

                      in the same place.

                      Raju

                      On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain

                      <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com> wrote:

                      > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the soil to

                      > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?

                      >

                      > Thanks,

                      > Cyn

                      >

                      > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>

                      > wrote:

                      >

                      >>

                      >> Dear friend,

                      >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the ecology

                      >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become porous

                      >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes

                      >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it

                      >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).

                      >> Raju

                      >>

                      >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:

                      >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."

                      >> >

                      >> > Greetings, Raju,

                      >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or

                      > spading

                      >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.

                      >> >

                      >> > kind regards,

                      >> >

                      >> > jake

                      >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com

                      >> >

                      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      >> >

                      >> >

                      >>

                      >

                      >











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • ml1
                      I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated and those that
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jul 27, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows
                        to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated
                        and those that did faired poorly. The same seed on tilled soil did fine.
                        Would I have gotten better germination with seedballs?

                        I also planted some amaranth on a paddock I intentionally tilled with
                        pigs. I had good germination on open soil but no germination on areas
                        that still retained some grass.

                        I'd really love to be able to establish annuals on pasture. I'd love to
                        hear from anyone who was been able to do it successfully.

                        Thanks,

                        Pete
                        Kansas, USA


                        lucia@... wrote:
                        >
                        > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                        > amaranth
                        > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                        > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
                        > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                        > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
                        > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
                        > when it's small.
                        >
                        > -lucia
                        >
                        > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                        >
                        > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
                        > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks
                        > into the
                        > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                        > >
                        > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the
                        > ground
                        > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
                        > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
                        > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
                        > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                        > cycles of
                        > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
                        > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                        > >
                        > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to
                        > turn over
                        > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                        > current
                        > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
                        > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
                        > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                        > reduce the
                        > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                        > Therefore with
                        > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                        > vegetation cut
                        > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow.
                        > Depending
                        > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                        > spread the
                        > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds
                        > and helps
                        > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                        > >
                        > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
                        > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                        > will never
                        > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and
                        > not a
                        > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                        > >
                        > > Good Luck
                        > >
                        > > Jamie
                        > > Mas Franch
                        > >
                        > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...
                        > <mailto:rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > > Dear friends,
                        > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                        > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                        > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                        > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                        > > > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                        > > > helps in sowing.
                        > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                        > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                        > > > in the same place.
                        > > > Raju
                        > > >
                        > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                        > > > <fullcircleherbs@... <mailto:fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>
                        > <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                        > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                        > soil to
                        > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Thanks,
                        > > > > Cyn
                        > > > >
                        > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                        > <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com><fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
                        > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >> Dear friend,
                        > > > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
                        > ecology
                        > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become
                        > porous
                        > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                        > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                        > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                        > > > >> Raju
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
                        > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                        > > > >> >
                        > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                        > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                        > > > > spading
                        > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                        > > > >> >
                        > > > >> > kind regards,
                        > > > >> >
                        > > > >> > jake
                        > > > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
                        > > > >> >
                        > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >> >
                        > > > >> >
                        > > > >>
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > --
                        > <
                        >
                        >
                      • Dieter Brand
                        Pete,   I have successfully used a mixture of rye and vetch in an existing stand of weeds and grass.  In the South of Portugal, we usually get enough rain in
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 28, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Pete,
                           
                          I have successfully used a mixture of rye and vetch in an existing stand of weeds and grass.  In the South of Portugal, we usually get enough rain in November for direct broadcasting of winter annuals even without coating the seeds.  Check the weather forecast: if you can get 3 to 5 consecutive days of rain, you stand good chances that your seeds will germinate before ants, rodents and birds can get to them.  Other seeds that work in an existing grass sod are lupines and faba beans.  But you need to drill the faba beans into the ground or they will be eaten.
                           
                          Dieter

                          --- On Sun, 7/27/08, ml1 <ml1@...> wrote:

                          From: ml1 <ml1@...>
                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage
                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Sunday, July 27, 2008, 5:39 PM






                          I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows
                          to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated
                          and those that did faired poorly. The same seed on tilled soil did fine.
                          Would I have gotten better germination with seedballs?

                          I also planted some amaranth on a paddock I intentionally tilled with
                          pigs. I had good germination on open soil but no germination on areas
                          that still retained some grass.

