Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [fukuoka_farming] Chickens???

Expand Messages
  • Linda Shewan
    I don t know if you have them in your neck of the woods but guinea fowl are meant to be excellent for keeping snakes away. One example is
    Message 1 of 24 , Jan 31, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      I don't know if you have them in your neck of the woods but guinea fowl are
      meant to be excellent for keeping snakes away. One example is
      http://www.guineafarm.com/guineas.html . And if you google "guinea fowl
      snakes" you will find many more I am sure. They are VERY noisy I understand
      so might not be best under the bedroom window. They free range completely
      and will keep themselves out of danger if you have a good tree they can
      roost in.



      They will also certainly let you know if a fox is in the area, or anything
      else for that matter.



      This is all hearsay but I am thinking of trying it so if anyone knows more
      about it I would be interested in hearing first hand stories.



      Cheers, Linda





      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Garth & Kim Travis
      Sent: Friday, 1 February 2008 3:55 AM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Chickens???



      Greetings,
      The only free range chickens I have seen survive, are in a very well
      fenced pasture that has a perimeter patrolled by several large guardian
      dogs, then another fence. The owners daily patrol the fences looking
      for places where predators have attempted to get through. Too much work
      for me, I don't have time. Especially since all the fences in the world
      won't keep the birds safe from hawks.

      There are many options on how to keep chickens safe and still let them
      do most of their own feeding. We feed ours a mixture of one part each
      of black oily sunflower seeds, shell corn, barley and oats. I get good
      egg production, year round and my birds are never sick. All of these
      foods will grow without too much trouble on my land, which is my next
      step. Most recipes I have found for poultry call for wheat, which is
      very difficult for me to grow, so I experimented and continued to learn.
      I have been feeding my mixture for 18 months now and am happy with the
      results. My birds are on pasture and get the bonus of all horned worms
      I find in my garden in the summer.

      Much of what I use may or may not be available in your part of the
      world. I have built small chicken tractors that were 4'x8' that make
      good shelters and are easy to move by hand. I have been known to attach
      posts to large peices of plywood, for the base. The movable fence is
      attached by using clips on fence nails that are not pounded in all the
      way. When I was using this, my dogs were still young enough to protect
      against all predators.

      Adult birds don't get killed as easy as chicks. Snakes don't bother the
      adults, they just steal eggs. Baby chicks are a snakes idea of a
      perfect snack. I have yet to figure out how to prevent the snakes from
      getting in the pens, so I can't let my birds propagate naturally. This
      is something I will continue to work on.

      From the hearsay of other bamboo growers in my state, I hear that the
      snakes don't like the bamboo groves. We have planted bamboo for many
      purposes and have one large area, 50'x600' that we will let grow into a
      real grove. If what they say is true, then our idea of keeping all our
      poultry in the groves will work very well. The bamboo will protect from
      hawks, provide shade and some food. I find it hard to believe the
      snakes won't love the place as well, as they do like any well shaded
      place I can find, but maybe the bamboo plants, roots or leaves are hard
      on their skin, I don't know.

      Many of the slower growing, beautiful chickens are on the endangered
      species list. Once you have your birds safe, and you understand what it
      is you need, you may considered keeping endangered birds, just to help
      them survive.

      I would send pictures of what I mean, but my phone line is a mess due to
      high rain and lousy service. My dial up is setting record lows for log
      on times [like 4.5] and pictures just constipate my computer to the
      point where it quits.

      Bright Blessings,
      Kim

      Dieter Brand wrote:
      > Kim,
      >
      > I haven't really figured out in detail how I'm going to do this,
      > but I don't intend to keep them in a 10' by 10' area.
      >
      > We have 30 acres which it would be impossible to fence in,
      > well not impossible, but very expensive. At present, I tend
      > towards a movable chicken coop, perhaps on wheels, that
      > I can move from one area to another. Some places are good
      > in the Winter, while others would be preferable during the
      > Summer. Moving them to a new location, I would then use
      > movable or temporary fences to keep them in that location.
      > We are surrounded on all sides by vast forests which are
      > full of predators. Neighbours complain about chickens being
      > killed in broad daylight. And we are even more remote.
      > They wouldn't survive the first week if I were to give them
      > free-range.
      >
      > Where can I find a description of those movable shelters
      > and movable fences you mentioned?
      >
      > And what about feed? As I said, there is plenty of land
      > for them to look for food. Would they find enough on their
      > own? Or would I have to feed them additional grains or
      > something?
      >
      > Dieter Brand
      > Portugal
      >





