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Re: Regarding White Ant problem.

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  • Forest Shomer
    Dieter: Yes, the problem in one word is: Ideology. The mind of the True Believer is so beguiled by concepts that it avoids practical experience that might
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 3 10:11 AM
      Dieter:

      Yes, the problem in one word is: Ideology.

      The mind of the True Believer is so beguiled by concepts that it
      avoids practical experience that might contradict belief. The
      grasping tendency of that mind seizes upon a seductive "ism" and
      attempts to defend itself against the challenges of reality, of
      everyday life experience.

      Here on this list, "most of all on this list" as you say, we have a
      dynamic tension between the Orthodox and the Innovative. Neither will
      successfully convince the other of its own point of view, mirroring
      the tension that exists in the world at-large, which periodically
      erupts into open conflict as one -ism attempts to purge another.
      Ironically, it was the freedom from -ism, the beginner's mind of
      Fukuoka, that attracted us here initially.

      We're fortunate that the tension on this list is merely rhetorical.
      From time to time there is actual communication across the divide and
      we all may learn something; at most other times there is little
      learning, more cheer-leading as polar positions get reinforced.

      C'est la vie.

      "Out beyond ideas of right and wrong
      There is a field.
      I'll meet you there."
      --(Mevlana) Jelaluddin Rumi

      This wisdom of nearly 800 years' antiquity provides guidance on how
      we are to get along, to cooperate in order that there be a
      FukuokaFarming listserve. Merely recognize an Ideology when it
      arises, and if it bothers you that isn't your own, just scroll down
      to the next message. Or patiently engage with it to help the group
      get a bit closer to mutual understanding.

      Truly,

      Forest



      >Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:52 am (PST)
      >
      >...To "have a theory" based on something one has read on Google or
      >someplace else and to "have practical experience" are two very different
      >things.
      >
      >The often repeated idea that "nature will fix all" is only applicable if we
      >view the land without people. People need to eat, hence they need to
      >intervene to grow food since most of us have a digestive track different
      >from that of cows who are able to live on grass and weeds (in most
      >places even cows can't survive without a little help from us humans).
      >
      >Patty, Calin et al., I'm not picking on you, I'm sure you mean well.
      >I'm just commenting in a general way on a line of thought that keeps
      >on popping up on many EcAg groups and most of all on this list,
      >and which I feel is not helpful in solving the practical problems of
      >those who try to put natural farming or other types of alternative
      >farming methods into praxis.
      >
      >Today, 60 years after Fukuoka first developed his type of natural
      >farming, 30 years after it was first published and more than 5 years
      >after this group was set up to try and discuss the adoption of
      >natural farming to different environments, Natural Farming, for
      >all intents and practical purposes, might as well not exist as
      >a way of growing food to feed people. Why is that? I believe
      >the tendency to put "ideas" above "practice" has something
      >to do with it.
      >
      >Do comment if you disagree (also if you agree) <snip>
      >
      >Dieter Brand
      >Portugal


      --
      Inside Passage Seeds and Native Plant Services
      Forest Shomer, owner
      Port Townsend, WA, USA
      inspass@...
      http://www.insidepassageseeds.com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Dieter Brand
      Larry, Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don t worry, we are not at each other s throat, it s all very civilized. I wouldn t write off NF, or
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 3 10:47 AM
        Larry,

        Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don't
        worry, we are not at each other's throat, it's all very civilized.

        I wouldn't write off NF, or organic no-till, as a commercial
        non-starter. Even though it may not be possible to adapt
        it to many places in the way originally envisaged by Fukuoka.
        Other than difficult climatic conditions, there are also
        economic and regulatory conditions, especially in the
        industrialized West, which make it hard for farmers to
        go this way.

        Anyway, I think Fukuoka is still a source of inspiration to
        many, even in regard to practical gardening/farming matters.
        There undoubtedly also is the philosophical and spiritual
        dimension to Fukuoka. I feel in tune with many of his ideas
        in this respect too. Yet, used in a "dogmatic" way this
        tends to stifle pragmatic discussions about the question
        of how to put NF into practice. That, I think is a tragedy.

        We don't only face a climatic melt down, but unnoticed
        by many, this goes hand in hand with the contamination of
        the food chain with innumerable toxic substances that will
        kill us all sooner or later and a loss of organic matter in
        agricultural soils on which all live on this planet depends.
        If NF cannot contribute anything in practical terms to
        solving these problems, then we might as well forget all
        about it.

        Dieter Brand
        Portugal

        Lawrence <lawrence@...> wrote:
        Jamie Nicole wrote:
        > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

        Dieter Brand wrote:
        I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
        are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
        is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
        of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
        developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

        You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
        same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
        though limited.

        To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
        perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
        living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
        being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
        otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
        of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

        For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
        Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
        quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
        website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
        this month.

        Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
        methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
        only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
        modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
        because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
        work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
        commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
        commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
        aeroponics, etc.

        I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
        add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
        more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
        either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

        Larry


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      • Tradingpost
        Jamie, isn t it american indian languages that don t have separate nouns and verbs? No thing is thought of separate from what it does or what you do with it.
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 3 10:50 AM
          Jamie, isn't it american indian languages that don't have separate nouns
          and verbs? No thing is thought of separate from what it does or what you do
          with it. All is in flux, all is process. That is so different from western
          concepts where we add fertilizer to soil and never see the networks of life
          that make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

          paul tradingpost@...

          Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
          --Henry David Thoreau

          *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

          On 1/3/2008 at 9:20 AM Dieter Brand wrote:

          >Jamie,
          >
          > "methodless method", you like these things, just as you like
          > Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that
          > someone else?) and so many other icons of my distant youth.
          > We can throw ko-ans at each other until we drop dead.
          >
          > When we caught the ox we can ride on his back to the market
          > square, and, in the end forget all about the ox. Then, words
          > will again mean what they always meant, farming will be
          > farming again.
          >
          > Dieter
          >
          >Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@...> wrote:
          > Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method'
          >and he came
          >to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.
          >
          >It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden?
          When
          >does a gardener become a farmer?)
          >
          >Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and
          what
          >I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
          >This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
          >finger pointing at the moon.
          >
          >Jamie
          >Mas Franch and Souscayrous
          >
        • Robert Monie
          Hi Larry, Let me second Dieter s welcome back. One update long overdue on your site is to expand the stars section. When that sidereal mapping was made,
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 3 1:34 PM
            Hi Larry,

            Let me second Dieter's welcome back. One update long overdue on your site is to expand the "stars" section. When that sidereal mapping was made, most of us were "seeing stars"; that is, growing stuff in our imagination rather than the soil. Now we've got some real farmers like Dieter growing lots of plants more or less naturally, and they have certainly earned a place on "the map." And those of us who have worked on the soil, have grown used to having our fondest assumptions bite the dust before the reality of nature as it is played out on our little squares of earth.

            It is an amazing thing that food for humans grows at all amid the forbs and grasses fit for cows; it is an evolutionary wonder that we did not have to develop the cud-chewing capacity and multiplex stomach of the ruminants; instead we developed (with the help of nature) our own kind of food. Reverence, therefore, rather than contempt or indifference is the proper stance for us as we view the handiwork of generations of human plant breeders and farmers of all persuasions, whose names and provenance we will never know, that gave us bok choy, tomatoes, peaches, buckwheat, and all the rest of the foods that grace our tables today.
            We benefit from all their meddling, their serendipity, their failures, their blood sweat and tears.

            Bob Monie
            New Orleans, La 70119







            Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
            Larry,

            Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don't
            worry, we are not at each other's throat, it's all very civilized.

            I wouldn't write off NF, or organic no-till, as a commercial
            non-starter. Even though it may not be possible to adapt
            it to many places in the way originally envisaged by Fukuoka.
            Other than difficult climatic conditions, there are also
            economic and regulatory conditions, especially in the
            industrialized West, which make it hard for farmers to
            go this way.

            Anyway, I think Fukuoka is still a source of inspiration to
            many, even in regard to practical gardening/farming matters.
            There undoubtedly also is the philosophical and spiritual
            dimension to Fukuoka. I feel in tune with many of his ideas
            in this respect too. Yet, used in a "dogmatic" way this
            tends to stifle pragmatic discussions about the question
            of how to put NF into practice. That, I think is a tragedy.

            We don't only face a climatic melt down, but unnoticed
            by many, this goes hand in hand with the contamination of
            the food chain with innumerable toxic substances that will
            kill us all sooner or later and a loss of organic matter in
            agricultural soils on which all live on this planet depends.
            If NF cannot contribute anything in practical terms to
            solving these problems, then we might as well forget all
            about it.

            Dieter Brand
            Portugal

            Lawrence <lawrence@...> wrote:
            Jamie Nicole wrote:
            > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

            Dieter Brand wrote:
            I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
            are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
            is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
            of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
            developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

            You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
            same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
            though limited.

            To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
            perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
            living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
            being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
            otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
            of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

            For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
            Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
            quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
            website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
            this month.

            Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
            methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
            only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
            modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
            because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
            work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
            commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
            commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
            aeroponics, etc.

            I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
            add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
            more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
            either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

            Larry

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            .

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          • pattyloof
            ... clearer. I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend. Patty
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 3 6:42 PM
              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

              > I have clearly explained
              > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
              > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any
              clearer.


              I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend.

              Patty
            • Dieter Brand
              Patty, No offence at all. I was saying that, as far as I could see, if ants can find shelter they will multiply in direct proportion to the food available and
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 3 9:23 PM
                Patty,

                No offence at all. I was saying that, as far as I could
                see, if ants can find shelter they will multiply in direct
                proportion to the food available and that in this region,
                predators, even if they exist elsewhere, didn't have
                a significant impact on ants.

                I live on a heavy clay soil, that is ideal for building
                rammed earth constructions, ants take advantage of
                this by building extensive tunnels underground. They
                mainly live on seeds, even though they will also
                collect dead insects and other things. And since
                there are plenty of seeds from grass and weeds
                they have been able to prosper and multiply. Similar
                conditions have led to large ant populations all around
                probably since time immemorial, except, in places with
                sandy soil where ants can't build their tunnels.

                But as I said, I don't see ants as a pest, they can be
                a nuisance at times, but they also fulfil many useful
                functions.

                Dieter

                pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                > I have clearly explained
                > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
                > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any
                clearer.

                I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend.

                Patty






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