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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Fukuoka-Bonfils method

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  • Ingrid Bauer
    The use of black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) can help, but it can be invasive in soils with good moisture levels - perhaps there is a local nitrogen fixing
    Message 1 of 28 , Nov 21, 2007
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      The use of black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) can help, but it can
      be invasive in soils with good moisture levels - perhaps there is a
      local nitrogen fixing alternative alder perhaps (Alnus spp)?

      here what i am have to say about alders who grow spontanouslly after clear cutting of old growth forest in our aera ( coastal fir forest British colombia Canada) they are pionner trees regenerating the soil before coniferous can come back .

      I have been interplanting fruit and nut trees, berry bushes , vines and other plants ( mashua, kale jerusalem artichoke etc ...) in a young red alder forest for 8 years now .
      i have over the years killed some of the alders ( when they reach over 20 cm diameter especially) by girdling them and inseminating them with shitake mushroom , i let them standing for the woodpeckers to deal with.

      the soil is wonderfull under alders, they produce abondant mulch layer everyfall . they grow tall and spindly serving the role of intermediate canopy ( they are dwarfted by very tall ancient and sparse fir who dominate the upper story) the wood on the ground rot very quickly .

      draw back: their shade is important more than leguminous trees. they fall and break easelly in the winter storms damaging young planted trees .

      they can be coppiced for a while if you leave enough branches , they will eventually succomb to rot . once dead, pileated woodpecker and downy woodpeckers can digg a nest in the biggest, that will be eventually ,the following years, used by other species like screech owls or wood ducks.
      jean-claude



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • karoubas
      Hello Robin, Dieter, jean-claude and all, Thank you for your replies - it will take me sometime for me to read,- re read and really absorb what you are telling
      Message 2 of 28 , Nov 25, 2007
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        Hello Robin, Dieter, jean-claude and all,

        Thank you for your replies - it will take me sometime for me to read,-
        re read and really absorb what you are telling me/us - then I will
        figure out how I will incorporate this in my farm - again thank you
        for sharing your experiences.

        Its important from time to time to state the goals of natural farming.

        1. To be able to reforest large areas with minimum of labor, time and
        cost ( and minimum thinking)

        2. To be be able to regenerate the soil in a farm and hope it produces
        plenty of fruits and vegetables - again with all the above minimums

        I think that digging trenches and chasing after acacias in the farm
        may interfere with the above "minimum" requirements.

        I think that Fukuoka - San changed and evolved from the time he wrote
        the "One straw Revolution" to his last book "The Road Back to Nature"
        - we should be referring to his last book more often.

        These wonderful trees that Raju mentions - sababul acacia and the
        other nitrogen fixing trees on the invasive species list, may be the
        best hope we have to revegetate barren lands and deserts. I find it
        ironic that the trees that society/science has labeled as undesirables
        - will propably end up saving this much abused planet.

        Today I visited some of my wife's relatives about an hour away -they
        are an elderly couple in their 80's. The land around them is a flat
        plain without any large trees around - its plowed and bare. They told
        me that when their parents came into the area - the whole area was
        covered with large oak trees - over the years they removed all the oak
        trees and have been plowing the land ever since. The have used the
        chemical agriculture techniques to farm the land the results and
        familiar to us - nothing will grow on this once fertile land without
        fertilizers and pesticides. Their local water supply has been
        contaminated and they can longer drink the water from their area ( I
        do not know the exact cause of the contamination).


        For the reforestation project I used about 10 different types of tree
        seeds, which I collected from the trees around the city - most of them
        I think are different types of acacias - but in truth I do not know
        their names - I also added clover vetch wheat rocket and other
        vegetable seeds - in all there probably were about 30 types of seeds.
        As I said I am pleased with the results - I am waiting to see how
        the small trees will survive the winter frost and then how they will
        survive the August summer heat (I will add photos on the website soon).

        No matter what, I plan to make at least another 10,000 seed
        balls/disks this summer - we really have no other choice (other than
        seed balls) - if we want to revegetate large areas - planting large
        number of trees and watering them by hand is costly and time
        prohibitive - beside the failure rate is very large.