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • robin
      dear linda, and all friends; my grandfather for many years operated what you might remember was a true to type traditional old mcdonalds type farm here in
      Message 2 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        dear linda, and all friends;

        my grandfather for many years operated what you might remember was a
        true to type traditional "old mcdonalds' type farm here in the
        mountains of southwestern virginia where he grew tobacco and had cows,
        horses, and poultry, as well as a family vegetable garden.

        he had a diversity of fowl, guineas as well as turkeys, ducks, and
        chickens.

        i remember fondly yet distantly (i was fairly small) the barnyard scene;
        turkeys strutting around as the "upperclass" in the pecking order by
        sheer ferocity,
        chasing and menacing all who would be careless enough to be caught in
        their way.
        chickens worriedly picking their paths through the large dirt yard,
        avoiding the turkeys whenever possible, dividing their time between
        the coop and the feeding areas, surrounding grandpa or grandma
        whenever they came out to throw corn and feed out to them, pecking up
        as much as they could before the more stately king turkey and his
        entourage arrived to try to dominate the situation.
        ducks would stay to the outskirts/banks of the yard near the pond.
        the guineas' strength is in numbers, and their racket and speed. they
        are wilder,slender creatures, and prefer outlying areas. when they do
        come through the yard to there are a lot of them, and they are fast.
        they tend to disappear more quickly into the woods over time, so it
        would seem that you would need to keep a large flock to balance
        losses. the more guineas you have in the flocks the safer they feel to
        come and get fed. fortunately, they tend to multiply well and are,
        from what i remember, not as expensive as chickens in the initial
        investment.i'm not sure or i've forgotten whether there is a "danger"
        of guineas breeding out to wild birds, you might want to check that.

        one thing also that i remember...the sight of my grandfather wringing
        the chickens' necks and the whole ritual that that involved. that made
        a darker aspect to the barnyard psychology. the chickens were
        terrorized even as they were getting fed, and it made for a tenser
        atmosphere for all involved. it made for me an aura of cruelty about
        my grandfather (though he endeavored to maintain
        a sense of humor about it) and for the whole business, even though at
        the same time, i realize now, that these birds, and all of the animals
        on the farm, enjoyed a much greater freedom and natural, normal
        quality of life than most do today.

        i believe that, for fukuoka-san, farming is mainly working on one's
        own mindset, to allow compassion and cooperation to be within one's
        association with other creatures, not so much competition or
        controlling, or victimization of these useful fellows.
        they take a lot of work if you are raising them to eat, you have to
        over-protect them from casualties diligently, yet it is you who,
        ironically, inflict the ultimate casualty upon them, and that is a
        fear-inducing situation. that did and would wear on me, for one. meat
        farms indeniably promote a concious or unconcious bad feeling among
        the participants.this gives rise to defensiveness.

        i do not object to eating meat if one has nothing else to eat. but
        wasn't it ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed.
        shawn is right when he said modern meat-farming is all about money
        these days, and i think much is being tolerated in many people's own
        souls in so many of the "modern" systems going on today. you don't
        want to teach yourself to be cruel for the money or for the rich diet
        it may bring. you want to learn and experience the natural order of
        life, with all it's great teachers and creatures, and you don't want
        to become an impediment or controller or apply too many methods to
        nature or it will not be true nature.
        therefore, growing plant crops for yourself and to share with other
        members of nature makes everybody healthier and sounder and happier in
        body and mind. that's been proven. it's also been proven that
        meat-farming contributes to confusion about food and what the natural
        food of plant-eating animals are, witness madcow,etc.

        even if one concedes that humans are suited for a small amount of
        meat in their diets- in the processing of many foods, meat or not,
        things that are not suitable are inadverdently, or in some cases,
        purposely included in the "food" to either pad it out, or to make it
        look or taste more attractive, appealing to our addiction or craving
        triggers.

        as far as triggering cravings, the old people in our family called
        this phenomenon "getting the taste of meat in your mouth" in referring
        to a dog who got the bad habit of killing chickens or "sucking eggs".
        the same thing can happen to people, in my opinion. one more thing.
        eating too much meat contributes to world hunger and global warming.
        so i'm not saying no meat, i'm saying less meat. less meat, less heat.

