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RE: [fukuoka_farming] Clover - Indian Local Name

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  • shashi.pkumar@wipro.com
    Dear Rajuji, Thank you very much for the reply. Currently am exploring weeds/plans what can grow well in saline land, the reason for this has been describer
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 4, 2007
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      Dear Rajuji,

      Thank you very much for the reply.

      Currently am exploring weeds/plans what can grow well in saline land, the reason for this has been describer below.

      I bought 3 acres of (~1.2 hectares) of depleted land around 1 year back.

      Observations: Most of the land is saline(80% of total land), fails to soak rain water, and is void vegetation/tree cover.

      AIM: convert land good for sustainable agriculture

      What was done: This monsoon I scattered horse gram (100 KG), daiyancha (local plant which generates lot of mulch, it is a di-cotyledon)(120KG) and jute (120 KG) seeds during this monsoon. Also scattered good amount of Glirisedia, Subabul, Thandadi seeds.

      What else was done: Made a provision for logged water to drain out, hoping that it will take away the salinity.

      Results: So far it has been mixed bag. Jute failed grow beyond few inches and died, daiyancha grew for around 1.5 to 2 feet and died and horse gram has grown ok (in about 20% of the land) but only in the non saline land.

      Help I need: Please suggest/guide how can I get the land corrected may be in next couple of years. Please suggest a non chemical way of treating my land.

      Thank you very much for your help.

      Regards
      Shashi




      -----Original Message-----
      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raju Titus
      Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:42 AM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Clover - Indian Local Name

      Dear friend,
      I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
      White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
      But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
      We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong, deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
      Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous crops do well in grass covered land.
      Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
      Thanks
      Raju

      On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Sir/List Members
      >
      >
      > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for
      > that matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you
      > please let know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
      >
      > Regards
      > Shashi
      >
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




      Yahoo! Groups Links
    • Dieter Brand
      Raju, Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection if it has. What acacia is subabul ? Do you have a botanical name? Or is there a
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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        Raju,

        Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
        if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
        Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
        again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
        know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
        after being cut back to the ground?

        Dieter

        Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
        Dear friend,
        I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
        White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
        weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
        leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
        But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
        his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
        fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
        We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
        deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
        natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
        Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
        crops do well in grass covered land.
        Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
        growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
        Thanks
        Raju

        On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Sir/List Members
        >
        >
        > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
        > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please let
        > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
        >
        > Regards
        > Shashi
        >
        >
        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Barbié olivier
        Hi Leucaena leucocephala http://www.odi.org.uk/fpeg/publications/greyliterature/socialforestry/relwani/index.html Olivier Dieter Brand a
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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          Hi

          Leucaena leucocephala

          http://www.odi.org.uk/fpeg/publications/greyliterature/socialforestry/relwani/index.html

          Olivier

          Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> a écrit :
          Raju,

          Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
          if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
          Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
          again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
          know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
          after being cut back to the ground?

          Dieter

          Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
          Dear friend,
          I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
          White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
          weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
          leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
          But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
          his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
          fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
          We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
          deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
          natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
          Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
          crops do well in grass covered land.
          Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
          growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
          Thanks
          Raju

          On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Sir/List Members
          >
          >
          > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
          > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please let
          > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
          >
          > Regards
          > Shashi
          >
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          __________________________________________________
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          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          Olivier Barbié


          http://perso.orange.fr/Olivier.Barbie/
          Tel. : 06 18 76 67 27


          Professeur agrégé
          IUT de Cachan, Paris XI
          Département GEii1
          9 Av de la division Leclerc
          94234 CACHAN

          Laboratoire PHARE
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • shashi.pkumar@wipro.com
          Dear Rajuji, Thank you very much for the reply. Currently am exploring weeds/plans what can grow well in saline land, the reason for this has been describer
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Rajuji,

            Thank you very much for the reply.

            Currently am exploring weeds/plans what can grow well in saline land, the reason for this has been describer below.

            I bought 3 acres of (~1.2 hectares) of depleted land around 1 year back.

            Observations: Most of the land is saline(80% of total land), fails to soak rain water, and is void vegetation/tree cover.

            AIM: convert land good for sustainable agriculture

            What was done: This monsoon I scattered horse gram (100 KG), daiyancha (local plant which generates lot of mulch, it is a di-cotyledon)(120KG) and jute (120 KG) seeds during this monsoon. Also scattered good amount of Glirisedia, Subabul, Thandadi seeds.

            What else was done: Made a provision for logged water to drain out, hoping that it will take away the salinity.

            Results: So far it has been mixed bag. Jute failed grow beyond few inches and died, daiyancha grew for around 1.5 to 2 feet and died and horse gram has grown ok (in about 20% of the land) but only in the non saline land.

            Help I need: Please suggest/guide how can I get the land corrected may be in next couple of years. Please suggest a non chemical way of treating my land.

            Thank you very much for your help.

            Regards
            Shashi

            -----Original Message-----
            From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raju Titus
            Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:42 AM
            To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Clover - Indian Local Name

            Dear friend,
            I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
            White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
            But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
            We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong, deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
            Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous crops do well in grass covered land.
            Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
            Thanks
            Raju

            On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Sir/List Members
            >
            >
            > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for
            > that matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you
            > please let know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
            >
            > Regards
            > Shashi
            >
            >
            >


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




            Yahoo! Groups Links
          • Nandan Palaparambil
            Dear Raju, Subabul does not provide any grains or fruits. Is it possible to use anything like Cowpea or blackgram ? At least I have heard of farmers using
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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              Dear Raju,

              Subabul does not provide any grains or fruits. Is it
              possible to use anything like Cowpea or blackgram ? At
              least I have heard of farmers using Cowpea in summer.

              Regards,
              Nandan

              --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

              > Dear friend,
              > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad
              > M.P. India since 85-86.
              > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is
              > leguminous. There is no such
              > weed is available which grows in abundance in our
              > place..So many indian
              > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such
              > as Berseem ,lucern etc.
              > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka
              > is using this weed in
              > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed
              > control,nitrogen
              > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic
              > mulching etc.
              > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul
              > (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
              > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned
              > uses.I found no any
              > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
              > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground
              > cover and leguminous
              > crops do well in grass covered land.
              > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of
              > weeds we must learn
              > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
              > Thanks
              > Raju
              >
              > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@...
              > <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Dear Sir/List Members
              > >
              > >
              > > Could you please let know local Indian name
              > (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
              > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover?
              > Also, could you please let
              > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
              > >
              > > Regards
              > > Shashi
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >


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            • Robert Monie
              Hi Dieter, Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as Koa Haole and White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                Hi Dieter,

                Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa Haole" and
                White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered invasive. A good photo and description appears at http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.

