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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Regarding White Ant problem.

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  • Dieter Brand
    ... We live in a age of communication in which information arrives everywhere instantaneously and all the time without respite. On the downside, most don t
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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      > It would be interesting to see what happened to Dieter's 30 acres
      > before the ants arrived, but we might never know the cause of the ants
      > being there.

      We live in a age of communication in which information arrives everywhere
      instantaneously and all the time without respite.

      On the downside, most don't bother to read other peoples comments or
      to try and understand what they mean. Most are mainly interested in
      picking out fragments to broadcast their own received ideas. The above
      is an excellent example illustrating this point. I have clearly explained
      why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
      experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any clearer.

      To "have a theory" based on something one has read on Google or
      someplace else and to "have practical experience" are two very different
      things.

      The often repeated idea that "nature will fix all" is only applicable if we
      view the land without people. People need to eat, hence they need to
      intervene to grow food since most of us have a digestive track different
      from that of cows who are able to live on grass and weeds (in most
      places even cows can't survive without a little help from us humans).

      Patty, Calin et al., I'm not picking on you, I'm sure you mean well.
      I'm just commenting in a general way on a line of thought that keeps
      on popping up on many EcAg groups and most of all on this list,
      and which I feel is not helpful in solving the practical problems of
      those who try to put natural farming or other types of alternative
      farming methods into praxis.

      Today, 60 years after Fukuoka first developed his type of natural
      farming, 30 years after it was first published and more than 5 years
      after this group was set up to try and discuss the adoption of
      natural farming to different environments, Natural Farming, for
      all intents and practical purposes, might as well not exist as
      a way of growing food to feed people. Why is that? I believe
      the tendency to put "ideas" above "practice" has something
      to do with it.

      Do comment if you disagree (also if you agree), you are even
      welcome to pick my statements to pieces to argue your point,
      we all do. But it may not be a mistake to try and understand
      the point I'm trying to make.

      Dieter Brand
      Portugal



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    • monica kumar
      hii, im monica.i would like to cultivate vanilla in my garden.can u tell me some information about its cultivation? ... From: Dieter Brand
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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        hii,
        im monica.i would like to cultivate vanilla in my garden.can u tell me some information about its cultivation?



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: Dieter Brand <diebrand@...>
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Thursday, 3 January, 2008 4:22:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Regarding White Ant problem.

        > It would be interesting to see what happened to Dieter's 30 acres
        > before the ants arrived, but we might never know the cause of the ants
        > being there.

        We live in a age of communication in which information arrives everywhere
        instantaneously and all the time without respite.

        On the downside, most don't bother to read other peoples comments or
        to try and understand what they mean. Most are mainly interested in
        picking out fragments to broadcast their own received ideas. The above
        is an excellent example illustrating this point. I have clearly explained
        why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
        experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any clearer.

        To "have a theory" based on something one has read on Google or
        someplace else and to "have practical experience" are two very different
        things.

        The often repeated idea that "nature will fix all" is only applicable if we
        view the land without people. People need to eat, hence they need to
        intervene to grow food since most of us have a digestive track different
        from that of cows who are able to live on grass and weeds (in most
        places even cows can't survive without a little help from us humans).

        Patty, Calin et al., I'm not picking on you, I'm sure you mean well.
        I'm just commenting in a general way on a line of thought that keeps
        on popping up on many EcAg groups and most of all on this list,
        and which I feel is not helpful in solving the practical problems of
        those who try to put natural farming or other types of alternative
        farming methods into praxis.

        Today, 60 years after Fukuoka first developed his type of natural
        farming, 30 years after it was first published and more than 5 years
        after this group was set up to try and discuss the adoption of
        natural farming to different environments, Natural Farming, for
        all intents and practical purposes, might as well not exist as
        a way of growing food to feed people. Why is that? I believe
        the tendency to put "ideas" above "practice" has something
        to do with it.

        Do comment if you disagree (also if you agree), you are even
        welcome to pick my statements to pieces to argue your point,
        we all do. But it may not be a mistake to try and understand
        the point I'm trying to make.

        Dieter Brand
        Portugal


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      • Jamie Nicol
        Dear Dieter, I can quite understand your frustration, I have also spent time on and off over the last 6 or so years writing sometimes long-windedly, sometimes
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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          Dear Dieter, I can quite understand your frustration, I have also spent time
          on and off over the last 6 or so years writing sometimes long-windedly,
          sometimes tersely and sometimes playfully, all in the hope that some*one*
          at least might understand.

          It never seemed to happen.

          I realised a few years ago that this was because I hadn't understood what
          Fukuoka was actually saying.