        let's see what kind of a different argument i get from you all, now.
        i like debating, sometimes. try not to come down on me like a ton of
        bricks!
        i hope that gave you more of a sense about guineas, linda***robin***





        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Shewan"
        <linda_shewan@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't know if you have them in your neck of the woods but guinea
        fowl are
        > meant to be excellent for keeping snakes away. One example is
        > http://www.guineafarm.com/guineas.html . And if you google "guinea fowl
        > snakes" you will find many more I am sure. They are VERY noisy I
        understand
        > so might not be best under the bedroom window. They free range
        completely
        > and will keep themselves out of danger if you have a good tree they can
        > roost in.
        >
        >
        >
        > They will also certainly let you know if a fox is in the area, or
        anything
        > else for that matter.
        >
        >
        >
        > This is all hearsay but I am thinking of trying it so if anyone
        knows more
        > about it I would be interested in hearing first hand stories.
        >
        >
        >
        > Cheers, Linda
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Garth & Kim Travis
        Greetings, Please define modern . If you mean the factory farm, then it has been in production for many years and is considered the tried, true, old
        Message 3 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Greetings,
          Please define 'modern'. If you mean the factory farm, then it has been
          in production for many years and is considered the tried, true, old
          fashioned way of farming.

          If you mean the new, modern, feed the soil not the plants, natural diets
          for all, then you are very far off the mark. Many people that are
          raising animals today do so for spiritual values, not greed.

          There are many metabolic types of humans, and some can not survive on a
          vegetarian diet, let alone a vegan diet. To them, that is very poor
          health. This is especially true of people with very northern heredity,
          from cultures that traditionally only ate meat.

          There is a real joy in healing the land, saving animals that are on the
          endangered species list and providing good, healthy natural food for
          people who appreciate it. No greed involved.

          Bright Blessings,
          Kim




          robin wrote:
          >> i do not object to eating meat if one has nothing else to eat. but
          > wasn't it ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed.
          > shawn is right when he said modern meat-farming is all about money
          > these days, and i think much is being tolerated in many people's own
          > souls in so many of the "modern" systems going on today. you don't
          > want to teach yourself to be cruel for the money or for the rich diet
          > it may bring. you want to learn and experience the natural order of
          > life, with all it's great teachers and creatures, and you don't want
          > to become an impediment or controller or apply too many methods to
          > nature or it will not be true nature.
        • Sergio Montinola
          Dear All, Ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed. We in the Philippines have yet to believe and practice this very wise saying. The world too has to
          Message 4 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear All,

            Ghandi who said, "feed the need, not the greed."

            We in the Philippines have yet to believe and practice this very wise saying. The world too has to consider and listen?

            The email is a wonderfull way of doing this too. More info and help to the needy will be appreciated. Afterall its God's plan and gift to the people He created and "let no man put assunder".

            More power to you and keep writing.

            Serge Montinola











            robin <witchessocks@...> wrote:
            dear linda, and all friends;

            my grandfather for many years operated what you might remember was a
            true to type traditional "old mcdonalds' type farm here in the
            mountains of southwestern virginia where he grew tobacco and had cows,
            horses, and poultry, as well as a family vegetable garden.

            he had a diversity of fowl, guineas as well as turkeys, ducks, and
            chickens.

            i remember fondly yet distantly (i was fairly small) the barnyard scene;
            turkeys strutting around as the "upperclass" in the pecking order by
            sheer ferocity,
            chasing and menacing all who would be careless enough to be caught in
            their way.
            chickens worriedly picking their paths through the large dirt yard,
            avoiding the turkeys whenever possible, dividing their time between
            the coop and the feeding areas, surrounding grandpa or grandma
            whenever they came out to throw corn and feed out to them, pecking up
            as much as they could before the more stately king turkey and his
            entourage arrived to try to dominate the situation.
            ducks would stay to the outskirts/banks of the yard near the pond.
            the guineas' strength is in numbers, and their racket and speed. they
            are wilder,slender creatures, and prefer outlying areas. when they do
            come through the yard to there are a lot of them, and they are fast.
            they tend to disappear more quickly into the woods over time, so it
            would seem that you would need to keep a large flock to balance
            losses. the more guineas you have in the flocks the safer they feel to
            come and get fed. fortunately, they tend to multiply well and are,
            from what i remember, not as expensive as chickens in the initial
            investment.i'm not sure or i've forgotten whether there is a "danger"
            of guineas breeding out to wild birds, you might want to check that.