                In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.

                Bob Monie

                Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                Raju,

                Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                after being cut back to the ground?

                Dieter

                Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                Dear friend,
                I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
                White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
                weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
                his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
                deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                crops do well in grass covered land.
                Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                Thanks
                Raju

                On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Sir/List Members
                >
                >
                > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please let
                > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                >
                > Regards
                > Shashi
                >
                >
                >

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                __________________________________________________
                Do You Yahoo!?
                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                http://mail.yahoo.com

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Raju Titus
                Friends, Subabul is a Australian Acacia known as Mearnsii .In Natural Way of Farming Fukuoka used Morisima Acasia.Once it germinate send roots in deep and do
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                  Friends,
                  Subabul is a Australian Acacia known as Mearnsii .In Natural Way of Farming
                  Fukuoka used Morisima Acasia.Once it germinate send roots in deep and do not
                  die after several time cutting.It germinate and survive by just broad
                  casting direct seeding.It can be used where white clover is not
                  available.Weare growing Rice/Wheat in the ground cover of
                  subabul.Method is very simple we scatter seeds of crop in the standing cover
                  of Subabul and when see that crop germinate sufficiently we cut back
                  branches of Subabul and mulch on the germinating crop sparshly as Fukuoka
                  spreading Rice straws on germinating Wheat.
                  Raju

                  On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Dieter,
                  >
                  > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
                  > Haole" and
                  > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
                  > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
                  > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
                  > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
                  >
                  > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
                  > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
                  >
                  > Bob Monie
                  >
                  > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                  > Raju,
                  >
                  > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                  > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                  > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                  > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                  > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                  > after being cut back to the ground?
                  >
                  > Dieter
                  >
                  > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                  > Dear friend,
                  > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
                  > 85-86.
                  > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
                  > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                  > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
                  > etc.
                  > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
                  > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                  > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                  > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
                  > strong,
                  > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                  > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                  > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                  > crops do well in grass covered land.
                  > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                  > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                  > Thanks
                  > Raju
                  >
                  > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                  > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Dear Sir/List Members
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                  > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
                  > let
                  > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > > Shashi
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Raju Titus
                  Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos. Raju ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                    Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
                    Raju

                    On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Dieter,
                    >
                    > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
                    > Haole" and
                    > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
                    > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
                    > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
                    > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
                    >
                    > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
                    > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
                    >
                    > Bob Monie
                    >
                    > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                    > Raju,
                    >
                    > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                    > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                    > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                    > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                    > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                    > after being cut back to the ground?
                    >
                    > Dieter
                    >
                    > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                    > Dear friend,
                    > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
                    > 85-86.
                    > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
                    > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                    > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
                    > etc.
                    > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
                    > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                    > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                    > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
                    > strong,
                    > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                    > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                    > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                    > crops do well in grass covered land.
                    > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                    > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                    > Thanks
                    > Raju
                    >
                    > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                    > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Dear Sir/List Members
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                    > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
                    > let
                    > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                    > >
                    > > Regards
                    > > Shashi
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > __________________________________________________
                    > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                    > http://mail.yahoo.com
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Robert Monie
                    Hi, If you Google the single word subabul, dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Hi,

                      If you Google the single word "subabul," dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with Leucaena leucocephala or a new variety called Leucaena collensi. Almost none of them refer to the acacia variety you mentioned.
                      Examples of Internet articles that equate subabul with Leucaena leucocephala include:

                      Economics of subabul practice
                      Bioevaluation of subabul
                      Subabul toxicity in kids
                      Subabul and eucalyptus
                      Indian seed resources: A New Variety of subabul
                      Subabul, an easy growing tree

                      Obviously, the popular term subabul is not standardized in English and is subject to regional and dialectal differences. To avoid misunderstanding then, it would be best to use the
                      Latin binomial designations for the various types of acacia rather than the variously interpreted "subabul."

                      Bob Monie
                      Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                      Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
                      Raju

                      On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Dieter,
                      >
                      > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
                      > Haole" and
                      > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
                      > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
                      > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
                      > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
                      >
                      > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
                      > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
                      >
                      > Bob Monie
                      >
                      > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                      > Raju,
                      >
                      > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                      > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                      > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                      > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                      > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                      > after being cut back to the ground?
                      >
                      > Dieter
                      >
                      > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                      > Dear friend,
                      > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
                      > 85-86.
                      > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
                      > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                      > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
                      > etc.
                      > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
                      > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                      > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                      > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
                      > strong,
                      > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                      > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                      > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                      > crops do well in grass covered land.
                      > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                      > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                      > Thanks
                      > Raju
                      >
                      > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                      > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Dear Sir/List Members
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                      > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
                      > let
                      > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                      > >
                      > > Regards
                      > > Shashi
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > __________________________________________________
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                      > http://mail.yahoo.com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Robert Monie
                      Hi, If you Google the single word subabul, dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with
                      Message 10 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi,

                        If you Google the single word "subabul," dozens of links immediately pop up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with Leucaena leucocephala or a new variety called Leucaena collensi. Almost none of them refer to the acacia variety you mentioned.
                        Examples of Internet articles that equate subabul with Leucaena leucocephala include:

                        Economics of subabul practice
                        Bioevaluation of subabul
                        Subabul toxicity in kids
                        Subabul and eucalyptus
                        Indian seed resources: A New Variety of subabul
                        Subabul, an easy growing tree

                        Obviously, the popular term subabul is not standardized in English and is subject to regional and dialectal differences. To avoid misunderstanding then, it would be best to use the
                        Latin binomial designations for the various types of acacia rather than the variously interpreted "subabul."

