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Will Architecture Change Agriculture?

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  • Robert Monie
    Architects are now being hired to build carbon-neutral buildings and cities that will produce more energy than they consume. Oil-rich Arabic countries are
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 28, 2008
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      Architects are now being hired to build carbon-neutral buildings and cities that will produce more energy than they consume. Oil-rich Arabic countries are going for this in a big way, hiring top architects from New York and London to do the projects. Some of these new-built cities will not allow automobiles and will minimize the use of oil and other hydrocarbons to the vanishing point. Rem Koolhaus and Sir Norman Foster, superstars of the architectural world, have built their models and are ready to go. Well-placed sheiks with money to spare will finance these projects which feature unpecedented terrestrial solar electric power applications and passive solar energy.

      See just a few examples:

      Google to the following: First positive energy building Masdar

      Rem Koolhaus gateway city to rival Masdar

      Norman Foster Green Desert Utopia

      So what happens when the much-maligned city becomes cleaner than the bucolic countryside? What happens when cities produce more power than they use, recycle all waste, and become "green machines," totally different from their old reputation as breeders of pestilence and plagues? Will a new agriculture emerge to match the ecological standards of the new city? Will food be available from within a radius of 100 miles of the city? Will "rural" and "urban" have to be redefined? Will sustainable farmers have their act together enough to rise to the standards of the new city? Will they be ready for it? Will they impress the architects who design the new cities enough to be included in the planning process?

      The futuristic cities of Bucky Fuller and Paolo Soleri are about ready to unfold in ways that even they didn't consider. Will agriculture catch up? Can we possibly settle for being stuck in either the animal manure or the Liebig-fertilizer eras?

      Bob Monie
      New Orleans, LA
      hoping that flood-ravaged New Orleans too can grow green



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bernhard Heuvel
      Hi Bob, I d wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would be good for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant. But... I believe in
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 30, 2008
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        Hi Bob,

        I'd wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would be good
        for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant.

        But...

        I believe in those architectures only if they are build and running
        properly, and when the balance sheet is filled with data. My disbelieve
        in such projects comes from a visit of Europe's first so called "Solar
        City", which had the same promises.

        Well, to shorten it - the Solar City was disappointing. It was named
        "sustainable city" and such. But no-one really cared where the drinking
        water comes from. No-one cared about the output, the wastes. Where is
        all the waste water running to? Is it recycled? Where does the food
        comes from? Where do people work and how far are the distances to get
        there?

        The materials used for the buildings where cement, concrete, steel and
        glass mainly. There were few patches of decoration which were of wood.
        Of course it was wood from tropic rain forests. Well, most of the power
        came from solar energy. But the heating of the homes was partially done
        by a nearby power plant.


        All in all the Solar City was a clump of concrete. All the concrete and
        steel and glass have so much embedded energy, that the sustainability is
        not reached. The embedded energy is the energy, which was used to build
        or make the object. It is called "emergy". Anyone planning and living
        sustainability has to concern about the emergy. There is little
        literature on that.

        Ok, it was a try by city planners (world famous city planners!), but
        they think in end-pipe solutions.

        To get back to the topic: I'm sure that architecture and careful
        planning can create much better cities. I think the city planner did
        learn in the past and they still do. The architect should skip the
        end-pipe-solution-thinking. Instead he should ask: Where does it come
        from? Where will it go? He has to ask about true (!) recycling, meaning
        that everything that comes from the land, goes back to the land. On the
        same spot where it comes from. And emergy has to be considered. You
        can't use massive amounts of ressources and speak of a positive
        energy-balance. Ask questions like "How much oil is in it?"

        If the cities can change to a better, the better for the countryside.
        Because the countryside is the source for all the energy and food today.
        All this is drawn into the city, leaving a desert outside.

        Regards and much hope for the future!