            one thing also that i remember...the sight of my grandfather wringing
            the chickens' necks and the whole ritual that that involved. that made
            a darker aspect to the barnyard psychology. the chickens were
            terrorized even as they were getting fed, and it made for a tenser
            atmosphere for all involved. it made for me an aura of cruelty about
            my grandfather (though he endeavored to maintain
            a sense of humor about it) and for the whole business, even though at
            the same time, i realize now, that these birds, and all of the animals
            on the farm, enjoyed a much greater freedom and natural, normal
            quality of life than most do today.

            i believe that, for fukuoka-san, farming is mainly working on one's
            own mindset, to allow compassion and cooperation to be within one's
            association with other creatures, not so much competition or
            controlling, or victimization of these useful fellows.
            they take a lot of work if you are raising them to eat, you have to
            over-protect them from casualties diligently, yet it is you who,
            ironically, inflict the ultimate casualty upon them, and that is a
            fear-inducing situation. that did and would wear on me, for one. meat
            farms indeniably promote a concious or unconcious bad feeling among
            the participants.this gives rise to defensiveness.

            i do not object to eating meat if one has nothing else to eat. but
            wasn't it ghandi who said, feed the need, not the greed.
            shawn is right when he said modern meat-farming is all about money
            these days, and i think much is being tolerated in many people's own
            souls in so many of the "modern" systems going on today. you don't
            want to teach yourself to be cruel for the money or for the rich diet
            it may bring. you want to learn and experience the natural order of
            life, with all it's great teachers and creatures, and you don't want
            to become an impediment or controller or apply too many methods to
            nature or it will not be true nature.
            therefore, growing plant crops for yourself and to share with other
            members of nature makes everybody healthier and sounder and happier in
            body and mind. that's been proven. it's also been proven that
            meat-farming contributes to confusion about food and what the natural
            food of plant-eating animals are, witness madcow,etc.

            even if one concedes that humans are suited for a small amount of
            meat in their diets- in the processing of many foods, meat or not,
            things that are not suitable are inadverdently, or in some cases,
            purposely included in the "food" to either pad it out, or to make it
            look or taste more attractive, appealing to our addiction or craving
            triggers.

            as far as triggering cravings, the old people in our family called
            this phenomenon "getting the taste of meat in your mouth" in referring
            to a dog who got the bad habit of killing chickens or "sucking eggs".
            the same thing can happen to people, in my opinion. one more thing.
            eating too much meat contributes to world hunger and global warming.
            so i'm not saying no meat, i'm saying less meat. less meat, less heat.

            let's see what kind of a different argument i get from you all, now.
            i like debating, sometimes. try not to come down on me like a ton of
            bricks!
            i hope that gave you more of a sense about guineas, linda***robin***

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Linda Shewan"
            <linda_shewan@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't know if you have them in your neck of the woods but guinea
            fowl are
            > meant to be excellent for keeping snakes away. One example is
            > http://www.guineafarm.com/guineas.html . And if you google "guinea fowl
            > snakes" you will find many more I am sure. They are VERY noisy I
            understand
            > so might not be best under the bedroom window. They free range
            completely
            > and will keep themselves out of danger if you have a good tree they can
            > roost in.
            >
            >
            >
            > They will also certainly let you know if a fox is in the area, or
            anything
            > else for that matter.
            >
            >
            >
            > This is all hearsay but I am thinking of trying it so if anyone
            knows more
            > about it I would be interested in hearing first hand stories.
            >
            >
            >
            > Cheers, Linda
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >






            ---------------------------------
            Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • robin
            dear kim, you have some good points. i guess when i say modern i mean mass-produced, confined, commercial farming for profit, high yields on a small space of
            Message 5 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
            • 0 Attachment
              dear kim,

              you have some good points. i guess when i say "modern" i mean
              mass-produced, confined, commercial farming for profit, high yields on
              a small space of land...that doesn't
              sound like your farm. no fault can be found with keeping animals
              out of love and joy and you have a trusting relationship going with
              your animals.
              and yes, the most modern version of going back to the land,
              permaculture-related, is headed in a much more natural direction,
              that's true.

