Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Subabul is probably Leucaena leucocephala

Expand Messages
  • Raju Titus
    Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos. Raju ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
      Raju

      On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Dieter,
      >
      > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
      > Haole" and
      > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
      > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
      > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
      > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
      >
      > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
      > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
      >
      > Bob Monie
      >
      > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
      > Raju,
      >
      > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
      > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
      > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
      > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
      > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
      > after being cut back to the ground?
      >
      > Dieter
      >
      > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
      > Dear friend,
      > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
      > 85-86.
      > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
      > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
      > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
      > etc.
      > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
      > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
      > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
      > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
      > strong,
      > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
      > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
      > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
      > crops do well in grass covered land.
      > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
      > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
      > Thanks
      > Raju
      >
      > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
      > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear Sir/List Members
      > >
      > >
      > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
      > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
      > let
      > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
      > >
      > > Regards
      > > Shashi
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
      > http://mail.yahoo.com
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Robert Monie
      Hi, If you Google the single word subabul, dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi,

        If you Google the single word "subabul," dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with Leucaena leucocephala or a new variety called Leucaena collensi. Almost none of them refer to the acacia variety you mentioned.
        Examples of Internet articles that equate subabul with Leucaena leucocephala include:

        Economics of subabul practice
        Bioevaluation of subabul
        Subabul toxicity in kids
        Subabul and eucalyptus
        Indian seed resources: A New Variety of subabul
        Subabul, an easy growing tree

        Obviously, the popular term subabul is not standardized in English and is subject to regional and dialectal differences. To avoid misunderstanding then, it would be best to use the
        Latin binomial designations for the various types of acacia rather than the variously interpreted "subabul."

        Bob Monie
        Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
        Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
        Raju

        On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Dieter,
        >
        > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
        > Haole" and
        > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
        > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
        > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
        > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
        >
        > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
        > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
        >
        > Bob Monie
        >
        > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
        > Raju,
        >
        > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
        > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
        > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
        > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
        > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
        > after being cut back to the ground?
        >
        > Dieter
        >
        > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
        > Dear friend,
        > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
        > 85-86.
        > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
        > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
        > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
        > etc.
        > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
        > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
        > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
        > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
        > strong,
        > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
        > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
        > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
        > crops do well in grass covered land.
        > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
        > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
        > Thanks
        > Raju
        >
        > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
        > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Sir/List Members
        > >
        > >
        > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
        > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
        > let
        > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
        > >
        > > Regards
        > > Shashi
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Monie
        Hi, If you Google the single word subabul, dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Hi,

          If you Google the single word "subabul," dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with Leucaena leucocephala or a new variety called Leucaena collensi. Almost none of them refer to the acacia variety you mentioned.
          Examples of Internet articles that equate subabul with Leucaena leucocephala include:

          Economics of subabul practice
          Bioevaluation of subabul
          Subabul toxicity in kids
          Subabul and eucalyptus
          Indian seed resources: A New Variety of subabul
          Subabul, an easy growing tree

          Obviously, the popular term subabul is not standardized in English and is subject to regional and dialectal differences. To avoid misunderstanding then, it would be best to use the
          Latin binomial designations for the various types of acacia rather than the variously interpreted "subabul."

          Bob Monie
          Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
          Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
          Raju

          On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Dieter,
          >
          > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
          > Haole" and
          > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
          > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
          > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
          > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
          >
          > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
          > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
          >
          > Bob Monie
          >
          > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
          > Raju,
          >
          > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
          > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
          > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
          > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
          > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
          > after being cut back to the ground?
          >
          > Dieter
          >
          > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
          > Dear friend,
          > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
          > 85-86.
          > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
          > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
          > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
          > etc.
          > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
          > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
          > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
          > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
          > strong,
          > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
          > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
          > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
          > crops do well in grass covered land.
          > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
          > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
          > Thanks
          > Raju
          >
          > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
          > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
          > >
          > > Dear Sir/List Members
          > >
          > >
          > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
          > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
          > let
          > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
          > >
          > > Regards
          > > Shashi
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Raju Titus
          Dear friend, You are correct there is lot of confusion in names.I checked plant in Google image I found it is Leucaena Leucocephala. I am also sending you
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear friend,
            You are correct there is lot of confusion in names.I checked plant in Google
            image I found it is Leucaena Leucocephala. I am also sending you
            photo.downloaded.
            RajuTitus


            On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>

            > Hi,
            >
            > If you Google the single word "subabul," dozens of links immediately pop
            > up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with
            > Leucaena leucocephala or a new variety called Leucaena collensi. Almost none
            > of them refer to the acacia variety you mentioned.
            > Examples of Internet articles that equate subabul with Leucaena
            > leucocephala include:
            >
            > Economics of subabul practice
            > Bioevaluation of subabul
            > Subabul toxicity in kids
            > Subabul and eucalyptus
            > Indian seed resources: A New Variety of subabul
            > Subabul, an easy growing tree
            >
            > Obviously, the popular term subabul is not standardized in English and is
            > subject to regional and dialectal differences. To avoid misunderstanding
            > then, it would be best to use the
            > Latin binomial designations for the various types of acacia rather than
            > the variously interpreted "subabul."
            >
            > Bob Monie
            > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
            > Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
            > Raju
            >
            > On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@... <bobm20001%40yahoo.com>>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Hi Dieter,
            > >
            > > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
            > > Haole" and
            > > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
            > > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
            > > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information
            > at
            > > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
            > >
            > > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
            > > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
            > >
            > > Bob Monie
            > >
            > > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com><diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
            > > Raju,
            > >
            > > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
            > > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
            > > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
            > > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
            > > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
            > > after being cut back to the ground?
            > >
            > > Dieter
            > >
            > > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com><rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
            > > Dear friend,
            > > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
            > > 85-86.
            > > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no
            > such
            > > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
            > > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
            > > etc.
            > > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed
            > in
            > > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
            > > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
            > > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
            > > strong,
            > > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
            > > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
            > > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
            > > crops do well in grass covered land.
            > > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
            > > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
            > > Thanks
            > > Raju
            > >
            > > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
            > shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
            > > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
            > shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear Sir/List Members
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for
            > that
            > > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
            > > let
            > > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
            > > >
            > > > Regards
            > > > Shashi
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > > __________________________________________________
            > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > > http://mail.yahoo.com
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Dieter Brand
            Thanks to Bob, Raju and Olivier, That was quick! Yes, plant naming can be tricky. Raju, do you have any pictures showing your fields before and after cutting
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Thanks to Bob, Raju and Olivier,

