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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Fukuokan Dogmatism

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  • Jamie Nicol
    Dear Robin, you write: you are suppressed from mentioning certain subjects, you may feel forced to start speaking in a sort of coded estoteric doublespeak, to
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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      Dear Robin, you write: "you are suppressed from mentioning certain subjects,
      you may feel forced to start speaking in a sort of coded estoteric
      doublespeak, to attempt to get your points across".

      I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum for mentioning those
      things that Fukuoka stated clearly were the inspiration for his NF. However,
      the esoteric doublespeak is just the latest way I am trying to express the
      inexpressible in Fukuoka. Paradox can be annoying, but it can also be
      effective. Other possible forms of expression would include irony (I have
      gone this way before!!!), tautology and poetry.

      I realised some time ago that with regard to Fukuoka there were those who
      already understood, those who had not yet understood and those who will
      never understand. I try to write for the second group of people...


      Why is there not nothing?

      Why is there something?

      Each day the sun

      Rain swells earth and river

      Warm sea spreads mist deep inland

      Wind sculpts tree

      How can it be?



      Listen, look, smell: This is life!

      How?



      Wind moves the grass,

      Cloud builds to the West,

      Rain lashes the fields,

      A bird sings from the tree,

      Offspring of sun.


      This broken, inferior shard,
      Unworthy sun, dis-several star,
      Spun off cold, to become earth...

