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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: PV Economics

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  • Dieter Brand
    Peter, ... That indeed is an hypothesis! I haven t seen it done. Dieter ... Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 29, 2007
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      Peter,

      >My hypothesis is that the biggest bang for the buck, by an order of at
      >least one magnitude, is to buy agricultural land and burn (in one way or
      >another) some of the carbon that is being fixed on it.

      That indeed is an hypothesis! I haven't seen it done.

      Dieter


      ---------------------------------
      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter the
      I just became aware of a new (November 1, 2007) book on small-scale alcohol production, 640 pages, aun update on the author s 1983 work :
      Message 2 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
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        I just became aware of a new (November 1, 2007) book on small-scale
        alcohol production, 640 pages, aun update on the author's 1983 work :

        http://www.amazon.com/Alcohol-Can-Be-Gas-David-Blume/dp/0979043778

        We had an earlier discussion about Solargas:

        http://soilandhealth.org/copyform.aspx?bookcode=030223

        ... with some questions about celulosic alcohol below.


        Has anybody read David Blume? Is there anything new in the book,
        especially on cellulose? Are the 640 pages just stuff-and-fluff, or do
        they contribute nontrivially over the solagas book? Is the book worth the
        $35 that it sells for?


        The TOC [http://www.permaculture.com/node/186%5d and some of the reviews
        seem enticing:


        "Make no mistake, the book is more than a bully pulpit for championing
        sociopolitical opinions on global-energy woes; it is a technical how-to
        book. Written with enterprising do-it-yourselfers in mind, Blume offers
        countless hands-on technical solutions ranging from home stills to
        for-profit manufacturing strategies, and builds chapters on detailed
        charts, graphs, and step-by-step building instructions, giving
        activist-minded readers the data and resources they need to implement
        personal and individualized energy solutions. A well-executed, socially
        conscious, proactive, and rigorous call to action."


        --Peter.


        On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter the Soil & Health Fan wrote:

        | Background: Under some assumptions, a hectare (1 ha = 2.5 acres) of
        | productive ecosystem fixes 15 MT/yr of above-ground carbon, with energy of
        | 60,000 kWh/year. If we assume 1000 hr/yr of "equivalent solar panel time,"
        | 1 ha is as productive as a 60kW installation, which in the US would cost
        | close to half a milion. Go figure.
        |
        |

        [...]

        | *) A "solargas" operation would seem to store some of the carbon
        | energy as alcohols, which arguably can be exported for energy value.
        | However, that requires starch/sugar-rich crops.
        |
        | ?) what are the best-performing starch/sugar field crops
        |
        | ?) how about cellulosic solargas -- any success stories
        |
        | *) How do we run a computer on straw?
        |


        On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, Peter the Soil & Health Fan wrote:

        | The description is in the Homesteading subsection of the Persolnal
        | Sovereignty section of the library:
        |
        | http://soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/0302homested.html
        |
        | The book request itself is at:
        |
        | http://soilandhealth.org/copyform.aspx?bookcode=030223
        |

        | | Peter the Soil & Health Fan <snh_fan@...> wrote:
        | | On Thu, 29 Jun 2006, Steve Solomon <stsolomo@...> wrote:
        | |
        | | | Title: Solargas.
        | | |
        | | | Significance: points out that the problem of energy scarcity is mostly
        | | | one of sociopolitical manipulation; that any energetic and half-way
        | | | bright person with a bit of resources behind them (small farm) can
        | | | produce a huge surplus of ethyl, all ongoing refining and processing
        | | | powered by the sun, using recycled equipment.
        |
        | [...]
        |
        | |
        | | On p.31 of the "Solargas" book, there is a section "Producing Alchohol
        | | Fuel from Wood and Waste Paper" that has as the only insightful snippet:
        | |
        | | "... cellulose material can be broken down by the addition of a fungus,
        | | trichonderma viride ..."
        | |
        | | OK, does that solve the cellulosic ethanol problem?
        | |
        | | Seems like this is quite an actively researched issue that has no widely
        | | known solution outside the latter sentence.
        | |
        | | From a cursory google search, it seems that trichonderma viride exists,
        | | and is sometimes used to digest cotton (as in "stone-washed" jeans).
        | |
        | | Can trichonderma viride work for a brew of weed stalks? Straw? Corn
        | | stalks? Where does one get starter culture?
      • shivnarayan gour
        DEAR FRIENDS, GREETINGS WISHING YOU A HAPPY & PROSOEROUS NEW YEAR 2008 Shivnarayan Gour shivnarayangour@gmail.com Mo. 094254 33229
        Message 3 of 30 , Dec 31, 2007
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          DEAR FRIENDS,