                        Bob Monie
                        Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                        Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
                        Raju

                        On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Dieter,
                        >
                        > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
                        > Haole" and
                        > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
                        > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
                        > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
                        > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
                        >
                        > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
                        > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
                        >
                        > Bob Monie
                        >
                        > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                        > Raju,
                        >
                        > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                        > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                        > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                        > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                        > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                        > after being cut back to the ground?
                        >
                        > Dieter
                        >
                        > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                        > Dear friend,
                        > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
                        > 85-86.
                        > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
                        > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                        > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
                        > etc.
                        > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
                        > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                        > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                        > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
                        > strong,
                        > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                        > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                        > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                        > crops do well in grass covered land.
                        > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                        > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                        > Thanks
                        > Raju
                        >
                        > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                        > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Dear Sir/List Members
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                        > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
                        > let
                        > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                        > >
                        > > Regards
                        > > Shashi
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > __________________________________________________
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                        > http://mail.yahoo.com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Raju Titus
                        Dear friend, You are correct there is lot of confusion in names.I checked plant in Google image I found it is Leucaena Leucocephala. I am also sending you
                        Message 11 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear friend,
                          You are correct there is lot of confusion in names.I checked plant in Google
                          image I found it is Leucaena Leucocephala. I am also sending you
                          photo.downloaded.
                          RajuTitus


                          On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>

                          > Hi,
                          >
                          > If you Google the single word "subabul," dozens of links immediately pop
                          > up, almost all of them (including many from India) identifying the term with
                          > Leucaena leucocephala or a new variety called Leucaena collensi. Almost none
                          > of them refer to the acacia variety you mentioned.
                          > Examples of Internet articles that equate subabul with Leucaena
                          > leucocephala include:
                          >
                          > Economics of subabul practice
                          > Bioevaluation of subabul
                          > Subabul toxicity in kids
                          > Subabul and eucalyptus
                          > Indian seed resources: A New Variety of subabul
                          > Subabul, an easy growing tree
                          >
                          > Obviously, the popular term subabul is not standardized in English and is
                          > subject to regional and dialectal differences. To avoid misunderstanding
                          > then, it would be best to use the
                          > Latin binomial designations for the various types of acacia rather than
                          > the variously interpreted "subabul."
                          >
                          > Bob Monie
                          > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                          > Photo of Subabul is avilable in fukuoka_farming yahoo groups photos.
                          > Raju
                          >
                          > On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@... <bobm20001%40yahoo.com>>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Dieter,
                          > >
                          > > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
                          > > Haole" and
                          > > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
                          > > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
                          > > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information
                          > at
                          > > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
                          > >
                          > > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
                          > > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
                          > >
                          > > Bob Monie
                          > >
                          > > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com><diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                          > > Raju,
                          > >
                          > > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                          > > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                          > > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                          > > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                          > > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                          > > after being cut back to the ground?
                          > >
                          > > Dieter
                          > >
                          > > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com><rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                          > > Dear friend,
                          > > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
                          > > 85-86.
                          > > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no
                          > such
                          > > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                          > > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
                          > > etc.
                          > > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed
                          > in
                          > > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                          > > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                          > > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
                          > > strong,
                          > > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                          > > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                          > > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                          > > crops do well in grass covered land.
                          > > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                          > > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                          > > Thanks
                          > > Raju
                          > >
                          > > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                          > shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                          > > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                          > shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Dear Sir/List Members
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for
                          > that
                          > > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
                          > > let
                          > > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                          > > >
                          > > > Regards
                          > > > Shashi
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________________________
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                          > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Dieter Brand
                          Thanks to Bob, Raju and Olivier, That was quick! Yes, plant naming can be tricky. Raju, do you have any pictures showing your fields before and after cutting
                          Message 12 of 26 , Nov 5, 2007
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                            Thanks to Bob, Raju and Olivier,

                            That was quick! Yes, plant naming can be tricky.

                            Raju, do you have any pictures showing your fields before and after
                            cutting the Subabul (or Mearnsii)?. What is the spacing of the trees
                            and how much can you cut them back?

                            Dieter Brand
                            Portugal

                            Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
                            Friends,
                            Subabul is a Australian Acacia known as Mearnsii .In Natural Way of Farming
                            Fukuoka used Morisima Acasia.Once it germinate send roots in deep and do not
                            die after several time cutting.It germinate and survive by just broad
                            casting direct seeding.It can be used where white clover is not
                            available.Weare growing Rice/Wheat in the ground cover of
                            subabul.Method is very simple we scatter seeds of crop in the standing cover
                            of Subabul and when see that crop germinate sufficiently we cut back
                            branches of Subabul and mulch on the germinating crop sparshly as Fukuoka
                            spreading Rice straws on germinating Wheat.
                            Raju

                            On 11/5/07, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Dieter,
                            >
                            > Sababul is most probably the Leucaena leucocephala, also known as "Koa
                            > Haole" and
                            > White Leadtree. It is related to the acacia and generally considered
                            > invasive. A good photo and description appears at
                            > http://www.tradewindsfruit.com/koa_haole.htm and a bit more information at
                            > http://nerdatabank.nic.in/csireconomic.htm.
                            >
                            > In New Orleans, LA most landscapers do not plant acacia; the tree is too
                            > prone to insect invasion and destruction in our climate and soil.
                            >
                            > Bob Monie
                            >
                            > Dieter Brand <diebrand@... <diebrand%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                            > Raju,
                            >
                            > Perhaps this has been mentioned before, but I have no recollection
                            > if it has. What acacia is "subabul"? Do you have a botanical name?
                            > Or is there a website with a description of the plant? Will it grow
                            > again when cut back to above the ground? Alternately, do you
                            > know of any acacia or other bush or small tree that will grow again
                            > after being cut back to the ground?
                            >
                            > Dieter
                            >
                            > Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                            > Dear friend,
                            > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since
                            > 85-86.
                            > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such
                            > weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian
                            > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern
                            > etc.
                            > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in
                            > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen
                            > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                            > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a
                            > strong,
                            > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any
                            > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                            > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous
                            > crops do well in grass covered land.
                            > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn
                            > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                            > Thanks
                            > Raju
                            >
                            > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com> <
                            > shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear Sir/List Members
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                            > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you please
                            > let
                            > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                            > >
                            > > Regards
                            > > Shashi
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > __________________________________________________
                            > Do You Yahoo!?
                            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                            > http://mail.yahoo.com
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





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                          • Nandan Palaparambil
                            Dear Shashi, This suggestion is based on reading and knowledge from this mailing list itself. Since your land is depleted you have to bring it to good
                            Message 13 of 26 , Nov 8, 2007
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                              Dear Shashi,

                              This suggestion is based on reading and knowledge from this mailing list itself.

                              Since your land is depleted you have to bring it to good condition before completely leaving it to itself. I think you have to mulch your entire land using leaves of different plants and you can apply some cowdung above this to increase the decomposition. Mulching is better done before the monsoon rains.




                              Regards,
                              Nandan

                              shashi.pkumar@... wrote:
                              Dear Rajuji,

                              Thank you very much for the reply.

                              Currently am exploring weeds/plans what can grow well in saline land, the reason for this has been describer below.

                              I bought 3 acres of (~1.2 hectares) of depleted land around 1 year back.