                          I'd really love to be able to establish annuals on pasture. I'd love to
                          hear from anyone who was been able to do it successfully.

                          Thanks,

                          Pete
                          Kansas, USA

                          lucia@... wrote:
                          >
                          > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                          > amaranth
                          > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                          > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
                          > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                          > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
                          > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
                          > when it's small.
                          >
                          > -lucia
                          >
                          > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                          >
                          > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
                          > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks
                          > into the
                          > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                          > >
                          > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the
                          > ground
                          > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
                          > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
                          > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
                          > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                          > cycles of
                          > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
                          > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                          > >
                          > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to
                          > turn over
                          > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                          > current
                          > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
                          > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
                          > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                          > reduce the
                          > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                          > Therefore with
                          > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                          > vegetation cut
                          > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow.
                          > Depending
                          > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                          > spread the
                          > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds
                          > and helps
                          > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                          > >
                          > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
                          > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                          > will never
                          > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and
                          > not a
                          > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                          > >
                          > > Good Luck
                          > >
                          > > Jamie
                          > > Mas Franch
                          > >
                          > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com
                          > <mailto:rajuktitus% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > Dear friends,
                          > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                          > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                          > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                          > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                          > > > balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                          > > > helps in sowing.
                          > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                          > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                          > > > in the same place.
                          > > > Raju
                          > > >
                          > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                          > > > <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com <mailto:fullcircleh erbs%40gmail. com>
                          > <fullcircleherbs% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                          > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                          > soil to
                          > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Thanks,
                          > > > > Cyn
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                          > <mailto:fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> <fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> ,
                          > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >> Dear friend,
                          > > > >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
                          > ecology
                          > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become
                          > porous
                          > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                          > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                          > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                          > > > >> Raju
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:
                          > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                          > > > >> >
                          > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                          > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                          > > > > spading
                          > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                          > > > >> >
                          > > > >> > kind regards,
                          > > > >> >
                          > > > >> > jake
                          > > > >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com
                          > > > >> >
                          > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > > > >> >
                          > > > >> >
                          > > > >>
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > --
                          > <
                          >
                          >


















                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Steven Smith
                          I attended a field day last night at a friend s farm here in central Iowa. Craig has inter seeded turnips into their corn and soybean fields before canopy to
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 30, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            I attended a field day last night at a friend's farm here in central Iowa. Craig has inter seeded turnips into their corn and soybean fields before canopy to improve the nutritional quality of the stover for winter grazing. Despite the heavy shade of the now six foot tall corn the turnips seem to have germinated well. Craig has been advised that after the corn comes off in late September to early October that the turnips will continue to grow and then be available to the stock he'll turn out in late November.

                            Another attender of the field day has been over seeding his pastures with rape, the annual oil seed, for some years and states that every thing he produces--cattle, lamb, poultry and especially hogs--seem to love it. I think he is drilling it. And Craig cultivated after broadcasting the turnip seed, so good seed to soil contact seems to be the key. We were also told of a farmer in NE Iowa who has been drilling in annual turnips and winter wheat to improve the nutrition of his permanent pastures. Turnips improve the stocking for winter forage, the winter wheat makes a great early spring graze, and he also lets the wheat head out and harvests a portion. I have an organic dairy farmer friend who is feeding wheat as a grain supplement to his fresh cows, so I don't see why it couldn't be drilled into pasture, grazed, and a portion harvested as grain.

                            The key to good germ seems to be knocking back the perennials through close grazing or mowing and good soil to seed contact by either trampling with stock or drilling.

                            Steve Smith
                            Two Friends Farm, Iowa
                            641-751-2851



                            ----- Original Message ----
                            From: ml1 <ml1@...>
                            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2008 11:39:46 AM
                            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: zero tillage


                            I tried overseeding turnip onto pasture and grazing real heavy with cows
                            to knock back the grass to give them a chance. But very few germinated
                            and those that did faired poorly. The same seed on tilled soil did fine.
                            Would I have gotten better germination with seedballs?

                            I also planted some amaranth on a paddock I intentionally tilled with
                            pigs. I had good germination on open soil but no germination on areas
                            that still retained some grass.

                            I'd really love to be able to establish annuals on pasture. I'd love to
                            hear from anyone who was been able to do it successfully.

