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Re: Fukuoka's Books

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  • Jeff
    ... stealing somebody s property. ... charge may in some cases be viewed mildly. Selling somebody else s (author, translator or publisher) property is
    Message 1 of 25 , Feb 29, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      > Hi Iris and Ibo,
      >
      > What kind of copyright agreement do you have?
      >
      > You know that theft of intellectual property is no different from
      stealing somebody's property.
      >
      > While the _restricted_ distribution of out of print texts free of
      charge > may in some cases be viewed mildly. Selling somebody
      else's (author, translator or publisher) property is straightforward
      theft.
      >
      besides since Fukuoka is out of print, ......

      Wow, I'm shocked.

      Intellectual property theft is NOTHING like actual theft.
      In fact what we view as intellectual property has been blown way out
      of proportion to the original concept.
      (see "FREE CULTURE" by Lawrence Lessig)

      The important part of any scientific community is the open exchange of
      ideas and the ability of those ideas to be OPENLY tested.

      Originally the copyright was for 17 years.. because of RCA and Disney
      corporations, art and science are being smothered to feed corporate
      coffers.. the current copywrite extends for more than 100 years. this
      is rediculous. THen we have estates getting involved and even further
      in hibiting the transfer of these things.

      The world will never be changed by something that costs money.

      THis is my primary problem with keyline and permaculture...
      What do you mean I can't USE a word. that's stupidity. language is
      fundamental.
    • Dieter Brand
      ... The important part for society as a whole is that new ideas can be made public without the originator (inventor, author, etc.) having to fear that the
      Message 2 of 25 , Mar 1 2:58 AM
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        > The important part of any scientific community is the open exchange of
        > ideas and the ability of those ideas to be OPENLY tested.

        The important part for society as a whole is that new ideas can be
        made public without the originator (inventor, author, etc.) having to
        fear that the fruit of his/her labour will be stolen by third parties for
        their own financial gain. Intellectual property rights governing
        inventions and copyright are a contract between the inventor/author
        and the public with the express purpose that any new idea is made
        public as soon as possible so that others might _use_ it to improve
        on that idea. Without this contract any inventor/author would be forced
        to keep his/her idea secret as long as possible. I don't believe that
        is in the interest of the scientific community you are so concerned
        about.

        The equivalent of copyright for authors or the priority date for inventions
        is the publication date for scientific discoveries. As soon as you can
        present your idea at a scientific meeting or have it published in a
        scientific publication the homogeneity of the scientific community
        will assure that it is you and not somebody else who will sack in the
        Nobel price for it.

        > The world will never be changed by something that costs money.
        > What do you mean I can't USE a word. that's stupidity.
        > language is fundamental.

        You can and do use as many words as you like. If, however, you
        use a photocopier or some other mechanical devise of replication,
        that on your part does not involve a great amount of ingenuity, to
        copy 10,000 words from somebody else's work in the exact some
        order, that can be intellectual property theft. Most people do it anyway,
        and as long as they don't make a great deal of money by selling,
        it is usually not prosecuted.

        For example, if I sit at my computer for 6 months to do the translation
        of a book, do a lot of sweating to produce the best translation possible.
        And if after that, a "smart guy" with a photocopier would say thank you
        (or probably not event that) and sell the work as his own, where would
        I live from during 6 months? Or if I managed to live somehow, would I
        ever want to translate another book? Hardly! The same applies to
        authors, inventors and other creators.

        And yes, intellectual property theft _is_ no different from any other
        theft. If you want a World without money, then this must apply
        for _all_ and not just for creators. Which means the farmer must
        give away his produce for nothing, the scientist must work without
        salary, the seed company must give away its seeds for nothing,
        etc. It is a common feature among many "idealists" that they want
        others to pay for putting their idealistic dreams into practice.

        Having said that, it goes without saying that copyright law, like any
        other form of regulation, is subject to misuse by the "smart guys",
        the corporate ones just like the individual ones. Confucius was correct
        to advice not to put any law into writing, because as soon as you cut
        a law into stone (didn‘t have paper in those days), people will start
        finding loopholes. Unfortunately, Confucianism only works in a
        feudalistic society. But to listen to some of the more extreme ravings
        on assorted mailing lists, some want to cut short that stage to go
        directly to a totalitarian society, which is convenient in that it doesn't
        require any laws whatsoever.

        Dieter Brand
        Portugal


        Jeff <shultonus@...> wrote:
        > Hi Iris and Ibo,
        >
        > What kind of copyright agreement do you have?
        >
        > You know that theft of intellectual property is no different from
        stealing somebody's property.
        >
        > While the _restricted_ distribution of out of print texts free of
        charge > may in some cases be viewed mildly. Selling somebody
        else's (author, translator or publisher) property is straightforward
        theft.
        >
        besides since Fukuoka is out of print, ......

        Wow, I'm shocked.

        Intellectual property theft is NOTHING like actual theft.
        In fact what we view as intellectual property has been blown way out
        of proportion to the original concept.
        (see "FREE CULTURE" by Lawrence Lessig)

        The important part of any scientific community is the open exchange of
        ideas and the ability of those ideas to be OPENLY tested.

        Originally the copyright was for 17 years.. because of RCA and Disney
        corporations, art and science are being smothered to feed corporate
        coffers.. the current copywrite extends for more than 100 years. this
        is rediculous. THen we have estates getting involved and even further
        in hibiting the transfer of these things.

        The world will never be changed by something that costs money.

        THis is my primary problem with keyline and permaculture...
        What do you mean I can't USE a word. that's stupidity. language is
        fundamental.






        ---------------------------------
        Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Anders Skarlind
        Two of Fukuoka s books, One Straw Revolution and The Natural Way of Farming can be downloaded from The Soil and Health Library, on the conditions that apply to
        Message 3 of 25 , Mar 1 3:31 AM
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          Two of Fukuoka's books, One Straw Revolution and The Natural Way of
          Farming can be downloaded from The Soil and Health Library, on the
          conditions that apply to this library. I e you will get, as a loan, a
          personalised copy. You will have to give your full name and email
          address. I recommend this service fully. Click on Agriculture
          Library, then on the book you want to loan, and follow instructions.

          http://www.soilandhealth.org/
        • Dieter Brand
          Anders, I fully agree, this is a good way of making available out of print books. I have been a member for some time and recommend it to all others for finding
          Message 4 of 25 , Mar 1 4:48 AM
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            Anders,

            I fully agree, this is a good way of making available out of print books.
            I have been a member for some time and recommend it to all others
            for finding treasures hard to get by otherwise.

            Dieter


            Anders Skarlind <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:
            Two of Fukuoka's books, One Straw Revolution and The Natural Way of
            Farming can be downloaded from The Soil and Health Library, on the
            conditions that apply to this library. I e you will get, as a loan, a
            personalised copy. You will have to give your full name and email
            address. I recommend this service fully. Click on Agriculture
            Library, then on the book you want to loan, and follow instructions.

            http://www.soilandhealth.org/






            ---------------------------------
            Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • vruiz.jurado
            ... (Sorry I m quite new to the list and I want to reopen this thread but with a subject modification) To start, I totally agree with Jeff. If we want to
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 6, 2008
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              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jeff" <shultonus@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Hi Iris and Ibo,
              > >
              > > What kind of copyright agreement do you have?
              > >
              > > You know that theft of intellectual property is no different from
              > stealing somebody's property.
              > >
              > > While the _restricted_ distribution of out of print texts free of
              > charge > may in some cases be viewed mildly. Selling somebody
              > else's (author, translator or publisher) property is straightforward
              > theft.
              > >
              > besides since Fukuoka is out of print, ......
              >
              > Wow, I'm shocked.
              >
              > Intellectual property theft is NOTHING like actual theft.
              > In fact what we view as intellectual property has been blown way out
              > of proportion to the original concept.
              > (see "FREE CULTURE" by Lawrence Lessig)
              >
              > The important part of any scientific community is the open exchange of
              > ideas and the ability of those ideas to be OPENLY tested.
              >
              > Originally the copyright was for 17 years.. because of RCA and Disney
              > corporations, art and science are being smothered to feed corporate
              > coffers.. the current copywrite extends for more than 100 years. this
              > is rediculous. THen we have estates getting involved and even further
              > in hibiting the transfer of these things.
              >
              > The world will never be changed by something that costs money.
              >
              > THis is my primary problem with keyline and permaculture...
              > What do you mean I can't USE a word. that's stupidity. language is
              > fundamental.
              >

              (Sorry I'm quite new to the list and I want to reopen this thread but
              with a subject modification)

              To start, I totally agree with Jeff.

              If we want to change the world we have to break these fictitious
              fences and frontiers.

              We need to say no to patents, say no to restrictive copyrights. Share
              your seeds and your knowledge with freedom. Use copyleft licenses
              instead in your publications. Say no to a closed/elitist permaculture.
              We need a free/open/libre permaculture and NF.

              Also, we have to let the people to do translations and derived works
              (with the same copyleft permissive licenses) using the Fukuoka books.
              We have to spread the Fukuoka words ...

              I like a lot this quote from Eben Moglen:
              "The great moral question of the twenty-first century is this: if all
              knowing, all culture, all art, all useful information can be
              costlessly given to everyone at the same price that it is given to
              anyone; if everyone can have everything, anywhere, all the time, why
              is it ever moral to exclude anyone?"

