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Re: Chickens???

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  • robin
    dear linda, and all friends; my grandfather for many years operated what you might remember was a true to type traditional old mcdonalds type farm here in
    Message 1 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
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      dear linda, and all friends;

      my grandfather for many years operated what you might remember was a
      true to type traditional "old mcdonalds' type farm here in the
      mountains of southwestern virginia where he grew tobacco and had cows,
      horses, and poultry, as well as a family vegetable garden.

      he had a diversity of fowl, guineas as well as turkeys, ducks, and
      chickens.

      i remember fondly yet distantly (i was fairly small) the barnyard scene;
      turkeys strutting around as the "upperclass" in the pecking order by
      sheer ferocity,
      chasing and menacing all who would be careless enough to be caught in
      their way.
      chickens worriedly picking their paths through the large dirt yard,
      avoiding the turkeys whenever possible, dividing their time between
      the coop and the feeding areas, surrounding grandpa or grandma
      whenever they came out to throw corn and feed out to them, pecking up
      as much as they could before the more stately king turkey and his
      entourage arrived to try to dominate the situation.
      ducks would stay to the outskirts/banks of the yard near the pond.
      the guineas' strength is in numbers, and their racket and speed. they
      are wilder,slender creatures, and prefer outlying areas. when they do
      come through the yard to there are a lot of them, and they are fast.
      they tend to disappear more quickly into the woods over time, so it
      would seem that you would need to keep a large flock to balance
      losses. the more guineas you have in the flocks the safer they feel to
      come and get fed. fortunately, they tend to multiply well and are,
      from what i remember, not as expensive as chickens in the initial
      investment.i'm not sure or i've forgotten whether there is a "danger"
      of guineas breeding out to wild birds, you might want to check that.

      one thing also that i remember...the sight of my grandfather wringing
      the chickens' necks and the whole ritual that that involved. that made
      a darker aspect to the barnyard psychology. the chickens were
      terrorized even as they were getting fed, and it made for a tenser
      atmosphere for all involved. it made for me an aura of cruelty about
      my grandfather (though he endeavored to maintain
      a sense of humor about it) and for the whole business, even though at
      the same time, i realize now, that these birds, and all of the animals
      on the farm, enjoyed a much greater freedom and natural, normal
      quality of life than most do today.

      i believe that, for fukuoka-san, farming is mainly working on one's
      own mindset, to allow compassion and cooperation to be within one's
      association with other creatures, not so much competition or
      controlling, or victimization of these useful fellows.
      they take a lot of work if you are raising them to eat, you have to
      over-protect them from casualties diligently, yet it is you who,
      ironically, inflict the ultimate casualty upon them, and that is a
      fear-inducing situation. that did and would wear on me, for one. meat
      farms indeniably promote a concious or unconcious bad feeling among
      the participants.this gives rise to defensiveness.

      i do not object to eating meat if one has nothing else to eat. but
      wasn't it ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed.
      shawn is right when he said modern meat-farming is all about money
      these days, and i think much is being tolerated in many people's own
      souls in so many of the "modern" systems going on today. you don't
      want to teach yourself to be cruel for the money or for the rich diet
      it may bring. you want to learn and experience the natural order of
      life, with all it's great teachers and creatures, and you don't want
      to become an impediment or controller or apply too many methods to
      nature or it will not be true nature.
      therefore, growing plant crops for yourself and to share with other
      members of nature makes everybody healthier and sounder and happier in
      body and mind. that's been proven. it's also been proven that
      meat-farming contributes to confusion about food and what the natural
      food of plant-eating animals are, witness madcow,etc.

      even if one concedes that humans are suited for a small amount of
      meat in their diets- in the processing of many foods, meat or not,
      things that are not suitable are inadverdently, or in some cases,
      purposely included in the "food" to either pad it out, or to make it
      look or taste more attractive, appealing to our addiction or craving
      triggers.

      as far as triggering cravings, the old people in our family called
      this phenomenon "getting the taste of meat in your mouth" in referring
      to a dog who got the bad habit of killing chickens or "sucking eggs".
      the same thing can happen to people, in my opinion. one more thing.
      eating too much meat contributes to world hunger and global warming.
      so i'm not saying no meat, i'm saying less meat. less meat, less heat.