        Bernhard
      • kvarpio@gmail.com
        Here is one version: http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2008/20080229.jsp?lang=en and http://www.eeropaloheimo.fi/EcoCity.htm Karri ... [Non-text portions of this message
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 31, 2008
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          Here is one version:
          http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2008/20080229.jsp?lang=en
          and
          http://www.eeropaloheimo.fi/EcoCity.htm

          Karri


          2008/3/30, Bernhard Heuvel <bernhardundee@...>:
          >
          > Hi Bob,
          >
          > I'd wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would be good
          > for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant.
          >
          > But...
          >
          > .
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Monie
          Hi Karrie, Yes, the solar age will necessarily be a spin-off of the silicon valley computer age, just as the automobile was a spin off of the carriage +
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 31, 2008
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            Hi Karrie,

            Yes, the solar age will necessarily be a spin-off of the silicon valley computer age, just as the automobile was a spin off of the carriage + mechanical engine. We can take courage in the fact that the Horseless Carriage really was horseless, so the solar city can be hydrocarbon-less. The worst we could do would be to imagine that most of the world will live in grass huts and ride oxen carts or hunt for venison with bows and arrows. A solar economy will not be any more difficult to produce than the computer microchip or the development of Internet has been. It will flow naturally like a technological Nile into the 22nd Century if we encourage the flow. But it will not flow from grass huts, oxcarts or bows and arrows.

            Sustainable growers need solar cities, and solar cities need sustainable growers.
            Now that cities are planning to deal with carbon, sustainable farming theorists should present their carbon-dealing plans. . A good theory is that of Austrialian soil scientist Christine Jones, which I will describe in my next post. (And it does not consist of dumping carbon waste into the ground or firing up large masses of "biochar." It consists of growing plants of the Poaceae family, including pasture grasses and cereals in the same field. It is based on plant litter, root exudates, and microbes).

            Bob Monie
            New Orleans, La
            Zone 8


            kvarpio@... wrote:
            Here is one version:
            http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2008/20080229.jsp?lang=en
            and
            http://www.eeropaloheimo.fi/EcoCity.htm

            Karri

            2008/3/30, Bernhard Heuvel <bernhardundee@...>:
            >
            > Hi Bob,
            >
            > I'd wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would be good
            > for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant.
            >
            > But...
            >
            > .
            >
            >
            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • macropneuma
            Bob Monie wrote ...A good theory is that of Austrialian soil scientist Christine Jones, which I will describe in my next post. ... Good for you Bob, getting
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
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              Bob Monie wrote "...A good theory is that of Austrialian soil
              scientist Christine Jones, which I will describe in my next post. ..."

              Good for you Bob, getting into an Aussie info source. (i don't really
              care that it comes from Australia, just if the evidence is rigorous
              and stands up to rigorous scrutiny. Australia has some good advances too.)
              For yours and all us readers sakes please, oh please, be very wary &
              careful, though.
              EG. of the Yeomans *type of plowing techniques* - very
              creative-carbon-accounting that type of technique.
              Please, if you may, read up alot of critiques about that Yeomans *type
              of plowing techniques* before you commit to words.
              Also, my own late-father did that type of technique on what is now my
              Natural Farm for 10 years - in very-brief it's very dodgy, and dad
              really regretted it dreadfully-muchly (the soil damage), while wanting
              to move toward Fukuoka-inspired Natural Farming.

              For example:
              Christine Jones
              "Building new topsoil"
              pages 2-3:
              "The late P.A. Yeomans, developer of the Keyline system of land
              management,
              recognised that the sustainability of the whole farm was dependent on
              living, vibrant
              topsoil. The formation of new topsoil using Keyline principles, at
              rates not previously
              considered possible, was due to the use of a tillage implement
              designed to increase
              soil oxygen and moisture levels, combined with a rest/recovery form of
              grazing and
              pasture slashing, to prune grass roots and feed soil biota. Yeomans
              was able to
              produce 10 cm of friable black soil within three years, on what was
              previously bare
              weathered red shale on his North Richmond farm (Hill 2002).
              ...
              Hill, S. B. (2002). 'Redesign' for soil, habitat and biodiversity
              conservation: Lessons
              from Ecological Agriculture and Social Ecology'. Proceedings
              'Sustaining Our
              Future: through Healthy Soils, Habitats and Biological Diversity'
              launch of the
              'Healthy Soils Campaign'. Nature Conservation Council of NSW, Sydney,
              April,
              2002."