              That was quick! Yes, plant naming can be tricky.

              Raju, do you have any pictures showing your fields before and after
              cutting the Subabul (or Mearnsii)?. What is the spacing of the trees
              and how much can you cut them back?

              Dieter Brand
              Portugal

              Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
              Friends,
              Subabul is a Australian Acacia known as Mearnsii .In Natural Way of Farming
              Fukuoka used Morisima Acasia.Once it germinate send roots in deep and do not
              die after several time cutting.It germinate and survive by just broad
              casting direct seeding.It can be used where white clover is not
              available.Weare growing Rice/Wheat in the ground cover of
              subabul.Method is very simple we scatter seeds of crop in the standing cover
              of Subabul and when see that crop germinate sufficiently we cut back
              branches of Subabul and mulch on the germinating crop sparshly as Fukuoka
              spreading Rice straws on germinating Wheat.
              Raju

              On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hi Dieter,
              >
              > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
              > Haole" and
              > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
              > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
              > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
              > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
              >
              > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
              > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
              >
              > Bob Monie
              >
              > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
              > Raju,
              >
              > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
              > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
              > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
              > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
              > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
              > after being cut back to the ground?
              >
              > Dieter
              >
              > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
              > Dear friend,
              > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
              > 85-86.
              > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
              > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
              > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
              > etc.
              > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
              > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
              > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
              > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
              > strong,
              > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
              > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
              > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
              > crops do well in grass covered land.
              > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
              > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
              > Thanks
              > Raju
              >
              > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
              > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Sir/List Members
              > >
              > >
              > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
              > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
              > let
              > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > Shashi
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              Dear Shashi, This suggestion is based on reading and knowledge from this mailing list itself. Since your land is depleted you have to bring it to good
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 8, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Shashi,

                This suggestion is based on reading and knowledge from this mailing list itself.

                Since your land is depleted you have to bring it to good condition before completely leaving it to itself. I think you have to mulch your entire land using leaves of different plants and you can apply some cowdung above this to increase the decomposition. Mulching is better done before the monsoon rains.




                Regards,
                Nandan

                shashi.pkumar@... wrote:
                Dear Rajuji,

                Thank you very much for the reply.

                Currently am exploring weeds/plans what can grow well in saline land, the reason for this has been describer below.

                I bought 3 acres of (~1.2 hectares) of depleted land around 1 year back.

                Observations: Most of the land is saline(80% of total land), fails to soak rain water, and is void vegetation/tree cover.

                AIM: convert land good for sustainable agriculture

                What was done: This monsoon I scattered horse gram (100 KG), daiyancha (local plant which generates lot of mulch, it is a di-cotyledon)(120KG) and jute (120 KG) seeds during this monsoon. Also scattered good amount of Glirisedia, Subabul, Thandadi seeds.

                What else was done: Made a provision for logged water to drain out, hoping that it will take away the salinity.

                Results: So far it has been mixed bag. Jute failed grow beyond few inches and died, daiyancha grew for around 1.5 to 2 feet and died and horse gram has grown ok (in about 20% of the land) but only in the non saline land.

                Help I need: Please suggest/guide how can I get the land corrected may be in next couple of years. Please suggest a non chemical way of treating my land.

                Thank you very much for your help.

                Regards
                Shashi

                -----Original Message-----
                From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raju Titus
                Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:42 AM
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Clover - Indian Local Name

                Dear friend,
                I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
                White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong, deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous crops do well in grass covered land.
                Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                Thanks
                Raju

                On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Sir/List Members
                >
                >
                > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for
                > that matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you
                > please let know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                >
                > Regards
                > Shashi
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                Yahoo! Groups Links





                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Raju Titus
                Dear friend Nandan, Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow leguminous crops
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 8, 2007
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear friend Nandan,
                  Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover
                  crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow
                  leguminous crops like
                  Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                  But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass cover is essential Cow
                  pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as ground cover crop
                  seasonal.
                  .But we need permanent self seeding and growing variety as white clover and
                  Subabul which will cover land through out the year and will not allow any
                  weed to give problem.
                  "I want to share one story, one of my friend was very much worried about
                  strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was unable to take any crop
                  because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing. We explain him about
                  natural way of farming, he agreed for experimentation., we simply scattered
                  Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season and ask them to cut
                  back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been. He did accordingly, and
                  harvested better crop than near by farmers of village."