              i couldn't call my grandpa's farm truly natural, it was more a
              traditional, old-school family farm, we all ate chicken, yet it was as
              close
              to natural as i've ever experienced. his farm was tucked in the mountains,
              very rural; he had a large number of various fowl, but enough space for
              them all, and very diverse vegetation and hiding places for them to
              choose. and he let them be half-wild.

              i think what fukuoka-san is trying to say is in order to raise natural
              chickens or other fowl, they should not be confined in any way. in
              fact, he wrote

              "if poultry and livestock are to truly benefit man, they must be
              capable of feeding and fending for themselves under the open sky. only
              then will food become naturally plentiful and contribute to man's
              well-being".

              fukuoka-san had chickens and ducks and let them grow up among the
              vegetables
              and grains and revert back to half-wild. when he could no longer keep
              them in that way because of a highway, he stopped keeping them.

              in regard to meat-eating, fukuoka-san wrote of an application his
              friend george ohsawaw had worked out;

              "meat is yang and vegetables yin, with grains in between. because man
              is an omnivorous animal that is yang, this leads to a set of
              principles which says that, when grains, which are intermediate, are
              eaten as the staple, yin vegetables should be consumed and meat (very
              yang)--consumption of which is essentially cannabalism--should be
              avoided."

              yet fukuoka-san was more tolerant and neutral than that. although
              completely or mainly
              vegetarian himself, he did not delve into scientific analysis about
              it, considering such an analysis pointed away from non-active nature
              and into discriminating knowledge. i guess that's my cue to follow his
              lead.

              ***robin***

              p.s.after all my words going on and on i found a quote that says it all;

              find the shortest, simplest way between the earth, the hands, and the
              mouth.---lanza del vasto









              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Garth & Kim Travis
              <gartht@...> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings,
              > Please define 'modern'. If you mean the factory farm, then it has been
              > in production for many years and is considered the tried, true, old
              > fashioned way of farming.
              >
              > If you mean the new, modern, feed the soil not the plants, natural
              diets
              > for all, then you are very far off the mark. Many people that are
              > raising animals today do so for spiritual values, not greed.
              >
              > There are many metabolic types of humans, and some can not survive on a
              > vegetarian diet, let alone a vegan diet. To them, that is very poor
              > health. This is especially true of people with very northern heredity,
              > from cultures that traditionally only ate meat.
              >
              > There is a real joy in healing the land, saving animals that are on the
              > endangered species list and providing good, healthy natural food for
              > people who appreciate it. No greed involved.
              >
              > Bright Blessings,
              > Kim
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Garth & Kim Travis
              Greetings, You bring up many good points, and I wish I could just let my animals run, but then they would be in the county lock up, not running free. We have
              Message 6 of 24 , Feb 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Greetings,
                You bring up many good points, and I wish I could just let my animals
                run, but then they would be in the county lock up, not running free. We
                have too many people and all the land is owned. We also have neighbors
                that think it is funny when their animals kill yours. Stupid man,
                didn't think his dogs would kill his own calves when they were born. I
                feel sorry for all his animals, especially his dogs.

                I know many people that raise animals for consumption that are doing it
                for the same reasons I do, and in much the same way. We go as natural
                as possible in a confused world, with strange laws.

                While I respect Fukuoka-san, he was Oriental. His heredity was very
                different from mine, we all not all the same. His pancreas was probably
                twice the size of mine, if our bodies were the same size, due to
                hereditary diet. I am aware than many people do very well on a
                vegetarian diet, and some on a vegan diet provided they take their pills
                for the B vitamins. [I think that is the right one.] I don't eat meat
                at every meal, I never sit down to a 16 ounce steak or any other overly
                done nonsense. I do eat meat most days, or animal protein. For my body
                type, this is good for me and I am much healthier for it. But my
                ancestors lived on a diet that was mostly animal protein. My snacks and
                at least 2/3 of my meals are vegetables, grains and fruit. I do not
                eat processed food at all.