          GREETINGS

          WISHING YOU A HAPPY

          &

          PROSOEROUS NEW YEAR 2008

          Shivnarayan Gour
          shivnarayangour@...
          Mo. 094254 33229
          www.khetkhaliyan.blogspot.com


          Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
        • Raju Titus
          Dear Shivnarayan, Nice to see you in this group. How are you and family ? SAME TO YOU Shalini and Raju ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
          Message 4 of 30 , Dec 31, 2007
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            Dear Shivnarayan,
            Nice to see you in this group. How are you and family ?
            SAME TO YOU
            Shalini and Raju


            On 12/31/07, shivnarayan gour <shivnarayangour@...> wrote:
            >
            > DEAR FRIENDS,
            >
            > GREETINGS
            >
            > WISHING YOU A HAPPY
            >
            > &
            >
            > PROSOEROUS NEW YEAR 2008
            >
            > Shivnarayan Gour
            > shivnarayangour@... <shivnarayangour%40gmail.com>
            > Mo. 094254 33229
            > www.khetkhaliyan.blogspot.com
            >
            > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on
            > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • michael
            Dieter, I haven t been reading the list since November. Too busy doing solar stuff. We moved from the city 30 years ago this July. And, yes, we did it
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 15, 2008
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              Dieter,

              I haven't been reading the list since November. Too busy doing solar
              stuff.

              We moved from the city 30 years ago this July. And, yes, we did it
              ourselves. This was a patch of thistles.
              Gardening, yes. By the second year, we had a market garden and
              supplied restaurants in the city. (This was before I discovered
              Fukuoka.)
              Farming, yes, but only in the sense of our needs, not for sale.
              Food, I think you meant preservation, yes, although we've made this
              much less energy intensive since then. Those books were antiquated.
              House building, yes, but it took 8 years. A very patient partner is
              required.
              Cutting trees, yes; the wood in the house comes from our land, and we
              still have choice pieces of 8/4 set aside for whatever furniture.
              Cutting trees, yes; the scraps are cut into firewood and we've heated
              ourselves with it for 30 years.
              Making furniture, no; we have two neighbors 4 miles away that like
              to do it and do a good job using our wood.
              Water purification, not really; we filter our well water for radon
              but I would not call that purification.
              Plumbing, yes, and I am finally really good at it after the solar
              thermal system. I even managed to buy the copper before it became
              priced like gold. It took me 5 years to buy enough.
              Waste water treatment, no; it is required by law that we use licensed
              people for this. Pretty simple, really, but they want a person with
              a license.
              Electrical, yes; it was the only part I understood well in the
              beginning, although I did a little overkill that has since been to
              our benefit - I am able to control circuits in use. There is no
              energy conservation as final as a circuit which does not work unless
              the sun shines.
              Solar, yes; wind, no. I don't believe in wind power here; too hard
              to regulate, too spotty here, and too many moving parts - meaning
              maintenance. It's ok for others, just not me.
              Telecom, yes; a couple of poles and the wireless technology of the
              past 10 years have made it much simpler than the old days.
              Maintaining basic machinery, yes, have to; every time I ask someone
              else to do it, it comes back worse than when it left. But, I've had
              a wrench in my hand since I was 3.
              Car, yes, more machinery. I am tired of all this machinery but don't
              see a way around it yet. I am imagining a simple electrical all-
              around vehicle that I can plug into the PV panels.
              Each of these do take a lifetime, the same lifetime, and I can't
              think of a better way to 'spend' a lifetime. Amazing what gets done
              when you're at it a little every day. Beats flailing around in the
              city, or whatever people do going from box to box there.