      Jamie
      Mas Franch and Souscayrous


      On 1/5/08, robin <witchessocks@...> wrote:
      >
      > exerpt from"the road back to nature";
      >
      > "let me return a bit to my visit in vienna, where i stayed before
      > going on to italy. a little incident occurred during a talk i gave
      > there. the lecture had been hastily arranged and it was thought that
      > only about three hundred people would show up. but as we were
      > beginning, people continued to arrive and it became clear that not
      > everyone would be able to get in, so the lecture was postponed for
      > thirty minutes and the location moved to a larger hall. it turned out
      > to be quite an emotionally charged meeting.
      >
      > ten to twenty minutes after i'd begun talking, one young man stood up.
      > "i came here to learn about natural farming," he said."but all you're
      > talking about is western philosophy." this is the same kind of thing
      > that young people tell me in japan.
      >
      > i had started talking about philosophy because, when i arrived in
      > vienna and saw all the churches there and when i looked out at the
      > audience and saw that they all had the faces of musicians, it just
      > seemed to be a good way to start off my lecture. i saw almost no one
      > in the audience who looked like a farmer; they all looked like
      > townspeople to me. that's why i began by saying: "austria is beautiful
      > but a land of spurious green. this is a country of cattle and grapes.
      > the agriculture here arose to produce meat and wine. this is not
      > farming for the natural earth: it is an agriculture for the royalty
      > and clergy. that is why the earth is poor and barren today. if
      > agriculture takes a wrong turn, then culture also goes awry. this
      > mistake began with descartes. such destruction is the penalty for the
      > crime of thinking that nature exists because man exists and of
      > sacrificing nature for man."
      >
      > then, in the middle of this, someone stands up and hands me a wallop:
      > "i came to hear you talk about natural farming, not philosophy." this
      > infuriated me, but it also spurred me on. i launched into a harangue.
      >
      > "you may say that but do you intend right now to practice natural
      > farming, and are you able to? speaking from thirty years of personal
      > experience in japan, not even a single farmer in my immediate
      > neighborhood practices natural farming. do you know why? there's a
      > reason for this. even if you yourself intend to go into natural
      > farming, do you think the consumers in the towns and cities will buy
      > crooked eggplants and vegetables full of insects? if the people of
      > vienna don't understand, you won't be able to support yourself. one
      > individual may think of practicing natural farming but it's not
      > something you can do right away in a field. in order to change the
      > farming practices of a single farmer, the entire social fabric must
      > change. natural farming is not simply a question of agriculture. it is
      > a problem that concerns politics, economics and people's way's of
      > thinking and living. it concerns everyone-consumers in the cities and
      > farmers alike. that's why to reform one thing, everything has to be
      > changed. did the chicken come first or the egg? well, the key to
      > changing everything at once lies in philosophy. if one thing changes,
      > everything changes. unless all things change, nothing changes. if the
      > philosophy of all the people of the world doesn't change, if the
      > thinking of the people of vienna doesn't change, then no one will be
      > able to practice natural farming. unless all the problems are solved,
      > not even one thing can be done. the methods described in "the one
      > straw revolution" can resolve all the agricultural problems, but
      > unless reform occurs in all areas-western philosophy, thought, and
      > religion-even so simple a thing as this cannot be done. no one will be
      > able or willing to practice even such an easy method of farming as
      > this.***masanobu fukuoka
      >
      > ***i recently received a copy of Fukuoka's book "the road back to
      > nature" via interlibrary loan. this particular copy is from the
      > university of d.c.;1987, published by japan publications,inc. this
      > book has a preface to english edition, and a preface to japanese
      > edition. very lovely book, though somewhat plain on the outside.
      >
      > just happened to be reading this book and the above passage struck me as
      > somewhat relevant to the discussions.***robin
      > p.s. it's really really hard to discuss fukuokan natural farming when
      > you are not allowed to really open up and discuss what fukuoka-san's
      > motivations for natural farming were and are. when you are suppressed
      > from mentioning certain subjects, you may feel forced to start
      > speaking in a sort of coded estoteric doublespeak, to attempt to get
      > your points across, not always liking rigid rules made up by others.
      > we may have all experienced this, at certain times. it's darn
      > annoying, though!--but necessary, i suppose????? but-- i enjoy
      > reading the philosophy discussions, along with the practical
      > agricultural discussions also...and i suspect others on this list also
      > enjoy all aspects of discussion, thank you all very much!
      >
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > chris opler <chrisopler@...>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > 'Jacke and Toensmeier give this in a nutshell: "Create a stable,
      > resilient garden ecosystem, driven by solar energy, that largely
      > maintains and renews itself" (page 46, Vol. 1, Edible Forest Gardens).
      > >
      > > That seems to be to be as Fukuokan as anything in Fukuoka. '
      > >
      > > The very core of Fukuoka's green philosophy is that it is not the
      > human hand that 'creates', but Nature/God itself. Nature/God/Man[sic]
      > are all ONE, the same. The duality of man/nature founded in western
      > materialist has lead to human's attempt to engineer and recreate
      > nature, which for Fukuoka is quite possibly the destruction of our
      > Earth.
      > >
      > > I think Fukuoka might offer this perspective as an approach: 'When
      > you expirement with nature, nine times out of ten, things don't work
      > out as you expect. If you fail completely, that means that your
      > expectations are out of line with reality. The expirement teaches you
      > something totally unexpected, something new and imortant. That is
      > why when I encountered the sort of total failure that had those around
      > me rocking with laughter, far from being dismayed, I was able to
      > chuckle to myself and enjoy it. I have put very little of what could
      > be called serious effort into any research. Instead of I have tried
      > as best I could not to do anything and to watch closely how I fail.
      > All I have really done is to sow seed.'
      > >
      > > I am not a farmer (though I hope to be a Natural Farmer one day)
      > either, and one might try to use this to say 'well, thats all well and
      > good, but he has never grown anything at all and he can't possibly
      > know what it is to farm'. And I would say, the point is that I don't
      > have to know, Nature is already perfect.
      > >
      > > Or, one might say, well thats just philosophy, religion,
      > hocus-pocus, and it very well might be. Another perspective is that
      > its helicopter thinking that allows the natural farmer to reach the
      > mountain top with no effort at all.
      > >
      > > And, so it might seem to some of you that I am in the camp of
      > Fukuoka dogmatists and use this to dismiss what I have said.
      > Do-nothing and every lying underneath really 'is' the central theme of
      > his writings and thus really what Natural Farming, from Fukuoka's
      > perspective, is about. I choose to believe that this is its singular
      > beauty and transformative power. Others of us may be focus on the
      > methods of no-till, no fertiliser, no pesticides and no-pruning.
      > >
      > > Personally, I am here to read all of you. Thank you *all* profoundly
      > for all of the insights you have shared.
      > >
      > > Chris
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > __________________________________________________________
      >
      > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers
      > Yahoo! Mail http://mail.yahoo.fr
      > >
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dieter Brand
      ... Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn t it Idéfix le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don t
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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        > I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum ...

        Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn't it Idéfix
        le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out
        his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don't listen to them.

        Lets not take this all too serious.

        Dieter



        ---------------------------------
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      • Dieter Brand
        ... Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn t it Idéfix le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don t
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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          > I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum ...

          Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn't it Idéfix
          le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out
          his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don't listen to them.

          Lets not take this all too seriously.

          Dieter



          ---------------------------------
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • robin
          ***thank you so much, you can see/will see how clumsy i am with words. i will try to be understandable; i am not annoyed with your beautiful expressions, and
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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            ***thank you so much, you can see/will see how clumsy i am with words. i
            will try to be understandable; i am not annoyed with your beautiful
            expressions, and "coded esoteric doublespeak" was a poor choice of
            phrase, i didn't mean for it to be derogatory...except for maybe when
            I do it...ha. i enjoy so much your poetry and word-play, jamie...and
            your courage to come on here and say them when you many times get
            slapped down for doing so... at these times i become a little frantic
            that you might become disallusioned with the group and leave for good.

            at the same time i can understand why there is a rule for this group
            to control ourselves from delving too deeply into discussions about
            the existence and nature of god...people may get overexcited and
            become too dogmatic, turning people off and causing or contributing to
            quarrels. limits do help to channel discussions into positive streams,
            instead of the instant flood erosion of overchoice (huh? did i just
            say that? weird!... oh, what the hay...you see what i mean when i say
            flood erosion-it could be called "diarrea of the mouth", to put it
            crudely...yikes, can't stop). as my brother would say, "edit,edit,
            edit... ha!

            i appreciate the creativity with which those who do understand can
            express "God" without uttering the word "God". those are the limits
            which keep us disciplined and self-controlled. i seem not to have that
            gift of beautiful linguistic expression that originates within my own
            self, and i feel suppressed and annoyed by that... i shouldn't blame
            the rules, or others; there is, of course, an infinite number of ways
            to express my feelings of "God" without naming "God" but i am
            incapable of doing this effectively...

            all i see that i can do is read the words of fukuoka-san and quote him
            here on this list...i can't even improve on them..as i am reading his
            words i feel i do understand... but now i understand that i am
            incapable of understanding. or that i understood once, but now i don't
            anymore...but i yearn for understanding, just as i think fukuoka-san
            did; i feel somewhat like a bruised-up angel...i saw heaven (or nature
            or god) once but i fell/fall back to ego by my own repetitive
            rejection of god-that is what gives rise to my frustrations, feelings
            of "oh, what's the use of explaining anything". it's already explained
            there and i will just set it down here for folks who do not have the
            copy of the book, to read and ponder...

            for example, when the discussion turns to "how to feed the people" i
            want to reply, as fukuoka did, quoting jesus, "man doesn't live by
            bread alone". but then i am afraid that this phrase has too many
            religious connotations, so i didn't say anything, even though
            fukuoka-san said it-quoted jesus. so it's hard to say the equivalent
            to "man doesn't live by bread alone" by making up a new way of saying
            it that doesn't connote or "name the nameless name"...i appreciate
            those who can do it; i'm frustrated by my lack of skills to do so. i
            hope it is acceptable to quote Fukuoka-san speaking of God, as he does
            here:***

            (preface to japanese edition)

            "this book is an attempt to paint a true picture of God, nature and
            man. such an ambitious venture is beyond the powers of a slow-witted
            farmer. yet, well aware as i am of this, there is a reason why i have
            chosen to write this juvenile book. one day, while still a young man,
            i suddenly saw the totality of God.

            i have never revealed this before. why do i here spit out these words
            which for almost fifty years i have kept hidden in my heart? there is
            more to my reluctance than mere hesitation. no, i have ordinarily
            sought at all costs to avoid uttering the word God. this is because i
            knew that man is incapable of speaking about God, or of understanding
            or believing in God. yet now, i deliberately break this personal taboo
            as, with intense remorse, i dare to say "God" and await divine judgment".