              Think about it.

              As an example, in my country I spend some years until I found a very
              poor copy of the One-Straw Revolution. Bad, too bad if we want to
              change something.

              Some links:
              http://freedomdefined.org/Definition
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Culture_movement
              http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyleft

              BR,

              Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado

              PS: Can someone add some more options to this poll:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/surveys?id=10897651
              like "Masanobu Fukuoka and his family with a copyleft license" or "A
              beneficiary named by Masanobu Fukuoka with a copyleft license".
            • laurie (Mother Mastiff)
              An individual DOES have the RIGHT and the FREEDOM to choose to offer his or her OWN intellectual property FREE to others. Share YOUR ideas and information.
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 7, 2008
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                An individual DOES have the RIGHT and the FREEDOM to choose to offer
                his or her OWN intellectual property FREE to others. Share YOUR ideas
                and information.

                What no individual DOES have a right to do is offer someone ELSE'S
                intellectual property except in modestly sized excerpts for purposes
                of education or criticism.

                Well introduced and well chosen excerpts are legal, and given the
                right audience, are enough to send genuinely interested people to find
                a full copy of the original.

                If you haven't developed or researched or at least personally
                re-created pertinent information yourself by actually TRYING the
                principles of no-till farming, then why are you participating here,
                offering someone else's thoughts as if those thoughts came from you?

                If you HAVE been trying these techniques, share your OWN experience
                and provide LINKS to the source documents that inspired you.

                Personal experience is what this list is all about - people sharing
                their hands-on experiences of trying to apply the PRINCIPLES of
                Fukuoka farming to very different soils, climates, and vegetation.

                If you have actually TRIED any of the principles, TELL us about YOUR
                experience. Tell us how it matched up with Fukuoka and how it
                differed, and if you know why, say why, or ask for suggestions.

                If you haven't gotten your hands dirty yet, why should anyone here
                have to waste their time on you?

                laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                Southeastern USA (NC and FL)



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado
                ... (Sorry for my English, maybe I m not explaining the point accurately) If people (like Fukuoka s book owners) want to use restrictive copyrights, they have
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 7, 2008
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                  laurie (Mother Mastiff) escribió:
                  >
                  >
                  > An individual DOES have the RIGHT and the FREEDOM to choose to offer
                  > his or her OWN intellectual property FREE to others. Share YOUR ideas
                  > and information.

                  (Sorry for my English, maybe I'm not explaining the point accurately)

                  If people (like Fukuoka's book owners) want to use restrictive
                  copyrights, they have all the right to do that. Of course.

                  From my point of view, it's totally contradictory with NF philosophy and
                  our goals, but I'll respect this decision.

                  I only want to explain why I think is better to our goals and to the
                  planet to share our knowledge, and why I think to promote an artificial
                  economy of shortage is wrong.

                  I think that we have to create human commons like Wikipedia. If people
                  want to create closed knowledge, it's ok, but I think that
                  open/libre/free knowledge (about NF or other practical work) is better
                  for humanity and for the planet.

                  One more point about the word "free" in English: To share with freedom,
                  is not the same to share free (with no cost). As a sample, see the last
                  Radiohead LP:
                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_Rainbows


                  BR,

                  --
                  Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado

                  http://homes.ourproject.org/~vjrj/blog
                  http://ourproject.org

                  "What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done
                  for others and the world remains and is immortal." [Albert Pike]
                • Dieter Brand
                  Vincente,   Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka’s books from Steve Solomon’s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org?  Steve operates
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 8, 2008
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                    Vincente,

                    Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka�s books from Steve Solomon�s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org?� Steve operates his site like a virtual lending library, which means you get a personalized PDF file with your name on the understanding that you won�t redistribute it for commercial gain.� I don�t know if this is completely in accord with international copyright law, but so far there seem to be no objections.� I think this is a good way of making out of print books available to the public.

                    Personally, I�m mainly interested in Natural Farming and I had hoped that this list would serve as a place to share and discuss our experience, but perhaps that hope was in vain.�

                    To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the truth as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular.� E.g., if a person, who never made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka�s books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has often been discussed but never been answered.� Somebody also needs to point out that to use another person�s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his work is neither legal nor moral.

                    To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other person is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to propagate our own ideology.

                    We also need to maintain a minimum level of mutual respect and civility, which, in my opinion, includes introducing yourself to a group you join and letting the group know who you are, what you do and what interest you have in Natural Farming.� And if we do want to tell others about our ideas, I think it is preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the arguments of others by the PC�s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.

                    If you had been interested in a serious discussion (as you claim), you could have commented on my reply to Jeff, in which I explained the function and the benefits to society of intellectual property rights.� Since you did not, I have to assume that you are primarily interested in spreading an ideology and not in discussions.� Hence, there is no point in repeating my arguments.

                    Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are after), �real socialism�, the sole experiment of doing away with private property known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens of millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty and humiliation.� They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high degree of penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural resources and destroying the environment in a big way.

                    If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural Farming you know that a farmer needs to �own� his land; it needs to be his property.� To rebuild soil that has been depleted by conventional farming can easily take 10 or 20 years of backbreaking labor.� No farmer is going to do that without a degree of assurance that he or she will be able to continue working on the land for the foreseeable future.� The nature romantics from the city who make a day excursion to the country, on the other hand, take it all for granted, mistake the cultured land created by generations of farmers for nature pure, like to trample down the wheat and start wild fires by throwing away cigarette buts or by crowning their Sunday afternoon excursion with a barbecue in the middle of a forest.� Then it�s back to the city and nobody cares about the damage that may have been done. Why should they?� It is not their own property.

                    Intellectual property is no different from other forms of property.� At least in socialism there is the idea of taking away from those who have much to give to those who have little.� By abolishing intellectual property, on the other hand, we take away from those who have little, from all those creators who barely make a living by scrubbing other people�s floors.

                    Lastly, already the Bible mentioned something about �giving� being nobler than �taking�.� Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made it very far.� Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown levels.� And you say that is Natural Farming!?

                    Dieter Brand
                    Portugal





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                    I admire Radiohead for their grand experiment. The fact that it was a long awaited album helped them, also the fact that it was better than some of their
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 8, 2008
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                      I admire Radiohead for their grand experiment. The fact that it was a
                      long awaited album helped them, also the fact that it was better than
                      some of their other offerings. I noticed that the reports of how much
                      people paid and how many people paid varied widely.

                      They offered material THEY owned, and let the people choose. Lovely
                      if you can afford such a gesture.

                      Most people won't pay any more than they must, to acquire anything
                      they want or need.

                      Did Fukuoka have family or heirs? He died very recently. Perhaps his
                      estate is still being sorted out.

                      It would make sense to identify and approach whoever inherited the
                      rights to his books, and ask THEM about offering the books in
                      electronic form, on the basis you admire. If they admired his values
                      and share them, who knows, they might agree.

                      If he had no heirs and left the rights to the publisher, I suspect you
                      would have a more difficult time persuading them of the value of
                      allowing buyers to choose the price.

                      laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                      Southeastern USA (NC and FL)



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • vruiz.jurado
                      ... yes, but also the spending power of people in the world varies widely ;) ... More and more groups are using this model:
                      Message 10 of 25 , Nov 8, 2008
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                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)"
                        <mother@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I admire Radiohead for their grand experiment. The fact that it was a
                        > long awaited album helped them, also the fact that it was better than
                        > some of their other offerings. I noticed that the reports of how much
                        > people paid and how many people paid varied widely.

                        yes, but also the spending power of people in the world varies widely ;)

                        > They offered material THEY owned, and let the people choose. Lovely
                        > if you can afford such a gesture.

                        More and more groups are using this model:
                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamendo
                        is a good form to skip intermediaries and to share their work widely.

                        > Most people won't pay any more than they must, to acquire anything
                        > they want or need.
                        >
                        > Did Fukuoka have family or heirs? He died very recently. Perhaps his
                        > estate is still being sorted out.
                        >
                        > It would make sense to identify and approach whoever inherited the
                        > rights to his books, and ask THEM about offering the books in
                        > electronic form, on the basis you admire. If they admired his values
                        > and share them, who knows, they might agree.
                        >
                        > If he had no heirs and left the rights to the publisher, I suspect you
                        > would have a more difficult time persuading them of the value of
                        > allowing buyers to choose the price.

                        Thanks for the suggestions. This is a topic we have to think about it
                        when publishing our works in other areas (different than music) like
                        NF, Permaculture or ecology in general.

                        Some samples: Graham Bumet has a book (the Permaculture a begginer's
                        guide) with this kind of license:
                        http://www.spiralseed.co.uk/
                        Plants for a future website:
                        http://www.pfaf.org/index.php
                        and some publications like the Spanish "El Ecologista":
                        http://www.ecologistasenaccion.org/spip.php?rubrique124
                        also.

                        We must spread widely our ideas and principles to fight against bad
                        environmental practices.

                        Off course you/they can publish your/their NF works with privative
                        copyrights, but for me this means less people doing seed bombing :) a
                        slower process and we don't have too much time.