                  But next year he came back on modern scientific agriculture, with the
                  thought that if we can take good crop without doing any thing , we will get
                  more and more by doing more.This is the one of the reason for non adopting
                  Natural way of farming.
                  Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in Banglore.People are very much
                  against of this weed .People saying that this creating some diasease all
                  falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as ground cover in the
                  beginning later we can change as per our convenience.
                  RajuTitus







                  On 11/5/07, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Raju,
                  >
                  > Subabul does not provide any grains or fruits. Is it
                  > possible to use anything like Cowpea or blackgram ? At
                  > least I have heard of farmers using Cowpea in summer.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Nandan
                  >
                  > --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                  >
                  > > Dear friend,
                  > > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad
                  > > M.P. India since 85-86.
                  > > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is
                  > > leguminous. There is no such
                  > > weed is available which grows in abundance in our
                  > > place..So many indian
                  > > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such
                  > > as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                  > > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka
                  > > is using this weed in
                  > > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed
                  > > control,nitrogen
                  > > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic
                  > > mulching etc.
                  > > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul
                  > > (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
                  > > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned
                  > > uses.I found no any
                  > > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                  > > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground
                  > > cover and leguminous
                  > > crops do well in grass covered land.
                  > > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of
                  > > weeds we must learn
                  > > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                  > > Thanks
                  > > Raju
                  > >
                  > > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>
                  > > <shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Dear Sir/List Members
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Could you please let know local Indian name
                  > > (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                  > > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover?
                  > > Also, could you please let
                  > > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                  > > >
                  > > > Regards
                  > > > Shashi
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > > removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • robin
                  dear raju titus, ... essential Cow ... clover and ... allow any ... scattered ... accordingly, and ... will get ... adopting ... *********and also this is a
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 11, 2007
                  • 0 Attachment
                    dear raju titus,

                    ****this is very important, in my opinion, and bears repeating...********

                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear friend Nandan,
                    > Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover
                    > crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow
                    > leguminous crops like
                    > Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                    > But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass cover is
                    essential Cow
                    > pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as ground cover crop
                    > seasonal.
                    > .But we need permanent self seeding and growing variety as white
                    clover and
                    > Subabul which will cover land through out the year and will not
                    allow any
                    > weed to give problem.
                    > "I want to share one story, one of my friend was very much worried about
                    > strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was unable to take any crop
                    > because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing. We explain him about
                    > natural way of farming, he agreed for experimentation., we simply
                    scattered
                    > Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season and ask them to cut
                    > back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been. He did
                    accordingly, and
                    > harvested better crop than near by farmers of village."
                    >
                    > But next year he came back on modern scientific agriculture, with the
                    > thought that if we can take good crop without doing any thing , we
                    will get
                    > more and more by doing more.This is the one of the reason for non
                    adopting
                    > Natural way of farming.
                    > Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in Banglore.People are very much
                    > against of this weed .People saying that this creating some diasease all
                    > falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as ground cover in the
                    > beginning later we can change as per our convenience.
                    > RajuTitus

                    *********and also this is a great photo series; it lets me know how nature
                    should look on a natural farm (the kind of natural farm that i'm
                    aiming for).**********

                    http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus/Subabul

                    *******for those of us who feel a need to "take care of what i already
                    have" before buying additional plants and seeds i notice that there
                    are quite a few wild "scrub trees" like black locust, wild cherry,
                    persimmon, black walnut and several others whose names allude me right
                    now, coming up on my grounds, in places where i've stopped mowing.
                    (sorry, i don't know the scientific names either, but pretty much any
                    tree like this will work); they
                    seem to appear around tall weeds. when i come across one of these
                    seedlings, i try to favor it.

                    of course, the deer chew on these, which seems to stimulate more
                    shoots of these trees to come up (i call them my wolf trees). seems
                    like somewhere in "the natural way of farming", sensei fukuoka says to
                    encourage these whispy fast- growing shoots to grow, and then when
                    they get telephone-pole (height) size to fell them and mulch with
                    them. i have
                    found that when deer are allowed to chew/prune on your weeds and
                    trees, they spread low and makes the root stronger, making your soil
                    better and better. and some of these wolf trees outlast the deer and
                    spring up fast to get beyond the range of deer mouths.

                    it seems to me that underneath the ground the roots of the wolf trees
                    knit together the whole area, which makes the ground so stable, like
                    a rain forest. as you so wisely revealed, you can plant legumes where
                    the grass grows, and grass or grains where there are weeds, or mulched
                    areas, or legume filled areas. and plant your veggies where there are
                    lots of legumes. and the trees are so whispy, you get enough sun, to
                    plant crops under them. you just have to open it up some, ever so
                    often, to keep some sun coming in.

                    this summer i planted my cherry tomatoes in with the wild violet,
                    strawberries and wild strawberries and some variegated vinca and
                    didn't stake them. the tomatoes began to travel all over the tops of
                    this ground cover, touching down to the ground when they wanted to,
                    but being cushioned very well by this soft but vigorous ground cover.
                    i got hundreds of healthy happy cherry tomatoes off just one plant!

                    i've got lots of grass, so this week i'm going to shake some alfalfa,
                    hairy vetch and red clover seeds (these are sold at the seed store in
                    my location) around the grass clumps. whatever winter legumes that
                    they sell in your area will work just as well as extra leguminous
                    ground cover. you never
                    know when
                    conditions are perfect for winter legumes such as those.

                    whatever you have will work, just as you say, raju titus...it can be very
                    inexpensive, if you want it to be!***********robin******


                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Nandan Palaparambil
                    Dear Raju, Exciting to know that Soyabean works well over the Gajar grass without any tilling..... It is true, the main reason why NF is not adopted is -
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 12, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Raju,

                      Exciting to know that Soyabean works well over the
                      Gajar grass without any tilling.....

