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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Regarding White Ant problem.

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  • Dieter Brand
    ... Jamie, I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming, is ... And no
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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      > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

      Jamie,

      I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
      are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
      is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
      of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
      developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

      If you decide that farming is not for you, that is quite alright, nobody
      is forced to become a farmer. But those without actual experience
      of growing their own food usually do not appreciate the difficulties
      involved. It is all too easy for city folks to criticize farmers for the way
      they work.

      Best wishes
      Dieter

      PS: No use complaining about disembodied forums, it is up to
      us to embody. But obviously, it takes at least two to dialogue.



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    • Jamie Nicol
      Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a methodless method and he came to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge. It is true that I
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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        Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method' and he came
        to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.

        It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden? When
        does a gardener become a farmer?)

        Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and what
        I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
        This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
        finger pointing at the moon.

        Jamie
        Mas Franch and Souscayrous


        On 1/3/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
        >
        > > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)
        >
        > Jamie,
        >
        > I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
        > are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
        > is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
        > of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
        > developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.
        >
        > If you decide that farming is not for you, that is quite alright, nobody
        > is forced to become a farmer. But those without actual experience
        > of growing their own food usually do not appreciate the difficulties
        > involved. It is all too easy for city folks to criticize farmers for the
        > way
        > they work.
        >
        > Best wishes
        > Dieter
        >
        > PS: No use complaining about disembodied forums, it is up to
        > us to embody. But obviously, it takes at least two to dialogue.
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
        > now.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Lawrence
        ... Dieter Brand wrote: I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming, is
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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          Jamie Nicole wrote:
          > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

          Dieter Brand wrote:
          I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
          are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
          is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
          of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
          developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

          You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
          same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
          though limited.

          To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
          perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
          living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
          being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
          otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
          of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

          For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
          Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
          quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
          website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
          this month.

          Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
          methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
          only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
          modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
          because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
          work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
          commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
          commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
          aeroponics, etc.

          I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
          add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
          more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
          either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

          Larry




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dieter Brand
          Jamie, methodless method , you like these things, just as you like Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that someone else?) and so many other
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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            Jamie,

            "methodless method", you like these things, just as you like
            Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that
            someone else?) and so many other icons of my distant youth.
            We can throw ko-ans at each other until we drop dead.

            When we caught the ox we can ride on his back to the market
            square, and, in the end forget all about the ox. Then, words
            will again mean what they always meant, farming will be
            farming again.

            Dieter

            Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@...> wrote:
            Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method' and he came
            to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.

            It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden? When
            does a gardener become a farmer?)

            Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and what
            I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
            This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
            finger pointing at the moon.

            Jamie
            Mas Franch and Souscayrous


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          • Forest Shomer
            Dieter: Yes, the problem in one word is: Ideology. The mind of the True Believer is so beguiled by concepts that it avoids practical experience that might
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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              Dieter:

              Yes, the problem in one word is: Ideology.

              The mind of the True Believer is so beguiled by concepts that it
              avoids practical experience that might contradict belief. The
              grasping tendency of that mind seizes upon a seductive "ism" and
              attempts to defend itself against the challenges of reality, of
              everyday life experience.

              Here on this list, "most of all on this list" as you say, we have a
              dynamic tension between the Orthodox and the Innovative. Neither will
              successfully convince the other of its own point of view, mirroring
              the tension that exists in the world at-large, which periodically
              erupts into open conflict as one -ism attempts to purge another.
              Ironically, it was the freedom from -ism, the beginner's mind of
              Fukuoka, that attracted us here initially.

              We're fortunate that the tension on this list is merely rhetorical.
              From time to time there is actual communication across the divide and
              we all may learn something; at most other times there is little
              learning, more cheer-leading as polar positions get reinforced.

              C'est la vie.

              "Out beyond ideas of right and wrong
              There is a field.
              I'll meet you there."
              --(Mevlana) Jelaluddin Rumi

              This wisdom of nearly 800 years' antiquity provides guidance on how
              we are to get along, to cooperate in order that there be a
              FukuokaFarming listserve. Merely recognize an Ideology when it
              arises, and if it bothers you that isn't your own, just scroll down
              to the next message. Or patiently engage with it to help the group
              get a bit closer to mutual understanding.