              Jones C. E. (2002). Stipa Native Grasses "Changing Landscapes" Forum
              Armidale, 3 May 2002.

              -> http://www.amazingcarbon.com/JONES-BuildingNewTopsoil.pdf

              I haven't read Robert Hill's paper cited above yet, but i suspect it,
              for obvious reasons to do with his *mixed (blessing)* role in our
              society - I have read quite a bit of his prior Canadian writing and
              Australian writing, though.

              =========================================================

              Please Bob, (re-)read here Jeff's & Dieter's posts here about these
              very ideas:
              starting at Jeff's "priority one: holistic practices"
              -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/6893

              then Deiter specifically on Yoemans:
              -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/6897
              quoting Deiter:
              "PS: The Yeoman's claims of producing 18 (?) inches of topsoil in
              3 years (which corresponds to the ploughing depth of their subsoiler)
              is a creative use of language worthy of the best spin doctors."

              Unfortunately much of so called sustainable farming in the 'western'
              world is a con - creative accounting - or carbon accounting... etc.
              You know Bob.

              =========================================================

              A good short (2 pages) Australian paper just on clarifying; and on
              critiquing the current 'paradigm', before going into finding real
              solutions, by an apparently critical thinking - hopefully rigorous
              Aussie scientist - is:
              White, Robert 2006 "The sustainability myth [Viable farming and
              sustainable farming are not the same thing.]" Australasian Science
              (2000), v.27, no.4, May 2006: 30-31.

              i have added this file here to the files section for members to access
              and read it, please. see:
              ->
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/files/White%20Robert%20The%20sustainability%20myth.pdf

              Cheers!

              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
              wrote:
              >
              >
              > Hi Karrie,
              >
              > Yes, the solar age will necessarily be a spin-off of the silicon
              valley computer age, just as the automobile was a spin off of the
              carriage + mechanical engine. We can take courage in the fact that the
              Horseless Carriage really was horseless, so the solar city can be
              hydrocarbon-less. The worst we could do would be to imagine that most
              of the world will live in grass huts and ride oxen carts or hunt for
              venison with bows and arrows. A solar economy will not be any more
              difficult to produce than the computer microchip or the development of
              Internet has been. It will flow naturally like a technological Nile
              into the 22nd Century if we encourage the flow. But it will not flow
              from grass huts, oxcarts or bows and arrows.
              >
              > Sustainable growers need solar cities, and solar cities need
              sustainable growers.
              > Now that cities are planning to deal with carbon, sustainable
              farming theorists should present their carbon-dealing plans. . A good
              theory is that of Austrialian soil scientist Christine Jones, which I
              will describe in my next post. (And it does not consist of dumping
              carbon waste into the ground or firing up large masses of "biochar."
              It consists of growing plants of the Poaceae family, including pasture
              grasses and cereals in the same field. It is based on plant litter,
              root exudates, and microbes).
              >
              > Bob Monie
              > New Orleans, La
              > Zone 8
              >
              >
              > kvarpio@... wrote:
              > Here is one version:
              > http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2008/20080229.jsp?lang=en
              > and
              > http://www.eeropaloheimo.fi/EcoCity.htm
              >
              > Karri
              >
              > 2008/3/30, Bernhard Heuvel <bernhardundee@...>:
              > >
              > > Hi Bob,
              > >
              > > I'd wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would
              be good
              > > for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant.
              > >
              > > But...
              > >
              > > .
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Robert Monie
              Hi, This time (in the 2nd article listed below--the soil carbon credits blog) Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is tallking about how to
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi,

                This time (in the 2nd article listed below--the soil carbon credits blog) Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is tallking about how to increase the biologically useful carbon content of the soil that is lost when topsoil is lost--a very common condition today. Rather than speculate about increasing carbon content by adding charcoal wastes or biochar to the soil, she rediscovers the value of robust root growth in the Poaceae (grass and grain) family that was known to ley planter Robert Eliot over a cenury ago at his Clifton Park farm in England. Eliot observed that when Orchard Grass was planted with grains, herbs, and forbs (for example rye, yarrow, stinging nettle, plantain, sheep's sorrel, salad burnet, chicory, and an assortment of clovers) the natural fertility of the field was increased. He called this combination a "ley" and compared the effecft it had on the field to "composting below ground."