      let's see what kind of a different argument i get from you all, now.
      i like debating, sometimes. try not to come down on me like a ton of
      bricks!
      i hope that gave you more of a sense about guineas, linda***robin***





      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Shewan"
      <linda_shewan@...> wrote:
      >
      > I don't know if you have them in your neck of the woods but guinea
      fowl are
      > meant to be excellent for keeping snakes away. One example is
      > http://www.guineafarm.com/guineas.html . And if you google "guinea fowl
      > snakes" you will find many more I am sure. They are VERY noisy I
      understand
      > so might not be best under the bedroom window. They free range
      completely
      > and will keep themselves out of danger if you have a good tree they can
      > roost in.
      >
      >
      >
      > They will also certainly let you know if a fox is in the area, or
      anything
      > else for that matter.
      >
      >
      >
      > This is all hearsay but I am thinking of trying it so if anyone
      knows more
      > about it I would be interested in hearing first hand stories.
      >
      >
      >
      > Cheers, Linda
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Garth & Kim Travis
      Greetings, Please define modern . If you mean the factory farm, then it has been in production for many years and is considered the tried, true, old
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
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        Greetings,
        Please define 'modern'. If you mean the factory farm, then it has been
        in production for many years and is considered the tried, true, old
        fashioned way of farming.

        If you mean the new, modern, feed the soil not the plants, natural diets
        for all, then you are very far off the mark. Many people that are
        raising animals today do so for spiritual values, not greed.

        There are many metabolic types of humans, and some can not survive on a
        vegetarian diet, let alone a vegan diet. To them, that is very poor
        health. This is especially true of people with very northern heredity,
        from cultures that traditionally only ate meat.

        There is a real joy in healing the land, saving animals that are on the
        endangered species list and providing good, healthy natural food for
        people who appreciate it. No greed involved.

        Bright Blessings,
        Kim




        robin wrote:
        >> i do not object to eating meat if one has nothing else to eat. but
        > wasn't it ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed.
        > shawn is right when he said modern meat-farming is all about money
        > these days, and i think much is being tolerated in many people's own
        > souls in so many of the "modern" systems going on today. you don't
        > want to teach yourself to be cruel for the money or for the rich diet
        > it may bring. you want to learn and experience the natural order of
        > life, with all it's great teachers and creatures, and you don't want
        > to become an impediment or controller or apply too many methods to
        > nature or it will not be true nature.
      • Sergio Montinola
        Dear All, Ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed. We in the Philippines have yet to believe and practice this very wise saying. The world too has to
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
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          Dear All,

          Ghandi who said, "feed the need, not the greed."

          We in the Philippines have yet to believe and practice this very wise saying. The world too has to consider and listen?

          The email is a wonderfull way of doing this too. More info and help to the needy will be appreciated. Afterall its God's plan and gift to the people He created and "let no man put assunder".

          More power to you and keep writing.

          Serge Montinola











          robin <witchessocks@...> wrote:
          dear linda, and all friends;

          my grandfather for many years operated what you might remember was a
          true to type traditional "old mcdonalds' type farm here in the
          mountains of southwestern virginia where he grew tobacco and had cows,
          horses, and poultry, as well as a family vegetable garden.

          he had a diversity of fowl, guineas as well as turkeys, ducks, and
          chickens.

          i remember fondly yet distantly (i was fairly small) the barnyard scene;
          turkeys strutting around as the "upperclass" in the pecking order by
          sheer ferocity,
          chasing and menacing all who would be careless enough to be caught in
          their way.
          chickens worriedly picking their paths through the large dirt yard,
          avoiding the turkeys whenever possible, dividing their time between
          the coop and the feeding areas, surrounding grandpa or grandma
          whenever they came out to throw corn and feed out to them, pecking up
          as much as they could before the more stately king turkey and his
          entourage arrived to try to dominate the situation.
          ducks would stay to the outskirts/banks of the yard near the pond.
          the guineas' strength is in numbers, and their racket and speed. they
          are wilder,slender creatures, and prefer outlying areas. when they do
          come through the yard to there are a lot of them, and they are fast.
          they tend to disappear more quickly into the woods over time, so it
          would seem that you would need to keep a large flock to balance
          losses. the more guineas you have in the flocks the safer they feel to
          come and get fed. fortunately, they tend to multiply well and are,
          from what i remember, not as expensive as chickens in the initial
          investment.i'm not sure or i've forgotten whether there is a "danger"
          of guineas breeding out to wild birds, you might want to check that.