              Truly,

              Forest



              >Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:52 am (PST)
              >
              >...To "have a theory" based on something one has read on Google or
              >someplace else and to "have practical experience" are two very different
              >things.
              >
              >The often repeated idea that "nature will fix all" is only applicable if we
              >view the land without people. People need to eat, hence they need to
              >intervene to grow food since most of us have a digestive track different
              >from that of cows who are able to live on grass and weeds (in most
              >places even cows can't survive without a little help from us humans).
              >
              >Patty, Calin et al., I'm not picking on you, I'm sure you mean well.
              >I'm just commenting in a general way on a line of thought that keeps
              >on popping up on many EcAg groups and most of all on this list,
              >and which I feel is not helpful in solving the practical problems of
              >those who try to put natural farming or other types of alternative
              >farming methods into praxis.
              >
              >Today, 60 years after Fukuoka first developed his type of natural
              >farming, 30 years after it was first published and more than 5 years
              >after this group was set up to try and discuss the adoption of
              >natural farming to different environments, Natural Farming, for
              >all intents and practical purposes, might as well not exist as
              >a way of growing food to feed people. Why is that? I believe
              >the tendency to put "ideas" above "practice" has something
              >to do with it.
              >
              >Do comment if you disagree (also if you agree) <snip>
              >
              >Dieter Brand
              >Portugal


              --
              Inside Passage Seeds and Native Plant Services
              Forest Shomer, owner
              Port Townsend, WA, USA
              inspass@...
              http://www.insidepassageseeds.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dieter Brand
              Larry, Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don t worry, we are not at each other s throat, it s all very civilized. I wouldn t write off NF, or
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                Larry,

                Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don't
                worry, we are not at each other's throat, it's all very civilized.

                I wouldn't write off NF, or organic no-till, as a commercial
                non-starter. Even though it may not be possible to adapt
                it to many places in the way originally envisaged by Fukuoka.
                Other than difficult climatic conditions, there are also
                economic and regulatory conditions, especially in the
                industrialized West, which make it hard for farmers to
                go this way.

                Anyway, I think Fukuoka is still a source of inspiration to
                many, even in regard to practical gardening/farming matters.
                There undoubtedly also is the philosophical and spiritual
                dimension to Fukuoka. I feel in tune with many of his ideas
                in this respect too. Yet, used in a "dogmatic" way this
                tends to stifle pragmatic discussions about the question
                of how to put NF into practice. That, I think is a tragedy.

                We don't only face a climatic melt down, but unnoticed
                by many, this goes hand in hand with the contamination of
                the food chain with innumerable toxic substances that will
                kill us all sooner or later and a loss of organic matter in
                agricultural soils on which all live on this planet depends.
                If NF cannot contribute anything in practical terms to
                solving these problems, then we might as well forget all
                about it.

                Dieter Brand
                Portugal

                Lawrence <lawrence@...> wrote:
                Jamie Nicole wrote:
                > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

                Dieter Brand wrote:
                I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
                are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
                is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
                of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
                developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

                You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
                same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
                though limited.

                To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
                perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
                living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
                being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
                otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
                of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

                For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
                Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
                quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
                website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
                this month.

                Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
                methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
                only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
                modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
                because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
                work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
                commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
                commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
                aeroponics, etc.

                I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
                add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
                more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
                either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

                Larry


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              • Tradingpost
                Jamie, isn t it american indian languages that don t have separate nouns and verbs? No thing is thought of separate from what it does or what you do with it.
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                  Jamie, isn't it american indian languages that don't have separate nouns
                  and verbs? No thing is thought of separate from what it does or what you do
                  with it. All is in flux, all is process. That is so different from western
                  concepts where we add fertilizer to soil and never see the networks of life
                  that make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

                  paul tradingpost@...

                  Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
                  --Henry David Thoreau

                  *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                  On 1/3/2008 at 9:20 AM Dieter Brand wrote:

                  >Jamie,
                  >
                  > "methodless method", you like these things, just as you like
                  > Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that
                  > someone else?) and so many other icons of my distant youth.
                  > We can throw ko-ans at each other until we drop dead.
                  >
                  > When we caught the ox we can ride on his back to the market
                  > square, and, in the end forget all about the ox. Then, words
                  > will again mean what they always meant, farming will be
                  > farming again.
                  >
                  > Dieter
                  >
                  >Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@...> wrote:
                  > Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method'
                  >and he came
                  >to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.
                  >
                  >It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden?
                  When
                  >does a gardener become a farmer?)
                  >
                  >Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and
                  what
                  >I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
                  >This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
                  >finger pointing at the moon.
                  >
                  >Jamie
                  >Mas Franch and Souscayrous
                  >
                • Robert Monie
                  Hi Larry, Let me second Dieter s welcome back. One update long overdue on your site is to expand the stars section. When that sidereal mapping was made,
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                    Hi Larry,

                    Let me second Dieter's welcome back. One update long overdue on your site is to expand the "stars" section. When that sidereal mapping was made, most of us were "seeing stars"; that is, growing stuff in our imagination rather than the soil. Now we've got some real farmers like Dieter growing lots of plants more or less naturally, and they have certainly earned a place on "the map." And those of us who have worked on the soil, have grown used to having our fondest assumptions bite the dust before the reality of nature as it is played out on our little squares of earth.