                              Observations: Most of the land is saline(80% of total land), fails to soak rain water, and is void vegetation/tree cover.

                              AIM: convert land good for sustainable agriculture

                              What was done: This monsoon I scattered horse gram (100 KG), daiyancha (local plant which generates lot of mulch, it is a di-cotyledon)(120KG) and jute (120 KG) seeds during this monsoon. Also scattered good amount of Glirisedia, Subabul, Thandadi seeds.

                              What else was done: Made a provision for logged water to drain out, hoping that it will take away the salinity.

                              Results: So far it has been mixed bag. Jute failed grow beyond few inches and died, daiyancha grew for around 1.5 to 2 feet and died and horse gram has grown ok (in about 20% of the land) but only in the non saline land.

                              Help I need: Please suggest/guide how can I get the land corrected may be in next couple of years. Please suggest a non chemical way of treating my land.

                              Thank you very much for your help.

                              Regards
                              Shashi

                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Raju Titus
                              Sent: Monday, November 05, 2007 11:42 AM
                              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Clover - Indian Local Name

                              Dear friend,
                              I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad M.P. India since 85-86.
                              White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is leguminous. There is no such weed is available which grows in abundance in our place..So many indian leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                              But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka is using this weed in his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed control,nitrogen fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic mulching etc.
                              We tried so many varieties but found Subabul (acacia). Subabul is a strong, deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned uses.I found no any natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                              Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground cover and leguminous crops do well in grass covered land.
                              Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of weeds we must learn growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                              Thanks
                              Raju

                              On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Dear Sir/List Members
                              >
                              >
                              > Could you please let know local Indian name (Hindi, Kannada, or for
                              > that matter any local Indian name) for white clover? Also, could you
                              > please let know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                              >
                              > Regards
                              > Shashi
                              >
                              >
                              >

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              Yahoo! Groups Links





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                            • Raju Titus
                              Dear friend Nandan, Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow leguminous crops
                              Message 14 of 26 , Nov 8, 2007
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Dear friend Nandan,
                                Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover
                                crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow
                                leguminous crops like
                                Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                                But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass cover is essential Cow
                                pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as ground cover crop
                                seasonal.
                                .But we need permanent self seeding and growing variety as white clover and
                                Subabul which will cover land through out the year and will not allow any
                                weed to give problem.
                                "I want to share one story, one of my friend was very much worried about
                                strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was unable to take any crop
                                because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing. We explain him about
                                natural way of farming, he agreed for experimentation., we simply scattered
                                Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season and ask them to cut
                                back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been. He did accordingly, and
                                harvested better crop than near by farmers of village."

                                But next year he came back on modern scientific agriculture, with the
                                thought that if we can take good crop without doing any thing , we will get
                                more and more by doing more.This is the one of the reason for non adopting
                                Natural way of farming.
                                Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in Banglore.People are very much
                                against of this weed .People saying that this creating some diasease all
                                falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as ground cover in the
                                beginning later we can change as per our convenience.
                                RajuTitus







                                On 11/5/07, Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Raju,
                                >
                                > Subabul does not provide any grains or fruits. Is it
                                > possible to use anything like Cowpea or blackgram ? At
                                > least I have heard of farmers using Cowpea in summer.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Nandan
                                >
                                > --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@... <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                                >
                                > > Dear friend,
                                > > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in Hoshangabad
                                > > M.P. India since 85-86.
                                > > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is
                                > > leguminous. There is no such
                                > > weed is available which grows in abundance in our
                                > > place..So many indian
                                > > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available such
                                > > as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                                > > But Question is what for you are interested? Fukuoka
                                > > is using this weed in
                                > > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover ,weed
                                > > control,nitrogen
                                > > fixing,insect control,water conservation, organic
                                > > mulching etc.
                                > > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul
                                > > (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
                                > > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above mentioned
                                > > uses.I found no any
                                > > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                                > > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass ground
                                > > cover and leguminous
                                > > crops do well in grass covered land.
                                > > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of
                                > > weeds we must learn
                                > > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                                > > Thanks
                                > > Raju
                                > >
                                > > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>
                                > > <shashi.pkumar@... <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Dear Sir/List Members
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Could you please let know local Indian name
                                > > (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                                > > > matter any local Indian name) for white clover?
                                > > Also, could you please let
                                > > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in India?
                                > > >
                                > > > Regards
                                > > > Shashi
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > > removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                > __________________________________________________
                                > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                >
                                >
                                >


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • robin
                                dear raju titus, ... essential Cow ... clover and ... allow any ... scattered ... accordingly, and ... will get ... adopting ... *********and also this is a
                                Message 15 of 26 , Nov 11, 2007
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  dear raju titus,

                                  ****this is very important, in my opinion, and bears repeating...********

                                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Dear friend Nandan,
                                  > Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover
                                  > crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow
                                  > leguminous crops like
                                  > Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                                  > But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass cover is
                                  essential Cow
                                  > pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as ground cover crop
                                  > seasonal.
                                  > .But we need permanent self seeding and growing variety as white
                                  clover and
                                  > Subabul which will cover land through out the year and will not
                                  allow any
                                  > weed to give problem.
                                  > "I want to share one story, one of my friend was very much worried about
                                  > strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was unable to take any crop
                                  > because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing. We explain him about
                                  > natural way of farming, he agreed for experimentation., we simply
                                  scattered
                                  > Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season and ask them to cut
                                  > back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been. He did
                                  accordingly, and
                                  > harvested better crop than near by farmers of village."
                                  >
                                  > But next year he came back on modern scientific agriculture, with the
                                  > thought that if we can take good crop without doing any thing , we
                                  will get
                                  > more and more by doing more.This is the one of the reason for non
                                  adopting
                                  > Natural way of farming.
                                  > Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in Banglore.People are very much
                                  > against of this weed .People saying that this creating some diasease all
                                  > falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as ground cover in the
                                  > beginning later we can change as per our convenience.
                                  > RajuTitus

                                  *********and also this is a great photo series; it lets me know how nature
                                  should look on a natural farm (the kind of natural farm that i'm
                                  aiming for).**********

                                  http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus/Subabul

                                  *******for those of us who feel a need to "take care of what i already
                                  have" before buying additional plants and seeds i notice that there
                                  are quite a few wild "scrub trees" like black locust, wild cherry,
                                  persimmon, black walnut and several others whose names allude me right
                                  now, coming up on my grounds, in places where i've stopped mowing.
                                  (sorry, i don't know the scientific names either, but pretty much any
                                  tree like this will work); they
                                  seem to appear around tall weeds. when i come across one of these
                                  seedlings, i try to favor it.