                      It is true, the main reason why NF is not adopted is -
                      people think they can harvest more with their
                      contribution and also they feel restless without doing
                      conventional activities in the farm

                      Gajar grass is widely called Parthenium in Bangalore
                      and is there on any land without building !!!. I
                      haven't tested it myself, but I have heard many
                      people/news paper report indicating that it is
                      allergic. Especially it flowers after the monsoon
                      rains and this is the allergy season in Bangalore, it
                      may be a coincidence also.


                      Regards,
                      Nandan

                      --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

                      > Dear friend Nandan,
                      > Any thing which cover land can be used as
                      > ground cover
                      > crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can
                      > easily grow
                      > leguminous crops like
                      > Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                      > But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass
                      > cover is essential Cow
                      > pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as
                      > ground cover crop
                      > seasonal.
                      > .But we need permanent self seeding and growing
                      > variety as white clover and
                      > Subabul which will cover land through out the year
                      > and will not allow any
                      > weed to give problem.
                      > "I want to share one story, one of my friend was
                      > very much worried about
                      > strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was
                      > unable to take any crop
                      > because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing.
                      > We explain him about
                      > natural way of farming, he agreed for
                      > experimentation., we simply scattered
                      > Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season
                      > and ask them to cut
                      > back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been.
                      > He did accordingly, and
                      > harvested better crop than near by farmers of
                      > village."
                      >
                      > But next year he came back on modern scientific
                      > agriculture, with the
                      > thought that if we can take good crop without doing
                      > any thing , we will get
                      > more and more by doing more.This is the one of the
                      > reason for non adopting
                      > Natural way of farming.
                      > Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in
                      > Banglore.People are very much
                      > against of this weed .People saying that this
                      > creating some diasease all
                      > falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as
                      > ground cover in the
                      > beginning later we can change as per our
                      > convenience.
                      > RajuTitus
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > On 11/5/07, Nandan Palaparambil
                      > <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Raju,
                      > >
                      > > Subabul does not provide any grains or fruits. Is
                      > it
                      > > possible to use anything like Cowpea or blackgram
                      > ? At
                      > > least I have heard of farmers using Cowpea in
                      > summer.
                      > >
                      > > Regards,
                      > > Nandan
                      > >
                      > > --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...
                      > <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > Dear friend,
                      > > > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in
                      > Hoshangabad
                      > > > M.P. India since 85-86.
                      > > > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is
                      > > > leguminous. There is no such
                      > > > weed is available which grows in abundance in
                      > our
                      > > > place..So many indian
                      > > > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available
                      > such
                      > > > as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                      > > > But Question is what for you are interested?
                      > Fukuoka
                      > > > is using this weed in
                      > > > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover
                      > ,weed
                      > > > control,nitrogen
                      > > > fixing,insect control,water conservation,
                      > organic
                      > > > mulching etc.
                      > > > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul
                      > > > (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
                      > > > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above
                      > mentioned
                      > > > uses.I found no any
                      > > > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                      > > > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass
                      > ground
                      > > > cover and leguminous
                      > > > crops do well in grass covered land.
                      > > > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of
                      > > > weeds we must learn
                      > > > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                      > > > Thanks
                      > > > Raju
                      > > >
                      > > > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@...
                      > <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>
                      > > > <shashi.pkumar@...
                      > <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Dear Sir/List Members
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Could you please let know local Indian name
                      > > > (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                      > > > > matter any local Indian name) for white
                      > clover?
                      > > > Also, could you please let
                      > > > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in
                      > India?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Regards
                      > > > > Shashi
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > > > removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > > __________________________________________________
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                      > protection around
                      > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >



                      ____________________________________________________________________________________
                      Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you
                      with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now. http://mobile.yahoo.com/sports;_ylt=At9_qDKvtAbMuh1G1SQtBI7ntAcJ
                    • karoubas
                      Dear Raju, Robin and all I also think what Raju has said is very important - and we thank him for it. But I have reservations/questions about the use of
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 19, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Dear Raju, Robin and all

                        I also think what Raju has said is very important - and we thank him
                        for it.

                        But I have reservations/questions about the use of Sababul acacia or
                        any fast spreading nitrogen fixing acacia, in a working farm.

                        Fukuoka-san from what I understand has a few Acacia
                        mearnsii on his farm - he does not use them as a ground cover - he
                        uses nitrogen fixing clovers - its great that this tree is so useful
                        to Raju, but many doubts remain in my mind about this path to ground
                        cover and nitrogen fixing. I will raise a few points, that I hope can
                        be discussed.

                        - it must be difficult to walk around on the farm with all the tree
                        stubs in the ground - as time goes by don't they become thick and
                        difficult to cut? when you cut them do you have to cut them just below
                        the soil ?

                        - if you decide you do not want to use them anymore -how on earth do
                        you get rid of them ?

                        - do you grow them even in areas where you grow your vegetables and
                        wheat ?

                        - don't all these tree stubs interfere with the farm operations -
                        fruit, vegetable and wheat/rice harvesting ?

                        Its a great and fast way to regenerate depleted land - but the main
                        purpose of a do nothing farm is to do as little as possible - not to
                        chase after tree stubs ?

