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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Fukuokan Dogmatism

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  • Dieter Brand
    Thanks to you all, dogmatists and pragmatists alike, good discussion. I guess that could have been me, getting up Fukuoka s nose, had I been there in Vienna.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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      Thanks to you all, dogmatists and pragmatists alike, good
      discussion.

      I guess that could have been me, getting up Fukuoka's nose,
      had I been there in Vienna.

      Sure, the one is all and all is the one, but even the Buddha
      had to eat to keep body and soul together.

      And who would dispute that it's nature that grows our food,
      but humans still need to practice agriculture to take their
      share, after all they are also part of nature.

      Robin, why can't you speak up? If it is something I said,
      I do apologize.

      Chris, what is do-nothing? Is it a tenet in a general system
      of philosophy that will lead you to a state of nirvana? Or is
      it a way of life comprising a series of practical steps starting
      with: do not use pesticides, do not till, do not ... and that
      may be continued ad infinitum according to our abilities and
      the specific local circumstances we encounter?

      Dieter Brand
      Portugal

      robin <witchessocks@...> wrote:
      exerpt from"the road back to nature";

      "let me return a bit to my visit in vienna, where i stayed before
      going on to italy. a little incident occurred during a talk i gave
      there. the lecture had been hastily arranged and it was thought that
      only about three hundred people would show up. but as we were
      beginning, people continued to arrive and it became clear that not
      everyone would be able to get in, so the lecture was postponed for
      thirty minutes and the location moved to a larger hall. it turned out
      to be quite an emotionally charged meeting.

      ten to twenty minutes after i'd begun talking, one young man stood up.
      "i came here to learn about natural farming," he said."but all you're
      talking about is western philosophy." this is the same kind of thing
      that young people tell me in japan.

      i had started talking about philosophy because, when i arrived in
      vienna and saw all the churches there and when i looked out at the
      audience and saw that they all had the faces of musicians, it just
      seemed to be a good way to start off my lecture. i saw almost no one
      in the audience who looked like a farmer; they all looked like
      townspeople to me. that's why i began by saying: "austria is beautiful
      but a land of spurious green. this is a country of cattle and grapes.
      the agriculture here arose to produce meat and wine. this is not
      farming for the natural earth: it is an agriculture for the royalty
      and clergy. that is why the earth is poor and barren today. if
      agriculture takes a wrong turn, then culture also goes awry. this
      mistake began with descartes. such destruction is the penalty for the
      crime of thinking that nature exists because man exists and of
      sacrificing nature for man."

      then, in the middle of this, someone stands up and hands me a wallop:
      "i came to hear you talk about natural farming, not philosophy." this
      infuriated me, but it also spurred me on. i launched into a harangue.

      "you may say that but do you intend right now to practice natural
      farming, and are you able to? speaking from thirty years of personal
      experience in japan, not even a single farmer in my immediate
      neighborhood practices natural farming. do you know why? there's a
      reason for this. even if you yourself intend to go into natural
      farming, do you think the consumers in the towns and cities will buy
      crooked eggplants and vegetables full of insects? if the people of
      vienna don't understand, you won't be able to support yourself. one
      individual may think of practicing natural farming but it's not
      something you can do right away in a field. in order to change the
      farming practices of a single farmer, the entire social fabric must
      change. natural farming is not simply a question of agriculture. it is
      a problem that concerns politics, economics and people's way's of
      thinking and living. it concerns everyone-consumers in the cities and
      farmers alike. that's why to reform one thing, everything has to be
      changed. did the chicken come first or the egg? well, the key to
      changing everything at once lies in philosophy. if one thing changes,
      everything changes. unless all things change, nothing changes. if the
      philosophy of all the people of the world doesn't change, if the
      thinking of the people of vienna doesn't change, then no one will be
      able to practice natural farming. unless all the problems are solved,
      not even one thing can be done. the methods described in "the one
      straw revolution" can resolve all the agricultural problems, but
      unless reform occurs in all areas-western philosophy, thought, and
      religion-even so simple a thing as this cannot be done. no one will be
      able or willing to practice even such an easy method of farming as
      this.***masanobu fukuoka

      ***i recently received a copy of Fukuoka's book "the road back to
      nature" via interlibrary loan. this particular copy is from the
      university of d.c.;1987, published by japan publications,inc. this
      book has a preface to english edition, and a preface to japanese
      edition. very lovely book, though somewhat plain on the outside.

      just happened to be reading this book and the above passage struck me as
      somewhat relevant to the discussions.***robin
      p.s. it's really really hard to discuss fukuokan natural farming when
      you are not allowed to really open up and discuss what fukuoka-san's
      motivations for natural farming were and are. when you are suppressed
      from mentioning certain subjects, you may feel forced to start
      speaking in a sort of coded estoteric doublespeak, to attempt to get
      your points across, not always liking rigid rules made up by others.
      we may have all experienced this, at certain times. it's darn
      annoying, though!--but necessary, i suppose????? but-- i enjoy
      reading the philosophy discussions, along with the practical
      agricultural discussions also...and i suspect others on this list also
      enjoy all aspects of discussion, thank you all very much!