                If you look at the massive vetiver-like fibrous root growth shown in the "Bunch Grass" on page 2 of http://managingwholes.com/new-topsoil.htm , it is easy to see where the carbon would come from--the breakdown of roots, as if each root were a little compost heap below the ground. Of course, root growth of this magnitude requires several years of growth. Eliot used to recommend at least 2 to 4 years for his ley to take hold and develop.

                For some reason, Dr. Jones doesn't mention Eliot; perhaps she takes him for granted or she may not even know that he anticipated her conclusions. No matter; both she and he are right about this. The message matters more than the history:

                "The cheapest, most efficient and most beneficial form of organic carbon for soil life is exudation from actively growing roots of plants in the Poaceae family, which includes pasture grasses and cereals. The breakdown of these fibrous roots is also an inportant source of carbon in soils. Organic carbon additions are governed by the volume of plants roots per unit of soil."

                This is from http://soilcarboncredits.blogspot.com/

                The remainer of Dr. Jones' soil carbon credits article brings us up to date on what the latest soil science tells us about continued fertility and what produces it. All this is compatible with what Fukuoka did, though it changes the emphasis to growing specific plants to do specific things to the soil first before planting, rather than growing seeds from whatever weeds are to be found.

                macropneuma <macropneuma@...> wrote:
                Bob Monie wrote "...A good theory is that of Austrialian soil
                scientist Christine Jones, which I will describe in my next post. ..."

                Good for you Bob, getting into an Aussie info source. (i don't really
                care that it comes from Australia, just if the evidence is rigorous
                and stands up to rigorous scrutiny. Australia has some good advances too.)
                For yours and all us readers sakes please, oh please, be very wary &
                careful, though.
                EG. of the Yeomans *type of plowing techniques* - very
                creative-carbon-accounting that type of technique.
                Please, if you may, read up alot of critiques about that Yeomans *type
                of plowing techniques* before you commit to words.
                Also, my own late-father did that type of technique on what is now my
                Natural Farm for 10 years - in very-brief it's very dodgy, and dad
                really regretted it dreadfully-muchly (the soil damage), while wanting
                to move toward Fukuoka-inspired Natural Farming.

                For example:
                Christine Jones
                "Building new topsoil"
                pages 2-3:
                "The late P.A. Yeomans, developer of the Keyline system of land
                management,
                recognised that the sustainability of the whole farm was dependent on
                living, vibrant
                topsoil. The formation of new topsoil using Keyline principles, at
                rates not previously
                considered possible, was due to the use of a tillage implement
                designed to increase
                soil oxygen and moisture levels, combined with a rest/recovery form of
                grazing and
                pasture slashing, to prune grass roots and feed soil biota. Yeomans
                was able to
                produce 10 cm of friable black soil within three years, on what was
                previously bare
                weathered red shale on his North Richmond farm (Hill 2002).
                ...
                Hill, S. B. (2002). 'Redesign' for soil, habitat and biodiversity
                conservation: Lessons
                from Ecological Agriculture and Social Ecology'. Proceedings
                'Sustaining Our
                Future: through Healthy Soils, Habitats and Biological Diversity'
                launch of the
                'Healthy Soils Campaign'. Nature Conservation Council of NSW, Sydney,
                April,
                2002."

                Jones C. E. (2002). Stipa Native Grasses "Changing Landscapes" Forum
                Armidale, 3 May 2002.

                -> http://www.amazingcarbon.com/JONES-BuildingNewTopsoil.pdf

                I haven't read Robert Hill's paper cited above yet, but i suspect it,
                for obvious reasons to do with his *mixed (blessing)* role in our
                society - I have read quite a bit of his prior Canadian writing and
                Australian writing, though.