          one thing also that i remember...the sight of my grandfather wringing
          the chickens' necks and the whole ritual that that involved. that made
          a darker aspect to the barnyard psychology. the chickens were
          terrorized even as they were getting fed, and it made for a tenser
          atmosphere for all involved. it made for me an aura of cruelty about
          my grandfather (though he endeavored to maintain
          a sense of humor about it) and for the whole business, even though at
          the same time, i realize now, that these birds, and all of the animals
          on the farm, enjoyed a much greater freedom and natural, normal
          quality of life than most do today.

          i believe that, for fukuoka-san, farming is mainly working on one's
          own mindset, to allow compassion and cooperation to be within one's
          association with other creatures, not so much competition or
          controlling, or victimization of these useful fellows.
          they take a lot of work if you are raising them to eat, you have to
          over-protect them from casualties diligently, yet it is you who,
          ironically, inflict the ultimate casualty upon them, and that is a
          fear-inducing situation. that did and would wear on me, for one. meat
          farms indeniably promote a concious or unconcious bad feeling among
          the participants.this gives rise to defensiveness.

          i do not object to eating meat if one has nothing else to eat. but
          wasn't it ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed.
          shawn is right when he said modern meat-farming is all about money
          these days, and i think much is being tolerated in many people's own
          souls in so many of the "modern" systems going on today. you don't
          want to teach yourself to be cruel for the money or for the rich diet
          it may bring. you want to learn and experience the natural order of
          life, with all it's great teachers and creatures, and you don't want
          to become an impediment or controller or apply too many methods to
          nature or it will not be true nature.
          therefore, growing plant crops for yourself and to share with other
          members of nature makes everybody healthier and sounder and happier in
          body and mind. that's been proven. it's also been proven that
          meat-farming contributes to confusion about food and what the natural
          food of plant-eating animals are, witness madcow,etc.

          even if one concedes that humans are suited for a small amount of
          meat in their diets- in the processing of many foods, meat or not,
          things that are not suitable are inadverdently, or in some cases,
          purposely included in the "food" to either pad it out, or to make it
          look or taste more attractive, appealing to our addiction or craving
          triggers.

          as far as triggering cravings, the old people in our family called
          this phenomenon "getting the taste of meat in your mouth" in referring
          to a dog who got the bad habit of killing chickens or "sucking eggs".
          the same thing can happen to people, in my opinion. one more thing.
          eating too much meat contributes to world hunger and global warming.
          so i'm not saying no meat, i'm saying less meat. less meat, less heat.

          let's see what kind of a different argument i get from you all, now.
          i like debating, sometimes. try not to come down on me like a ton of
          bricks!
          i hope that gave you more of a sense about guineas, linda***robin***

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Shewan"
          <linda_shewan@...> wrote:
          >
          > I don't know if you have them in your neck of the woods but guinea
          fowl are
          > meant to be excellent for keeping snakes away. One example is
          > http://www.guineafarm.com/guineas.html . And if you google "guinea fowl
          > snakes" you will find many more I am sure. They are VERY noisy I
          understand
          > so might not be best under the bedroom window. They free range
          completely
          > and will keep themselves out of danger if you have a good tree they can
          > roost in.
          >
          >
          >
          > They will also certainly let you know if a fox is in the area, or
          anything
          > else for that matter.
          >
          >
          >
          > This is all hearsay but I am thinking of trying it so if anyone
          knows more
          > about it I would be interested in hearing first hand stories.
          >
          >
          >
          > Cheers, Linda
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >






          ---------------------------------
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • robin
          dear kim, you have some good points. i guess when i say modern i mean mass-produced, confined, commercial farming for profit, high yields on a small space of
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
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            dear kim,

            you have some good points. i guess when i say "modern" i mean
            mass-produced, confined, commercial farming for profit, high yields on
            a small space of land...that doesn't
            sound like your farm. no fault can be found with keeping animals
            out of love and joy and you have a trusting relationship going with
            your animals.
            and yes, the most modern version of going back to the land,
            permaculture-related, is headed in a much more natural direction,
            that's true.