                        BR,


                        Vicente
                      • Jean Villafuerte
                        Hooolooo everyone and greetings from Ormoc City, Philippines! I ve been reading threads on Fukuoka Farming and the debate on acquiring, distributing and
                        Message 11 of 25 , Nov 8, 2008
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                          Hooolooo everyone and greetings from Ormoc City, Philippines!

                          I've been reading threads on Fukuoka Farming and the debate on acquiring, distributing and reading the Fukuoka book on natural farming. Although I haven't read the book but the summary of his work in the fukuoka farming web site is enough for us to know what the fukuoka farming method is all about.

                          I believe Fukuoka was not alone in doing natural farming during his lifetime. Only the others did not write down their experiences. Fukuoka did and his supporters made it famous the world over.

                          However, anybody passionate on natural farming must not stop on the fukuoka method. While doing farming yourself, and researching in agriculture websites, you'll know what to do. A lot of our "giving" scientists publish their findings in their own websites. We get ideas from them too.

                          In our small "Ecology Farm" we get ideas from here and there and use our common sense in the application of such ideas. Since this farm is supposed to be a showcase for peasant filipino families, we try our very best to show them how to raise food for their tables and raise extra to sell for cash.

                          Actually, we started with green manuring, composting, then manufacturing the famous fermented juices. But, to understand farming is to understand ecology and Genesis where everything was created for a purpose. Pests are there to be the food for other insects, so why kill them when they have their own predators by nature?

                          There are websites that publish the kind of plants that are hosts to insects that eat other insects that have become pests to our favorite plants.
                          jean
                          www.ammado.com/pfi
                          www.ormocwomen.blogspot.com
                          www.evyouth.blogspot.com
                          www.tcfoc.blogspot.com
                          www.pfi.blogspot.com
                          www.geocities.com/pfft_2000

                          visit my blogs and leave your comments.





                          ________________________________
                          From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:01:24 PM
                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books

                          Vincente,

                          Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka�s books from Steve Solomon�s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org? Steve operates his site like a virtual lending library, which means you get a personalized PDF file with your name on the understanding that you won�t redistribute it for commercial gain. I don�t know if this is completely in accord with international copyright law, but so far there seem to be no objections. I think this is a good way of making out of print books available to the public.

                          Personally, I�m mainly interested in Natural Farming and I had hoped that this list would serve as a place to share and discuss our experience, but perhaps that hope was in vain.

                          To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the truth as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a person, who never made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka�s books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to point out that to use another person�s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his work is neither legal nor moral.

                          To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other person is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to propagate our own ideology.

                          We also need to maintain a minimum level of mutual respect and civility, which, in my opinion, includes introducing yourself to a group you join and letting the group know who you are, what you do and what interest you have in Natural Farming. And if we do want to tell others about our ideas, I think it is preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the arguments of others by the PC�s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.

                          If you had been interested in a serious discussion (as you claim), you could have commented on my reply to Jeff, in which I explained the function and the benefits to society of intellectual property rights. Since you did not, I have to assume that you are primarily interested in spreading an ideology and not in discussions. Hence, there is no point in repeating my arguments.

                          Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are after), �real socialism�, the sole experiment of doing away with private property known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens of millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty and humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high degree of penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural resources and destroying the environment in a big way.

                          If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural Farming you know that a farmer needs to �own� his land; it needs to be his property. To rebuild soil that has been depleted by conventional farming can easily take 10 or 20 years of backbreaking labor. No farmer is going to do that without a degree of assurance that he or she will be able to continue working on the land for the foreseeable future. The nature romantics from the city who make a day excursion to the country, on the other hand, take it all for granted, mistake the cultured land created by generations of farmers for nature pure, like to trample down the wheat and start wild fires by throwing away cigarette buts or by crowning their Sunday afternoon excursion with a barbecue in the middle of a forest. Then it�s back to the city and nobody cares about the damage that may have been done. Why should they? It is not their own property.

                          Intellectual property is no different from other forms of property. At least in socialism there is the idea of taking away from those who have much to give to those who have little. By abolishing intellectual property, on the other hand, we take away from those who have little, from all those creators who barely make a living by scrubbing other people�s floors.

                          Lastly, already the Bible mentioned something about �giving� being nobler than �taking�. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made it very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?

                          Dieter Brand
                          Portugal





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                          Dieter, What an eloquent post! My hat is off to you. You put the issue in a greater framework. I hope everyone got as much out of it as I did! Thank you so
                          Message 12 of 25 , Nov 9, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Dieter,

                            What an eloquent post! My hat is off to you. You put the issue in a
                            greater framework. I hope everyone got as much out of it as I did!
                            Thank you so much.

                            P.S., To the person who cited them as heroes of free intellectual
                            material, did you not read the entire article?

                            The Radiohead album was only "choose your price" for two months, then
                            it was marketed as a higher-than-average priced luxury set, and now at
                            a year old, it appears to be offered as an ordinary CD at the same
                            pricing as any other CD.

                            So the give-away was very short-lived and didn't preclude a hefty
                            profit for the group. Their give-away was more a clever marketing
                            gimmick than a true freebie.

                            If it were a true freebie, the album would ALWAYS be available at any
                            price the buyer wanted.

                            laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                            Southeastern USA (NC and FL)



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • ai3131
                            I have both copies on my flash drive, for my own personal use. Since these books are hard to find, having them available on the library at soilandhealth.org is
                            Message 13 of 25 , Nov 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I have both copies on my flash drive, for my own personal use. Since
                              these books are hard to find, having them available on the library at
                              soilandhealth.org is a great service to the public.

                              Not only that, but why even raise the copyright issue in the first
                              place? Of course I do believe in respecting copyright laws, but I do
                              not recall Fukuoka-sensei ever giving anyone exclusive rights over his
                              method to anyone. (He never said it was "his" method.) His vision was
                              that EVERYONE would practice natural farming. And since natural farming
                              is an ancient method that has been practiced throughout the ages and
                              the world in one way or another, stamping a copyright on it is not
                              feasible.

                              - Arian I.


                              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Anders Skarlind
                              <Anders.Skalman@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Two of Fukuoka's books, One Straw Revolution and The Natural Way of
                              > Farming can be downloaded from The Soil and Health Library, on the
                              > conditions that apply to this library. I e you will get, as a loan, a
                              > personalised copy. You will have to give your full name and email
                              > address. I recommend this service fully. Click on Agriculture
                              > Library, then on the book you want to loan, and follow instructions.
                              >
                              > http://www.soilandhealth.org/
                              >
                            • vruiz.jurado
                              ... Heroes? I was trying to explain the use of Free as in Freedom vs Free as in No Cost. Two more links. The staff of the oldest digital library:
                              Message 14 of 25 , Nov 9, 2008
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                                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "laurie \(Mother Mastiff\)"
                                <mother@...> wrote:
                                > P.S., To the person who cited them as heroes of free intellectual
                                > material, did you not read the entire article?

                                Heroes? I was trying to explain the use of Free as in Freedom vs Free
                                as in No Cost.

                                Two more links. The staff of the oldest digital library:
                                http://www.gutenberg.org/
                                doing their explanation:
                                http://www.gutenberg.org/wiki/Gutenberg:No_Cost_or_Freedom%3F

                                Dieter, sorry, I wasn't defending soviets, freely taking or the
                                abolishing of property. Also I'm not searching for personalized copies
                                of books, but thanks for the link (that I read before in this thread).

                                And Jean, I agree with you when you talk about common sense use and to
                                understand nature.

                                BR,

                                Vicente
                              • Dieter Brand
                                Jean,   You are certainly right in that there are innumerable unsung heroes in the history of agriculture.   Would you be prepared to share the recipe for
                                Message 15 of 25 , Nov 10, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Jean,

                                  You are certainly right in that there are innumerable unsung heroes in the history of agriculture.

                                  Would you be prepared to share the recipe for your fermented juices and how to apply them?

                                  Here in Portugal, tilling and manure is the traditional way of farming, but most farmers use synthetic fertilizers nowadays.

                                  In the beginning, I used some manure from a neighbouring cattle farmer, now I only use what grows on-site; mostly mulching and cover cropping and a bit of composting, but mostly in-place-composting.� Anyways, this is just on a small scale (the area I can irrigate during the summer).� To do farming on a larger scale, I would have to till, no-till is difficult in an arid region.� But lack of rain is not a problem you are likely to have in the Philippines.


                                  Dieter Brand
                                  Portugal



                                  --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Jean Villafuerte <dayjean455@...> wrote:

                                  From: Jean Villafuerte <dayjean455@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 3:45 AM

                                  Hooolooo everyone and greetings from Ormoc City, Philippines!

                                  I've been reading threads on Fukuoka Farming and the debate on acquiring,
                                  distributing and reading the Fukuoka book on natural farming. Although I
                                  haven't read the book but the summary of his work in the fukuoka farming web
                                  site is enough for us to know what the fukuoka farming method is all about.

                                  I believe Fukuoka was not alone in doing natural farming during his lifetime.
                                  Only the others did not write down their experiences. Fukuoka did and his
                                  supporters made it famous the world over.

                                  However, anybody passionate on natural farming must not stop on the fukuoka
                                  method. While doing farming yourself, and researching in agriculture websites,
                                  you'll know what to do. A lot of our "giving" scientists publish
                                  their findings in their own websites. We get ideas from them too.