                =========================================================

                Please Bob, (re-)read here Jeff's & Dieter's posts here about these
                very ideas:
                starting at Jeff's "priority one: holistic practices"
                -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/6893

                then Deiter specifically on Yoemans:
                -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/6897
                quoting Deiter:
                "PS: The Yeoman's claims of producing 18 (?) inches of topsoil in
                3 years (which corresponds to the ploughing depth of their subsoiler)
                is a creative use of language worthy of the best spin doctors."

                Unfortunately much of so called sustainable farming in the 'western'
                world is a con - creative accounting - or carbon accounting... etc.
                You know Bob.

                =========================================================

                A good short (2 pages) Australian paper just on clarifying; and on
                critiquing the current 'paradigm', before going into finding real
                solutions, by an apparently critical thinking - hopefully rigorous
                Aussie scientist - is:
                White, Robert 2006 "The sustainability myth [Viable farming and
                sustainable farming are not the same thing.]" Australasian Science
                (2000), v.27, no.4, May 2006: 30-31.

                i have added this file here to the files section for members to access
                and read it, please. see:
                ->
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/files/White%20Robert%20The%20sustainability%20myth.pdf

                Cheers!

                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
                wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hi Karrie,
                >
                > Yes, the solar age will necessarily be a spin-off of the silicon
                valley computer age, just as the automobile was a spin off of the
                carriage + mechanical engine. We can take courage in the fact that the
                Horseless Carriage really was horseless, so the solar city can be
                hydrocarbon-less. The worst we could do would be to imagine that most
                of the world will live in grass huts and ride oxen carts or hunt for
                venison with bows and arrows. A solar economy will not be any more
                difficult to produce than the computer microchip or the development of
                Internet has been. It will flow naturally like a technological Nile
                into the 22nd Century if we encourage the flow. But it will not flow
                from grass huts, oxcarts or bows and arrows.
                >
                > Sustainable growers need solar cities, and solar cities need
                sustainable growers.
                > Now that cities are planning to deal with carbon, sustainable
                farming theorists should present their carbon-dealing plans. . A good
                theory is that of Austrialian soil scientist Christine Jones, which I
                will describe in my next post. (And it does not consist of dumping
                carbon waste into the ground or firing up large masses of "biochar."
                It consists of growing plants of the Poaceae family, including pasture
                grasses and cereals in the same field. It is based on plant litter,
                root exudates, and microbes).
                >
                > Bob Monie
                > New Orleans, La
                > Zone 8
                >
                >
                > kvarpio@... wrote:
                > Here is one version:
                > http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2008/20080229.jsp?lang=en
                > and
                > http://www.eeropaloheimo.fi/EcoCity.htm
                >
                > Karri
                >
                > 2008/3/30, Bernhard Heuvel <bernhardundee@...>:
                > >
                > > Hi Bob,
                > >
                > > I'd wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would
                be good
                > > for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant.
                > >
                > > But...
                > >
                > > .
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Robert Monie
                Hi, This time Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is tallking about how to increase the biologically useful carbon content of the soil
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi,

                  This time Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is tallking about how to increase the biologically useful carbon content of the soil that is lost when topsoil is lost--a very common condition today. Rather than speculate about increasing carbon content by adding charcoal wastes or biochar to the soil, she rediscovers the value of robust root growth in the Poaceae (grass and grain) family that was known to ley planter Robert Eliot over a cenury ago at his Clifton Park farm in England. Eliot observed that when Orchard Grass (Dactylis glomerata L.) was planted with grains, herbs, and forbs (for example rye, yarrow, stinging nettle, plantain, sheep's sorrel, salad burnet, chicory, and an assortment of clovers) the natural fertility of the field increased from seaon to season. He called this combination a "ley" and compared the effect it had on the field to "composting below ground."

                  If you look at the massive vetiver-like fibrous root growth shown in the "Bunch Grass" on page 2 of http://managingwholes.com/new-topsoil.htm , it is easy to see where the carbon would come from--the breakdown of roots, as if each hairy root were a little compost heap below the ground. Of course, root growth of this magnitude requires several years of growth. Eliot used to recommend at least 2 to 4 years for his ley to take hold and develop.