                I would urge people to eat clean, naturally raised food that is
                compatible with their heredity. A well balanced diet including meat can
                be very healthy, if that is what an individuals body needs. If one has
                a different heredity than me, of course their body is a bit different.
                This is why all blood work comes with ranges that are good, not exact
                numbers, our bodies are not exactly the same.

                Bright Blessings,
                Kim

                robin wrote:
                >
                >> i think what fukuoka-san is trying to say is in order to raise natural
                > chickens or other fowl, they should not be confined in any way. in
                > fact, he wrote
                >
                > "if poultry and livestock are to truly benefit man, they must be
                > capable of feeding and fending for themselves under the open sky. only
                > then will food become naturally plentiful and contribute to man's
                > well-being".
                >
                > fukuoka-san had chickens and ducks and let them grow up among the
                > vegetables
                > and grains and revert back to half-wild. when he could no longer keep
                > them in that way because of a highway, he stopped keeping them.
                >
                > in regard to meat-eating, fukuoka-san wrote of an application his
                > friend george ohsawaw had worked out;
                >
                > "meat is yang and vegetables yin, with grains in between. because man
                > is an omnivorous animal that is yang, this leads to a set of
                > principles which says that, when grains, which are intermediate, are
                > eaten as the staple, yin vegetables should be consumed and meat (very
                > yang)--consumption of which is essentially cannabalism--should be
                > avoided."
                >
                > yet fukuoka-san was more tolerant and neutral than that. although
                > completely or mainly
                > vegetarian himself, he did not delve into scientific analysis about
                > it, considering such an analysis pointed away from non-active nature
                > and into discriminating knowledge. i guess that's my cue to follow his
                > lead.
                >
                > ***robin***
                >
                > p.s.after all my words going on and on i found a quote that says it all;
                >
                > find the shortest, simplest way between the earth, the hands, and the
                > mouth.---lanza del vasto
                >
                >
                >
              • Dieter Brand
                Nobody needs to make excuses for including meat in his or her diet. But I don t believe that heredity or the dietary habits of one s ancestors necessarily
                Message 7 of 24 , Feb 2, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Nobody needs to make excuses for including meat in his or
                  her diet. But I don't believe that heredity or the dietary habits
                  of one's ancestors necessarily serve to define good life style
                  patterns for the present or future.

                  What is significant in the life style of primitive man/woman
                  on this planet is not that he/she also ate meat but that they
                  didn't eat anything at all for extended periods of time. And
                  when a sumptuous meal could be consumed this was done
                  at the expense of a considerable amount of physical labour.
                  Today, that has dramatically changed, and our dietary habits
                  have to change accordingly. The sedentary office worker can
                  without any labour at all stuff him/her-self with big chunks of
                  meat from morning till evening. And I have seen too many
                  overweight men that didn't make it passed their 50th birthday.

                  If we feel a desire to eat meat, that is not necessarily because
                  our body sends us subtle messages regarding it's nutritional
                  needs, that is more often than not on the same level as the craving
                  for the next cigarette or a bar of chocolate. Now, I hope nobody
                  will claim that his/her ancestors lived primarily on chocolate.

                  Dieter Brand
                  Portugal

                  Garth & Kim Travis <gartht@...> wrote:
                  Greetings,
                  You bring up many good points, and I wish I could just let my animals
                  run, but then they would be in the county lock up, not running free. We
                  have too many people and all the land is owned. We also have neighbors
                  that think it is funny when their animals kill yours. Stupid man,
                  didn't think his dogs would kill his own calves when they were born. I
                  feel sorry for all his animals, especially his dogs.

                  I know many people that raise animals for consumption that are doing it
                  for the same reasons I do, and in much the same way. We go as natural
                  as possible in a confused world, with strange laws.

                  While I respect Fukuoka-san, he was Oriental. His heredity was very
                  different from mine, we all not all the same. His pancreas was probably
                  twice the size of mine, if our bodies were the same size, due to
                  hereditary diet. I am aware than many people do very well on a
                  vegetarian diet, and some on a vegan diet provided they take their pills
                  for the B vitamins. [I think that is the right one.] I don't eat meat
                  at every meal, I never sit down to a 16 ounce steak or any other overly
                  done nonsense. I do eat meat most days, or animal protein. For my body
                  type, this is good for me and I am much healthier for it. But my
                  ancestors lived on a diet that was mostly animal protein. My snacks and
                  at least 2/3 of my meals are vegetables, grains and fruit. I do not
                  eat processed food at all.