                                  In our small "Ecology Farm" we get ideas from here and there and use
                                  our common sense in the application of such ideas. Since this farm is supposed
                                  to be a showcase for peasant filipino families, we try our very best to show
                                  them how to raise food for their tables and raise extra to sell for cash.

                                  Actually, we started with green manuring, composting, then manufacturing the
                                  famous fermented juices. But, to understand farming is to understand ecology
                                  and Genesis where everything was created for a purpose. Pests are there to be
                                  the food for other insects, so why kill them when they have their own predators
                                  by nature?

                                  There are websites that publish the kind of plants that are hosts to insects
                                  that eat other insects that have become pests to our favorite plants.
                                  jean
                                  www.ammado.com/pfi
                                  www.ormocwomen.blogspot.com
                                  www.evyouth.blogspot.com
                                  www.tcfoc.blogspot.com
                                  www.pfi.blogspot.com
                                  www.geocities.com/pfft_2000

                                  visit my blogs and leave your comments.





                                  ________________________________
                                  From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:01:24 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books

                                  Vincente,

                                  Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka�s books from Steve
                                  Solomon�s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org? Steve operates his
                                  site like a virtual lending library, which means you get a personalized PDF file
                                  with your name on the understanding that you won�t redistribute it for
                                  commercial gain. I don�t know if this is completely in accord with
                                  international copyright law, but so far there seem to be no objections. I think
                                  this is a good way of making out of print books available to the public.

                                  Personally, I�m mainly interested in Natural Farming and I had hoped that
                                  this list would serve as a place to share and discuss our experience, but
                                  perhaps that hope was in vain.

                                  To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the truth
                                  as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a person, who never
                                  made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka�s
                                  books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has
                                  often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to point out
                                  that to use another person�s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his
                                  work is neither legal nor moral.

                                  To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other person
                                  is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to propagate
                                  our own ideology.

                                  We also need to maintain a minimum level of mutual respect and civility, which,
                                  in my opinion, includes introducing yourself to a group you join and letting the
                                  group know who you are, what you do and what interest you have in Natural
                                  Farming. And if we do want to tell others about our ideas, I think it is
                                  preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the arguments of others
                                  by the PC�s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.

                                  If you had been interested in a serious discussion (as you claim), you could
                                  have commented on my reply to Jeff, in which I explained the function and the
                                  benefits to society of intellectual property rights. Since you did not, I have
                                  to assume that you are primarily interested in spreading an ideology and not in
                                  discussions. Hence, there is no point in repeating my arguments.

                                  Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are after),
                                  �real socialism�, the sole experiment of doing away with private property
                                  known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens of
                                  millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty and
                                  humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high degree of
                                  penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural resources and
                                  destroying the environment in a big way.

                                  If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural Farming
                                  you know that a farmer needs to �own� his land; it needs to be his property.
                                  To rebuild soil that has been depleted by conventional farming can easily take
                                  10 or 20 years of backbreaking labor. No farmer is going to do that without a
                                  degree of assurance that he or she will be able to continue working on the land
                                  for the foreseeable future. The nature romantics from the city who make a day
                                  excursion to the country, on the other hand, take it all for granted, mistake
                                  the cultured land created by generations of farmers for nature pure, like to
                                  trample down the wheat and start wild fires by throwing away cigarette buts or
                                  by crowning their Sunday afternoon excursion with a barbecue in the middle of a
                                  forest. Then it�s back to the city and nobody cares about the damage that may
                                  have been done. Why should they? It is not their own property.

                                  Intellectual property is no different from other forms of property. At least
                                  in socialism there is the idea of taking away from those who have much to give
                                  to those who have little. By abolishing intellectual property, on the other
                                  hand, we take away from those who have little, from all those creators who
                                  barely make a living by scrubbing other people�s floors.

                                  Lastly, already the Bible mentioned something about �giving� being nobler
                                  than �taking�. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made
                                  it very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by
                                  others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown
                                  levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?

                                  Dieter Brand
                                  Portugal





                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                  ------------------------------------

                                  Yahoo! Groups Links








                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Dieter Brand
                                  Laurie,   Thanks for your support.   Regarding the article you mentioned, I didn t read it at all, I only replied to Vincente s post.  I live in a remote
                                  Message 16 of 25 , Nov 10, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Laurie,

                                    Thanks for your support.

                                    Regarding the article you mentioned, I didn't read it at all, I only replied to Vincente's post.� I live in a remote region with much nature but without infrastructure and a very bad Internet connection, which doesn't allow me to follow-up most Internet links.� Also, with advancing age, eyesight and time become less, which makes us concentrate on what is important in life.

                                    Regarding intellectual property rights, many people seem to be under the mistaken impression that it is to restrict information; in fact, the opposite is the case.� Put in a nutshell, a patent, for example, is a contract between an inventor and society, which guaranties the inventor the right to commercially use his invention for 20 years.� In exchange, the inventor has to make public his invention so that others can use it, not commercially, but to improve on the invention, for example.� Without such a contract, the inventor would be forced to hide the invention as long as possible to prevent the fruit of his labor being stolen by others.� In most countries, an invention is made public�18 months after the patent application and usually long before a patent is even granted.� Copyright works a little different, but the purpose is the same.

                                    That, of course, doesn�t mean that there isn�t any abuse of the system, but abuse would be still worse without any rules.

                                    Dieter Brand
                                    Portugal



                                    --- On Sun, 11/9/08, laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...> wrote:

                                    From: laurie (Mother Mastiff) <mother@...>
                                    Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 3:35 PM






                                    Dieter,

                                    What an eloquent post! My hat is off to you. You put the issue in a
                                    greater framework. I hope everyone got as much out of it as I did!
                                    Thank you so much.

                                    P.S., To the person who cited them as heroes of free intellectual
                                    material, did you not read the entire article?

                                    The Radiohead album was only "choose your price" for two months, then
                                    it was marketed as a higher-than- average priced luxury set, and now at
                                    a year old, it appears to be offered as an ordinary CD at the same
                                    pricing as any other CD.

                                    So the give-away was very short-lived and didn't preclude a hefty
                                    profit for the group. Their give-away was more a clever marketing
                                    gimmick than a true freebie.

                                    If it were a true freebie, the album would ALWAYS be available at any
                                    price the buyer wanted.

                                    laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                                    Southeastern USA (NC and FL)


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


















                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jean Villafuerte
                                    Willingly, Dieter. I will soon publish them on my blog, the ormocwomen blog. But the original recipe is not ours, we got them from TACDRUP, I forgot the full
                                    Message 17 of 25 , Nov 10, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Willingly, Dieter. I will soon publish them on my blog, the ormocwomen blog. But the original recipe is not ours, we got them from TACDRUP, I forgot the full name but of course I will mention them in my blog. Sorry, I can't have it here now. I'm in a hurry.

                                      jean
                                      www.ammado.com/pfi
                                      www.ormocwomen.blogspot.com
                                      www.evyouth.blogspot.com
                                      www.tcfoc.blogspot.com
                                      www.pfi.blogspot.com
                                      www.geocities.com/pfft_2000

                                      visit my blogs and leave your comments.





                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Monday, November 10, 2008 5:09:54 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books

                                      Jean,

                                      You are certainly right in that there are innumerable unsung heroes in the history of agriculture.

                                      Would you be prepared to share the recipe for your fermented juices and how to apply them?

                                      Here in Portugal, tilling and manure is the traditional way of farming, but most farmers use synthetic fertilizers nowadays.

                                      In the beginning, I used some manure from a neighbouring cattle farmer, now I only use what grows on-site; mostly mulching and cover cropping and a bit of composting, but mostly in-place-composting. Anyways, this is just on a small scale (the area I can irrigate during the summer). To do farming on a larger scale, I would have to till, no-till is difficult in an arid region. But lack of rain is not a problem you are likely to have in the Philippines.


                                      Dieter Brand
                                      Portugal



                                      --- On Sun, 11/9/08, Jean Villafuerte <dayjean455@...> wrote:

                                      From: Jean Villafuerte <dayjean455@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Sunday, November 9, 2008, 3:45 AM

                                      Hooolooo everyone and greetings from Ormoc City, Philippines!

                                      I've been reading threads on Fukuoka Farming and the debate on acquiring,
                                      distributing and reading the Fukuoka book on natural farming. Although I
                                      haven't read the book but the summary of his work in the fukuoka farming web
                                      site is enough for us to know what the fukuoka farming method is all about.

                                      I believe Fukuoka was not alone in doing natural farming during his lifetime.
                                      Only the others did not write down their experiences. Fukuoka did and his
                                      supporters made it famous the world over.

                                      However, anybody passionate on natural farming must not stop on the fukuoka
                                      method. While doing farming yourself, and researching in agriculture websites,
                                      you'll know what to do. A lot of our "giving" scientists publish
                                      their findings in their own websites. We get ideas from them too.

                                      In our small "Ecology Farm" we get ideas from here and there and use
                                      our common sense in the application of such ideas. Since this farm is supposed
                                      to be a showcase for peasant filipino families, we try our very best to show
                                      them how to raise food for their tables and raise extra to sell for cash.