            i couldn't call my grandpa's farm truly natural, it was more a
            traditional, old-school family farm, we all ate chicken, yet it was as
            close
            to natural as i've ever experienced. his farm was tucked in the mountains,
            very rural; he had a large number of various fowl, but enough space for
            them all, and very diverse vegetation and hiding places for them to
            choose. and he let them be half-wild.

            i think what fukuoka-san is trying to say is in order to raise natural
            chickens or other fowl, they should not be confined in any way. in
            fact, he wrote

            "if poultry and livestock are to truly benefit man, they must be
            capable of feeding and fending for themselves under the open sky. only
            then will food become naturally plentiful and contribute to man's
            well-being".

            fukuoka-san had chickens and ducks and let them grow up among the
            vegetables
            and grains and revert back to half-wild. when he could no longer keep
            them in that way because of a highway, he stopped keeping them.

            in regard to meat-eating, fukuoka-san wrote of an application his
            friend george ohsawaw had worked out;

            "meat is yang and vegetables yin, with grains in between. because man
            is an omnivorous animal that is yang, this leads to a set of
            principles which says that, when grains, which are intermediate, are
            eaten as the staple, yin vegetables should be consumed and meat (very
            yang)--consumption of which is essentially cannabalism--should be
            avoided."

            yet fukuoka-san was more tolerant and neutral than that. although
            completely or mainly
            vegetarian himself, he did not delve into scientific analysis about
            it, considering such an analysis pointed away from non-active nature
            and into discriminating knowledge. i guess that's my cue to follow his
            lead.

            ***robin***

            p.s.after all my words going on and on i found a quote that says it all;

            find the shortest, simplest way between the earth, the hands, and the
            mouth.---lanza del vasto









            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Garth & Kim Travis
            <gartht@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings,
            > Please define 'modern'. If you mean the factory farm, then it has been
            > in production for many years and is considered the tried, true, old
            > fashioned way of farming.
            >
            > If you mean the new, modern, feed the soil not the plants, natural
            diets
            > for all, then you are very far off the mark. Many people that are
            > raising animals today do so for spiritual values, not greed.
            >
            > There are many metabolic types of humans, and some can not survive on a
            > vegetarian diet, let alone a vegan diet. To them, that is very poor
            > health. This is especially true of people with very northern heredity,
            > from cultures that traditionally only ate meat.
            >
            > There is a real joy in healing the land, saving animals that are on the
            > endangered species list and providing good, healthy natural food for
            > people who appreciate it. No greed involved.
            >
            > Bright Blessings,
            > Kim
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Garth & Kim Travis
            Greetings, You bring up many good points, and I wish I could just let my animals run, but then they would be in the county lock up, not running free. We have
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
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              Greetings,
              You bring up many good points, and I wish I could just let my animals
              run, but then they would be in the county lock up, not running free. We
              have too many people and all the land is owned. We also have neighbors
              that think it is funny when their animals kill yours. Stupid man,
              didn't think his dogs would kill his own calves when they were born. I
              feel sorry for all his animals, especially his dogs.

              I know many people that raise animals for consumption that are doing it
              for the same reasons I do, and in much the same way. We go as natural
              as possible in a confused world, with strange laws.

              While I respect Fukuoka-san, he was Oriental. His heredity was very
              different from mine, we all not all the same. His pancreas was probably
              twice the size of mine, if our bodies were the same size, due to
              hereditary diet. I am aware than many people do very well on a
              vegetarian diet, and some on a vegan diet provided they take their pills
              for the B vitamins. [I think that is the right one.] I don't eat meat
              at every meal, I never sit down to a 16 ounce steak or any other overly
              done nonsense. I do eat meat most days, or animal protein. For my body
              type, this is good for me and I am much healthier for it. But my
              ancestors lived on a diet that was mostly animal protein. My snacks and
              at least 2/3 of my meals are vegetables, grains and fruit. I do not
              eat processed food at all.