          I look back now with embarrassment at the first few years of my posts to
          this group, I took so long to explain everything so clearly without ever
          understanding Fukuoka.

          I wonder if we might meet up one day when I'm sure we would communicate so
          much better than we can through this disembodied medium?

          But all we have for now are these electronic words, which seperate us from
          what we actually mean to say...so...

          Nature will not *fix* anything because nothing is broken - this is a human
          conceptualisation inspired from our dualisation of human's and nature.
          This is not an EcoAg list as Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all -
          as Fukuoka makes clear in all his books, and having access to his words on
          Med NF you must know this.
          NF is not an attempt at 'growing food to feed people' - "Even if we do
          nothing nature will save us."

          Jamie
          Mas Franch and Souscayrous





          On 1/3/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
          >
          > > It would be interesting to see what happened to Dieter's 30 acres
          > > before the ants arrived, but we might never know the cause of the ants
          > > being there.
          >
          > We live in a age of communication in which information arrives everywhere
          > instantaneously and all the time without respite.
          >
          > On the downside, most don't bother to read other peoples comments or
          > to try and understand what they mean. Most are mainly interested in
          > picking out fragments to broadcast their own received ideas. The above
          > is an excellent example illustrating this point. I have clearly explained
          > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
          > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any clearer.
          >
          > To "have a theory" based on something one has read on Google or
          > someplace else and to "have practical experience" are two very different
          > things.
          >
          > The often repeated idea that "nature will fix all" is only applicable if
          > we
          > view the land without people. People need to eat, hence they need to
          > intervene to grow food since most of us have a digestive track different
          > from that of cows who are able to live on grass and weeds (in most
          > places even cows can't survive without a little help from us humans).
          >
          > Patty, Calin et al., I'm not picking on you, I'm sure you mean well.
          > I'm just commenting in a general way on a line of thought that keeps
          > on popping up on many EcAg groups and most of all on this list,
          > and which I feel is not helpful in solving the practical problems of
          > those who try to put natural farming or other types of alternative
          > farming methods into praxis.
          >
          > Today, 60 years after Fukuoka first developed his type of natural
          > farming, 30 years after it was first published and more than 5 years
          > after this group was set up to try and discuss the adoption of
          > natural farming to different environments, Natural Farming, for
          > all intents and practical purposes, might as well not exist as
          > a way of growing food to feed people. Why is that? I believe
          > the tendency to put "ideas" above "practice" has something
          > to do with it.
          >
          > Do comment if you disagree (also if you agree), you are even
          > welcome to pick my statements to pieces to argue your point,
          > we all do. But it may not be a mistake to try and understand
          > the point I'm trying to make.
          >
          > Dieter Brand
          > Portugal
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dieter Brand
          ... Jamie, I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming, is ... And no
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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            > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

            Jamie,

            I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
            are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
            is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
            of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
            developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

            If you decide that farming is not for you, that is quite alright, nobody
            is forced to become a farmer. But those without actual experience
            of growing their own food usually do not appreciate the difficulties
            involved. It is all too easy for city folks to criticize farmers for the way
            they work.

            Best wishes
            Dieter

            PS: No use complaining about disembodied forums, it is up to
            us to embody. But obviously, it takes at least two to dialogue.



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          • Jamie Nicol
            Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a methodless method and he came to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge. It is true that I
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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              Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method' and he came
              to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.

              It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden? When
              does a gardener become a farmer?)

              Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and what
              I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
              This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
              finger pointing at the moon.

              Jamie
              Mas Franch and Souscayrous


              On 1/3/08, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
              >
              > > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)
              >
              > Jamie,
              >
              > I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
              > are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
              > is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
              > of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
              > developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.
              >
              > If you decide that farming is not for you, that is quite alright, nobody
              > is forced to become a farmer. But those without actual experience
              > of growing their own food usually do not appreciate the difficulties
              > involved. It is all too easy for city folks to criticize farmers for the
              > way
              > they work.
              >
              > Best wishes
              > Dieter
              >
              > PS: No use complaining about disembodied forums, it is up to
              > us to embody. But obviously, it takes at least two to dialogue.
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it
              > now.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Lawrence
              ... Dieter Brand wrote: I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming, is
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                Jamie Nicole wrote:
                > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

                Dieter Brand wrote:
                I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
                are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
                is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
                of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
                developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

                You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
                same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
                though limited.

                To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
                perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
                living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
                being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
                otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
                of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

                For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
                Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
                quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
                website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
                this month.

                Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
                methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
                only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
                modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
                because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
                work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
                commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
                commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
                aeroponics, etc.