            ***in the future i'll tr-try to refrain from bringing in religion to
            these discussions. just know that whatever i might say, i really mean
            i yearn for and want to attract God to me and desire communion with
            God.***

            fukuoka-san;

            "what i want to say is God did not create heaven, earth, and the
            cosmos. rather, when the earth was born and the meadow flowers
            bloomed, the butterflies fluttered about, and the birds sang, God came
            of his own choosing to dwell there.
            "instead of praying to God as a mighty power that reigns over the
            heavens, man should have frolicked innocently with this wonderful
            sprite, this angel inhabiting the fields. that was the shortest road
            back to nature and at once the Great Way back to the side of God".

            "natural farming is possible".

            "god in all ages appears as a discontinuous continuum. natural farming
            too, since antiquity, may have arisen and vasnished and risen again to
            flourish. natural farming is one of the spiritual lights that must be
            kept burning throughtout the night. in this age in which we live, it
            is possible that if this light dies out, it may never burn again".

            "god has left man to his own devices: he has abandoned man. if man
            does not save himself, no one will do this for him".

            look how beautiful, the flowers of the earth!
            this is the land where live the gods;
            a perfect, faultless. natural patadise.

            now in the deep slumber of spring in my eden,
            i dream a private dream of returning to nature.
            here there is nothing that must be done; no effort is required, not
            even courage.

            but no one even bothers to look back.
            will the road to nature fade again
            into the mists?

            ***i hope i didn't take these quotes out of context..the above
            introspection is not intended as a "stop thought" thing, or stop the
            discussion of practical agricultural aspects of natural farming...they
            are just some thoughts, while nature is a bit frozen and dormant
            right now in january,
            outside my window...
            ... can't wait for spring.***robin







            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol"
            <souscayrous@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Robin, you write: "you are suppressed from mentioning certain
            subjects,
            > you may feel forced to start speaking in a sort of coded estoteric
            > doublespeak, to attempt to get your points across".
            >
            > I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum for
            mentioning those
            > things that Fukuoka stated clearly were the inspiration for his NF.
            However,
            > the esoteric doublespeak is just the latest way I am trying to
            express the
            > inexpressible in Fukuoka. Paradox can be annoying, but it can also be
            > effective. Other possible forms of expression would include irony (I
            have
            > gone this way before!!!), tautology and poetry.
            >
            > I realised some time ago that with regard to Fukuoka there were
            those who
            > already understood, those who had not yet understood and those who will
            > never understand. I try to write for the second group of people...
            >
            >
            > Why is there not nothing?
            >
            > Why is there something?
            >
            > Each day the sun
            >
            > Rain swells earth and river
            >
            > Warm sea spreads mist deep inland
            >
            > Wind sculpts tree
            >
            > How can it be?
            >
            >
            >
            > Listen, look, smell: This is life!
            >
            > How?
            >
            >
            >
            > Wind moves the grass,
            >
            > Cloud builds to the West,
            >
            > Rain lashes the fields,
            >
            > A bird sings from the tree,
            >
            > Offspring of sun.
            >
            >
            > This broken, inferior shard,
            > Unworthy sun, dis-several star,
            > Spun off cold, to become earth...
            >
            > Jamie
            > Mas Franch and Souscayrous
            >
            >
          • macropneuma
            Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic. Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by the Australian indigenous peoples and
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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              Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic.

              Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by the Australian indigenous
              peoples' and Fukuoka's natural farming traditions, also Raju's great example herein, but
              myself i'm not of their calibre at all. i don't follow at all the babylon-system 'western
              agriculture' traditions, and in the 'western' system i'm an ecologist, and computer mapping
              GIS professional.
              So folks remind yourselves about outside of this group's writing, that the real and worst
              and very serious farming-dogma is in the pinnacle-of-conventional-agriculture from the
              'western' babylon-system here in Australia, in the USA, in the EU. My conventional
              agriculture-neighbours have so much pressure on them and they apply to others including
              me, to conform to obscene-levels of dogma (examples from my farmer neighbours who
              are friends with me):
              -burn all limbs of trees that fall off into paddocks from remnant forest trees, within days,
              or the district farmers despise you having a "mess" of a farm, not to mention felling and
              burning any trees that die as a whole.
              -plow every year at least once, to "loosen up the soil", "turn under weeds", "open up the
              soil for rain", etc.
              -graze the paddocks down (to near bare dirt), at all times, to remove wildfire-fuel-grass.
              -get up early, like 4-5am, every day of the year, including christmass day and all holidays,
              if not for milking dairy cows, then to start work on the paddocks & fields, which continues
              with a lunch break until 6-7pm every night, if not doing this then one is despised as not
              being a real farmer -i semantically read that as masochist. Involves, driving the tractor or
              4 wheel bike over the whole property (eg. 600 acres) inspecting every place inside the
              boundary fence every single day, hand pulling some "weeds", spraying other weeds,
              watering with massive sprinklers which pump out of the river -drying it up, etc.
              -lastly, "living off the land" - if one doesn't have a large, many 100s of acres, farm (eg.
              mine is 30 acres), and earn all of ones income from ones farm land, then one is not a real
              farmer, and is just a "hobby-farmer", mucking & messing around, not serious, and not to
              be listened to on the topic of farming, -'all that hobby farm exists because it is subsidised
              from outside-income'