                        These are some of my thoughts, and I put them out for discussion.


                        As an update the seeding projects here in Greece have gone well - the
                        weather has cooperated with plenty of rain - the seed balls I have
                        scattered at a nearby burned out forest, have small trees growing
                        which makes me very happy.

                        On my farm the seed balls have germinated - I am looking forward to
                        spring to see what will survive and grow.

                        Kostas













                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "robin" <witchessocks@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > dear raju titus,
                        >
                        > ****this is very important, in my opinion, and bears
                        repeating...********
                        >
                        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear friend Nandan,
                        > > Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover
                        > > crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow
                        > > leguminous crops like
                        > > Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                        > > But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass cover is
                        > essential Cow
                        > > pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as ground cover crop
                        > > seasonal.
                        > > .But we need permanent self seeding and growing variety as white
                        > clover and
                        > > Subabul which will cover land through out the year and will not
                        > allow any
                        > > weed to give problem.
                        > > "I want to share one story, one of my friend was very much worried
                        about
                        > > strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was unable to take any
                        crop
                        > > because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing. We explain him
                        about
                        > > natural way of farming, he agreed for experimentation., we simply
                        > scattered
                        > > Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season and ask them
                        to cut
                        > > back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been. He did
                        > accordingly, and
                        > > harvested better crop than near by farmers of village."
                        > >
                        > > But next year he came back on modern scientific agriculture, with the
                        > > thought that if we can take good crop without doing any thing , we
                        > will get
                        > > more and more by doing more.This is the one of the reason for non
                        > adopting
                        > > Natural way of farming.
                        > > Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in Banglore.People are very much
                        > > against of this weed .People saying that this creating some
                        diasease all
                        > > falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as ground cover
                        in the
                        > > beginning later we can change as per our convenience.
                        > > RajuTitus
                        >
                        > *********and also this is a great photo series; it lets me know how
                        nature
                        > should look on a natural farm (the kind of natural farm that i'm
                        > aiming for).**********
                        >
                        > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus/Subabul
                        >
                        > *******for those of us who feel a need to "take care of what i already
                        > have" before buying additional plants and seeds i notice that there
                        > are quite a few wild "scrub trees" like black locust, wild cherry,
                        > persimmon, black walnut and several others whose names allude me right
                        > now, coming up on my grounds, in places where i've stopped mowing.
                        > (sorry, i don't know the scientific names either, but pretty much any
                        > tree like this will work); they
                        > seem to appear around tall weeds. when i come across one of these
                        > seedlings, i try to favor it.
                        >
                        > of course, the deer chew on these, which seems to stimulate more
                        > shoots of these trees to come up (i call them my wolf trees). seems
                        > like somewhere in "the natural way of farming", sensei fukuoka says to
                        > encourage these whispy fast- growing shoots to grow, and then when
                        > they get telephone-pole (height) size to fell them and mulch with
                        > them. i have
                        > found that when deer are allowed to chew/prune on your weeds and
                        > trees, they spread low and makes the root stronger, making your soil
                        > better and better. and some of these wolf trees outlast the deer and
                        > spring up fast to get beyond the range of deer mouths.
                        >
                        > it seems to me that underneath the ground the roots of the wolf trees
                        > knit together the whole area, which makes the ground so stable, like
                        > a rain forest. as you so wisely revealed, you can plant legumes where
                        > the grass grows, and grass or grains where there are weeds, or mulched
                        > areas, or legume filled areas. and plant your veggies where there are
                        > lots of legumes. and the trees are so whispy, you get enough sun, to
                        > plant crops under them. you just have to open it up some, ever so
                        > often, to keep some sun coming in.
                        >
                        > this summer i planted my cherry tomatoes in with the wild violet,
                        > strawberries and wild strawberries and some variegated vinca and
                        > didn't stake them. the tomatoes began to travel all over the tops of
                        > this ground cover, touching down to the ground when they wanted to,
                        > but being cushioned very well by this soft but vigorous ground cover.
                        > i got hundreds of healthy happy cherry tomatoes off just one plant!
                        >
                        > i've got lots of grass, so this week i'm going to shake some alfalfa,
                        > hairy vetch and red clover seeds (these are sold at the seed store in
                        > my location) around the grass clumps. whatever winter legumes that
                        > they sell in your area will work just as well as extra leguminous
                        > ground cover. you never
                        > know when
                        > conditions are perfect for winter legumes such as those.
                        >
                        > whatever you have will work, just as you say, raju titus...it can be
                        very
                        > inexpensive, if you want it to be!***********robin******
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • robin
                        dear kostas, do you have a copy of the natural way of farming? in the section on the practice of natural farming fukuoka-san discusses using many types of
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 20, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          dear kostas,

                          do you have a copy of "the natural way of farming? in the section on
                          "the practice of natural farming" fukuoka-san discusses using many
                          types of trees, including nitrogen-fixing trees, as part of his fruit
                          tree orchards (in which he also planted his vegetables). i guess the
                          term ground cover may have been mistakenly used (by me) in reference
                          to pea-family trees. he still used clover as ground cover on the
                          orchard floor along with manageable weeds.

                          i don't believe he used these trees in his rice and barley fields at
                          all, only clover and other small legumes. i don't know about his other
                          grains right off the top of my head including wheat, where he put
                          those. myself, i mix wheat seeds right in with my seed mixtures and
                          they grow wherever, sometimes in drifts, sometimes singly. but if you
                          are selling your wheat or need a big field of it, obviously you would
                          have to have them in field of their own.