        Thank You
        Kostas






        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer" <instinct@...>
        wrote:
        >
        >
        > The use of black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) can help, but it can
        > be invasive in soils with good moisture levels - perhaps there is a
        > local nitrogen fixing alternative alder perhaps (Alnus spp)?
        >
        > here what i am have to say about alders who grow spontanouslly
        after clear cutting of old growth forest in our aera ( coastal fir
        forest British colombia Canada) they are pionner trees regenerating
        the soil before coniferous can come back .
        >
        > I have been interplanting fruit and nut trees, berry bushes ,
        vines and other plants ( mashua, kale jerusalem artichoke etc ...) in
        a young red alder forest for 8 years now .
        > i have over the years killed some of the alders ( when they reach
        over 20 cm diameter especially) by girdling them and inseminating them
        with shitake mushroom , i let them standing for the woodpeckers to
        deal with.
        >
        > the soil is wonderfull under alders, they produce abondant mulch
        layer everyfall . they grow tall and spindly serving the role of
        intermediate canopy ( they are dwarfted by very tall ancient and
        sparse fir who dominate the upper story) the wood on the ground rot
        very quickly .
        >
        > draw back: their shade is important more than leguminous trees.
        they fall and break easelly in the winter storms damaging young
        planted trees .
        >
        > they can be coppiced for a while if you leave enough branches ,
        they will eventually succomb to rot . once dead, pileated woodpecker
        and downy woodpeckers can digg a nest in the biggest, that will be
        eventually ,the following years, used by other species like screech
        owls or wood ducks.
        > jean-claude
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • karoubas
        Hello everyone I just updated the site http://www.naturalfarming.us/ with photos from the 2007 seeding project Kostas
        Message 3 of 28 , Nov 25, 2007
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          Hello everyone
          I just updated the site http://www.naturalfarming.us/
          with photos from the 2007 seeding project

          Kostas







          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "karoubas" <karoubas@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hello Robin, Dieter, jean-claude and all,
          >
          > Thank you for your replies - it will take me sometime for me to read,-
          > re read and really absorb what you are telling me/us - then I will
          > figure out how I will incorporate this in my farm - again thank you
          > for sharing your experiences.
          >
          > Its important from time to time to state the goals of natural farming.
          >
          > 1. To be able to reforest large areas with minimum of labor, time and
          > cost ( and minimum thinking)
          >
          > 2. To be be able to regenerate the soil in a farm and hope it produces
          > plenty of fruits and vegetables - again with all the above minimums
          >
          > I think that digging trenches and chasing after acacias in the farm
          > may interfere with the above "minimum" requirements.
          >
          > I think that Fukuoka - San changed and evolved from the time he wrote
          > the "One straw Revolution" to his last book "The Road Back to Nature"
          > - we should be referring to his last book more often.
          >
          > These wonderful trees that Raju mentions - sababul acacia and the
          > other nitrogen fixing trees on the invasive species list, may be the
          > best hope we have to revegetate barren lands and deserts. I find it
          > ironic that the trees that society/science has labeled as undesirables
          > - will propably end up saving this much abused planet.
          >
          > Today I visited some of my wife's relatives about an hour away -they
          > are an elderly couple in their 80's. The land around them is a flat
          > plain without any large trees around - its plowed and bare. They told
          > me that when their parents came into the area - the whole area was
          > covered with large oak trees - over the years they removed all the oak
          > trees and have been plowing the land ever since. The have used the
          > chemical agriculture techniques to farm the land the results and
          > familiar to us - nothing will grow on this once fertile land without
          > fertilizers and pesticides. Their local water supply has been
          > contaminated and they can longer drink the water from their area ( I
          > do not know the exact cause of the contamination).
          >
          >
          > For the reforestation project I used about 10 different types of tree
          > seeds, which I collected from the trees around the city - most of them
          > I think are different types of acacias - but in truth I do not know
          > their names - I also added clover vetch wheat rocket and other
          > vegetable seeds - in all there probably were about 30 types of seeds.
          > As I said I am pleased with the results - I am waiting to see how
          > the small trees will survive the winter frost and then how they will
          > survive the August summer heat (I will add photos on the website soon).
          >
          > No matter what, I plan to make at least another 10,000 seed
          > balls/disks this summer - we really have no other choice (other than
          > seed balls) - if we want to revegetate large areas - planting large
          > number of trees and watering them by hand is costly and time
          > prohibitive - beside the failure rate is very large.
          >
          > Thank You
          > Kostas
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer" <instinct@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > The use of black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) can help, but it can
          > > be invasive in soils with good moisture levels - perhaps there is a
          > > local nitrogen fixing alternative alder perhaps (Alnus spp)?
          > >
          > > here what i am have to say about alders who grow spontanouslly
          > after clear cutting of old growth forest in our aera ( coastal fir
          > forest British colombia Canada) they are pionner trees regenerating
          > the soil before coniferous can come back .
          > >
          > > I have been interplanting fruit and nut trees, berry bushes ,
          > vines and other plants ( mashua, kale jerusalem artichoke etc ...) in
          > a young red alder forest for 8 years now .
          > > i have over the years killed some of the alders ( when they reach
          > over 20 cm diameter especially) by girdling them and inseminating them
          > with shitake mushroom , i let them standing for the woodpeckers to
          > deal with.
          > >
          > > the soil is wonderfull under alders, they produce abondant mulch
          > layer everyfall . they grow tall and spindly serving the role of
          > intermediate canopy ( they are dwarfted by very tall ancient and
          > sparse fir who dominate the upper story) the wood on the ground rot
          > very quickly .
          > >
          > > draw back: their shade is important more than leguminous trees.
          > they fall and break easelly in the winter storms damaging young
          > planted trees .
          > >
          > > they can be coppiced for a while if you leave enough branches ,
          > they will eventually succomb to rot . once dead, pileated woodpecker
          > and downy woodpeckers can digg a nest in the biggest, that will be
          > eventually ,the following years, used by other species like screech
          > owls or wood ducks.
          > > jean-claude
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          > >
          >
        • pattyloof
          ... Great pictures! What kind of trees are those? Patty
          Message 4 of 28 , Nov 26, 2007
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            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "karoubas" <karoubas@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello everyone
            > I just updated the site http://www.naturalfarming.us/
            > with photos from the 2007 seeding project
            >
            > Kostas