                I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
                add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
                more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
                either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

                Larry




                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dieter Brand
                Jamie, methodless method , you like these things, just as you like Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that someone else?) and so many other
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                  Jamie,

                  "methodless method", you like these things, just as you like
                  Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that
                  someone else?) and so many other icons of my distant youth.
                  We can throw ko-ans at each other until we drop dead.

                  When we caught the ox we can ride on his back to the market
                  square, and, in the end forget all about the ox. Then, words
                  will again mean what they always meant, farming will be
                  farming again.

                  Dieter

                  Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@...> wrote:
                  Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method' and he came
                  to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.

                  It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden? When
                  does a gardener become a farmer?)

                  Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and what
                  I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
                  This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
                  finger pointing at the moon.

                  Jamie
                  Mas Franch and Souscayrous


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                • Forest Shomer
                  Dieter: Yes, the problem in one word is: Ideology. The mind of the True Believer is so beguiled by concepts that it avoids practical experience that might
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                    Dieter:

                    Yes, the problem in one word is: Ideology.

                    The mind of the True Believer is so beguiled by concepts that it
                    avoids practical experience that might contradict belief. The
                    grasping tendency of that mind seizes upon a seductive "ism" and
                    attempts to defend itself against the challenges of reality, of
                    everyday life experience.

                    Here on this list, "most of all on this list" as you say, we have a
                    dynamic tension between the Orthodox and the Innovative. Neither will
                    successfully convince the other of its own point of view, mirroring
                    the tension that exists in the world at-large, which periodically
                    erupts into open conflict as one -ism attempts to purge another.
                    Ironically, it was the freedom from -ism, the beginner's mind of
                    Fukuoka, that attracted us here initially.

                    We're fortunate that the tension on this list is merely rhetorical.
                    From time to time there is actual communication across the divide and
                    we all may learn something; at most other times there is little
                    learning, more cheer-leading as polar positions get reinforced.

                    C'est la vie.

                    "Out beyond ideas of right and wrong
                    There is a field.
                    I'll meet you there."
                    --(Mevlana) Jelaluddin Rumi

                    This wisdom of nearly 800 years' antiquity provides guidance on how
                    we are to get along, to cooperate in order that there be a
                    FukuokaFarming listserve. Merely recognize an Ideology when it
                    arises, and if it bothers you that isn't your own, just scroll down
                    to the next message. Or patiently engage with it to help the group
                    get a bit closer to mutual understanding.

                    Truly,

                    Forest



                    >Thu Jan 3, 2008 2:52 am (PST)
                    >
                    >...To "have a theory" based on something one has read on Google or
                    >someplace else and to "have practical experience" are two very different
                    >things.
                    >
                    >The often repeated idea that "nature will fix all" is only applicable if we
                    >view the land without people. People need to eat, hence they need to
                    >intervene to grow food since most of us have a digestive track different
                    >from that of cows who are able to live on grass and weeds (in most
                    >places even cows can't survive without a little help from us humans).
                    >
                    >Patty, Calin et al., I'm not picking on you, I'm sure you mean well.
                    >I'm just commenting in a general way on a line of thought that keeps
                    >on popping up on many EcAg groups and most of all on this list,
                    >and which I feel is not helpful in solving the practical problems of
                    >those who try to put natural farming or other types of alternative
                    >farming methods into praxis.
                    >
                    >Today, 60 years after Fukuoka first developed his type of natural
                    >farming, 30 years after it was first published and more than 5 years
                    >after this group was set up to try and discuss the adoption of
                    >natural farming to different environments, Natural Farming, for
                    >all intents and practical purposes, might as well not exist as
                    >a way of growing food to feed people. Why is that? I believe
                    >the tendency to put "ideas" above "practice" has something
                    >to do with it.
                    >
                    >Do comment if you disagree (also if you agree) <snip>
                    >
                    >Dieter Brand
                    >Portugal


                    --
                    Inside Passage Seeds and Native Plant Services
                    Forest Shomer, owner
                    Port Townsend, WA, USA
                    inspass@...
                    http://www.insidepassageseeds.com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Dieter Brand
                    Larry, Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don t worry, we are not at each other s throat, it s all very civilized. I wouldn t write off NF, or
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                      Larry,

                      Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don't
                      worry, we are not at each other's throat, it's all very civilized.

                      I wouldn't write off NF, or organic no-till, as a commercial
                      non-starter. Even though it may not be possible to adapt
                      it to many places in the way originally envisaged by Fukuoka.
                      Other than difficult climatic conditions, there are also
                      economic and regulatory conditions, especially in the
                      industrialized West, which make it hard for farmers to
                      go this way.