      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, chris opler <chrisopler@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > 'Jacke and Toensmeier give this in a nutshell: "Create a stable,
      resilient garden ecosystem, driven by solar energy, that largely
      maintains and renews itself" (page 46, Vol. 1, Edible Forest Gardens).
      >
      > That seems to be to be as Fukuokan as anything in Fukuoka. '
      >
      > The very core of Fukuoka's green philosophy is that it is not the
      human hand that 'creates', but Nature/God itself. Nature/God/Man[sic]
      are all ONE, the same. The duality of man/nature founded in western
      materialist has lead to human's attempt to engineer and recreate
      nature, which for Fukuoka is quite possibly the destruction of our
      Earth.
      >
      > I think Fukuoka might offer this perspective as an approach: 'When
      you expirement with nature, nine times out of ten, things don't work
      out as you expect. If you fail completely, that means that your
      expectations are out of line with reality. The expirement teaches you
      something totally unexpected, something new and imortant. That is
      why when I encountered the sort of total failure that had those around
      me rocking with laughter, far from being dismayed, I was able to
      chuckle to myself and enjoy it. I have put very little of what could
      be called serious effort into any research. Instead of I have tried
      as best I could not to do anything and to watch closely how I fail.
      All I have really done is to sow seed.'
      >
      > I am not a farmer (though I hope to be a Natural Farmer one day)
      either, and one might try to use this to say 'well, thats all well and
      good, but he has never grown anything at all and he can't possibly
      know what it is to farm'. And I would say, the point is that I don't
      have to know, Nature is already perfect.
      >
      > Or, one might say, well thats just philosophy, religion,
      hocus-pocus, and it very well might be. Another perspective is that
      its helicopter thinking that allows the natural farmer to reach the
      mountain top with no effort at all.
      >
      > And, so it might seem to some of you that I am in the camp of
      Fukuoka dogmatists and use this to dismiss what I have said.
      Do-nothing and every lying underneath really 'is' the central theme of
      his writings and thus really what Natural Farming, from Fukuoka's
      perspective, is about. I choose to believe that this is its singular
      beauty and transformative power. Others of us may be focus on the
      methods of no-till, no fertiliser, no pesticides and no-pruning.
      >
      > Personally, I am here to read all of you. Thank you *all* profoundly
      for all of the insights you have shared.
      >
      > Chris
      >
      >
      >
      __________________________________________________________

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      Yahoo! Mail http://mail.yahoo.fr
      >






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    • Jamie Nicol
      Dear Robin, you write: you are suppressed from mentioning certain subjects, you may feel forced to start speaking in a sort of coded estoteric doublespeak, to
      Message 2 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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        Dear Robin, you write: "you are suppressed from mentioning certain subjects,
        you may feel forced to start speaking in a sort of coded estoteric
        doublespeak, to attempt to get your points across".

        I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum for mentioning those
        things that Fukuoka stated clearly were the inspiration for his NF. However,
        the esoteric doublespeak is just the latest way I am trying to express the
        inexpressible in Fukuoka. Paradox can be annoying, but it can also be
        effective. Other possible forms of expression would include irony (I have
        gone this way before!!!), tautology and poetry.

        I realised some time ago that with regard to Fukuoka there were those who
        already understood, those who had not yet understood and those who will
        never understand. I try to write for the second group of people...


        Why is there not nothing?

        Why is there something?

        Each day the sun

        Rain swells earth and river

        Warm sea spreads mist deep inland

        Wind sculpts tree

        How can it be?



        Listen, look, smell: This is life!

        How?



        Wind moves the grass,

        Cloud builds to the West,

        Rain lashes the fields,

        A bird sings from the tree,

        Offspring of sun.


        This broken, inferior shard,
        Unworthy sun, dis-several star,
        Spun off cold, to become earth...