                    It is an amazing thing that food for humans grows at all amid the forbs and grasses fit for cows; it is an evolutionary wonder that we did not have to develop the cud-chewing capacity and multiplex stomach of the ruminants; instead we developed (with the help of nature) our own kind of food. Reverence, therefore, rather than contempt or indifference is the proper stance for us as we view the handiwork of generations of human plant breeders and farmers of all persuasions, whose names and provenance we will never know, that gave us bok choy, tomatoes, peaches, buckwheat, and all the rest of the foods that grace our tables today.
                    We benefit from all their meddling, their serendipity, their failures, their blood sweat and tears.

                    Bob Monie
                    New Orleans, La 70119







                    Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                    Larry,

                    Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don't
                    worry, we are not at each other's throat, it's all very civilized.

                    I wouldn't write off NF, or organic no-till, as a commercial
                    non-starter. Even though it may not be possible to adapt
                    it to many places in the way originally envisaged by Fukuoka.
                    Other than difficult climatic conditions, there are also
                    economic and regulatory conditions, especially in the
                    industrialized West, which make it hard for farmers to
                    go this way.

                    Anyway, I think Fukuoka is still a source of inspiration to
                    many, even in regard to practical gardening/farming matters.
                    There undoubtedly also is the philosophical and spiritual
                    dimension to Fukuoka. I feel in tune with many of his ideas
                    in this respect too. Yet, used in a "dogmatic" way this
                    tends to stifle pragmatic discussions about the question
                    of how to put NF into practice. That, I think is a tragedy.

                    We don't only face a climatic melt down, but unnoticed
                    by many, this goes hand in hand with the contamination of
                    the food chain with innumerable toxic substances that will
                    kill us all sooner or later and a loss of organic matter in
                    agricultural soils on which all live on this planet depends.
                    If NF cannot contribute anything in practical terms to
                    solving these problems, then we might as well forget all
                    about it.

                    Dieter Brand
                    Portugal

                    Lawrence <lawrence@...> wrote:
                    Jamie Nicole wrote:
                    > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

                    Dieter Brand wrote:
                    I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
                    are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
                    is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
                    of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
                    developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

                    You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
                    same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
                    though limited.

                    To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
                    perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
                    living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
                    being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
                    otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
                    of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

                    For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
                    Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
                    quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
                    website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
                    this month.

                    Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
                    methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
                    only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
                    modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
                    because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
                    work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
                    commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
                    commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
                    aeroponics, etc.

                    I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
                    add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
                    more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
                    either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

                    Larry

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                  • pattyloof
                    ... clearer. I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend. Patty
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                      > I have clearly explained
                      > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
                      > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any
                      clearer.


                      I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend.

                      Patty
                    • Dieter Brand
                      Patty, No offence at all. I was saying that, as far as I could see, if ants can find shelter they will multiply in direct proportion to the food available and
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                        Patty,

                        No offence at all. I was saying that, as far as I could
                        see, if ants can find shelter they will multiply in direct
                        proportion to the food available and that in this region,
                        predators, even if they exist elsewhere, didn't have
                        a significant impact on ants.

                        I live on a heavy clay soil, that is ideal for building
                        rammed earth constructions, ants take advantage of
                        this by building extensive tunnels underground. They
                        mainly live on seeds, even though they will also
                        collect dead insects and other things. And since
                        there are plenty of seeds from grass and weeds
                        they have been able to prosper and multiply. Similar
                        conditions have led to large ant populations all around
                        probably since time immemorial, except, in places with
                        sandy soil where ants can't build their tunnels.

                        But as I said, I don't see ants as a pest, they can be
                        a nuisance at times, but they also fulfil many useful
                        functions.

                        Dieter

                        pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                        > I have clearly explained
                        > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
                        > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any
                        clearer.

                        I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend.

                        Patty






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