                      Anyway, I think Fukuoka is still a source of inspiration to
                      many, even in regard to practical gardening/farming matters.
                      There undoubtedly also is the philosophical and spiritual
                      dimension to Fukuoka. I feel in tune with many of his ideas
                      in this respect too. Yet, used in a "dogmatic" way this
                      tends to stifle pragmatic discussions about the question
                      of how to put NF into practice. That, I think is a tragedy.

                      We don't only face a climatic melt down, but unnoticed
                      by many, this goes hand in hand with the contamination of
                      the food chain with innumerable toxic substances that will
                      kill us all sooner or later and a loss of organic matter in
                      agricultural soils on which all live on this planet depends.
                      If NF cannot contribute anything in practical terms to
                      solving these problems, then we might as well forget all
                      about it.

                      Dieter Brand
                      Portugal

                      Lawrence <lawrence@...> wrote:
                      Jamie Nicole wrote:
                      > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

                      Dieter Brand wrote:
                      I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
                      are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
                      is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
                      of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
                      developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

                      You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
                      same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
                      though limited.

                      To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
                      perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
                      living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
                      being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
                      otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
                      of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

                      For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
                      Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
                      quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
                      website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
                      this month.

                      Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
                      methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
                      only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
                      modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
                      because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
                      work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
                      commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
                      commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
                      aeroponics, etc.

                      I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
                      add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
                      more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
                      either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

                      Larry


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                    • Tradingpost
                      Jamie, isn t it american indian languages that don t have separate nouns and verbs? No thing is thought of separate from what it does or what you do with it.
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                        Jamie, isn't it american indian languages that don't have separate nouns
                        and verbs? No thing is thought of separate from what it does or what you do
                        with it. All is in flux, all is process. That is so different from western
                        concepts where we add fertilizer to soil and never see the networks of life
                        that make the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

                        paul tradingpost@...

                        Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
                        --Henry David Thoreau

                        *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                        On 1/3/2008 at 9:20 AM Dieter Brand wrote:

                        >Jamie,
                        >
                        > "methodless method", you like these things, just as you like
                        > Meister Eckehart, the dancing Wu-Li Masters (or was that
                        > someone else?) and so many other icons of my distant youth.
                        > We can throw ko-ans at each other until we drop dead.
                        >
                        > When we caught the ox we can ride on his back to the market
                        > square, and, in the end forget all about the ox. Then, words
                        > will again mean what they always meant, farming will be
                        > farming again.
                        >
                        > Dieter
                        >
                        >Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@...> wrote:
                        > Dear Dieter, Fukuoka used what he called a 'methodless method'
                        >and he came
                        >to it not through human ingenuity but by letting go all knowledge.
                        >
                        >It is true that I am not a farmer, although I farm (or is that garden?
                        When
                        >does a gardener become a farmer?)
                        >
                        >Words will always miss their target because they 'thing' the world and
                        what
                        >I'm trying to express is no 'thing' at all.
                        >This is as true of a book as it is of an email discussion as it is of a
                        >finger pointing at the moon.
                        >
                        >Jamie
                        >Mas Franch and Souscayrous
                        >
                      • Robert Monie
                        Hi Larry, Let me second Dieter s welcome back. One update long overdue on your site is to expand the stars section. When that sidereal mapping was made,
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
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                          Hi Larry,

                          Let me second Dieter's welcome back. One update long overdue on your site is to expand the "stars" section. When that sidereal mapping was made, most of us were "seeing stars"; that is, growing stuff in our imagination rather than the soil. Now we've got some real farmers like Dieter growing lots of plants more or less naturally, and they have certainly earned a place on "the map." And those of us who have worked on the soil, have grown used to having our fondest assumptions bite the dust before the reality of nature as it is played out on our little squares of earth.

                          It is an amazing thing that food for humans grows at all amid the forbs and grasses fit for cows; it is an evolutionary wonder that we did not have to develop the cud-chewing capacity and multiplex stomach of the ruminants; instead we developed (with the help of nature) our own kind of food. Reverence, therefore, rather than contempt or indifference is the proper stance for us as we view the handiwork of generations of human plant breeders and farmers of all persuasions, whose names and provenance we will never know, that gave us bok choy, tomatoes, peaches, buckwheat, and all the rest of the foods that grace our tables today.
                          We benefit from all their meddling, their serendipity, their failures, their blood sweat and tears.

                          Bob Monie
                          New Orleans, La 70119







                          Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                          Larry,

                          Welcome back! Thanks for trying to mediate, but don't
                          worry, we are not at each other's throat, it's all very civilized.