              Nowadays, i have long ago resisted and overcome that sort of fear, loathing, ignorance,
              folly, anxiety, and absurd conformity, in my district and with most of my neighbourhood
              farmers.
              Make no mistake, though, this is the extremity of dogma. And it has been that way in the
              'western' babylon-system tradition of farming/agriculture for 1000s of years.

              Fukuoka-sensei uses philosophy as the basis for demolishing dogmas, that the (one)
              importance of philosophy.
              Without critical-thinking or critical-philosophy all is just dogmatic "he said this, he said
              that, she said this and this other person said this" hearsay of the sort that the most
              brutal, dogmatic, loudest, and lowest-common-denominator 'wins'. When really all such is
              just hearsay without critical thinking, without real understanding, without philosophical
              understanding, and without history or any repeated (non-circumstantial) evidence.
              Fukuoka-sensei has hit the bullseye, and if some us fail to see or recognise that bullseye,
              then we must look again until we do (haha :) that the 'dogma-like' way i put it here, and
              only one 'dogma-like' think i'd say here, on this FUKUOKA_FARMING group)
              Fukuoka-sensei is all about critical-philosophy-based pluralism, counter-dogma, a-
              conformity (my word, like the sense of a in amoral) to human-in-isolation-alienation-from-
              the-rest-of-nature thinking, and intergrating life with the rest of nature (not quite
              conforming with), in my humble opinion.
              This is so rewarding, if you haven't found this reward yet the look & read again and again
              until you do.

              Loving kindness to all.
            • Adin Sh
              Dear macropneuma, You have described very well the extremes the modern farmers had drove themselves to. But every stick has two ends. The other extreme is to
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 6, 2008
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                Dear macropneuma,

                You have described very well the extremes the modern farmers had drove themselves to.
                But every stick has two ends.
                The other extreme is to become a staunch devotee of some philosophy that completely denies the first extreme and peacefully watch how ants,sparrows and weeds turn your garden into a wild prairie...
                Then our devotee stands up and decides to go to supermarket to buy some rice,flour and cow milk and butter. Why not, he is hungry!
                It seems that no-till may be one of the golden path methods that are a compromise of the two extremes.
                Thanks to Raju Titus for a nice pictures!
                Regards!

                macropneuma <macropneuma@...> wrote:
                Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic.

                Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by the Australian indigenous
                peoples' and Fukuoka's natural farming traditions, also Raju's great example herein, but
                myself i'm not of their calibre at all. i don't follow at all the babylon-system 'western
                agriculture' traditions, and in the 'western' system i'm an ecologist, and computer mapping
                GIS professional.
                So folks remind yourselves about outside of this group's writing, that the real and worst
                and very serious farming-dogma is in the pinnacle-of-conventional-agriculture from the
                'western' babylon-system here in Australia, in the USA, in the EU. My conventional
                agriculture-neighbours have so much pressure on them and they apply to others including
                me, to conform to obscene-levels of dogma (examples from my farmer neighbours who
                are friends with me):
                -burn all limbs of trees that fall off into paddocks from remnant forest trees, within days,
                or the district farmers despise you having a "mess" of a farm, not to mention felling and
                burning any trees that die as a whole.
                -plow every year at least once, to "loosen up the soil", "turn under weeds", "open up the
                soil for rain", etc.
                -graze the paddocks down (to near bare dirt), at all times, to remove wildfire-fuel-grass.
                -get up early, like 4-5am, every day of the year, including christmass day and all holidays,
                if not for milking dairy cows, then to start work on the paddocks & fields, which continues
                with a lunch break until 6-7pm every night, if not doing this then one is despised as not
                being a real farmer -i semantically read that as masochist. Involves, driving the tractor or
                4 wheel bike over the whole property (eg. 600 acres) inspecting every place inside the
                boundary fence every single day, hand pulling some "weeds", spraying other weeds,
                watering with massive sprinklers which pump out of the river -drying it up, etc.
                -lastly, "living off the land" - if one doesn't have a large, many 100s of acres, farm (eg.
                mine is 30 acres), and earn all of ones income from ones farm land, then one is not a real
                farmer, and is just a "hobby-farmer", mucking & messing around, not serious, and not to
                be listened to on the topic of farming, -'all that hobby farm exists because it is subsidised
                from outside-income'