                  For some reason, Dr. Jones doesn't mention Eliot; perhaps she takes him for granted or she may not even know that he anticipated her conclusions. No matter; both she and he are right about this. The message matters more than the history:

                  "The cheapest, most efficient and most beneficial form of organic carbon for soil life is exudation from actively growing roots of plants in the Poaceae family, which includes pasture grasses and cereals. The breakdown of these fibrous roots is also an important source of carbon in soils. Organic carbon additions are governed by the volume of plants roots per unit of soil."

                  This is from http://soilcarboncredits.blogspot.com/ (or google to
                  Christine Jones Soil and Carbon Credits).

                  The remainer of Dr. Jones' soil carbon credits article brings us up to date on what the latest soil science tells us about continued fertility and what produces it, with information about glomalin and humus carbon content. All this is compatible with what Fukuoka did, though it changes the emphasis to growing specific plants to do specific things to the soil first before planting, rather than growing seeds from whatever "weeds" are to be found.

                  Best wishes,

                  Bob Monie
                  New Orleans, LA

                  macropneuma <macropneuma@...> wrote:
                  Bob Monie wrote "...A good theory is that of Austrialian soil
                  scientist Christine Jones, which I will describe in my next post. ..."

                  Good for you Bob, getting into an Aussie info source. (i don't really
                  care that it comes from Australia, just if the evidence is rigorous
                  and stands up to rigorous scrutiny. Australia has some good advances too.)
                  For yours and all us readers sakes please, oh please, be very wary &
                  careful, though.
                  EG. of the Yeomans *type of plowing techniques* - very
                  creative-carbon-accounting that type of technique.
                  Please, if you may, read up alot of critiques about that Yeomans *type
                  of plowing techniques* before you commit to words.
                  Also, my own late-father did that type of technique on what is now my
                  Natural Farm for 10 years - in very-brief it's very dodgy, and dad
                  really regretted it dreadfully-muchly (the soil damage), while wanting
                  to move toward Fukuoka-inspired Natural Farming.

                  For example:
                  Christine Jones
                  "Building new topsoil"
                  pages 2-3:
                  "The late P.A. Yeomans, developer of the Keyline system of land
                  management,
                  recognised that the sustainability of the whole farm was dependent on
                  living, vibrant
                  topsoil. The formation of new topsoil using Keyline principles, at
                  rates not previously
                  considered possible, was due to the use of a tillage implement
                  designed to increase
                  soil oxygen and moisture levels, combined with a rest/recovery form of
                  grazing and
                  pasture slashing, to prune grass roots and feed soil biota. Yeomans
                  was able to
                  produce 10 cm of friable black soil within three years, on what was
                  previously bare
                  weathered red shale on his North Richmond farm (Hill 2002).
                  ...
                  Hill, S. B. (2002). 'Redesign' for soil, habitat and biodiversity
                  conservation: Lessons
                  from Ecological Agriculture and Social Ecology'. Proceedings
                  'Sustaining Our
                  Future: through Healthy Soils, Habitats and Biological Diversity'
                  launch of the
                  'Healthy Soils Campaign'. Nature Conservation Council of NSW, Sydney,
                  April,
                  2002."

                  Jones C. E. (2002). Stipa Native Grasses "Changing Landscapes" Forum
                  Armidale, 3 May 2002.

                  -> http://www.amazingcarbon.com/JONES-BuildingNewTopsoil.pdf

                  I haven't read Robert Hill's paper cited above yet, but i suspect it,
                  for obvious reasons to do with his *mixed (blessing)* role in our
                  society - I have read quite a bit of his prior Canadian writing and
                  Australian writing, though.

                  =========================================================

                  Please Bob, (re-)read here Jeff's & Dieter's posts here about these
                  very ideas:
                  starting at Jeff's "priority one: holistic practices"
                  -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/6893

                  then Deiter specifically on Yoemans:
                  -> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/6897
                  quoting Deiter:
                  "PS: The Yeoman's claims of producing 18 (?) inches of topsoil in
                  3 years (which corresponds to the ploughing depth of their subsoiler)
                  is a creative use of language worthy of the best spin doctors."