                                      Actually, we started with green manuring, composting, then manufacturing the
                                      famous fermented juices. But, to understand farming is to understand ecology
                                      and Genesis where everything was created for a purpose. Pests are there to be
                                      the food for other insects, so why kill them when they have their own predators
                                      by nature?

                                      There are websites that publish the kind of plants that are hosts to insects
                                      that eat other insects that have become pests to our favorite plants.
                                      jean
                                      www.ammado.com/pfi
                                      www.ormocwomen.blogspot.com
                                      www.evyouth.blogspot.com
                                      www.tcfoc.blogspot.com
                                      www.pfi.blogspot.com
                                      www.geocities.com/pfft_2000

                                      visit my blogs and leave your comments.





                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
                                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Saturday, November 8, 2008 11:01:24 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books

                                      Vincente,

                                      Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka�s books from Steve
                                      Solomon�s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org? Steve operates his
                                      site like a virtual lending library, which means you get a personalized PDF file
                                      with your name on the understanding that you won�t redistribute it for
                                      commercial gain. I don�t know if this is completely in accord with
                                      international copyright law, but so far there seem to be no objections. I think
                                      this is a good way of making out of print books available to the public.

                                      Personally, I�m mainly interested in Natural Farming and I had hoped that
                                      this list would serve as a place to share and discuss our experience, but
                                      perhaps that hope was in vain.

                                      To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the truth
                                      as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a person, who never
                                      made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka�s
                                      books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has
                                      often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to point out
                                      that to use another person�s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his
                                      work is neither legal nor moral.

                                      To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other person
                                      is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to propagate
                                      our own ideology.

                                      We also need to maintain a minimum level of mutual respect and civility, which,
                                      in my opinion, includes introducing yourself to a group you join and letting the
                                      group know who you are, what you do and what interest you have in Natural
                                      Farming. And if we do want to tell others about our ideas, I think it is
                                      preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the arguments of others
                                      by the PC�s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.

                                      If you had been interested in a serious discussion (as you claim), you could
                                      have commented on my reply to Jeff, in which I explained the function and the
                                      benefits to society of intellectual property rights. Since you did not, I have
                                      to assume that you are primarily interested in spreading an ideology and not in
                                      discussions. Hence, there is no point in repeating my arguments.

                                      Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are after),
                                      �real socialism�, the sole experiment of doing away with private property
                                      known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens of
                                      millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty and
                                      humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high degree of
                                      penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural resources and
                                      destroying the environment in a big way.

                                      If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural Farming
                                      you know that a farmer needs to �own� his land; it needs to be his property.
                                      To rebuild soil that has been depleted by conventional farming can easily take
                                      10 or 20 years of backbreaking labor. No farmer is going to do that without a
                                      degree of assurance that he or she will be able to continue working on the land
                                      for the foreseeable future. The nature romantics from the city who make a day
                                      excursion to the country, on the other hand, take it all for granted, mistake
                                      the cultured land created by generations of farmers for nature pure, like to
                                      trample down the wheat and start wild fires by throwing away cigarette buts or
                                      by crowning their Sunday afternoon excursion with a barbecue in the middle of a
                                      forest. Then it�s back to the city and nobody cares about the damage that may
                                      have been done. Why should they? It is not their own property.

                                      Intellectual property is no different from other forms of property. At least
                                      in socialism there is the idea of taking away from those who have much to give
                                      to those who have little. By abolishing intellectual property, on the other
                                      hand, we take away from those who have little, from all those creators who
                                      barely make a living by scrubbing other people�s floors.

                                      Lastly, already the Bible mentioned something about �giving� being nobler
                                      than �taking�. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made
                                      it very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by
                                      others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown
                                      levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?

                                      Dieter Brand
                                      Portugal





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                                      ------------------------------------

                                      Yahoo! Groups Links






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Steven McCollough
                                      Dieter, I must begin by saying I have enjoyed and profited by your posts in the past and continue to encourage your participation. I have posted infrequently
                                      Message 18 of 25 , Nov 10, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Dieter,

                                        I must begin by saying I have enjoyed and profited by your posts in the
                                        past and continue to encourage your participation. I have posted
                                        infrequently because my contributions have been solely on my experiences
                                        with natural farming which unfortunately are limited in extent and
                                        successes. I must say though your attitude seems more on the order of
                                        list proctor than participant. Also, please take advantage of quoting
                                        certain sections of the previous posts you are referring to. It took me
                                        nearly an hour to piece together who and what you were referring to even
                                        given the subject line similarity.

                                        Please see specific comments below.

                                        Dieter Brand wrote:
                                        > Vincente,
                                        >
                                        > Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka’s books from Steve Solomon’s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org?
                                        >
                                        This is the best single answer to all the previous posts as it addresses
                                        the property rights issue while still leaving those unable to purchase
                                        books an avenue to get knowledge.

                                        > To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the truth as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a person, who never made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka’s books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to point out that to use another person’s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his work is neither legal nor moral.
                                        >
                                        I agree with this totally.
                                        >
                                        > To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other person is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to propagate our own ideology.
                                        >
                                        It seems to me over the years you have "used part of an argument as an
                                        opportunity to propagate our own ideology," more than just about anyone
                                        one the list. This is just so slippery a concept I don't know how you
                                        can differentiate your views and posts from propagating an ideology.
                                        Your views on dry land no till for example.

                                        > I think it is preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the arguments of others by the PC’s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.
                                        >
                                        I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Only by using the whole body of
                                        discussion on an issue is the truth to be found. I find the arguments of
                                        higher authority just as valuable as the personal experience of the
                                        novice. Also, some on this list have more experience than others and
                                        feel this is authority enough for their arguments even when in contrast
                                        with a more prevalent view. I have a tremendous respect for your view,
                                        for example, while always looking for a counterpoint.

                                        > Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are after), “real socialism”, the sole experiment of doing away with private property known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens of millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty and humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high degree of penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural resources and destroying the environment in a big way.
                                        >
                                        The fact that you felt it necessary to defend intellectual property
                                        rights is a diversion of the list precepts in my view, as was your
                                        defense of anti socialism that followed. I, for example, attribute a
                                        different cause to squandering natural resources and destroying the
                                        environment.
                                        >
                                        > If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural Farming you know that a farmer needs to “own” his land;
                                        >
                                        I disagree with this also. While this is the paradigm we suffer with
                                        now, it may be a root problem. You, for example, have let the financial
                                        aspects of making a profitable farm operation affect all your views on
                                        natural farming. Some, if not most, on this list are interested in
                                        blending farming into life - not blend life into a farming.
                                        > Bible mentioned something about “giving” being nobler than “taking”. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made it very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?
                                        >
                                        I must have missed where someone said freely taking what was made by
                                        others was natural farming. Giving is making more headway than you seem
                                        to give credit for. If we were to ask Fukuoka if his words should be
                                        available to all, I think he would say yes. Should we condone copyright
                                        infringement? No, that would be going too far. Should we encourage
                                        reasonable laws concerning copyright as was the main argument of some
                                        here? Yes.

                                        This reply is offered in respect and to further the discussions on the
                                        list. If, Dieter, you wish to win this as an argument, I'm sure you can
                                        with elegance as demonstrated by past eloquence. I would hope instead
                                        you see it as constructive review. Your "ideology" may not be visible to
                                        you, but it is to me. I would like to see more discussion of natural
                                        farming just as you suggested. Unfortunately this is not it whether as
                                        initiator or responder.

                                        Steven McCollough
                                      • Dieter Brand
                                        Steven,   Thanks for your comments and critique.    Whether or not to include quoted messages and how is a matter for debate.  I know one ML with a very
                                        Message 19 of 25 , Nov 11, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Steven,

                                          Thanks for your comments and critique.�

                                          Whether or not to include quoted messages and how is a matter for debate.� I know one ML with a very high quality of discussion that strictly censors quoted text to the effect of cutting it to a bare minimum or excluding it altogether. �Personally, I don�t have any strong views on this.� And even though this list doesn�t seem to have any particular rules, I usually try to formulate my messages as well as possible so that others may read them with ease.� If I was a little careless in this one case, it may have been because I didn�t know if anyone would actually read it since I often don�t get a response to my arguments, or, if reaction there is, it goes off on a tangent.� In that respect your response is encouraging.

                                          Do I act like a �proctor�, or is my aim to win arguments?� Well, I will try to think about this.� But what do you mean by my �ideology�, or ideology of dry-land farming?� You really lost me there.� Living in a region where food crops have been grown for centuries by dry-land farming, I have attempted to adapt Natural Farming to this environment by field work for nearly five years.� I have also tried to research the question in the literature and on the net.� Among other things, I have described my work and the results on this and half a dozen other lists in the hope of generating a debate or of getting some new input.� Where in all of this do you see an ideology?

                                          You are of course right in that we all use �parts of other people�s� speech to present our own views.� To reply to every single statement would generate endless worms of messages that would be completely unreadable.� But I think there is a fundamental difference between picking out one argument of a message in the middle of a thread dating back several months to use it out of context for propagating a �general idea� of free sharing, or whatever, that may or may not be valid and without presenting any arguments (hence �ideology�), on one the hand, and a qualified reply that tries, however imperfectly, to take into consideration the �gist� of what another person is trying to say, on the other hand.� Hence, I do take issue, with your claim that I �try to propagate an ideology more than anyone else on this list�.� If you make such sweeping accusation, the very least you have to do is to give some specific examples.