                Nowadays, i have long ago resisted and overcome that sort of fear, loathing, ignorance,
                folly, anxiety, and absurd conformity, in my district and with most of my neighbourhood
                farmers.
                Make no mistake, though, this is the extremity of dogma. And it has been that way in the
                'western' babylon-system tradition of farming/agriculture for 1000s of years.

                Fukuoka-sensei uses philosophy as the basis for demolishing dogmas, that the (one)
                importance of philosophy.
                Without critical-thinking or critical-philosophy all is just dogmatic "he said this, he said
                that, she said this and this other person said this" hearsay of the sort that the most
                brutal, dogmatic, loudest, and lowest-common-denominator 'wins'. When really all such is
                just hearsay without critical thinking, without real understanding, without philosophical
                understanding, and without history or any repeated (non-circumstantial) evidence.
                Fukuoka-sensei has hit the bullseye, and if some us fail to see or recognise that bullseye,
                then we must look again until we do (haha :) that the 'dogma-like' way i put it here, and
                only one 'dogma-like' think i'd say here, on this FUKUOKA_FARMING group)
                Fukuoka-sensei is all about critical-philosophy-based pluralism, counter-dogma, a-
                conformity (my word, like the sense of a in amoral) to human-in-isolation-alienation-from-
                the-rest-of-nature thinking, and intergrating life with the rest of nature (not quite
                conforming with), in my humble opinion.
                This is so rewarding, if you haven't found this reward yet the look & read again and again
                until you do.

                Loving kindness to all.






                ---------------------------------
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              • macropneuma
                Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic. Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by Australian indigenous peoples and
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 7, 2008
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                  Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic.

                  Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by
                  Australian indigenous peoples' and Fukuoka's natural farming,
                  traditions, also by Raju's great example herein, but myself i'm not
                  of their calibre at all.
                  i don't follow at all the babylon-system - 'western agriculture'
                  traditions, and in the 'western' system i'm an ecologist, and
                  computer mapping GIS professional.

                  So folks remind yourselves about outside of this group's writing,
                  that the real, worst and very serious farming-dogma is in the
                  pinnacle-of-conventional-agriculture from the 'western' babylon-
                  system, here in Australia, in the USA, in the EU, in some parts of
                  the middle-east, etc.
                  My conventional-agriculture-neighbours have so much pressure on them
                  and they apply it to other-people including me, to conform to obscene-
                  levels of dogma.
                  Here are some minor examples from my farmer neighbours who are
                  friends with me (there are much more major examples of *need*less
                  conformity in the babylon-system - 'western agriculture' traditions
                  generally -in the wider-world than in my district here in SE
                  Australia):
                  -burn all limbs of trees within days that fall off into paddocks from
                  remnant forest trees, or the district farmers despise you as
                  having a "mess" of a farm, not to mention felling and burning any
                  trees that die as a whole.
                  -plow every year at least once, to "loosen up the soil", "turn under
                  weeds", "open up the soil for rain", etc.
                  -graze the paddocks down (to near bare dirt), at all times, to remove
                  wildfire-fuel-grass. This includes within cropping areas at all times
                  that the crop is not vulnerable to damage by the grazers, eg. corn
                  crops, when the corn is already grown big and woody-like but without
                  cobs or well developed flowers yet, and immediately after harvesting
                  the cobs it is intensively grazed.
                  -get up early, like 4-5am, every day of the year, including
                  christmass day and all holidays, if not for milking dairy cows, then
                  to start by working on the paddocks & fields. Hard work continues
                  with a lunch break until 6-7pm every night.
                  If ones is not doing this then one is despised as not being a real
                  farmer -i read that semantically as their masochism. Work includes,
                  driving the tractor or 4 wheel bike over the whole property (eg. 600
                  acres) inspecting every place inside the boundary fence every single
                  day, hand pulling some "weeds", spraying other weeds, watering with
                  massive sprinklers which pump out of the river -drying it up, etc.
                  Lastly
                  -"living off the land" - if one doesn't have a large farm of many
                  100s of acres (eg. mine is 30 acres), and earn all of ones income
                  from ones farm land, then one is not a real farmer, and is just
                  a "hobby-farmer", mucking & messing around, not serious, and not to
                  be listened to on the topic of farming, -paraphrasing: 'all of that
                  [your] hobby farm exists because it is subsidised from outside-
                  income!'