              I would urge people to eat clean, naturally raised food that is
              compatible with their heredity. A well balanced diet including meat can
              be very healthy, if that is what an individuals body needs. If one has
              a different heredity than me, of course their body is a bit different.
              This is why all blood work comes with ranges that are good, not exact
              numbers, our bodies are not exactly the same.

              Bright Blessings,
              Kim

              robin wrote:
              >
              >> i think what fukuoka-san is trying to say is in order to raise natural
              > chickens or other fowl, they should not be confined in any way. in
              > fact, he wrote
              >
              > "if poultry and livestock are to truly benefit man, they must be
              > capable of feeding and fending for themselves under the open sky. only
              > then will food become naturally plentiful and contribute to man's
              > well-being".
              >
              > fukuoka-san had chickens and ducks and let them grow up among the
              > vegetables
              > and grains and revert back to half-wild. when he could no longer keep
              > them in that way because of a highway, he stopped keeping them.
              >
              > in regard to meat-eating, fukuoka-san wrote of an application his
              > friend george ohsawaw had worked out;
              >
              > "meat is yang and vegetables yin, with grains in between. because man
              > is an omnivorous animal that is yang, this leads to a set of
              > principles which says that, when grains, which are intermediate, are
              > eaten as the staple, yin vegetables should be consumed and meat (very
              > yang)--consumption of which is essentially cannabalism--should be
              > avoided."
              >
              > yet fukuoka-san was more tolerant and neutral than that. although
              > completely or mainly
              > vegetarian himself, he did not delve into scientific analysis about
              > it, considering such an analysis pointed away from non-active nature
              > and into discriminating knowledge. i guess that's my cue to follow his
              > lead.
              >
              > ***robin***
              >
              > p.s.after all my words going on and on i found a quote that says it all;
              >
              > find the shortest, simplest way between the earth, the hands, and the
              > mouth.---lanza del vasto
              >
              >
              >
            • Dieter Brand
              Nobody needs to make excuses for including meat in his or her diet. But I don t believe that heredity or the dietary habits of one s ancestors necessarily
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
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                Nobody needs to make excuses for including meat in his or
                her diet. But I don't believe that heredity or the dietary habits
                of one's ancestors necessarily serve to define good life style
                patterns for the present or future.

                What is significant in the life style of primitive man/woman
                on this planet is not that he/she also ate meat but that they
                didn't eat anything at all for extended periods of time. And
                when a sumptuous meal could be consumed this was done
                at the expense of a considerable amount of physical labour.
                Today, that has dramatically changed, and our dietary habits
                have to change accordingly. The sedentary office worker can
                without any labour at all stuff him/her-self with big chunks of
                meat from morning till evening. And I have seen too many
                overweight men that didn't make it passed their 50th birthday.

                If we feel a desire to eat meat, that is not necessarily because
                our body sends us subtle messages regarding it's nutritional
                needs, that is more often than not on the same level as the craving
                for the next cigarette or a bar of chocolate. Now, I hope nobody
                will claim that his/her ancestors lived primarily on chocolate.

                Dieter Brand
                Portugal

                Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
                Greetings,
                You bring up many good points, and I wish I could just let my animals
                run, but then they would be in the county lock up, not running free. We
                have too many people and all the land is owned. We also have neighbors
                that think it is funny when their animals kill yours. Stupid man,
                didn't think his dogs would kill his own calves when they were born. I
                feel sorry for all his animals, especially his dogs.

                I know many people that raise animals for consumption that are doing it
                for the same reasons I do, and in much the same way. We go as natural
                as possible in a confused world, with strange laws.

                While I respect Fukuoka-san, he was Oriental. His heredity was very
                different from mine, we all not all the same. His pancreas was probably
                twice the size of mine, if our bodies were the same size, due to
                hereditary diet. I am aware than many people do very well on a
                vegetarian diet, and some on a vegan diet provided they take their pills
                for the B vitamins. [I think that is the right one.] I don't eat meat
                at every meal, I never sit down to a 16 ounce steak or any other overly
                done nonsense. I do eat meat most days, or animal protein. For my body
                type, this is good for me and I am much healthier for it. But my
                ancestors lived on a diet that was mostly animal protein. My snacks and
                at least 2/3 of my meals are vegetables, grains and fruit. I do not
                eat processed food at all.