                                          Steven, this is getting too long and I don�t have time to answer your other points at present.� But perhaps you have misunderstood what I said or misinterpreted my intention.� It may also be that I didn�t express my thoughts as effectively as I would have liked to, or that, being of different cultural background and experience, my way of expressing myself feels a bit alien to you.� Please don�t forget that different varieties of English, using different modes of expression, are spoken around the World.� Hence, we need to treat each other with a degree of tolerance.� If I did criticize some willful or arbitrary posts in the past, it is not because I enjoy criticizing others, but because, for much of the time, the level of debate on this list really is rock bottom (if you think this is only my view, you are wrong).

                                          To finish, just let me say a word about the �gist� of what I�m trying to say (the part you forgot to quote): �I�m mainly interested in Natural farming�, how (or if) it can be practiced in environments different from that in which it was conceived, �and a constructive discussion of the same�.� Natural Farming probably means something different to each one of us.� Personally, I�m not interested in Natural Farming as an ideology or in Fukuoka�s philosophy; even though I have translated some of it to offer it to the group as a basis for discussion (that never happened). �I do subscribe to a number of Japanese groups on Natural Farming and know that there are people who, ideology aside, do develop practical methods for growing food for subsistence or market farming and gardening by what can broadly be described as �natural� means.� In different climates, these methods are of limited use; hence, I had hoped that this list would
                                          serve as a platform to discuss such issues.� Unfortunately I feel, that in all the years I have been subscribed to this list, discussions have rarely gone to the core of the matter, and arguments, if there are, are all too often presented as items of believe that cannot be discussed.

                                          Dieter Brand
                                          Portugal

                                          PS:� I will be off the net for a couple of weeks for �technical� reasons.� But will be back soon for further discussions.

                                          --- On Mon, 11/10/08, Steven McCollough <steb@...> wrote:

                                          From: Steven McCollough <steb@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:13 PM

                                          Dieter,

                                          I must begin by saying I have enjoyed and profited by your posts in the
                                          past and continue to encourage your participation. I have posted
                                          infrequently because my contributions have been solely on my experiences
                                          with natural farming which unfortunately are limited in extent and
                                          successes. I must say though your attitude seems more on the order of
                                          list proctor than participant. Also, please take advantage of quoting
                                          certain sections of the previous posts you are referring to. It took me
                                          nearly an hour to piece together who and what you were referring to even
                                          given the subject line similarity.

                                          Please see specific comments below.

                                          Dieter Brand wrote:
                                          > Vincente,
                                          >
                                          > Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka�s books from Steve
                                          Solomon�s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org?
                                          >
                                          This is the best single answer to all the previous posts as it addresses
                                          the property rights issue while still leaving those unable to purchase
                                          books an avenue to get knowledge.

                                          > To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the
                                          truth as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a person, who
                                          never made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka�s
                                          books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has
                                          often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to point out
                                          that to use another person�s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his
                                          work is neither legal nor moral.
                                          >
                                          I agree with this totally.
                                          >
                                          > To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other
                                          person is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to
                                          propagate our own ideology.
                                          >
                                          It seems to me over the years you have "used part of an argument as an
                                          opportunity to propagate our own ideology," more than just about anyone
                                          one the list. This is just so slippery a concept I don't know how you
                                          can differentiate your views and posts from propagating an ideology.
                                          Your views on dry land no till for example.

                                          > I think it is preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the
                                          arguments of others by the PC�s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.
                                          >
                                          I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Only by using the whole body of
                                          discussion on an issue is the truth to be found. I find the arguments of
                                          higher authority just as valuable as the personal experience of the
                                          novice. Also, some on this list have more experience than others and
                                          feel this is authority enough for their arguments even when in contrast
                                          with a more prevalent view. I have a tremendous respect for your view,
                                          for example, while always looking for a counterpoint.

                                          > Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are
                                          after), �real socialism�, the sole experiment of doing away with private
                                          property known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens
                                          of millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty
                                          and humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high
                                          degree of penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural
                                          resources and destroying the environment in a big way.
                                          >
                                          The fact that you felt it necessary to defend intellectual property
                                          rights is a diversion of the list precepts in my view, as was your
                                          defense of anti socialism that followed. I, for example, attribute a
                                          different cause to squandering natural resources and destroying the
                                          environment.
                                          >
                                          > If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural
                                          Farming you know that a farmer needs to �own� his land;
                                          >
                                          I disagree with this also. While this is the paradigm we suffer with
                                          now, it may be a root problem. You, for example, have let the financial
                                          aspects of making a profitable farm operation affect all your views on
                                          natural farming. Some, if not most, on this list are interested in
                                          blending farming into life - not blend life into a farming.
                                          > Bible mentioned something about �giving� being nobler than
                                          �taking�. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made it
                                          very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by
                                          others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown
                                          levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?
                                          >
                                          I must have missed where someone said freely taking what was made by
                                          others was natural farming. Giving is making more headway than you seem
                                          to give credit for. If we were to ask Fukuoka if his words should be
                                          available to all, I think he would say yes. Should we condone copyright
                                          infringement? No, that would be going too far. Should we encourage
                                          reasonable laws concerning copyright as was the main argument of some
                                          here? Yes.

                                          This reply is offered in respect and to further the discussions on the
                                          list. If, Dieter, you wish to win this as an argument, I'm sure you can
                                          with elegance as demonstrated by past eloquence. I would hope instead
                                          you see it as constructive review. Your "ideology" may not be visible
                                          to
                                          you, but it is to me. I would like to see more discussion of natural
                                          farming just as you suggested. Unfortunately this is not it whether as
                                          initiator or responder.

                                          Steven McCollough

                                          ------------------------------------

                                          Yahoo! Groups Links








                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Steven McCollough
                                          Dieter, Thank you for taking this in the context of improving the discussions on the list. ... I should have said, as much as anyone on the list. By ideology
                                          Message 20 of 25 , Nov 11, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dieter,

                                            Thank you for taking this in the context of improving the discussions on
                                            the list.

                                            Dieter Brand wrote:
                                            > Steven,
                                            >
                                            > Thanks for your comments and critique.
                                            >
                                            > But what do you mean by my “ideology”
                                            > Hence, I do take issue, with your claim that I “try to propagate an ideology more than anyone else on this list”. If you make such sweeping accusation, the very least you have to do is to give some specific examples.
                                            >
                                            I should have said, "as much as anyone on the list." By ideology I mean
                                            those core values and impressions we have built up over the years that
                                            inform our perceptions of the world and natural farming in this case.
                                            From this one post I can point to (and did) the ideologies you are
                                            working under. A protective interest in defending personal property, a
                                            dislike of socialism, land ownership, etc.. These are not, you must
                                            admit, precepts of natural farming and are a distraction to the main
                                            topic. At the very least, they make the discussion expand to the extent
                                            we lose site of the original topic. Since your posts are also lengthy,
                                            these diversions are doubly deviating from the topic.
                                            > it is not because I enjoy criticizing others, but because, for much of the time, the level of debate on this list really is rock bottom (if you think this is only my view, you are wrong).
                                            >
                                            I can agree the discussions fall short of what they could be. Rock
                                            bottom and I would have left long ago. My point is this post of yours is
                                            no better in this respect. I believe we would have been better served if
                                            you would have pointed out the availability of the books on the Journey
                                            to Forever site, its implications for copyright issues and left it at
                                            that. On the other hand, your posts have more meat as a rule than the
                                            average so please don't leave.
                                            >
                                            > To finish, just let me say a word about the “gist” of what I’m trying to say (the part you forgot to quote)
                                            I didn't quote that because it was a sideline issue to your post. While
                                            probably the most important issue it was not your main point. From my
                                            earlier post: "I would like to see more discussion of natural farming
                                            just as you suggested."
                                            > : “I’m mainly interested in Natural farming”, how (or if) it can be practiced in environments different from that in which it was conceived, “and a constructive discussion of the same”. Natural Farming probably means something different to each one of us.
                                            This is a great summary of what we all want. Unfortunately, there is
                                            precious little I can add so I lurk most of the time.
                                            > I do subscribe to a number of Japanese groups on Natural Farming and know that there are people who, ideology aside, do develop practical methods for growing food for subsistence or market farming and gardening by what can broadly be described as “natural” means. In different climates, these methods are of limited use; hence, I had hoped that this list would
                                            > serve as a platform to discuss such issues.
                                            We need a person or persons that can bring this valuable information to
                                            our list, as I remember you have done on occasion.
                                            > Unfortunately I feel, that in all the years I have been subscribed to this list, discussions have rarely gone to the core of the matter, and arguments, if there are, are all too often presented as items of believe that cannot be discussed.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            I have noticed this also, it seems the natural farming concept on the
                                            list is suffering from the same problems of dogma you see in organic
                                            gardening circles. It has come to the point organic growers can't
                                            certify because of an entrenchment of the concepts, at least in America.
                                            You can't have organic chicken that is fed meat, for example, even if
                                            the feed is organic and meat is part of their natural diet. You have
                                            argued a need to till in semi arid farming and have taken flak for
                                            breaking Fukuoka's four principles, while receiving precious little help
                                            from the list on how you might have overlooked something. Best of luck
                                            in your natural farming and thank you for informative posts.