        Jamie
        Mas Franch and Souscayrous


        On 1/5/08, robin <witchessocks@...> wrote:
        >
        > exerpt from"the road back to nature";
        >
        > "let me return a bit to my visit in vienna, where i stayed before
        > going on to italy. a little incident occurred during a talk i gave
        > there. the lecture had been hastily arranged and it was thought that
        > only about three hundred people would show up. but as we were
        > beginning, people continued to arrive and it became clear that not
        > everyone would be able to get in, so the lecture was postponed for
        > thirty minutes and the location moved to a larger hall. it turned out
        > to be quite an emotionally charged meeting.
        >
        > ten to twenty minutes after i'd begun talking, one young man stood up.
        > "i came here to learn about natural farming," he said."but all you're
        > talking about is western philosophy." this is the same kind of thing
        > that young people tell me in japan.
        >
        > i had started talking about philosophy because, when i arrived in
        > vienna and saw all the churches there and when i looked out at the
        > audience and saw that they all had the faces of musicians, it just
        > seemed to be a good way to start off my lecture. i saw almost no one
        > in the audience who looked like a farmer; they all looked like
        > townspeople to me. that's why i began by saying: "austria is beautiful
        > but a land of spurious green. this is a country of cattle and grapes.
        > the agriculture here arose to produce meat and wine. this is not
        > farming for the natural earth: it is an agriculture for the royalty
        > and clergy. that is why the earth is poor and barren today. if
        > agriculture takes a wrong turn, then culture also goes awry. this
        > mistake began with descartes. such destruction is the penalty for the
        > crime of thinking that nature exists because man exists and of
        > sacrificing nature for man."
        >
        > then, in the middle of this, someone stands up and hands me a wallop:
        > "i came to hear you talk about natural farming, not philosophy." this
        > infuriated me, but it also spurred me on. i launched into a harangue.
        >
        > "you may say that but do you intend right now to practice natural
        > farming, and are you able to? speaking from thirty years of personal
        > experience in japan, not even a single farmer in my immediate
        > neighborhood practices natural farming. do you know why? there's a
        > reason for this. even if you yourself intend to go into natural
        > farming, do you think the consumers in the towns and cities will buy
        > crooked eggplants and vegetables full of insects? if the people of
        > vienna don't understand, you won't be able to support yourself. one
        > individual may think of practicing natural farming but it's not
        > something you can do right away in a field. in order to change the
        > farming practices of a single farmer, the entire social fabric must
        > change. natural farming is not simply a question of agriculture. it is
        > a problem that concerns politics, economics and people's way's of
        > thinking and living. it concerns everyone-consumers in the cities and
        > farmers alike. that's why to reform one thing, everything has to be
        > changed. did the chicken come first or the egg? well, the key to
        > changing everything at once lies in philosophy. if one thing changes,
        > everything changes. unless all things change, nothing changes. if the
        > philosophy of all the people of the world doesn't change, if the
        > thinking of the people of vienna doesn't change, then no one will be
        > able to practice natural farming. unless all the problems are solved,
        > not even one thing can be done. the methods described in "the one
        > straw revolution" can resolve all the agricultural problems, but
        > unless reform occurs in all areas-western philosophy, thought, and
        > religion-even so simple a thing as this cannot be done. no one will be
        > able or willing to practice even such an easy method of farming as
        > this.***masanobu fukuoka
        >
        > ***i recently received a copy of Fukuoka's book "the road back to
        > nature" via interlibrary loan. this particular copy is from the
        > university of d.c.;1987, published by japan publications,inc. this
        > book has a preface to english edition, and a preface to japanese
        > edition. very lovely book, though somewhat plain on the outside.
        >
        > just happened to be reading this book and the above passage struck me as
        > somewhat relevant to the discussions.***robin
        > p.s. it's really really hard to discuss fukuokan natural farming when
        > you are not allowed to really open up and discuss what fukuoka-san's
        > motivations for natural farming were and are. when you are suppressed
        > from mentioning certain subjects, you may feel forced to start
        > speaking in a sort of coded estoteric doublespeak, to attempt to get
        > your points across, not always liking rigid rules made up by others.
        > we may have all experienced this, at certain times. it's darn
        > annoying, though!--but necessary, i suppose????? but-- i enjoy
        > reading the philosophy discussions, along with the practical
        > agricultural discussions also...and i suspect others on this list also
        > enjoy all aspects of discussion, thank you all very much!
        >
        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>,
        > chris opler <chrisopler@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > 'Jacke and Toensmeier give this in a nutshell: "Create a stable,
        > resilient garden ecosystem, driven by solar energy, that largely
        > maintains and renews itself" (page 46, Vol. 1, Edible Forest Gardens).
        > >
        > > That seems to be to be as Fukuokan as anything in Fukuoka. '
        > >
        > > The very core of Fukuoka's green philosophy is that it is not the
        > human hand that 'creates', but Nature/God itself. Nature/God/Man[sic]
        > are all ONE, the same. The duality of man/nature founded in western
        > materialist has lead to human's attempt to engineer and recreate
        > nature, which for Fukuoka is quite possibly the destruction of our
        > Earth.
        > >
        > > I think Fukuoka might offer this perspective as an approach: 'When
        > you expirement with nature, nine times out of ten, things don't work
        > out as you expect. If you fail completely, that means that your
        > expectations are out of line with reality. The expirement teaches you
        > something totally unexpected, something new and imortant. That is
        > why when I encountered the sort of total failure that had those around
        > me rocking with laughter, far from being dismayed, I was able to
        > chuckle to myself and enjoy it. I have put very little of what could
        > be called serious effort into any research. Instead of I have tried
        > as best I could not to do anything and to watch closely how I fail.
        > All I have really done is to sow seed.'
        > >
        > > I am not a farmer (though I hope to be a Natural Farmer one day)
        > either, and one might try to use this to say 'well, thats all well and
        > good, but he has never grown anything at all and he can't possibly
        > know what it is to farm'. And I would say, the point is that I don't
        > have to know, Nature is already perfect.
        > >
        > > Or, one might say, well thats just philosophy, religion,
        > hocus-pocus, and it very well might be. Another perspective is that
        > its helicopter thinking that allows the natural farmer to reach the
        > mountain top with no effort at all.
        > >
        > > And, so it might seem to some of you that I am in the camp of
        > Fukuoka dogmatists and use this to dismiss what I have said.
        > Do-nothing and every lying underneath really 'is' the central theme of
        > his writings and thus really what Natural Farming, from Fukuoka's
        > perspective, is about. I choose to believe that this is its singular
        > beauty and transformative power. Others of us may be focus on the
        > methods of no-till, no fertiliser, no pesticides and no-pruning.
        > >
        > > Personally, I am here to read all of you. Thank you *all* profoundly
        > for all of the insights you have shared.
        > >
        > > Chris
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > __________________________________________________________
        >
        > > Ne gardez plus qu'une seule adresse mail ! Copiez vos mails vers
        > Yahoo! Mail http://mail.yahoo.fr
        > >
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Dieter Brand
        ... Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn t it Idéfix le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don t
        Message 3 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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          > I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum ...

          Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn't it Idéfix
          le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out
          his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don't listen to them.

          Lets not take this all too serious.

          Dieter



          ---------------------------------
          Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

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        • Dieter Brand
          ... Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn t it Idéfix le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don t
          Message 4 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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            > I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum ...

            Jamie, such is the lot of the poet and bard. Wasn't it Idéfix
            le Gallois who got his head banged in each time he got out
            his lyre? Bl.. peasants! Don't listen to them.

            Lets not take this all too seriously.

            Dieter



            ---------------------------------
            Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • robin
            ***thank you so much, you can see/will see how clumsy i am with words. i will try to be understandable; i am not annoyed with your beautiful expressions, and
            Message 5 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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              ***thank you so much, you can see/will see how clumsy i am with words. i
              will try to be understandable; i am not annoyed with your beautiful
              expressions, and "coded esoteric doublespeak" was a poor choice of
              phrase, i didn't mean for it to be derogatory...except for maybe when
              I do it...ha. i enjoy so much your poetry and word-play, jamie...and
              your courage to come on here and say them when you many times get
              slapped down for doing so... at these times i become a little frantic
              that you might become disallusioned with the group and leave for good.

              at the same time i can understand why there is a rule for this group
              to control ourselves from delving too deeply into discussions about
              the existence and nature of god...people may get overexcited and
              become too dogmatic, turning people off and causing or contributing to
              quarrels. limits do help to channel discussions into positive streams,
              instead of the instant flood erosion of overchoice (huh? did i just
              say that? weird!... oh, what the hay...you see what i mean when i say
              flood erosion-it could be called "diarrea of the mouth", to put it
              crudely...yikes, can't stop). as my brother would say, "edit,edit,
              edit... ha!

              i appreciate the creativity with which those who do understand can
              express "God" without uttering the word "God". those are the limits
              which keep us disciplined and self-controlled. i seem not to have that
              gift of beautiful linguistic expression that originates within my own
              self, and i feel suppressed and annoyed by that... i shouldn't blame
              the rules, or others; there is, of course, an infinite number of ways
              to express my feelings of "God" without naming "God" but i am
              incapable of doing this effectively...

              all i see that i can do is read the words of fukuoka-san and quote him
              here on this list...i can't even improve on them..as i am reading his
              words i feel i do understand... but now i understand that i am
              incapable of understanding. or that i understood once, but now i don't
              anymore...but i yearn for understanding, just as i think fukuoka-san
              did; i feel somewhat like a bruised-up angel...i saw heaven (or nature
              or god) once but i fell/fall back to ego by my own repetitive
              rejection of god-that is what gives rise to my frustrations, feelings
              of "oh, what's the use of explaining anything". it's already explained
              there and i will just set it down here for folks who do not have the
              copy of the book, to read and ponder...