                  Unfortunately much of so called sustainable farming in the 'western'
                  world is a con - creative accounting - or carbon accounting... etc.
                  You know Bob.

                  =========================================================

                  A good short (2 pages) Australian paper just on clarifying; and on
                  critiquing the current 'paradigm', before going into finding real
                  solutions, by an apparently critical thinking - hopefully rigorous
                  Aussie scientist - is:
                  White, Robert 2006 "The sustainability myth [Viable farming and
                  sustainable farming are not the same thing.]" Australasian Science
                  (2000), v.27, no.4, May 2006: 30-31.

                  i have added this file here to the files section for members to access
                  and read it, please. see:
                  ->
                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/files/White%20Robert%20The%20sustainability%20myth.pdf

                  Cheers!

                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Karrie,
                  >
                  > Yes, the solar age will necessarily be a spin-off of the silicon
                  valley computer age, just as the automobile was a spin off of the
                  carriage + mechanical engine. We can take courage in the fact that the
                  Horseless Carriage really was horseless, so the solar city can be
                  hydrocarbon-less. The worst we could do would be to imagine that most
                  of the world will live in grass huts and ride oxen carts or hunt for
                  venison with bows and arrows. A solar economy will not be any more
                  difficult to produce than the computer microchip or the development of
                  Internet has been. It will flow naturally like a technological Nile
                  into the 22nd Century if we encourage the flow. But it will not flow
                  from grass huts, oxcarts or bows and arrows.
                  >
                  > Sustainable growers need solar cities, and solar cities need
                  sustainable growers.
                  > Now that cities are planning to deal with carbon, sustainable
                  farming theorists should present their carbon-dealing plans. . A good
                  theory is that of Austrialian soil scientist Christine Jones, which I
                  will describe in my next post. (And it does not consist of dumping
                  carbon waste into the ground or firing up large masses of "biochar."
                  It consists of growing plants of the Poaceae family, including pasture
                  grasses and cereals in the same field. It is based on plant litter,
                  root exudates, and microbes).
                  >
                  > Bob Monie
                  > New Orleans, La
                  > Zone 8
                  >
                  >
                  > kvarpio@... wrote:
                  > Here is one version:
                  > http://www.vtt.fi/uutta/2008/20080229.jsp?lang=en
                  > and
                  > http://www.eeropaloheimo.fi/EcoCity.htm
                  >
                  > Karri
                  >
                  > 2008/3/30, Bernhard Heuvel <bernhardundee@...>:
                  > >
                  > > Hi Bob,
                  > >
                  > > I'd wish all the promises being held by the architects! It would
                  be good
                  > > for all farmers if the cities would be self-sufficiant.
                  > >
                  > > But...
                  > >
                  > > .
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >






                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Robert Monie
                  Hi, This time Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is talking about how to increase the biologically useful carbon content of the soil that
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 2, 2008
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                    Hi,

                    This time Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is talking about how to increase the biologically useful carbon content of the soil that is lost when topsoil is lost--a very common condition today. Rather than speculate about increasing carbon content by adding charcoal wastes or biochar to the soil, she rediscovers the value of robust root growth in the Poaceae (grass and grain) family that was known to ley planter Robert Elliot over a cenury ago at his Clifton Park farm in England. Elliot observed that when Orchard Grass (Dactylis glomerata L.) was planted with grains, herbs, and forbs (for example rye, yarrow, stinging nettle, plantain, sheep's sorrel, salad burnet, chicory, and an assortment of clovers) the natural fertility of the field increased from seaon to season. He called this combination a "ley" and compared the effect it had on the field to "composting below ground."

                    If you look at the massive vetiver-like fibrous root growth shown in the "Bunch Grass" on page 2 of http://managingwholes.com/new-topsoil.htm , it is easy to see where the carbon would come from--the breakdown of roots, as if each hairy root were a little compost heap below the ground. Of course, root growth of this magnitude requires several years of growth. Eliot used to recommend at least 2 to 4 years for his ley to take hold and develop.