                          my mind is not good enough to explain these types of questions myself,
                          but here is a bit of what fukuoka-san says about a fruit tree orchard;

                          "the same methods used in reforestation can also be used to plant
                          fruit trees and set up an orchard. one should not clear and smooth the
                          land with a bulldozer because this disturbs the humus-rich topsoil
                          built up over a long period of time. land developed with a bulldozer
                          and left virtually bare for ten years is washed free of it's topsoil,
                          greatly shortening the economic life of the farm. rather than carting
                          the trunks, branches, and leaves of felled trees off a contour cleared
                          orchard site, it makes more sense to arrange this material along
                          contour lines and wait for it to decompose naturally. the branches
                          leaves, and roots of the trees decompose after several years, becoming
                          a source of organic fertilizer that supplies nutrients to the growing
                          fruit trees. at the same time a cover of organic matter helps to curb
                          weed growth, prevent soil washout, stimulates the proliferation of
                          microorganisms, and serves to enrich and otherwise improve the soil.

                          "because tree branches and leaves when land is cleared interfere
                          with farming operations, these are generally burned. but, like slash
                          and burn agriculture, this sends the fertility of the land up in
                          flames. as for tree roots, these work their way down to the deepest
                          soil strata, contributing physically to the aggregation and structure
                          of the soil. in addition, they also serve as a nutrient source and
                          have a chelating action that solubilizes insoluble nutrients in the
                          soil. if such valuable organic matter is dug up and disposed of when
                          the land is cleared, this drastically changes natural conditions and
                          so damages the soil that it unable to recover, even if holes are later
                          dug in the ground and the same amount of organic matter returned".

                          yes, it may be very inconvenient to have tree stubs everywhere,
                          depending on your choice of farm machines, but, since fukuoka-san only
                          used small hand tools, i guess it was not too much of a problem for him.

                          of course, i'm just starting out, so i don't know much about farm
                          efficiency.just the little bit i've observed over say 3 years and
                          reading fukuoka-san books and looking up natural farming on the web
                          and this group. i could very well be ignorant and wrong about many
                          things. i may have misunderstood what fukuoka-san is saying. but i'm
                          pretty sure that it is true that this is *a* method of natural
                          farming, not
                          necessarily *the* method. and this method of fukuoka-san's is a very
                          good and well-tested method for the conditions and topography that his
                          and many other regions have.

                          i noticed when i felled a series of "tree of heaven" trees (which i
                          wanted to get rid of) in an area, the ground changed over about two
                          years. i had to pull the suckers, they become less over time, the
                          stumps began to decompose, and the ground kind of sunk and formed
                          small valleys in between the stumps. the border soil around this area
                          spread out and settled. the soil sinks away from a rotten stump. i'm
                          still observing the plants that seem to grow in these little valleys,
                          so far it's clover, alfalfa, grasses, wild strawberry, onions, and
                          really, everything that i've planted in terms of legumes and easily
                          germinated plants (turnips, mustards, buckwheat, rye). i'm going to
                          plant native, cereal, ornamental, indian and forage grasses, and their
                          companion plants, in the spring and see how they do. mine is not a
                          working farm at this time, but i'm working toward a grasses-based farm
                          (it's a girl or an artist thing. ha!just kidding).grasses do well in
                          lots of mulch. fast growing trees supply the leaves, branches, the
                          mulch that i need. and the grasses growing near trees and stumps are
                          very healthy looking. can anyone tell me anything that i need to know
                          about growing grasses? i'm sure i'm still missing most of the
                          concepts.but i'll keep trying to find out.

                          kostas,congrajulations on your seedball successes! what seeds did you
                          include
                          in the seedballs? just curious.

                          i've already been on here too long, but i'd like to come back later
                          and relate what fukuoka-san says about black wattle (an acacia) and
                          it's uses and
                          benefits (in focus to your questions).*********robin***********

                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "karoubas" <karoubas@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Dear Raju, Robin and all
                          >
                          > I also think what Raju has said is very important - and we thank him
                          > for it.
                          >
                          > But I have reservations/questions about the use of Sababul acacia or
                          > any fast spreading nitrogen fixing acacia, in a working farm.
                          >
                          > Fukuoka-san from what I understand has a few Acacia
                          > mearnsii on his farm - he does not use them as a ground cover - he
                          > uses nitrogen fixing clovers - its great that this tree is so useful
                          > to Raju, but many doubts remain in my mind about this path to ground
                          > cover and nitrogen fixing. I will raise a few points, that I hope can
                          > be discussed.
                          >
                          > - it must be difficult to walk around on the farm with all the tree
                          > stubs in the ground - as time goes by don't they become thick and
                          > difficult to cut? when you cut them do you have to cut them just below
                          > the soil ?
                          >
                          > - if you decide you do not want to use them anymore -how on earth do
                          > you get rid of them ?
                          >
                          > - do you grow them even in areas where you grow your vegetables and
                          > wheat ?
                          >
                          > - don't all these tree stubs interfere with the farm operations -
                          > fruit, vegetable and wheat/rice harvesting ?
                          >
                          > Its a great and fast way to regenerate depleted land - but the main
                          > purpose of a do nothing farm is to do as little as possible - not to
                          > chase after tree stubs ?
                          >
                          > These are some of my thoughts, and I put them out for discussion.
                          >
                          >
                          > As an update the seeding projects here in Greece have gone well - the
                          > weather has cooperated with plenty of rain - the seed balls I have
                          > scattered at a nearby burned out forest, have small trees growing
                          > which makes me very happy.
                          >
                          > On my farm the seed balls have germinated - I am looking forward to
                          > spring to see what will survive and grow.
                          >
                          > Kostas
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Dieter Brand
                          Kostas, I think that perennials like acacias are particularly useful in hot and arid climates where annuals will go dry for part of the year. During the dry
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 21, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Kostas,