                          I wouldn't write off NF, or organic no-till, as a commercial
                          non-starter. Even though it may not be possible to adapt
                          it to many places in the way originally envisaged by Fukuoka.
                          Other than difficult climatic conditions, there are also
                          economic and regulatory conditions, especially in the
                          industrialized West, which make it hard for farmers to
                          go this way.

                          Anyway, I think Fukuoka is still a source of inspiration to
                          many, even in regard to practical gardening/farming matters.
                          There undoubtedly also is the philosophical and spiritual
                          dimension to Fukuoka. I feel in tune with many of his ideas
                          in this respect too. Yet, used in a "dogmatic" way this
                          tends to stifle pragmatic discussions about the question
                          of how to put NF into practice. That, I think is a tragedy.

                          We don't only face a climatic melt down, but unnoticed
                          by many, this goes hand in hand with the contamination of
                          the food chain with innumerable toxic substances that will
                          kill us all sooner or later and a loss of organic matter in
                          agricultural soils on which all live on this planet depends.
                          If NF cannot contribute anything in practical terms to
                          solving these problems, then we might as well forget all
                          about it.

                          Dieter Brand
                          Portugal

                          Lawrence <lawrence@...> wrote:
                          Jamie Nicole wrote:
                          > ... Fukuoka_Farming is not about farming at all ... (snip)

                          Dieter Brand wrote:
                          I guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one, if words
                          are to have a meaning then natural farming is farming, is farming,
                          is ... And no matter what interpretation we may attribute to some
                          of Fukuoka's words, the man grew his food by an ingenious method
                          developed in years of meticulous and painstaking efforts.

                          You don't have to disagree, just understand that you are talking about the
                          same thing from two different perspectives, both of them accurate and valid
                          though limited.

                          To some, Fukuoka Farming is (or can be) a method for growing food (Dieter's
                          perspective). To others it can be a philosophical way of life or approach to
                          living that uses growing food as a vehicle or means to achieving a state of
                          being more closely in tune with nature and natual processes than might
                          otherwise be possible (Jamie's perspective).If I misrepresented either one
                          of you in this paragraph I apologize and would welcome correction.

                          For those of you who don't know me, I'm the person who set up the Fukuoka
                          Farming website (www.fukuokafarmingol.info). Haven't done anything to it for
                          quite some time because of matters somewhat unrelated to the topic of the
                          website, but I think I'm at a point where I'll be working on it again later
                          this month.

                          Personally, from what I've seen, heard and experienced I think Fukuoka's
                          methods are useful in food production to a point, but only to a point. The
                          only farm I know of that used Fukuoka's methods without
                          modification/adjustment was Fukuoka's farm, which no longer uses his methods
                          because they eventually turned out to be not commercially competitive. The
                          work done by Emilia Hazelip and others to adapt/employ his methods to create
                          commercially viable market gardens shows more promise for sustained,
                          commercial food production. But then so does hydroponics, aquaponics,
                          aeroponics, etc.

                          I'm going to be changing the website. Probably leave what's there there and
                          add other stuff. I'm totally open to suggestions on how to make the website
                          more useful. If any of you have any ideas for this then please let me know
                          either through this forum or directly at "L at haftl dot com".

                          Larry

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                        • pattyloof
                          ... clearer. I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend. Patty
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                            > I have clearly explained
                            > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
                            > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any
                            clearer.


                            I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend.

                            Patty
                          • Dieter Brand
                            Patty, No offence at all. I was saying that, as far as I could see, if ants can find shelter they will multiply in direct proportion to the food available and
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 3, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Patty,

                              No offence at all. I was saying that, as far as I could
                              see, if ants can find shelter they will multiply in direct
                              proportion to the food available and that in this region,
                              predators, even if they exist elsewhere, didn't have
                              a significant impact on ants.

                              I live on a heavy clay soil, that is ideal for building
                              rammed earth constructions, ants take advantage of
                              this by building extensive tunnels underground. They
                              mainly live on seeds, even though they will also
                              collect dead insects and other things. And since
                              there are plenty of seeds from grass and weeds
                              they have been able to prosper and multiply. Similar
                              conditions have led to large ant populations all around
                              probably since time immemorial, except, in places with
                              sandy soil where ants can't build their tunnels.

                              But as I said, I don't see ants as a pest, they can be
                              a nuisance at times, but they also fulfil many useful
                              functions.

                              Dieter

                              pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                              > I have clearly explained
                              > why there are ants in one place and not in another based on first hand
                              > experience for over 10 years. I don't think, I can make it any
                              clearer.

                              I must have missed it then. Sorry to offend.

                              Patty






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