                  Nowadays, i have long ago resisted and overcome that sort of fear,
                  loathing, ignorance, folly, anxiety, and absurd conformity, in my
                  district and with most of my district (neighbour) farmers.

                  Make no mistake, though, this is the extremity of dogma. And it has
                  been that way in the 'western' babylon-system tradition of
                  farming/agriculture for thousands of years.

                  Fukuoka-sensei uses philosophy as the basis for demolishing dogmas,
                  that's (one of the) the importance of philosophy.
                  Without critical-thinking or critical-philosophy all is just
                  dogmatic -"he said this, he said that", "she said this" and "this
                  other person said this"- hearsay, of the sort that the most
                  brutal, dogmatic, loudest, and lowest-common-denominator 'wins'. When
                  really all such-like is just hearsay without critical thinking,
                  without real understanding, without philosophical understanding, and
                  without history or any repeated (non-circumstantial) evidence.

                  Fukuoka-sensei has hit the bullseye, and if some us fail to see or
                  recognise that bullseye, then we must look again until we do.
                  (haha :) that is the 'dogma-like' way that i put it here, and
                  the only one 'dogma-like' words i'd say here. On this FUKUOKA_FARMING
                  group! ie. the bleeding obvious.)
                  Fukuoka-sensei is all about critical-philosophy-based pluralism,
                  counter-dogma, a-conformity (my word, like the sense of a~ in amoral)
                  to the thinking of human(ity) in isolation &/or alienation from the
                  rest of nature, and integrating (ones) life with the rest of nature
                  (not quite conforming with it) - in my humble opinion.
                  This is so rewarding, if you haven't found this reward yet, then look
                  & read again and again until you do.

                  Loving kindness to all.
                  [Many spelling errors, arising the original of this above having been
                  typed directly on my handheld, have now been corrected, on the big
                  desktop PC at the library - sorry folks for how difficult some of it
                  was to read.]
                • JSENT
                  Then our devotee stands up and decides to go to supermarket to buy some rice,flour and cow milk and butter. Why not, he is hungry! A wild landscape provides
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 8, 2008
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                    "Then our devotee stands up and decides to go to supermarket to buy some rice,flour and cow milk and butter. Why not, he is hungry!"

                    A wild landscape provides food too. Perhaps the devotee is hungry AND conditioned to industrialized fare (like myself). One year I rented land that was tilled each year for many years. The year I rented it was its first fallow year in the owner's memory. This annually tilled and sprayed land which had always grown food, not for people, but livestock, sent up plants on every square foot, a majority of them edible for humans. And this edible fare changed through the seasons. I added many to my offerings at the farmer's market, especially the spring greens. The owner was unhappy with the overgrowth but was pleased when hunters approached her to rent it after my time was up. It had become a great habitat for small game. Now it is back to tilled farmland and the hunters are unhappy but the farmer should be glad to have rested land with a lot of organic matter turned back.

                    This may be exceptional land here in the grand prairie but this is an example of how our approach to what is considered food can affect our method of producing it. What food will the land grow without tilling it?

                    cheers, jake
                    grandprairiefood.com


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