                  I would urge people to eat clean, naturally raised food that is
                  compatible with their heredity. A well balanced diet including meat can
                  be very healthy, if that is what an individuals body needs. If one has
                  a different heredity than me, of course their body is a bit different.
                  This is why all blood work comes with ranges that are good, not exact
                  numbers, our bodies are not exactly the same.

                  Bright Blessings,
                  Kim

                  robin wrote:
                  >
                  >> i think what fukuoka-san is trying to say is in order to raise natural
                  > chickens or other fowl, they should not be confined in any way. in
                  > fact, he wrote
                  >
                  > "if poultry and livestock are to truly benefit man, they must be
                  > capable of feeding and fending for themselves under the open sky. only
                  > then will food become naturally plentiful and contribute to man's
                  > well-being".
                  >
                  > fukuoka-san had chickens and ducks and let them grow up among the
                  > vegetables
                  > and grains and revert back to half-wild. when he could no longer keep
                  > them in that way because of a highway, he stopped keeping them.
                  >
                  > in regard to meat-eating, fukuoka-san wrote of an application his
                  > friend george ohsawaw had worked out;
                  >
                  > "meat is yang and vegetables yin, with grains in between. because man
                  > is an omnivorous animal that is yang, this leads to a set of
                  > principles which says that, when grains, which are intermediate, are
                  > eaten as the staple, yin vegetables should be consumed and meat (very
                  > yang)--consumption of which is essentially cannabalism--should be
                  > avoided."
                  >
                  > yet fukuoka-san was more tolerant and neutral than that. although
                  > completely or mainly
                  > vegetarian himself, he did not delve into scientific analysis about
                  > it, considering such an analysis pointed away from non-active nature
                  > and into discriminating knowledge. i guess that's my cue to follow his
                  > lead.
                  >
                  > ***robin***
                  >
                  > p.s.after all my words going on and on i found a quote that says it all;
                  >
                  > find the shortest, simplest way between the earth, the hands, and the
                  > mouth.---lanza del vasto
                  >
                  >
                  >





                  ---------------------------------
                  Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • basjoos
                  ... In One Straw Revolution , Fukuoka-san mentions that Japanese farmers used to keep a breed of chicken that was safe to keep in the vegetable garden. It
                  Message 8 of 24 , Apr 27, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ben Weiss" <bazzrad@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > My understanding of chickens in a natural system is incredibly basic!
                    > Can you recommend to me any specific breeds that are good for a
                    > garden? How can I prevent the chickens from eating our produce? I
                    > just read briefly about creating a "forage garden" for the chickens...
                    > know anything about this? Should they have a specific enclosure and be
                    > released at certain times? Any advice on a good egg-laying breed?... a
                    > low-maintenance breed?
                    >
                    > Thanks!
                    > Ben
                    >

                    In "One Straw Revolution", Fukuoka-san mentions that Japanese farmers
                    used to keep a breed of chicken that was safe to keep in the vegetable
                    garden. It would eat the insects and leave the crop plants alone. I'm
                    wondering if this breed was the "shamo" chickens that he had running
                    loose in his orchard/vegetable garden. The shamo is a very small
                    bantam chicken.

                    In the book "Farmers of Fourty Centuries" where the author describes
                    the agricultural system in China circa 1900 (a very good read if you
                    are into composting, as he describes the techniques used by the Chinese
                    to keep their fields fertile after up to 4000 years of cultivation), he
                    mentions that the sheep, goats, and cattle in the parts of China that
                    he visited (the densely populated coastal regions) don't eat the crop
                    plants even if they get pushed off the narrow paths and into a crop
                    field by other traffic and confine their grazing to grasses and plants
                    in non-crop fields. I suspect this behavior is the result of centuries
                    of culling those animals that would help themselves to the crop when
                    given the opportunity. So it may also be true that Chinese chicken and
                    duck breeds have this trait (if they haven't been kept and non-
                    selectively bred in this country for long enough to have lost it).

                    It might be worthwhile testing some Japanese chicken breeds such as
                    shamo, kurokashiwa, and tomaru, and Chinese breeds such as langshan,
                    brahma, and nanking, to see if they show a propensity toward eating
                    vegetable plants if given the opportunity.
                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.