                            Thanks,

                            Pete
                            Kansas, USA

                            lucia@... wrote:
                            >
                            > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                            > amaranth
                            > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                            > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer it is
                            > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                            > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow seeds
                            > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very competitive
                            > when it's small.
                            >
                            > -lucia
                            >
                            > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                            >
                            > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate on the
                            > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root sinks
                            > into the
                            > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                            > >
                            > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to the
                            > ground
                            > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So, I have
                            > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to weaken the
                            > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for particular
                            > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                            > cycles of
                            > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of micro- and
                            > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                            > >
                            > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish to
                            > turn over
                            > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                            > current
                            > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best moment for
                            > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild herbs and
                            > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                            > reduce the
                            > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                            > Therefore with
                            > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                            > vegetation cut
                            > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to grow.
                            > Depending
                            > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                            > spread the
                            > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from birds
                            > and helps
                            > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                            > >
                            > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer them as
                            > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                            > will never
                            > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration and
                            > not a
                            > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                            > >
                            > > Good Luck
                            > >
                            > > Jamie
                            > > Mas Franch
                            > >
                            > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@gmail. com
                            > <mailto:rajuktitus% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > > Dear friends,
                            > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                            > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the top of
                            > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But it is
                            > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by rats,birds,insects. Seed
                            > > > balls,mulch, sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods which
                            > > > helps in sowing.
                            > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                            > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch loosely it
                            > > > in the same place.
                            > > > Raju
                            > > >
                            > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                            > > > <fullcircleherbs@ gmail.com <mailto:fullcircleh erbs%40gmail. com>
                            > <fullcircleherbs% 40gmail.com> > wrote:
                            > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                            > soil to
                            > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the grass?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Thanks,
                            > > > > Cyn
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
                            > <mailto:fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> <fukuoka_ farming%40yahoog roups.com> ,
                            > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@ ...>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> Dear friend,
                            > > > >> Digging,tilling, plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to the
                            > ecology
                            > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is become
                            > porous
                            > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil chokes
                            > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in side it
                            > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                            > > > >> Raju
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@... > wrote:
                            > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                            > > > >> >
                            > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                            > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a shovel or
                            > > > > spading
                            > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                            > > > >> >
                            > > > >> > kind regards,
                            > > > >> >
                            > > > >> > jake
                            > > > >> > www.grandprairiefoo d.com
                            > > > >> >
                            > > > >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > > > >> >
                            > > > >> >
                            > > > >>
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > --
                            > <
                            >
                            >



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • michael
                            Friends, the degree to which you adhere to (organic) zero tillage depends on how long you ve got. If time is no problem, and if alien pasture grasses are your
                            Message 13 of 15 , Sep 8, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Friends,

                              the degree to which you adhere to (organic) zero tillage depends on
                              how long you've got. If time is no problem, and if alien pasture
                              grasses are your problem, cutting the grasses (to 15cm) and
                              broadcasting your seed will eventually work. If you want it to take
                              less than a decade, you can burn the brown grasses in the early
                              Spring and drill your seed, cutting the grasses to 15cm then until
                              your seedlings get established. You get the carbon of the burning
                              and the inhibition of the mowing.

                              Golden rod can only be gotten rid of by mowing. It inhibits the
                              germination of other plants.

                              Amaranth is very common naturally (here) in burned and mowed fields.
                              If you want the cultivated variety of amaranth, drill seeds of that.
                              It's offspring will hybridize with the wild in the seed bank but the
                              heads will generally be on the large size of the cultivated, at least
                              for years. We get amaranth popping in all kinds of places even
                              though we seeded only once. We eat the leaves green and steamed.
                              The grain goes into bread with a large tithe for the birds in Winter.

                              - Michael

                              On Jul 5, 2008, at 8:40 AM, lucia@... wrote:

                              > this is an interesting thread. my husband would like to grow some
                              > amaranth
                              > in an old haying field that has been uncut for over 40 years. We would
                              > like to do it without tilling the ground. by the end of the summer
                              > it is
                              > mostly goldden rod. I am wondering if anyone here has experience with
                              > amaranth. it sounds lik we could simply keep an area mowed and sow
                              > seeds
                              > into the grass. we've read however that amaranth is not very
                              > competitive
                              > when it's small.
                              >
                              > -lucia
                              >
                              > On Thu, 3 Jul 2008, Jamie Nicol wrote:
                              >
                              > > Dear All, as Raju Titus says, seeds in nature generally germinate
                              > on the
                              > > surface - I´m watching the winter wheat right now as the root
                              > sinks into the
                              > > soil and the first leaf travels up toward the light.
                              > >
                              > > I´ve tried seeding directly into pasture, cutting the pasture to
                              > the ground
                              > > first, with little success, even wrapping the seeds in clay. So,
                              > I have
                              > > thought it necessary to disturb the soil in some way first to
                              > weaken the
                              > > vegetation to allow the weaker (because more developed for
                              > particular
                              > > characteristics) vegetable seeds to get a head start. But all the
                              > cycles of
                              > > life in the soil that are destroyed, the untold billions of
                              > micro- and
                              > > macro-organisms that die as a result seems too heavy a price to pay.
                              > >
                              > > So I´d like to suggest that if you have some grassland you wish
                              > to turn over
                              > > to vegetables then the best way is to ensure that no seeds of the
                              > current
                              > > years plants are allowed to set seed and instead, at the best
                              > moment for
                              > > each plant you wish to seed, you cut back the grasses and wild
                              > herbs and
                              > > seed large amounts of what you wish to grow (seedballing would
                              > reduce the
                              > > amount of seeds you might need but takes extra time to do).
                              > Therefore with
                              > > the no new seeds of the wild plants on the surface, and the
                              > vegetation cut
                              > > back to the ground, the seeds you cast will have a chance to
                              > grow. Depending
                              > > on the size and type of seed you´re using you might be able to
                              > spread the
                              > > cut vegetation over your seeds, this helps protect them from
                              > birds and helps
                              > > retain moisture, accelerating their germination.
                              > >
                              > > These are just some thoughts from my own observations, I offer
                              > them as
                              > > suggestions and not as definitive answers, indeed Natural Farming
                              > will never
                              > > be the same in every place and Fukuoka´s work is an inspiration
                              > and not a
                              > > template, I think we sometimes forget that.
                              > >
                              > > Good Luck
                              > >
                              > > Jamie
                              > > Mas Franch
                              > >
                              > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 7:29 AM, Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > > Dear friends,
                              > > > To understand natural way of farming one should see how seeds
                              > > > germinate in nature. Most of the natural seeds germinate on the
                              > top of
                              > > > the soil .The ecology of untiled ,covered soil is different.But
                              > it is
                              > > > true that naked seeds are generally eaten by
                              > rats,birds,insects. Seed
                              > > > balls,mulch,sowing in line,dibbling are few do nothing methods
                              > which
                              > > > helps in sowing.
                              > > > Green cover of grass is helpful we scattered directly seeds in the
                              > > > cover of grass and after germination we cut back and mulch
                              > loosely it
                              > > > in the same place.
                              > > > Raju
                              > > >
                              > > > On Thu, Jul 3, 2008 at 1:28 AM, mypovertymountain
                              > > > <fullcircleherbs@... <fullcircleherbs%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                              > > > > If you don't ever till then how do you initially break up the
                              > soil to
                              > > > > get th eseeds in? Do you mulch for a time to break down the
                              > grass?
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Thanks,
                              > > > > Cyn
                              > > > >
                              > > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com<fukuoka_farming%
                              > 40yahoogroups.com>,
                              > > > "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> Dear friend,
                              > > > >> Digging,tilling,plowing is unnecessary and very harmful to
                              > the ecology
                              > > > >> of land. If land is covered by green or dry mulch it is
                              > become porous
                              > > > >> by the activity of so many insects,animals. Tilled fine soil
                              > chokes
                              > > > >> porosity of the land is do not allow rain water to go in
                              > side it
                              > > > >> flows and washes top soil (fertility).
                              > > > >> Raju
                              > > > >>
                              > > > >> On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 9:31 PM, JSENT <wegrow4@...> wrote:
                              > > > >> > "Basic thing in natural farming is zero tillage."
                              > > > >> >
                              > > > >> > Greetings, Raju,
                              > > > >> > Would you consider loosely digging/ turning soil with a
                              > shovel or
                              > > > > spading
                              > > > >> > fork to be tilling? Thanks for your response.
                              > > > >> >
                              > > > >> > kind regards,
                              > > > >> >
                              > > > >> > jake
                              > > > >> > www.grandprairiefood.com
                              > > > >> >


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