              for example, when the discussion turns to "how to feed the people" i
              want to reply, as fukuoka did, quoting jesus, "man doesn't live by
              bread alone". but then i am afraid that this phrase has too many
              religious connotations, so i didn't say anything, even though
              fukuoka-san said it-quoted jesus. so it's hard to say the equivalent
              to "man doesn't live by bread alone" by making up a new way of saying
              it that doesn't connote or "name the nameless name"...i appreciate
              those who can do it; i'm frustrated by my lack of skills to do so. i
              hope it is acceptable to quote Fukuoka-san speaking of God, as he does
              here:***

              (preface to japanese edition)

              "this book is an attempt to paint a true picture of God, nature and
              man. such an ambitious venture is beyond the powers of a slow-witted
              farmer. yet, well aware as i am of this, there is a reason why i have
              chosen to write this juvenile book. one day, while still a young man,
              i suddenly saw the totality of God.

              i have never revealed this before. why do i here spit out these words
              which for almost fifty years i have kept hidden in my heart? there is
              more to my reluctance than mere hesitation. no, i have ordinarily
              sought at all costs to avoid uttering the word God. this is because i
              knew that man is incapable of speaking about God, or of understanding
              or believing in God. yet now, i deliberately break this personal taboo
              as, with intense remorse, i dare to say "God" and await divine judgment".

              ***in the future i'll tr-try to refrain from bringing in religion to
              these discussions. just know that whatever i might say, i really mean
              i yearn for and want to attract God to me and desire communion with
              God.***

              fukuoka-san;

              "what i want to say is God did not create heaven, earth, and the
              cosmos. rather, when the earth was born and the meadow flowers
              bloomed, the butterflies fluttered about, and the birds sang, God came
              of his own choosing to dwell there.
              "instead of praying to God as a mighty power that reigns over the
              heavens, man should have frolicked innocently with this wonderful
              sprite, this angel inhabiting the fields. that was the shortest road
              back to nature and at once the Great Way back to the side of God".

              "natural farming is possible".

              "god in all ages appears as a discontinuous continuum. natural farming
              too, since antiquity, may have arisen and vasnished and risen again to
              flourish. natural farming is one of the spiritual lights that must be
              kept burning throughtout the night. in this age in which we live, it
              is possible that if this light dies out, it may never burn again".

              "god has left man to his own devices: he has abandoned man. if man
              does not save himself, no one will do this for him".

              look how beautiful, the flowers of the earth!
              this is the land where live the gods;
              a perfect, faultless. natural patadise.

              now in the deep slumber of spring in my eden,
              i dream a private dream of returning to nature.
              here there is nothing that must be done; no effort is required, not
              even courage.

              but no one even bothers to look back.
              will the road to nature fade again
              into the mists?

              ***i hope i didn't take these quotes out of context..the above
              introspection is not intended as a "stop thought" thing, or stop the
              discussion of practical agricultural aspects of natural farming...they
              are just some thoughts, while nature is a bit frozen and dormant
              right now in january,
              outside my window...
              ... can't wait for spring.***robin







              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol"
              <souscayrous@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Robin, you write: "you are suppressed from mentioning certain
              subjects,
              > you may feel forced to start speaking in a sort of coded estoteric
              > doublespeak, to attempt to get your points across".
              >
              > I sometimes feel harried by other members of the forum for
              mentioning those
              > things that Fukuoka stated clearly were the inspiration for his NF.
              However,
              > the esoteric doublespeak is just the latest way I am trying to
              express the
              > inexpressible in Fukuoka. Paradox can be annoying, but it can also be
              > effective. Other possible forms of expression would include irony (I
              have
              > gone this way before!!!), tautology and poetry.
              >
              > I realised some time ago that with regard to Fukuoka there were
              those who
              > already understood, those who had not yet understood and those who will
              > never understand. I try to write for the second group of people...
              >
              >
              > Why is there not nothing?
              >
              > Why is there something?
              >
              > Each day the sun
              >
              > Rain swells earth and river
              >
              > Warm sea spreads mist deep inland
              >
              > Wind sculpts tree
              >
              > How can it be?
              >
              >
              >
              > Listen, look, smell: This is life!
              >
              > How?
              >
              >
              >
              > Wind moves the grass,
              >
              > Cloud builds to the West,
              >
              > Rain lashes the fields,
              >
              > A bird sings from the tree,
              >
              > Offspring of sun.
              >
              >
              > This broken, inferior shard,
              > Unworthy sun, dis-several star,
              > Spun off cold, to become earth...
              >
              > Jamie
              > Mas Franch and Souscayrous
              >
              >
            • macropneuma
              Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic. Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by the Australian indigenous peoples and
              Message 6 of 11 , Jan 5, 2008
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                Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic.

                Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by the Australian indigenous
                peoples' and Fukuoka's natural farming traditions, also Raju's great example herein, but
                myself i'm not of their calibre at all. i don't follow at all the babylon-system 'western
                agriculture' traditions, and in the 'western' system i'm an ecologist, and computer mapping
                GIS professional.
                So folks remind yourselves about outside of this group's writing, that the real and worst
                and very serious farming-dogma is in the pinnacle-of-conventional-agriculture from the
                'western' babylon-system here in Australia, in the USA, in the EU. My conventional
                agriculture-neighbours have so much pressure on them and they apply to others including
                me, to conform to obscene-levels of dogma (examples from my farmer neighbours who
                are friends with me):
                -burn all limbs of trees that fall off into paddocks from remnant forest trees, within days,
                or the district farmers despise you having a "mess" of a farm, not to mention felling and
                burning any trees that die as a whole.
                -plow every year at least once, to "loosen up the soil", "turn under weeds", "open up the
                soil for rain", etc.
                -graze the paddocks down (to near bare dirt), at all times, to remove wildfire-fuel-grass.
                -get up early, like 4-5am, every day of the year, including christmass day and all holidays,
                if not for milking dairy cows, then to start work on the paddocks & fields, which continues
                with a lunch break until 6-7pm every night, if not doing this then one is despised as not
                being a real farmer -i semantically read that as masochist. Involves, driving the tractor or
                4 wheel bike over the whole property (eg. 600 acres) inspecting every place inside the
                boundary fence every single day, hand pulling some "weeds", spraying other weeds,
                watering with massive sprinklers which pump out of the river -drying it up, etc.
                -lastly, "living off the land" - if one doesn't have a large, many 100s of acres, farm (eg.
                mine is 30 acres), and earn all of ones income from ones farm land, then one is not a real
                farmer, and is just a "hobby-farmer", mucking & messing around, not serious, and not to
                be listened to on the topic of farming, -'all that hobby farm exists because it is subsidised
                from outside-income'

                Nowadays, i have long ago resisted and overcome that sort of fear, loathing, ignorance,
                folly, anxiety, and absurd conformity, in my district and with most of my neighbourhood
                farmers.
                Make no mistake, though, this is the extremity of dogma. And it has been that way in the
                'western' babylon-system tradition of farming/agriculture for 1000s of years.

                Fukuoka-sensei uses philosophy as the basis for demolishing dogmas, that the (one)
                importance of philosophy.
                Without critical-thinking or critical-philosophy all is just dogmatic "he said this, he said
                that, she said this and this other person said this" hearsay of the sort that the most
                brutal, dogmatic, loudest, and lowest-common-denominator 'wins'. When really all such is
                just hearsay without critical thinking, without real understanding, without philosophical
                understanding, and without history or any repeated (non-circumstantial) evidence.
                Fukuoka-sensei has hit the bullseye, and if some us fail to see or recognise that bullseye,
                then we must look again until we do (haha :) that the 'dogma-like' way i put it here, and
                only one 'dogma-like' think i'd say here, on this FUKUOKA_FARMING group)
                Fukuoka-sensei is all about critical-philosophy-based pluralism, counter-dogma, a-
                conformity (my word, like the sense of a in amoral) to human-in-isolation-alienation-from-
                the-rest-of-nature thinking, and intergrating life with the rest of nature (not quite
                conforming with), in my humble opinion.
                This is so rewarding, if you haven't found this reward yet the look & read again and again
                until you do.

                Loving kindness to all.
              • Adin Sh
                Dear macropneuma, You have described very well the extremes the modern farmers had drove themselves to. But every stick has two ends. The other extreme is to
                Message 7 of 11 , Jan 6, 2008
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                  Dear macropneuma,

                  You have described very well the extremes the modern farmers had drove themselves to.
                  But every stick has two ends.
                  The other extreme is to become a staunch devotee of some philosophy that completely denies the first extreme and peacefully watch how ants,sparrows and weeds turn your garden into a wild prairie...
                  Then our devotee stands up and decides to go to supermarket to buy some rice,flour and cow milk and butter. Why not, he is hungry!
                  It seems that no-till may be one of the golden path methods that are a compromise of the two extremes.
                  Thanks to Raju Titus for a nice pictures!
                  Regards!

                  macropneuma <macropneuma@...> wrote:
                  Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic.