              That being said, I appreciate the enormity of your undertaking. But
              what else would you do with your time?
              - Michael

              On Nov 29, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Dieter Brand wrote:

              > I don't want to comment on your declarations in detail, except
              > perhaps to say that some of it sounds good on paper, but trying
              > to put it into practice is quite a different cattle of fish. For
              > example,
              > the demand that "you must build it yourself". Sounds nice! But did
              > you try? We moved out here from the city ten years ago, there
              > was nothing, and there still isn't very much. But do you have any
              > idea what it means to start learning: gardening, farming, food
              > conservation and processing, house building, cutting trees, making
              > furniture, water purification, plumbing, waste water treatment,
              > electrical installations, solar and wind energy, telecom
              > installations,
              > maintaining basic machinery, the car .......... and that all at once?
              > Each one of these could take you a lifetime.
              >
              > Dieter Brand
              > Portugal



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Dieter Brand
              Michael, That sounds like a great experience. I didn t think there were people like that any longer. I hope you will stay on the list for a while, for purely
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
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                Michael,

                That sounds like a great experience. I didn't think there were people
                like that any longer. I hope you will stay on the list for a while, for purely
                selfish reasons of course, since it may allow us to benefit from your
                experience.

                Since you mentioned telecoms. That is one point I haven't been able
                to find a satisfactory solution for. In my parts they put in satellite links
                instead of landlines. Unfortunately, the system doesn't allow for the
                Internet. I have been using the mobile service, but being in the middle
                between two base stations, where the signal is the weakest, and at
                the bottom of a valley, where there is no signal without external
                antenna, the setup is precarious with the signal fading in and out.
                I know in the US there are relay stations for private use, but they
                probably wouldn't work with the different frequencies in Europe. Do
                you know of any such system that might work in Europe?

                >That being said, I appreciate the enormity of your undertaking.
                >But what else would you do with your time?

                Hm, perhaps you have got a point there. Who would want to go
                back to the rat race after life in the big wide open nature with not
                single car engine to be heard far and near. But fixing things can
                get a bit too much at times. I have a huge list of things to do
                which I try not to think about so as not to sink into utter despair.

                Dieter

                michael <mdearing@...> wrote:
                Dieter,

                I haven't been reading the list since November. Too busy doing solar
                stuff.

                We moved from the city 30 years ago this July. And, yes, we did it
                ourselves. This was a patch of thistles.
                Gardening, yes. By the second year, we had a market garden and
                supplied restaurants in the city. (This was before I discovered
                Fukuoka.)
                Farming, yes, but only in the sense of our needs, not for sale.
                Food, I think you meant preservation, yes, although we've made this
                much less energy intensive since then. Those books were antiquated.
                House building, yes, but it took 8 years. A very patient partner is
                required.
                Cutting trees, yes; the wood in the house comes from our land, and we
                still have choice pieces of 8/4 set aside for whatever furniture.
                Cutting trees, yes; the scraps are cut into firewood and we've heated
                ourselves with it for 30 years.
                Making furniture, no; we have two neighbors 4 miles away that like
                to do it and do a good job using our wood.
                Water purification, not really; we filter our well water for radon
                but I would not call that purification.
                Plumbing, yes, and I am finally really good at it after the solar
                thermal system. I even managed to buy the copper before it became
                priced like gold. It took me 5 years to buy enough.
                Waste water treatment, no; it is required by law that we use licensed
                people for this. Pretty simple, really, but they want a person with
                a license.
                Electrical, yes; it was the only part I understood well in the
                beginning, although I did a little overkill that has since been to
                our benefit - I am able to control circuits in use. There is no
                energy conservation as final as a circuit which does not work unless
                the sun shines.
                Solar, yes; wind, no. I don't believe in wind power here; too hard
                to regulate, too spotty here, and too many moving parts - meaning
                maintenance. It's ok for others, just not me.
                Telecom, yes; a couple of poles and the wireless technology of the
                past 10 years have made it much simpler than the old days.
                Maintaining basic machinery, yes, have to; every time I ask someone
                else to do it, it comes back worse than when it left. But, I've had
                a wrench in my hand since I was 3.
                Car, yes, more machinery. I am tired of all this machinery but don't
                see a way around it yet. I am imagining a simple electrical all-
                around vehicle that I can plug into the PV panels.
                Each of these do take a lifetime, the same lifetime, and I can't
                think of a better way to 'spend' a lifetime. Amazing what gets done
                when you're at it a little every day. Beats flailing around in the
                city, or whatever people do going from box to box there.