                                  of course, the deer chew on these, which seems to stimulate more
                                  shoots of these trees to come up (i call them my wolf trees). seems
                                  like somewhere in "the natural way of farming", sensei fukuoka says to
                                  encourage these whispy fast- growing shoots to grow, and then when
                                  they get telephone-pole (height) size to fell them and mulch with
                                  them. i have
                                  found that when deer are allowed to chew/prune on your weeds and
                                  trees, they spread low and makes the root stronger, making your soil
                                  better and better. and some of these wolf trees outlast the deer and
                                  spring up fast to get beyond the range of deer mouths.

                                  it seems to me that underneath the ground the roots of the wolf trees
                                  knit together the whole area, which makes the ground so stable, like
                                  a rain forest. as you so wisely revealed, you can plant legumes where
                                  the grass grows, and grass or grains where there are weeds, or mulched
                                  areas, or legume filled areas. and plant your veggies where there are
                                  lots of legumes. and the trees are so whispy, you get enough sun, to
                                  plant crops under them. you just have to open it up some, ever so
                                  often, to keep some sun coming in.

                                  this summer i planted my cherry tomatoes in with the wild violet,
                                  strawberries and wild strawberries and some variegated vinca and
                                  didn't stake them. the tomatoes began to travel all over the tops of
                                  this ground cover, touching down to the ground when they wanted to,
                                  but being cushioned very well by this soft but vigorous ground cover.
                                  i got hundreds of healthy happy cherry tomatoes off just one plant!

                                  i've got lots of grass, so this week i'm going to shake some alfalfa,
                                  hairy vetch and red clover seeds (these are sold at the seed store in
                                  my location) around the grass clumps. whatever winter legumes that
                                  they sell in your area will work just as well as extra leguminous
                                  ground cover. you never
                                  know when
                                  conditions are perfect for winter legumes such as those.

                                  whatever you have will work, just as you say, raju titus...it can be very
                                  inexpensive, if you want it to be!***********robin******


                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Nandan Palaparambil
                                  Dear Raju, Exciting to know that Soyabean works well over the Gajar grass without any tilling..... It is true, the main reason why NF is not adopted is -
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Nov 12, 2007
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                                    Dear Raju,

                                    Exciting to know that Soyabean works well over the
                                    Gajar grass without any tilling.....

                                    It is true, the main reason why NF is not adopted is -
                                    people think they can harvest more with their
                                    contribution and also they feel restless without doing
                                    conventional activities in the farm

                                    Gajar grass is widely called Parthenium in Bangalore
                                    and is there on any land without building !!!. I
                                    haven't tested it myself, but I have heard many
                                    people/news paper report indicating that it is
                                    allergic. Especially it flowers after the monsoon
                                    rains and this is the allergy season in Bangalore, it
                                    may be a coincidence also.


                                    Regards,
                                    Nandan

                                    --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

                                    > Dear friend Nandan,
                                    > Any thing which cover land can be used as
                                    > ground cover
                                    > crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can
                                    > easily grow
                                    > leguminous crops like
                                    > Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                                    > But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass
                                    > cover is essential Cow
                                    > pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as
                                    > ground cover crop
                                    > seasonal.
                                    > .But we need permanent self seeding and growing
                                    > variety as white clover and
                                    > Subabul which will cover land through out the year
                                    > and will not allow any
                                    > weed to give problem.
                                    > "I want to share one story, one of my friend was
                                    > very much worried about
                                    > strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was
                                    > unable to take any crop
                                    > because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing.
                                    > We explain him about
                                    > natural way of farming, he agreed for
                                    > experimentation., we simply scattered
                                    > Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season
                                    > and ask them to cut
                                    > back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been.
                                    > He did accordingly, and
                                    > harvested better crop than near by farmers of
                                    > village."
                                    >
                                    > But next year he came back on modern scientific
                                    > agriculture, with the
                                    > thought that if we can take good crop without doing
                                    > any thing , we will get
                                    > more and more by doing more.This is the one of the
                                    > reason for non adopting
                                    > Natural way of farming.
                                    > Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in
                                    > Banglore.People are very much
                                    > against of this weed .People saying that this
                                    > creating some diasease all
                                    > falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as
                                    > ground cover in the
                                    > beginning later we can change as per our
                                    > convenience.
                                    > RajuTitus
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On 11/5/07, Nandan Palaparambil
                                    > <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear Raju,
                                    > >
                                    > > Subabul does not provide any grains or fruits. Is
                                    > it
                                    > > possible to use anything like Cowpea or blackgram
                                    > ? At
                                    > > least I have heard of farmers using Cowpea in
                                    > summer.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards,
                                    > > Nandan
                                    > >
                                    > > --- Raju Titus <rajuktitus@...
                                    > <rajuktitus%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Dear friend,
                                    > > > I am Raju Titus doing Fukuoka Farming in
                                    > Hoshangabad
                                    > > > M.P. India since 85-86.
                                    > > > White clover is a natural weed in Japan it is
                                    > > > leguminous. There is no such
                                    > > > weed is available which grows in abundance in
                                    > our
                                    > > > place..So many indian
                                    > > > leguminus variety of weeds /crops are available
                                    > such
                                    > > > as Berseem ,lucern etc.
                                    > > > But Question is what for you are interested?
                                    > Fukuoka
                                    > > > is using this weed in
                                    > > > his Rice?Wheat rotation field for Ground cover
                                    > ,weed
                                    > > > control,nitrogen
                                    > > > fixing,insect control,water conservation,
                                    > organic
                                    > > > mulching etc.
                                    > > > We tried so many varieties but found Subabul
                                    > > > (acacia). Subabul is a strong,
                                    > > > deep rooted ,wild and leguminous for above
                                    > mentioned
                                    > > > uses.I found no any
                                    > > > natural weed cover which can solve this problem.
                                    > > > Crops of grass variety do well in non- grass
                                    > ground
                                    > > > cover and leguminous
                                    > > > crops do well in grass covered land.
                                    > > > Therefore my advise is instead of elimination of
                                    > > > weeds we must learn
                                    > > > growing crops in natural weed cover of our area.
                                    > > > Thanks
                                    > > > Raju
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On 11/5/07, shashi.pkumar@...
                                    > <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>
                                    > > > <shashi.pkumar@...
                                    > <shashi.pkumar%40wipro.com>> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Dear Sir/List Members
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Could you please let know local Indian name
                                    > > > (Hindi, Kannada, or for that
                                    > > > > matter any local Indian name) for white
                                    > clover?
                                    > > > Also, could you please let
                                    > > > > know where will I get White Clover Seeds in
                                    > India?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Regards
                                    > > > > Shashi
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > > > removed]
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > >
                                    > > __________________________________________________
                                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                    > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
                                    > protection around
                                    > > http://mail.yahoo.com
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    > removed]
                                    >
                                    >



                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                                  • karoubas
                                    Dear Raju, Robin and all I also think what Raju has said is very important - and we thank him for it. But I have reservations/questions about the use of
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Nov 19, 2007
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                                      Dear Raju, Robin and all

                                      I also think what Raju has said is very important - and we thank him
                                      for it.