            Great pictures! What kind of trees are those?

            Patty
          • karoubas
            Hello Patty, As I mentioned in the previous message I really don t know their names - some acacias. I collected seeds from the trees around the streets of
            Message 5 of 28 , Nov 26, 2007
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              Hello Patty,
              As I mentioned in the previous message I really don't know their names
              - some acacias. I collected seeds from the trees around the streets of
              Thessaloniki.

              Kostas



              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "pattyloof" <pattyloof@...> wrote:
              >
              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "karoubas" <karoubas@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello everyone
              > > I just updated the site http://www.naturalfarming.us/
              > > with photos from the 2007 seeding project
              > >
              > > Kostas
              >
              >
              > Great pictures! What kind of trees are those?
              >
              > Patty
              >
            • Peter the
              Thanks again, Jamie! Does anybody know where to get seeds for the Bonfils Winter Wheat Method? I am assuming that these are non-hybrid, and the grain can be
              Message 6 of 28 , Nov 27, 2007
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                Thanks again, Jamie!

                Does anybody know where to get seeds for the Bonfils Winter Wheat Method?
                I am assuming that these are non-hybrid, and the grain can be reused as
                seed the next year.

                What cultivars are there? Any discussion of their relative merits?

                Also, are there different cultivars of white clover that grow in Europe?

                --Peter.


                On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, onestrawresolution wrote:

                | Dear Peter, I forgot to mention the files section of this group for
                | more information on the Bonfils Winter Wheat Method - see Marc
                | Bonfils Agricultural research.
                |
                | Be careful about diminishing the productivity of one wheat harvest a
                | year - it was the move to a wheat/beet succession in Northern France,
                | which rapidly depletes and damages the soil that led Bonfils to
                | change the way of growing.
                |
                | We need to find a way to grow our crops while annually improving the
                | fertility of our soil. A temperate natural agriculture can do this
                | and match the productivity of commercial agriculture.
                |
                | The use of black locust (Robinia pseudoacacia) can help, but it can
                | be invasive in soils with good moisture levels - perhaps there is a
                | local nitrogen fixing alternative alder perhaps (Alnus spp)?
                |
                | Jamie
                | Souscayrous
                |
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