                That being said, I appreciate the enormity of your undertaking. But
                what else would you do with your time?
                - Michael

                On Nov 29, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                > I don't want to comment on your declarations in detail, except
                > perhaps to say that some of it sounds good on paper, but trying
                > to put it into practice is quite a different cattle of fish. For
                > example,
                > the demand that "you must build it yourself". Sounds nice! But did
                > you try? We moved out here from the city ten years ago, there
                > was nothing, and there still isn't very much. But do you have any
                > idea what it means to start learning: gardening, farming, food
                > conservation and processing, house building, cutting trees, making
                > furniture, water purification, plumbing, waste water treatment,
                > electrical installations, solar and wind energy, telecom
                > installations,
                > maintaining basic machinery, the car .......... and that all at once?
                > Each one of these could take you a lifetime.
                >
                > Dieter Brand
                > Portugal

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                ---------------------------------
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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • michael
                First thing to do is get rid of the list. It took me ten years to do this. I don t know why it took me so long to figure out the list was the problem. Lists
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
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                  First thing to do is get rid of the list. It took me ten years to do
                  this. I don't know why it took me so long to figure out the list was
                  the problem. Lists will capture you in the past and torture you.
                  Lists are by nature historic. The things one must do are all in the
                  future until they arrive in the present. Let them arrive and work on
                  them as the solution presents itself. It will. If you try to do the
                  fix before its time, the fix will be more difficult, will not last,
                  or will cause some other thing to need fixing.
                  That being said, I do plan, and then throw away the plan. The
                  creation of the plan is what will create my future. No need to hang
                  on to the plan while the future unfolds. Do another plan instead,
                  based on your better understanding of what it is you have to do.
                  The longer you wait to do something, waiting until the solution or
                  fix is obvious, the better the job will be.
                  I always refer to this as the Fukuoka way of life because it is
                  similar to how my growing of green things has evolved and is
                  evolving It took me about the same ten years to figure out what
                  Fukuoka's OSE meant to me.
                  - Michael

                  On Feb 16, 2008, at 3:15 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                  > I have a huge list of things to do
                  > which I try not to think about so as not to sink into utter despair.
                  >
                  > Dieter



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • michael
                  If the satellites are KA band, there may be companies which provide the internet over satellite. There are in the US (look up wildblue.com). For the mobile
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
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                    If the satellites are KA band, there may be companies which provide
                    the internet over satellite. There are in the US (look up
                    wildblue.com).

                    For the mobile approach,
                    if you can get permission to put something on one of the hilltops,
                    you can put a GSM (I presume your mobile is GSM - most of EU is)
                    transceiver there. Then you can put a local transceiver (like what
                    is now being called 'femto' by the cell companies) there which is
                    made to bring a mobile signal inside a building whose walls it cannot
                    get through. Your mobile handset will then pick up that signal. Or
                    you can convert the mobile transceiver signal to a wireless signal
                    (433 MHz is the cheapest here but you have to research the EU
                    frequencies - I am sure such exists in the EU) and then pick up the
                    wireless signal. There are very directional antennas which you would
                    use, but you need to know the EU frequency that is allowed.

                    Everything that is made for CDMA in the US is probably matched by the
                    equivalent made for GSM in the EU. The Germans and the Israelis are
                    the leaders in making this stuff, so you might look around on the Web
                    there.

                    - michael

                    On Feb 16, 2008, at 3:15 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                    > Since you mentioned telecoms. That is one point I haven't been able
                    > to find a satisfactory solution for. In my parts they put in
                    > satellite links
                    > instead of landlines. Unfortunately, the system doesn't allow for the
                    > Internet. I have been using the mobile service, but being in the
                    > middle
                    > between two base stations, where the signal is the weakest, and at
                    > the bottom of a valley, where there is no signal without external
                    > antenna, the setup is precarious with the signal fading in and out.
                    > I know in the US there are relay stations for private use, but they
                    > probably wouldn't work with the different frequencies in Europe. Do
                    > you know of any such system that might work in Europe?



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