                                      But I have reservations/questions about the use of Sababul acacia or
                                      any fast spreading nitrogen fixing acacia, in a working farm.

                                      Fukuoka-san from what I understand has a few Acacia
                                      mearnsii on his farm - he does not use them as a ground cover - he
                                      uses nitrogen fixing clovers - its great that this tree is so useful
                                      to Raju, but many doubts remain in my mind about this path to ground
                                      cover and nitrogen fixing. I will raise a few points, that I hope can
                                      be discussed.

                                      - it must be difficult to walk around on the farm with all the tree
                                      stubs in the ground - as time goes by don't they become thick and
                                      difficult to cut? when you cut them do you have to cut them just below
                                      the soil ?

                                      - if you decide you do not want to use them anymore -how on earth do
                                      you get rid of them ?

                                      - do you grow them even in areas where you grow your vegetables and
                                      wheat ?

                                      - don't all these tree stubs interfere with the farm operations -
                                      fruit, vegetable and wheat/rice harvesting ?

                                      Its a great and fast way to regenerate depleted land - but the main
                                      purpose of a do nothing farm is to do as little as possible - not to
                                      chase after tree stubs ?

                                      These are some of my thoughts, and I put them out for discussion.


                                      As an update the seeding projects here in Greece have gone well - the
                                      weather has cooperated with plenty of rain - the seed balls I have
                                      scattered at a nearby burned out forest, have small trees growing
                                      which makes me very happy.

                                      On my farm the seed balls have germinated - I am looking forward to
                                      spring to see what will survive and grow.

                                      Kostas













                                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "robin" <witchessocks@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > dear raju titus,
                                      >
                                      > ****this is very important, in my opinion, and bears
                                      repeating...********
                                      >
                                      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Raju Titus" <rajuktitus@>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > Dear friend Nandan,
                                      > > Any thing which cover land can be used as ground cover
                                      > > crop.Supposeyour land is covered by grass ,you can easily grow
                                      > > leguminous crops like
                                      > > Cow pea ,Black gram, Soybean etc. without tilling.
                                      > > But for Wheat or any grass family grain, non grass cover is
                                      > essential Cow
                                      > > pea,Black gram,Soy been,Vecth etc. can be used as ground cover crop
                                      > > seasonal.
                                      > > .But we need permanent self seeding and growing variety as white
                                      > clover and
                                      > > Subabul which will cover land through out the year and will not
                                      > allow any
                                      > > weed to give problem.
                                      > > "I want to share one story, one of my friend was very much worried
                                      about
                                      > > strong local weed known as" Gajar grass".He was unable to take any
                                      crop
                                      > > because of this weed.He asked me to do some thing. We explain him
                                      about
                                      > > natural way of farming, he agreed for experimentation., we simply
                                      > scattered
                                      > > Soy been in the cover of Gajar grass in rainy season and ask them
                                      to cut
                                      > > back Gajar grass after the germination of Soy been. He did
                                      > accordingly, and
                                      > > harvested better crop than near by farmers of village."
                                      > >
                                      > > But next year he came back on modern scientific agriculture, with the
                                      > > thought that if we can take good crop without doing any thing , we
                                      > will get
                                      > > more and more by doing more.This is the one of the reason for non
                                      > adopting
                                      > > Natural way of farming.
                                      > > Nandan, Gajar grass is also spreading in Banglore.People are very much
                                      > > against of this weed .People saying that this creating some
                                      diasease all
                                      > > falls theory, I like it very much it can be used as ground cover
                                      in the
                                      > > beginning later we can change as per our convenience.
                                      > > RajuTitus
                                      >
                                      > *********and also this is a great photo series; it lets me know how
                                      nature
                                      > should look on a natural farm (the kind of natural farm that i'm
                                      > aiming for).**********
                                      >
                                      > http://picasaweb.google.com/rajuktitus/Subabul
                                      >
                                      > *******for those of us who feel a need to "take care of what i already
                                      > have" before buying additional plants and seeds i notice that there
                                      > are quite a few wild "scrub trees" like black locust, wild cherry,
                                      > persimmon, black walnut and several others whose names allude me right
                                      > now, coming up on my grounds, in places where i've stopped mowing.
                                      > (sorry, i don't know the scientific names either, but pretty much any
                                      > tree like this will work); they
                                      > seem to appear around tall weeds. when i come across one of these
                                      > seedlings, i try to favor it.
                                      >
                                      > of course, the deer chew on these, which seems to stimulate more
                                      > shoots of these trees to come up (i call them my wolf trees). seems
                                      > like somewhere in "the natural way of farming", sensei fukuoka says to
                                      > encourage these whispy fast- growing shoots to grow, and then when
                                      > they get telephone-pole (height) size to fell them and mulch with
                                      > them. i have
                                      > found that when deer are allowed to chew/prune on your weeds and
                                      > trees, they spread low and makes the root stronger, making your soil
                                      > better and better. and some of these wolf trees outlast the deer and
                                      > spring up fast to get beyond the range of deer mouths.
                                      >
                                      > it seems to me that underneath the ground the roots of the wolf trees
                                      > knit together the whole area, which makes the ground so stable, like
                                      > a rain forest. as you so wisely revealed, you can plant legumes where
                                      > the grass grows, and grass or grains where there are weeds, or mulched
                                      > areas, or legume filled areas. and plant your veggies where there are
                                      > lots of legumes. and the trees are so whispy, you get enough sun, to
                                      > plant crops under them. you just have to open it up some, ever so
                                      > often, to keep some sun coming in.
                                      >
                                      > this summer i planted my cherry tomatoes in with the wild violet,
                                      > strawberries and wild strawberries and some variegated vinca and
                                      > didn't stake them. the tomatoes began to travel all over the tops of
                                      > this ground cover, touching down to the ground when they wanted to,
                                      > but being cushioned very well by this soft but vigorous ground cover.
                                      > i got hundreds of healthy happy cherry tomatoes off just one plant!
                                      >
                                      > i've got lots of grass, so this week i'm going to shake some alfalfa,
                                      > hairy vetch and red clover seeds (these are sold at the seed store in
                                      > my location) around the grass clumps. whatever winter legumes that
                                      > they sell in your area will work just as well as extra leguminous
                                      > ground cover. you never
                                      > know when
                                      > conditions are perfect for winter legumes such as those.
                                      >
                                      > whatever you have will work, just as you say, raju titus...it can be
                                      very
                                      > inexpensive, if you want it to be!***********robin******
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • robin
                                      dear kostas, do you have a copy of the natural way of farming? in the section on the practice of natural farming fukuoka-san discusses using many types of
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Nov 20, 2007
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        dear kostas,