                                            With respect

                                            Steve McCollough
                                            > From: Steven McCollough
                                            > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                            > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:13 PM
                                            >
                                            > Dieter,
                                            >
                                            > I must begin by saying I have enjoyed and profited by your posts in the
                                            > past and continue to encourage your participation. I have posted
                                            > infrequently because my contributions have been solely on my experiences
                                            > with natural farming which unfortunately are limited in extent and
                                            > successes. I must say though your attitude seems more on the order of
                                            > list proctor than participant. Also, please take advantage of quoting
                                            > certain sections of the previous posts you are referring to. It took me
                                            > nearly an hour to piece together who and what you were referring to even
                                            > given the subject line similarity.
                                            >
                                            > Please see specific comments below.
                                            >
                                            > Dieter Brand wrote:
                                            >
                                            >> Vincente,
                                            >>
                                            >> Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka’s books from Steve
                                            >>
                                            > Solomon’s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org?
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > This is the best single answer to all the previous posts as it addresses
                                            > the property rights issue while still leaving those unable to purchase
                                            > books an avenue to get knowledge.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell the
                                            >>
                                            > truth as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a person, who
                                            > never made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell Fukuoka’s
                                            > books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which has
                                            > often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to point out
                                            > that to use another person’s labor to make a commercial profit by selling his
                                            > work is neither legal nor moral.
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > I agree with this totally.
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >> To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the other
                                            >>
                                            > person is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity to
                                            > propagate our own ideology.
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > It seems to me over the years you have "used part of an argument as an
                                            > opportunity to propagate our own ideology," more than just about anyone
                                            > one the list. This is just so slippery a concept I don't know how you
                                            > can differentiate your views and posts from propagating an ideology.
                                            > Your views on dry land no till for example.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> I think it is preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with the
                                            >>
                                            > arguments of others by the PC’s copy and paste commands or by Internet links.
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Only by using the whole body of
                                            > discussion on an issue is the truth to be found. I find the arguments of
                                            > higher authority just as valuable as the personal experience of the
                                            > novice. Also, some on this list have more experience than others and
                                            > feel this is authority enough for their arguments even when in contrast
                                            > with a more prevalent view. I have a tremendous respect for your view,
                                            > for example, while always looking for a counterpoint.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >> Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are
                                            >>
                                            > after), “real socialism”, the sole experiment of doing away with private
                                            > property known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions after tens
                                            > of millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme poverty
                                            > and humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high
                                            > degree of penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural
                                            > resources and destroying the environment in a big way.
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > The fact that you felt it necessary to defend intellectual property
                                            > rights is a diversion of the list precepts in my view, as was your
                                            > defense of anti socialism that followed. I, for example, attribute a
                                            > different cause to squandering natural resources and destroying the
                                            > environment.
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >> If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural
                                            >>
                                            > Farming you know that a farmer needs to “own” his land;
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > I disagree with this also. While this is the paradigm we suffer with
                                            > now, it may be a root problem. You, for example, have let the financial
                                            > aspects of making a profitable farm operation affect all your views on
                                            > natural farming. Some, if not most, on this list are interested in
                                            > blending farming into life - not blend life into a farming.
                                            >
                                            >> Bible mentioned something about “giving” being nobler than
                                            >>
                                            > “taking”. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made it
                                            > very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by
                                            > others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to unknown
                                            > levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?
                                            >
                                            >>
                                            >>
                                            > I must have missed where someone said freely taking what was made by
                                            > others was natural farming. Giving is making more headway than you seem
                                            > to give credit for. If we were to ask Fukuoka if his words should be
                                            > available to all, I think he would say yes. Should we condone copyright
                                            > infringement? No, that would be going too far. Should we encourage
                                            > reasonable laws concerning copyright as was the main argument of some
                                            > here? Yes.
                                            >
                                            > This reply is offered in respect and to further the discussions on the
                                            > list. If, Dieter, you wish to win this as an argument, I'm sure you can
                                            > with elegance as demonstrated by past eloquence. I would hope instead
                                            > you see it as constructive review. Your "ideology" may not be visible
                                            > to
                                            > you, but it is to me. I would like to see more discussion of natural
                                            > farming just as you suggested. Unfortunately this is not it whether as
                                            > initiator or responder.
                                            >
                                            > Steven McCollough
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > No virus found in this incoming message.
                                            > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
                                            > Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.0/1779 - Release Date: 11/10/2008 7:53 AM
                                            >
                                            >
                                          • laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                                            Steven, It was my impression that both Dieter and I were objecting to someone coming to the group and posting nothing BUT other s information, including an
                                            Message 21 of 25 , Nov 11, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Steven,

                                              It was my impression that both Dieter and I were objecting to someone
                                              coming to the group and posting nothing BUT other's information,
                                              including an expressed desire to violate copyright laws.

                                              Let's talk about farming again, OK?

                                              laurie (Mother Mastiff)
                                              Southeastern USA (NC and FL)



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado
                                              ... Copyleft is based on copyright law and is totally legal. Always is the decision of authors. If I share my works (something that I always do), I don t
                                              Message 22 of 25 , Nov 11, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                laurie (Mother Mastiff) escribió:
                                                > including an expressed desire to violate copyright laws.

                                                Copyleft is based on copyright law and is totally legal. Always is the
                                                decision of authors. If I share my works (something that I always do), I
                                                don't violate nothing.

                                                Good collection of misunderstandings.

                                                > Let's talk about farming again, OK?

                                                yes, please.
                                                --
                                                Vicente J. Ruiz Jurado

                                                http://homes.ourproject.org/~vjrj/blog
                                                http://ourproject.org

                                                "Recently, someone asked me if I believed in astrology. He seemed
                                                somewhat puzzled when I explained that the reason I don't is that I'm a
                                                Gemini." [Raymond Smullyan]
                                              • Dieter Brand
                                                Steven,   What do you mean by ideology?  The occasional joke aside, I m prepared to defend every single word I said on this and any other list by argument,
                                                Message 23 of 25 , Nov 11, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Steven,

                                                  What do you mean by ideology?� The occasional joke aside, I'm prepared to defend every single word I said on this and any other list by argument, and if you or anyone�can show�my arguments to be erroneous, I'm prepared to say thank you, I was wrong, I see what you mean.� Is that ideology?

                                                  >�From this one post I can point to (and did) the ideologies you are
                                                  > working under. A protective interest in defending personal property, a
                                                  > dislike of socialism, land ownership, etc..

                                                  These are your assumptions.� I'm not prepared to publish my personal curriculum vitae on the list (nobody should), but from the time I can remember, my heart has always beaten "on the left", and I don't mean "left" in the US sense of progressive democrat, but in the European sense.

                                                  But I have never been prepared to confine my thinking to little boxes, and when I see somebody talking nonsense about the virtues of collective ownership and the like, I don't see why I should not call a spade a spade.

                                                  >�These are not, you must�admit, precepts of natural farming and
                                                  > are a distraction to the main�topic.

                                                  Remember, the distraction was not from me, my initial argument went unanswered, and the post I replied to was dug out by someone with his own agenda months later.� You really try hard to find fault with me personally.� I think we should not discuss each other's personality in public on this list.� If there is something that bothers you, you are welcome to contact me off-list.

                                                  > while receiving precious little help from the list on how you
                                                  > might have overlooked something.

                                                  Here we go again!� The assumption (or ideology) that a method has absolute validity, in any place and always, even if that has not been demonstrated and even though you haven't told us if you have ever carried out that method anywhere.�And if somebody reports facts that�do not match the theory, well then he�must have "overlooked" something and we must fiddle around with�the facts�until they�correspond to the theory.� I take my hat off to Fukuoka the _farmer_, who after 30 years of practice was able to say: "the proof is growing right in front of your eyes".� I don't have the same respect for people who, having read a book, claim that they know it all and that farmers who don't see it their way are really stup*d .� And please, don't start with talk about "methodless methods" or other such meaningless meaning as we have heard on this list before.

                                                  Dieter Brand
                                                  Portugal

                                                  PS: I'm�still not�through with�the reflection you�have�told me to do.� But I may have a first hunch about��wanting to win an argument".��This is�really only a hunch, so don't take it too seriously: I think the competitive instinct is universal, we wouldn't be here otherwise.� Further, to present a clear well reasoned argument�is a bit like putting on a clean shirt and trousers to present a positive image in public so as to maintain our self-esteem and to show respect to others.� Nobody wants to be with a stinking old jerk.� I think a lot depends on what we try to do.�Do we try to help others, provide information, provide our ideas about how we see things and promote the discussion on Natural Farming?� Or do we only reply to criticize and find fault with somebody?� I think, with a few exceptions, there is a lot of goodwill and desire to help others on this list.�It is only the framework of discussions that makes things go awry at
                                                  times.



                                                  --- On Tue, 11/11/08, Steven McCollough <steb@...> wrote:

                                                  From: Steven McCollough <steb@...>
                                                  Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                                  To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Date: Tuesday, November 11, 2008, 4:25 PM

                                                  Dieter,

                                                  Thank you for taking this in the context of improving the discussions on
                                                  the list.