                  Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by the Australian indigenous
                  peoples' and Fukuoka's natural farming traditions, also Raju's great example herein, but
                  myself i'm not of their calibre at all. i don't follow at all the babylon-system 'western
                  agriculture' traditions, and in the 'western' system i'm an ecologist, and computer mapping
                  GIS professional.
                  So folks remind yourselves about outside of this group's writing, that the real and worst
                  and very serious farming-dogma is in the pinnacle-of-conventional-agriculture from the
                  'western' babylon-system here in Australia, in the USA, in the EU. My conventional
                  agriculture-neighbours have so much pressure on them and they apply to others including
                  me, to conform to obscene-levels of dogma (examples from my farmer neighbours who
                  are friends with me):
                  -burn all limbs of trees that fall off into paddocks from remnant forest trees, within days,
                  or the district farmers despise you having a "mess" of a farm, not to mention felling and
                  burning any trees that die as a whole.
                  -plow every year at least once, to "loosen up the soil", "turn under weeds", "open up the
                  soil for rain", etc.
                  -graze the paddocks down (to near bare dirt), at all times, to remove wildfire-fuel-grass.
                  -get up early, like 4-5am, every day of the year, including christmass day and all holidays,
                  if not for milking dairy cows, then to start work on the paddocks & fields, which continues
                  with a lunch break until 6-7pm every night, if not doing this then one is despised as not
                  being a real farmer -i semantically read that as masochist. Involves, driving the tractor or
                  4 wheel bike over the whole property (eg. 600 acres) inspecting every place inside the
                  boundary fence every single day, hand pulling some "weeds", spraying other weeds,
                  watering with massive sprinklers which pump out of the river -drying it up, etc.
                  -lastly, "living off the land" - if one doesn't have a large, many 100s of acres, farm (eg.
                  mine is 30 acres), and earn all of ones income from ones farm land, then one is not a real
                  farmer, and is just a "hobby-farmer", mucking & messing around, not serious, and not to
                  be listened to on the topic of farming, -'all that hobby farm exists because it is subsidised
                  from outside-income'

                  Nowadays, i have long ago resisted and overcome that sort of fear, loathing, ignorance,
                  folly, anxiety, and absurd conformity, in my district and with most of my neighbourhood
                  farmers.
                  Make no mistake, though, this is the extremity of dogma. And it has been that way in the
                  'western' babylon-system tradition of farming/agriculture for 1000s of years.

                  Fukuoka-sensei uses philosophy as the basis for demolishing dogmas, that the (one)
                  importance of philosophy.
                  Without critical-thinking or critical-philosophy all is just dogmatic "he said this, he said
                  that, she said this and this other person said this" hearsay of the sort that the most
                  brutal, dogmatic, loudest, and lowest-common-denominator 'wins'. When really all such is
                  just hearsay without critical thinking, without real understanding, without philosophical
                  understanding, and without history or any repeated (non-circumstantial) evidence.
                  Fukuoka-sensei has hit the bullseye, and if some us fail to see or recognise that bullseye,
                  then we must look again until we do (haha :) that the 'dogma-like' way i put it here, and
                  only one 'dogma-like' think i'd say here, on this FUKUOKA_FARMING group)
                  Fukuoka-sensei is all about critical-philosophy-based pluralism, counter-dogma, a-
                  conformity (my word, like the sense of a in amoral) to human-in-isolation-alienation-from-
                  the-rest-of-nature thinking, and intergrating life with the rest of nature (not quite
                  conforming with), in my humble opinion.
                  This is so rewarding, if you haven't found this reward yet the look & read again and again
                  until you do.

                  Loving kindness to all.






                  ---------------------------------
                  Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • macropneuma
                  Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic. Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by Australian indigenous peoples and
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jan 7, 2008
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                    Jamie and Robyn, I love your words as usual, in this topic.

                    Folks, i am a farmer in practice, following on & inspired-by
                    Australian indigenous peoples' and Fukuoka's natural farming,
                    traditions, also by Raju's great example herein, but myself i'm not
                    of their calibre at all.
                    i don't follow at all the babylon-system - 'western agriculture'
                    traditions, and in the 'western' system i'm an ecologist, and
                    computer mapping GIS professional.