                I would urge people to eat clean, naturally raised food that is
                compatible with their heredity. A well balanced diet including meat can
                be very healthy, if that is what an individuals body needs. If one has
                a different heredity than me, of course their body is a bit different.
                This is why all blood work comes with ranges that are good, not exact
                numbers, our bodies are not exactly the same.

                Bright Blessings,
                Kim

                robin wrote:
                >
                >> i think what fukuoka-san is trying to say is in order to raise natural
                > chickens or other fowl, they should not be confined in any way. in
                > fact, he wrote
                >
                > "if poultry and livestock are to truly benefit man, they must be
                > capable of feeding and fending for themselves under the open sky. only
                > then will food become naturally plentiful and contribute to man's
                > well-being".
                >
                > fukuoka-san had chickens and ducks and let them grow up among the
                > vegetables
                > and grains and revert back to half-wild. when he could no longer keep
                > them in that way because of a highway, he stopped keeping them.
                >
                > in regard to meat-eating, fukuoka-san wrote of an application his
                > friend george ohsawaw had worked out;
                >
                > "meat is yang and vegetables yin, with grains in between. because man
                > is an omnivorous animal that is yang, this leads to a set of
                > principles which says that, when grains, which are intermediate, are
                > eaten as the staple, yin vegetables should be consumed and meat (very
                > yang)--consumption of which is essentially cannabalism--should be
                > avoided."
                >
                > yet fukuoka-san was more tolerant and neutral than that. although
                > completely or mainly
                > vegetarian himself, he did not delve into scientific analysis about
                > it, considering such an analysis pointed away from non-active nature
                > and into discriminating knowledge. i guess that's my cue to follow his
                > lead.
                >
                > ***robin***
                >
                > p.s.after all my words going on and on i found a quote that says it all;
                >
                > find the shortest, simplest way between the earth, the hands, and the
                > mouth.---lanza del vasto
                >
                >
                >





                ---------------------------------
                Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • basjoos
                ... In One Straw Revolution , Fukuoka-san mentions that Japanese farmers used to keep a breed of chicken that was safe to keep in the vegetable garden. It
                Message 7 of 24 , Apr 27, 2008
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                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Weiss" <bazzrad@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My understanding of chickens in a natural system is incredibly basic!
                  > Can you recommend to me any specific breeds that are good for a
                  > garden? How can I prevent the chickens from eating our produce? I
                  > just read briefly about creating a "forage garden" for the chickens...
                  > know anything about this? Should they have a specific enclosure and be
                  > released at certain times? Any advice on a good egg-laying breed?... a
                  > low-maintenance breed?
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  > Ben
                  >

                  In "One Straw Revolution", Fukuoka-san mentions that Japanese farmers
                  used to keep a breed of chicken that was safe to keep in the vegetable
                  garden. It would eat the insects and leave the crop plants alone. I'm
                  wondering if this breed was the "shamo" chickens that he had running
                  loose in his orchard/vegetable garden. The shamo is a very small
                  bantam chicken.

                  In the book "Farmers of Fourty Centuries" where the author describes
                  the agricultural system in China circa 1900 (a very good read if you
                  are into composting, as he describes the techniques used by the Chinese
                  to keep their fields fertile after up to 4000 years of cultivation), he
                  mentions that the sheep, goats, and cattle in the parts of China that
                  he visited (the densely populated coastal regions) don't eat the crop
                  plants even if they get pushed off the narrow paths and into a crop
                  field by other traffic and confine their grazing to grasses and plants
                  in non-crop fields. I suspect this behavior is the result of centuries
                  of culling those animals that would help themselves to the crop when
                  given the opportunity. So it may also be true that Chinese chicken and
                  duck breeds have this trait (if they haven't been kept and non-
                  selectively bred in this country for long enough to have lost it).

                  It might be worthwhile testing some Japanese chicken breeds such as
                  shamo, kurokashiwa, and tomaru, and Chinese breeds such as langshan,
                  brahma, and nanking, to see if they show a propensity toward eating
                  vegetable plants if given the opportunity.
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