                            I think that perennials like acacias are particularly useful in hot
                            and arid climates where annuals will go dry for part of the year.
                            During the dry part of the year, the perennials continue to
                            produce biomass and prevent weeds from getting out of hand.
                            I’m not convinced that N-fixing of acacias or other leguminous
                            trees is that important. N volatizes quickly, and if not immediately
                            used by a crop it will either benefit the weeds or disappear. Also,
                            it is hardly likely that the N fixed by acacias will be spread evenly
                            across the whole field. If you want to boost the growth of your
                            crop, it is far better to grow a legume like vetch, lupines or clover
                            prior to growing your crop. I have never come across any data
                            regarding the amount of N fixed by acacias or information about
                            when this N is made available to other plants. Anyway, what I
                            want to say with this long introduction is that, in a hot and dry
                            climate, any perennial (bush, shrub, tree or perennial grass) that
                            will grow well in that climate is suitable for producing the biomass
                            whose carbon and other nutrients will build soil organic matter
                            and improve soil quality over the long run. This is more important
                            than the N fixed by acacias.

                            Regarding how to use perennials in agriculture, I can imagine
                            a number of scenarios:
                            A) Litter from a few large trees in the fields aliments the soil and
                            suppresses weeds. After sowing a crop, some of the branches are cut
                            to cover the seeds and to let in more sunlight. What needs to be tested
                            is to what degree germination and crop growth will be inhibited by
                            the trees and their leaves.
                            B) A crop is broadcast into native shrubs or low growing bushes and
                            trees. The shrubs etc. are then cut to cover the seeds. This works
                            well, but can’t be practiced every year, since the native shrubs usually
                            take at least two years to grow again from seed.
                            C) Shrubs, low-growing bushes or perennial grasses (vetiver grass has
                            been mentioned) that will grow again after cutting are planted in rows.
                            The crop is sown between the rows and the perennials are either cut to
                            the ground or as a low hedge. The cuttings will cover the seeds and
                            feed the soil. What needs to be tested is to what degree the roots of
                            the perennials, that keep on growing, will interfere with the crop. It
                            always comes down to what combination of plants to chose.

                            There are probably other ways of using perennials in agriculture.

                            Dieter Brand
                            Portugal



                            ---------------------------------
                            Be a better sports nut! Let your teams follow you with Yahoo Mobile. Try it now.

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • yarrow@sfo.com
                            At 2:37 PM +0000 11/20/07, robin wrote: .... i m going to plant native, cereal, ornamental, indian and forage grasses, and their companion plants, in the
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              At 2:37 PM +0000 11/20/07, robin wrote:
                              .... i'm going to
                              plant native, cereal, ornamental, indian and forage grasses, and their
                              companion plants, in the spring and see how they do. mine is not a
                              working farm at this time, but i'm working toward a grasses-based farm
                              (it's a girl or an artist thing. ha!just kidding).grasses do well in
                              lots of mulch. fast growing trees supply the leaves, branches, the
                              mulch that i need. and the grasses growing near trees and stumps are
                              very healthy looking. can anyone tell me anything that i need to know
                              about growing grasses? i'm sure i'm still missing most of the
                              concepts.but i'll keep trying to find out.
                              ....


                              For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                              which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:


                              http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL

                              The potential for growing food from perennial crops

                              Deborah K. Rich, Special to The Chronicle

                              Saturday, November 24, 2007

                              Perennial crops have great potential. Yet they hardly figure in the
                              world's calorie consumption.

                              The world's major grains, food legumes and oilseeds - including all
                              of its wheat, rice, corn, barley, soybeans, cottonseed and dry beans
                              - are annuals. These crops covered 80 percent of harvested cropland
                              in 2004.

                              A food system based upon plants that start each growing season anew
                              from seeds is inherently risky.

                              Farmers' efforts to reduce the risk often degrade soil and water and
                              accelerate the buildup of greenhouse gasses.

                              Many crop seeds won't germinate if the soil is too hot, cold, wet,
                              dry, crowded or full of clods. With plow and disc, farmers clear the
                              soil of weeds and debris and slice it into a fine crumb. If it's a
                              spring planting, they wait for the soil to warm. For a fall planting,
                              they wait for it to cool. In the arid West, farmers "irrigate up"
                              before planting; in the changeable Midwest, they squeeze in planting
                              between thunderstorms.

                              Weeds enjoy the farmers' carefully prepared seedbed just as much as
                              crops. Farmers cultivate, spray herbicides or hoe to keep weeds under
                              control while their crops get established.

                              There is a beginning for perennials as well, complete with seedbed
                              and coddling of seedlings. But the initial soil disturbance and
                              fieldwork pay off for several years.

                              Alfalfa, a legume grown for animal feed, often produces for five
                              years or more. Without the need to disc and plant each year, tractor
                              use is less, fuel use declines and the soil suffers less degradation.

                              Agroecologist Jerry Glover of the Land Institute demonstrates the
                              power of perennial plants.