                                                  Dieter Brand wrote:
                                                  > Steven,
                                                  >
                                                  > Thanks for your comments and critique.
                                                  >
                                                  > But what do you mean by my �ideology�
                                                  > Hence, I do take issue, with your claim that I �try to propagate an
                                                  ideology more than anyone else on this list�. If you make such sweeping
                                                  accusation, the very least you have to do is to give some specific examples.
                                                  >
                                                  I should have said, "as much as anyone on the list." By ideology I
                                                  mean
                                                  those core values and impressions we have built up over the years that
                                                  inform our perceptions of the world and natural farming in this case.
                                                  From this one post I can point to (and did) the ideologies you are
                                                  working under. A protective interest in defending personal property, a
                                                  dislike of socialism, land ownership, etc.. These are not, you must
                                                  admit, precepts of natural farming and are a distraction to the main
                                                  topic. At the very least, they make the discussion expand to the extent
                                                  we lose site of the original topic. Since your posts are also lengthy,
                                                  these diversions are doubly deviating from the topic.
                                                  > it is not because I enjoy criticizing others, but because, for much of the
                                                  time, the level of debate on this list really is rock bottom (if you think this
                                                  is only my view, you are wrong).
                                                  >
                                                  I can agree the discussions fall short of what they could be. Rock
                                                  bottom and I would have left long ago. My point is this post of yours is
                                                  no better in this respect. I believe we would have been better served if
                                                  you would have pointed out the availability of the books on the Journey
                                                  to Forever site, its implications for copyright issues and left it at
                                                  that. On the other hand, your posts have more meat as a rule than the
                                                  average so please don't leave.
                                                  >
                                                  > To finish, just let me say a word about the �gist� of what I�m
                                                  trying to say (the part you forgot to quote)
                                                  I didn't quote that because it was a sideline issue to your post. While
                                                  probably the most important issue it was not your main point. From my
                                                  earlier post: "I would like to see more discussion of natural farming
                                                  just as you suggested."
                                                  > : �I�m mainly interested in Natural farming�, how (or if) it can be
                                                  practiced in environments different from that in which it was conceived, �and
                                                  a constructive discussion of the same�. Natural Farming probably means
                                                  something different to each one of us.
                                                  This is a great summary of what we all want. Unfortunately, there is
                                                  precious little I can add so I lurk most of the time.
                                                  > I do subscribe to a number of Japanese groups on Natural Farming and know
                                                  that there are people who, ideology aside, do develop practical methods for
                                                  growing food for subsistence or market farming and gardening by what can broadly
                                                  be described as �natural� means. In different climates, these methods are
                                                  of limited use; hence, I had hoped that this list would
                                                  > serve as a platform to discuss such issues.
                                                  We need a person or persons that can bring this valuable information to
                                                  our list, as I remember you have done on occasion.
                                                  > Unfortunately I feel, that in all the years I have been subscribed to this
                                                  list, discussions have rarely gone to the core of the matter, and arguments, if
                                                  there are, are all too often presented as items of believe that cannot be
                                                  discussed.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  I have noticed this also, it seems the natural farming concept on the
                                                  list is suffering from the same problems of dogma you see in organic
                                                  gardening circles. It has come to the point organic growers can't
                                                  certify because of an entrenchment of the concepts, at least in America.
                                                  You can't have organic chicken that is fed meat, for example, even if
                                                  the feed is organic and meat is part of their natural diet. You have
                                                  argued a need to till in semi arid farming and have taken flak for
                                                  breaking Fukuoka's four principles, while receiving precious little help
                                                  from the list on how you might have overlooked something. Best of luck
                                                  in your natural farming and thank you for informative posts.

                                                  With respect

                                                  Steve McCollough
                                                  > From: Steven McCollough
                                                  > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:Copyleft and Fukuoka's books
                                                  > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                                  > Date: Monday, November 10, 2008, 4:13 PM
                                                  >
                                                  > Dieter,
                                                  >
                                                  > I must begin by saying I have enjoyed and profited by your posts in the
                                                  > past and continue to encourage your participation. I have posted
                                                  > infrequently because my contributions have been solely on my experiences
                                                  > with natural farming which unfortunately are limited in extent and
                                                  > successes. I must say though your attitude seems more on the order of
                                                  > list proctor than participant. Also, please take advantage of quoting
                                                  > certain sections of the previous posts you are referring to. It took me
                                                  > nearly an hour to piece together who and what you were referring to even
                                                  > given the subject line similarity.
                                                  >
                                                  > Please see specific comments below.
                                                  >
                                                  > Dieter Brand wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> Vincente,
                                                  >>
                                                  >> Did you know that you can download two of Fukuoka�s books from Steve
                                                  >>
                                                  > Solomon�s Soil and Health library at: soilandhealth.org?
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > This is the best single answer to all the previous posts as it addresses
                                                  > the property rights issue while still leaving those unable to purchase
                                                  > books an avenue to get knowledge.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >> To have a meaningful discussion we need to have the courage to tell
                                                  the
                                                  >>
                                                  > truth as we know it even if it is not trendy or popular. E.g., if a
                                                  person, who
                                                  > never made any contribution to this group, suddenly turns up to sell
                                                  Fukuoka�s
                                                  > books, then we need to be able to ask a question about copyright, which
                                                  has
                                                  > often been discussed but never been answered. Somebody also needs to
                                                  point out
                                                  > that to use another person�s labor to make a commercial profit by
                                                  selling his
                                                  > work is neither legal nor moral.
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > I agree with this totally.
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >> To have a meaningful discussion we also need to reply to what the
                                                  other
                                                  >>
                                                  > person is trying to say and not use part of an argument as an opportunity
                                                  to
                                                  > propagate our own ideology.
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > It seems to me over the years you have "used part of an argument as
                                                  an
                                                  > opportunity to propagate our own ideology," more than just about
                                                  anyone
                                                  > one the list. This is just so slippery a concept I don't know how you
                                                  > can differentiate your views and posts from propagating an ideology.
                                                  > Your views on dry land no till for example.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >> I think it is preferable to do so in our own words and not argue with
                                                  the
                                                  >>
                                                  > arguments of others by the PC�s copy and paste commands or by Internet
                                                  links.
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > I strongly disagree with this sentiment. Only by using the whole body of
                                                  > discussion on an issue is the truth to be found. I find the arguments of
                                                  > higher authority just as valuable as the personal experience of the
                                                  > novice. Also, some on this list have more experience than others and
                                                  > feel this is authority enough for their arguments even when in contrast
                                                  > with a more prevalent view. I have a tremendous respect for your view,
                                                  > for example, while always looking for a counterpoint.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >> Regarding a World without private property (if that is what you are
                                                  >>
                                                  > after), �real socialism�, the sole experiment of doing away with
                                                  private
                                                  > property known to mankind, has collapsed under its own contradictions
                                                  after tens
                                                  > of millions of death and hundreds of millions were reduced to extreme
                                                  poverty
                                                  > and humiliation. They even managed the incredible feat of creating a high
                                                  > degree of penury for the people while at the same time squandering natural
                                                  > resources and destroying the environment in a big way.
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > The fact that you felt it necessary to defend intellectual property
                                                  > rights is a diversion of the list precepts in my view, as was your
                                                  > defense of anti socialism that followed. I, for example, attribute a
                                                  > different cause to squandering natural resources and destroying the
                                                  > environment.
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >> If you have any experience with farming and in particular with Natural
                                                  >>
                                                  > Farming you know that a farmer needs to �own� his land;
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > I disagree with this also. While this is the paradigm we suffer with
                                                  > now, it may be a root problem. You, for example, have let the financial
                                                  > aspects of making a profitable farm operation affect all your views on
                                                  > natural farming. Some, if not most, on this list are interested in
                                                  > blending farming into life - not blend life into a farming.
                                                  >
                                                  >> Bible mentioned something about �giving� being nobler than
                                                  >>
                                                  > �taking�. Alas, human avarice being what it is, that idea never made
                                                  it
                                                  > very far. Yet by making an ideology out of freely taking what was made by
                                                  > others to serve our personal gain seems to propel human perversion to
                                                  unknown
                                                  > levels. And you say that is Natural Farming!?
                                                  >
                                                  >>
                                                  >>
                                                  > I must have missed where someone said freely taking what was made by
                                                  > others was natural farming. Giving is making more headway than you seem
                                                  > to give credit for. If we were to ask Fukuoka if his words should be
                                                  > available to all, I think he would say yes. Should we condone copyright
                                                  > infringement? No, that would be going too far. Should we encourage
                                                  > reasonable laws concerning copyright as was the main argument of some
                                                  > here? Yes.
                                                  >
                                                  > This reply is offered in respect and to further the discussions on the
                                                  > list. If, Dieter, you wish to win this as an argument, I'm sure you
                                                  can
                                                  > with elegance as demonstrated by past eloquence. I would hope instead
                                                  > you see it as constructive review. Your "ideology" may not be
                                                  visible
                                                  > to
                                                  > you, but it is to me. I would like to see more discussion of natural
                                                  > farming just as you suggested. Unfortunately this is not it whether as
                                                  > initiator or responder.
                                                  >
                                                  > Steven McCollough
                                                  >
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