                                        do you have a copy of "the natural way of farming? in the section on
                                        "the practice of natural farming" fukuoka-san discusses using many
                                        types of trees, including nitrogen-fixing trees, as part of his fruit
                                        tree orchards (in which he also planted his vegetables). i guess the
                                        term ground cover may have been mistakenly used (by me) in reference
                                        to pea-family trees. he still used clover as ground cover on the
                                        orchard floor along with manageable weeds.

                                        i don't believe he used these trees in his rice and barley fields at
                                        all, only clover and other small legumes. i don't know about his other
                                        grains right off the top of my head including wheat, where he put
                                        those. myself, i mix wheat seeds right in with my seed mixtures and
                                        they grow wherever, sometimes in drifts, sometimes singly. but if you
                                        are selling your wheat or need a big field of it, obviously you would
                                        have to have them in field of their own.

                                        my mind is not good enough to explain these types of questions myself,
                                        but here is a bit of what fukuoka-san says about a fruit tree orchard;

                                        "the same methods used in reforestation can also be used to plant
                                        fruit trees and set up an orchard. one should not clear and smooth the
                                        land with a bulldozer because this disturbs the humus-rich topsoil
                                        built up over a long period of time. land developed with a bulldozer
                                        and left virtually bare for ten years is washed free of it's topsoil,
                                        greatly shortening the economic life of the farm. rather than carting
                                        the trunks, branches, and leaves of felled trees off a contour cleared
                                        orchard site, it makes more sense to arrange this material along
                                        contour lines and wait for it to decompose naturally. the branches
                                        leaves, and roots of the trees decompose after several years, becoming
                                        a source of organic fertilizer that supplies nutrients to the growing
                                        fruit trees. at the same time a cover of organic matter helps to curb
                                        weed growth, prevent soil washout, stimulates the proliferation of
                                        microorganisms, and serves to enrich and otherwise improve the soil.

                                        "because tree branches and leaves when land is cleared interfere
                                        with farming operations, these are generally burned. but, like slash
                                        and burn agriculture, this sends the fertility of the land up in
                                        flames. as for tree roots, these work their way down to the deepest
                                        soil strata, contributing physically to the aggregation and structure
                                        of the soil. in addition, they also serve as a nutrient source and
                                        have a chelating action that solubilizes insoluble nutrients in the
                                        soil. if such valuable organic matter is dug up and disposed of when
                                        the land is cleared, this drastically changes natural conditions and
                                        so damages the soil that it unable to recover, even if holes are later
                                        dug in the ground and the same amount of organic matter returned".

                                        yes, it may be very inconvenient to have tree stubs everywhere,
                                        depending on your choice of farm machines, but, since fukuoka-san only
                                        used small hand tools, i guess it was not too much of a problem for him.

                                        of course, i'm just starting out, so i don't know much about farm
                                        efficiency.just the little bit i've observed over say 3 years and
                                        reading fukuoka-san books and looking up natural farming on the web
                                        and this group. i could very well be ignorant and wrong about many
                                        things. i may have misunderstood what fukuoka-san is saying. but i'm
                                        pretty sure that it is true that this is *a* method of natural
                                        farming, not
                                        necessarily *the* method. and this method of fukuoka-san's is a very
                                        good and well-tested method for the conditions and topography that his
                                        and many other regions have.

                                        i noticed when i felled a series of "tree of heaven" trees (which i
                                        wanted to get rid of) in an area, the ground changed over about two
                                        years. i had to pull the suckers, they become less over time, the
                                        stumps began to decompose, and the ground kind of sunk and formed
                                        small valleys in between the stumps. the border soil around this area
                                        spread out and settled. the soil sinks away from a rotten stump. i'm
                                        still observing the plants that seem to grow in these little valleys,
                                        so far it's clover, alfalfa, grasses, wild strawberry, onions, and
                                        really, everything that i've planted in terms of legumes and easily
                                        germinated plants (turnips, mustards, buckwheat, rye). i'm going to
                                        plant native, cereal, ornamental, indian and forage grasses, and their
                                        companion plants, in the spring and see how they do. mine is not a
                                        working farm at this time, but i'm working toward a grasses-based farm
                                        (it's a girl or an artist thing. ha!just kidding).grasses do well in
                                        lots of mulch. fast growing trees supply the leaves, branches, the
                                        mulch that i need. and the grasses growing near trees and stumps are
                                        very healthy looking. can anyone tell me anything that i need to know
                                        about growing grasses? i'm sure i'm still missing most of the
                                        concepts.but i'll keep trying to find out.

                                        kostas,congrajulations on your seedball successes! what seeds did you
                                        include
                                        in the seedballs? just curious.