                    So folks remind yourselves about outside of this group's writing,
                    that the real, worst and very serious farming-dogma is in the
                    pinnacle-of-conventional-agriculture from the 'western' babylon-
                    system, here in Australia, in the USA, in the EU, in some parts of
                    the middle-east, etc.
                    My conventional-agriculture-neighbours have so much pressure on them
                    and they apply it to other-people including me, to conform to obscene-
                    levels of dogma.
                    Here are some minor examples from my farmer neighbours who are
                    friends with me (there are much more major examples of *need*less
                    conformity in the babylon-system - 'western agriculture' traditions
                    generally -in the wider-world than in my district here in SE
                    Australia):
                    -burn all limbs of trees within days that fall off into paddocks from
                    remnant forest trees, or the district farmers despise you as
                    having a "mess" of a farm, not to mention felling and burning any
                    trees that die as a whole.
                    -plow every year at least once, to "loosen up the soil", "turn under
                    weeds", "open up the soil for rain", etc.
                    -graze the paddocks down (to near bare dirt), at all times, to remove
                    wildfire-fuel-grass. This includes within cropping areas at all times
                    that the crop is not vulnerable to damage by the grazers, eg. corn
                    crops, when the corn is already grown big and woody-like but without
                    cobs or well developed flowers yet, and immediately after harvesting
                    the cobs it is intensively grazed.
                    -get up early, like 4-5am, every day of the year, including
                    christmass day and all holidays, if not for milking dairy cows, then
                    to start by working on the paddocks & fields. Hard work continues
                    with a lunch break until 6-7pm every night.
                    If ones is not doing this then one is despised as not being a real
                    farmer -i read that semantically as their masochism. Work includes,
                    driving the tractor or 4 wheel bike over the whole property (eg. 600
                    acres) inspecting every place inside the boundary fence every single
                    day, hand pulling some "weeds", spraying other weeds, watering with
                    massive sprinklers which pump out of the river -drying it up, etc.
                    Lastly
                    -"living off the land" - if one doesn't have a large farm of many
                    100s of acres (eg. mine is 30 acres), and earn all of ones income
                    from ones farm land, then one is not a real farmer, and is just
                    a "hobby-farmer", mucking & messing around, not serious, and not to
                    be listened to on the topic of farming, -paraphrasing: 'all of that
                    [your] hobby farm exists because it is subsidised from outside-
                    income!'

                    Nowadays, i have long ago resisted and overcome that sort of fear,
                    loathing, ignorance, folly, anxiety, and absurd conformity, in my
                    district and with most of my district (neighbour) farmers.

                    Make no mistake, though, this is the extremity of dogma. And it has
                    been that way in the 'western' babylon-system tradition of
                    farming/agriculture for thousands of years.

                    Fukuoka-sensei uses philosophy as the basis for demolishing dogmas,
                    that's (one of the) the importance of philosophy.
                    Without critical-thinking or critical-philosophy all is just
                    dogmatic -"he said this, he said that", "she said this" and "this
                    other person said this"- hearsay, of the sort that the most
                    brutal, dogmatic, loudest, and lowest-common-denominator 'wins'. When
                    really all such-like is just hearsay without critical thinking,
                    without real understanding, without philosophical understanding, and
                    without history or any repeated (non-circumstantial) evidence.

                    Fukuoka-sensei has hit the bullseye, and if some us fail to see or
                    recognise that bullseye, then we must look again until we do.
                    (haha :) that is the 'dogma-like' way that i put it here, and
                    the only one 'dogma-like' words i'd say here. On this FUKUOKA_FARMING
                    group! ie. the bleeding obvious.)
                    Fukuoka-sensei is all about critical-philosophy-based pluralism,
                    counter-dogma, a-conformity (my word, like the sense of a~ in amoral)
                    to the thinking of human(ity) in isolation &/or alienation from the
                    rest of nature, and integrating (ones) life with the rest of nature
                    (not quite conforming with it) - in my humble opinion.
                    This is so rewarding, if you haven't found this reward yet, then look
                    & read again and again until you do.

                    Loving kindness to all.
                    [Many spelling errors, arising the original of this above having been
                    typed directly on my handheld, have now been corrected, on the big
                    desktop PC at the library - sorry folks for how difficult some of it
                    was to read.]
                  • JSENT
                    Then our devotee stands up and decides to go to supermarket to buy some rice,flour and cow milk and butter. Why not, he is hungry! A wild landscape provides
                    Message 9 of 11 , Jan 8, 2008
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                      "Then our devotee stands up and decides to go to supermarket to buy some rice,flour and cow milk and butter. Why not, he is hungry!"

                      A wild landscape provides food too. Perhaps the devotee is hungry AND conditioned to industrialized fare (like myself). One year I rented land that was tilled each year for many years. The year I rented it was its first fallow year in the owner's memory. This annually tilled and sprayed land which had always grown food, not for people, but livestock, sent up plants on every square foot, a majority of them edible for humans. And this edible fare changed through the seasons. I added many to my offerings at the farmer's market, especially the spring greens. The owner was unhappy with the overgrowth but was pleased when hunters approached her to rent it after my time was up. It had become a great habitat for small game. Now it is back to tilled farmland and the hunters are unhappy but the farmer should be glad to have rested land with a lot of organic matter turned back.

                      This may be exceptional land here in the grand prairie but this is an example of how our approach to what is considered food can affect our method of producing it. What food will the land grow without tilling it?

                      cheers, jake
                      grandprairiefood.com


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