                    For some reason, Dr. Jones doesn't mention Elliot; perhaps she takes him for granted or she may not even know that he anticipated her conclusions. No matter; both she and he are right about this. The message matters more than the history:

                    "The cheapest, most efficient and most beneficial form of organic carbon for soil life is exudation from actively growing roots of plants in the Poaceae family, which includes pasture grasses and cereals. The breakdown of these fibrous roots is also an important source of carbon in soils. Organic carbon additions are governed by the volume of plants roots per unit of soil."

                    This is from http://soilcarboncredits.blogspot.com/ (or google to
                    Christine Jones Soil and Carbon Credits).

                    The remainer of Dr. Jones' soil carbon credits article brings us up to date on what the latest soil science tells us about continued fertility and what produces it, with information about glomalin and humus carbon content. All this is compatible with what Fukuoka did, though it changes the emphasis to growing specific plants to do specific things to the soil first before planting, rather than growing seeds from whatever "weeds" are to be found.

                    Best wishes,

                    Bob Monie
                    New Orleans, LA




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • macropneuma
                    Cool! Thanks for that info (believable). Also, BTW i meant Stuart B. Hill where i wrote Robert Hill in my previous message. Yes, root system studies by
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 2, 2008
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                      Cool! Thanks for that info (believable).
                      Also, BTW i meant Stuart B. Hill where i wrote "Robert Hill" in my previous message.
                      Yes, root system studies by scientists seem to be compelling evidence and often show some answers, scientists should do more of these studies despite how practically hard to do and expensive they are, there are not so many as the endless above surface studies.
                      Cheers!

                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi,
                      >
                      > This time Christine Jones is not talking about Yeomans plough. She is talking about how to increase the biologically useful carbon content of the soil that is lost when topsoil is lost--a very common condition today. Rather than speculate about increasing carbon content by adding charcoal wastes or biochar to the soil, she rediscovers the value of robust root growth in the Poaceae (grass and grain) family that was known to ley planter Robert Elliot over a cenury ago at his Clifton Park farm in England. Elliot observed that when Orchard Grass (Dactylis glomerata L.) was planted with grains, herbs, and forbs (for example rye, yarrow, stinging nettle, plantain, sheep's sorrel, salad burnet, chicory, and an assortment of clovers) the natural fertility of the field increased from seaon to season. He called this combination a "ley" and compared the effect it had on the field to "composting below ground."
                      >
                      > If you look at the massive vetiver-like fibrous root growth shown in the "Bunch Grass" on page 2 of http://managingwholes.com/new-topsoil.htm , it is easy to see where the carbon would come from--the breakdown of roots, as if each hairy root were a little compost heap below the ground. Of course, root growth of this magnitude requires several years of growth. Eliot used to recommend at least 2 to 4 years for his ley to take hold and develop.
                      >
                      > For some reason, Dr. Jones doesn't mention Elliot; perhaps she takes him for granted or she may not even know that he anticipated her conclusions. No matter; both she and he are right about this. The message matters more than the history:
                      >
                      > "The cheapest, most efficient and most beneficial form of organic carbon for soil life is exudation from actively growing roots of plants in the Poaceae family, which includes pasture grasses and cereals. The breakdown of these fibrous roots is also an important source of carbon in soils. Organic carbon additions are governed by the volume of plants roots per unit of soil."
                      >
                      > This is from http://soilcarboncredits.blogspot.com/ (or google to
                      > Christine Jones Soil and Carbon Credits).
                      >
                      > The remainer of Dr. Jones' soil carbon credits article brings us up to date on what the latest soil science tells us about continued fertility and what produces it, with information about glomalin and humus carbon content. All this is compatible with what Fukuoka did, though it changes the emphasis to growing specific plants to do specific things to the soil first before planting, rather than growing seeds from whatever "weeds" are to be found.
                      >
                      > Best wishes,
                      >
                      > Bob Monie
                      > New Orleans, LA
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
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