                              Arms outstretched, he holds up a clump of annual wheat in one hand
                              and a handful of wild perennial wheatgrass in the other. While the
                              slender roots hanging from the clump of wheat fall barely to Glover's
                              elbow, the boisterous tangle of wheatgrass roots tumbles down to his
                              feet.

                              "You can visualize roots as a series of safety nets for the soil," he
                              says. "Safety nets not only with depth, but extending over time."

                              Within the first year of planting, the roots of perennial crops leave
                              little room for weeds. Glover thinks that a reduction in herbicide
                              costs of four to 8 1/2 times is a conservative estimate.

                              "I have 5-year-old wheatgrass plots that are weed-free and have never
                              had herbicides," says Glover. That saves money, reduces tractor
                              passes and benefits environmental health.

                              Perennial crops extend the growing season, partly by already being in
                              the ground as winter is ending. In states such as Kansas, where the
                              Land Institute is located, it isn't unusual for only half the days in
                              a month to be suitable for planting.

                              Perennials start growing first. "Root activity can take place at much
                              cooler temperatures than seeds can germinate," he said.

                              They also stretch out the growing season. In late September, Glover's
                              wheatgrass had already regrown 4 to 6 inches after being harvested in
                              August while he waits to reseed his wheat field.

                              "Our annual winter wheat won't do well at all in July or August,"
                              says Glover. "It doesn't even matter if we can get the seed to
                              germinate; the winter wheat just can't grow in those temperatures,
                              and the surface of the soil is too dry for the seedlings. Yet our
                              perennial wheatgrass, because its roots are deep down, is able to
                              reach where the soil is more buffered against extremes in temperature
                              and moisture."

                              Reaching deep into the soil year-round, perennial roots make more
                              efficient use of nitrogen inputs, half of which can leach out of the
                              root zone before plants can make use of it.

                              "Nitrogen in the soil typically moves with water," says Glover. "You
                              don't want to have water flowing through the system unused. Picture
                              Iowa in April or May. There's no crop growing because it's too cold,
                              but yet they're getting a lot of rainfall."

                              Not only are nitrate losses a waste of an expensive input - the price
                              of nitrogen is on the rise along with the price of oil - nitrates
                              draining into waterways fuel the spread of coastal dead zones.

                              Spring and summer nitrate flows out the mouth of the Mississippi
                              River cause massive algae blooms that rob the water of oxygen and
                              create dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico.

                              The perennial web of roots holds onto more than nitrogen.

                              The roots anchor the soil and reduce erosion. A study begun in 1888
                              at the University of Missouri measured the depth of topsoil remaining
                              after 100 years of continuous farming.

                              Topsoil under plots of perennial timothy grass (a crop cut for hay)
                              was more than two times deeper than the topsoil remaining under
                              annual corn, and almost 1 1/2 times deeper than the topsoil remaining
                              under a six-year rotation of corn, oats, wheat, clover and timothy
                              grass.

                              With the world's population growing, agriculture must anchor all the
                              soil it can as ever more marginal land is pushed into production.

                              "We get away with a lot here in North America because our soils are
                              so rich, fertile and deep. The thinner or more poor your soils are,
                              the more you need perennials there to safeguard them," says Glover.

                              Conversion to perennials cannot happen overnight.

                              The Land Institute began its perennial breeding programs in 2000.
                              Today it has four breeders and total funding of approximately $2
                              million.

                              Glover estimates that the institute is probably at least 25 years out
                              from having a high-yielding perennial substitute for a major grain.
                              The world may come asking for seed sooner.

                              "How far out we are from having a product partly depends on
                              expectations," says Glover. "Our wheatgrass, for example, right now
                              out-yields some of the world's minor annual crops, such as Ethiopian
                              teff, in a good year. Also, for some of the non-food-crop oilseeds,
                              you don't have all the taste and handling requirements that you have
                              for wheat. You want a very consistent bread, but for oil you're more
                              flexible. And how far we are from a commercially viable crop will
                              partly depend upon world resources."

                              This article appeared on page F - 9 of the San Francisco Chronicle

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • pattyloof
                              ... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@... wrote:

                                > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL


                                I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !

                                I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                can get this?

                                Patty
                                Oklahoma, USA
                              • Robert Monie
                                Hi Patty, You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi Patty,

                                  You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in
                                  Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and both make good sod.

                                  Bob Monie
                                  New Orleans, La
                                  Zone 8



                                  pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@... wrote:

                                  > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                  > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL

                                  I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                  intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !

                                  I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                  can get this?

                                  Patty
                                  Oklahoma, USA






                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Robert Monie
                                  Hi Patty, You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Patty,

                                    You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in
                                    Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and both make good sod.

                                    Bob Monie
                                    New Orleans, La
                                    Zone 8



                                    pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@... wrote:

                                    > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                    > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL

                                    I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                    intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !

                                    I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                    can get this?

                                    Patty
                                    Oklahoma, USA






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • pattyloof
                                    Thank you! Patty ... Seed Farms in ... perennial and both make good sod. ... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 5, 2007
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Thank you!

                                      Patty

                                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Patty,
                                      >
                                      > You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock
                                      Seed Farms in
                                      > Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are
                                      perennial and both make good sod.
                                      >
                                      > Bob Monie
                                      > New Orleans, La
                                      > Zone 8
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                                      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@ wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                      > > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL
                                      >
                                      > I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                      > intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !
                                      >
                                      > I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                      > can get this?
                                      >
                                      > Patty
                                      > Oklahoma, USA
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >
                                    Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.