                                        i've already been on here too long, but i'd like to come back later
                                        and relate what fukuoka-san says about black wattle (an acacia) and
                                        it's uses and
                                        benefits (in focus to your questions).*********robin***********

                                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "karoubas" <karoubas@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Dear Raju, Robin and all
                                        >
                                        > I also think what Raju has said is very important - and we thank him
                                        > for it.
                                        >
                                        > But I have reservations/questions about the use of Sababul acacia or
                                        > any fast spreading nitrogen fixing acacia, in a working farm.
                                        >
                                        > Fukuoka-san from what I understand has a few Acacia
                                        > mearnsii on his farm - he does not use them as a ground cover - he
                                        > uses nitrogen fixing clovers - its great that this tree is so useful
                                        > to Raju, but many doubts remain in my mind about this path to ground
                                        > cover and nitrogen fixing. I will raise a few points, that I hope can
                                        > be discussed.
                                        >
                                        > - it must be difficult to walk around on the farm with all the tree
                                        > stubs in the ground - as time goes by don't they become thick and
                                        > difficult to cut? when you cut them do you have to cut them just below
                                        > the soil ?
                                        >
                                        > - if you decide you do not want to use them anymore -how on earth do
                                        > you get rid of them ?
                                        >
                                        > - do you grow them even in areas where you grow your vegetables and
                                        > wheat ?
                                        >
                                        > - don't all these tree stubs interfere with the farm operations -
                                        > fruit, vegetable and wheat/rice harvesting ?
                                        >
                                        > Its a great and fast way to regenerate depleted land - but the main
                                        > purpose of a do nothing farm is to do as little as possible - not to
                                        > chase after tree stubs ?
                                        >
                                        > These are some of my thoughts, and I put them out for discussion.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > As an update the seeding projects here in Greece have gone well - the
                                        > weather has cooperated with plenty of rain - the seed balls I have
                                        > scattered at a nearby burned out forest, have small trees growing
                                        > which makes me very happy.
                                        >
                                        > On my farm the seed balls have germinated - I am looking forward to
                                        > spring to see what will survive and grow.
                                        >
                                        > Kostas
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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                                      • Dieter Brand
                                        Kostas, I think that perennials like acacias are particularly useful in hot and arid climates where annuals will go dry for part of the year. During the dry
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Nov 21, 2007
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                                          Kostas,

                                          I think that perennials like acacias are particularly useful in hot
                                          and arid climates where annuals will go dry for part of the year.
                                          During the dry part of the year, the perennials continue to
                                          produce biomass and prevent weeds from getting out of hand.
                                          I’m not convinced that N-fixing of acacias or other leguminous
                                          trees is that important. N volatizes quickly, and if not immediately
                                          used by a crop it will either benefit the weeds or disappear. Also,
                                          it is hardly likely that the N fixed by acacias will be spread evenly
                                          across the whole field. If you want to boost the growth of your
                                          crop, it is far better to grow a legume like vetch, lupines or clover
                                          prior to growing your crop. I have never come across any data
                                          regarding the amount of N fixed by acacias or information about
                                          when this N is made available to other plants. Anyway, what I
                                          want to say with this long introduction is that, in a hot and dry
                                          climate, any perennial (bush, shrub, tree or perennial grass) that
                                          will grow well in that climate is suitable for producing the biomass
                                          whose carbon and other nutrients will build soil organic matter
                                          and improve soil quality over the long run. This is more important
                                          than the N fixed by acacias.

                                          Regarding how to use perennials in agriculture, I can imagine
                                          a number of scenarios:
                                          A) Litter from a few large trees in the fields aliments the soil and
                                          suppresses weeds. After sowing a crop, some of the branches are cut
                                          to cover the seeds and to let in more sunlight. What needs to be tested
                                          is to what degree germination and crop growth will be inhibited by
                                          the trees and their leaves.
                                          B) A crop is broadcast into native shrubs or low growing bushes and
                                          trees. The shrubs etc. are then cut to cover the seeds. This works
                                          well, but can’t be practiced every year, since the native shrubs usually
                                          take at least two years to grow again from seed.
                                          C) Shrubs, low-growing bushes or perennial grasses (vetiver grass has
                                          been mentioned) that will grow again after cutting are planted in rows.
                                          The crop is sown between the rows and the perennials are either cut to
                                          the ground or as a low hedge. The cuttings will cover the seeds and
                                          feed the soil. What needs to be tested is to what degree the roots of
                                          the perennials, that keep on growing, will interfere with the crop. It
                                          always comes down to what combination of plants to chose.

                                          There are probably other ways of using perennials in agriculture.

                                          Dieter Brand
                                          Portugal



                                          ---------------------------------
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                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • yarrow@sfo.com
                                          At 2:37 PM +0000 11/20/07, robin wrote: .... i m going to plant native, cereal, ornamental, indian and forage grasses, and their companion plants, in the
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                            At 2:37 PM +0000 11/20/07, robin wrote:
                                            .... i'm going to
                                            plant native, cereal, ornamental, indian and forage grasses, and their
                                            companion plants, in the spring and see how they do. mine is not a
                                            working farm at this time, but i'm working toward a grasses-based farm
                                            (it's a girl or an artist thing. ha!just kidding).grasses do well in
                                            lots of mulch. fast growing trees supply the leaves, branches, the
                                            mulch that i need. and the grasses growing near trees and stumps are
                                            very healthy looking. can anyone tell me anything that i need to know
                                            about growing grasses? i'm sure i'm still missing most of the
                                            concepts.but i'll keep trying to find out.
                                            ....


                                            For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                            which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:


                                            http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL

                                            The potential for growing food from perennial crops

                                            Deborah K. Rich, Special to The Chronicle

                                            Saturday, November 24, 2007

                                            Perennial crops have great potential. Yet they hardly figure in the
                                            world's calorie consumption.

                                            The world's major grains, food legumes and oilseeds - including all
                                            of its wheat, rice, corn, barley, soybeans, cottonseed and dry beans
                                            - are annuals. These crops covered 80 percent of harvested cropland
                                            in 2004.

                                            A food system based upon plants that start each growing season anew
                                            from seeds is inherently risky.

                                            Farmers' efforts to reduce the risk often degrade soil and water and
                                            accelerate the buildup of greenhouse gasses.

                                            Many crop seeds won't germinate if the soil is too hot, cold, wet,
                                            dry, crowded or full of clods. With plow and disc, farmers clear the
                                            soil of weeds and debris and slice it into a fine crumb. If it's a
                                            spring planting, they wait for the soil to warm. For a fall planting,
                                            they wait for it to cool. In the arid West, farmers "irrigate up"
                                            before planting; in the changeable Midwest, they squeeze in planting
                                            between thunderstorms.

                                            Weeds enjoy the farmers' carefully prepared seedbed just as much as
                                            crops. Farmers cultivate, spray herbicides or hoe to keep weeds under
                                            control while their crops get established.

                                            There is a beginning for perennials as well, complete with seedbed
                                            and coddling of seedlings. But the initial soil disturbance and
                                            fieldwork pay off for several years.

                                            Alfalfa, a legume grown for animal feed, often produces for five
                                            years or more. Without the need to disc and plant each year, tractor
                                            use is less, fuel use declines and the soil suffers less degradation.

                                            Agroecologist Jerry Glover of the Land Institute demonstrates the
                                            power of perennial plants.

                                            Arms outstretched, he holds up a clump of annual wheat in one hand
                                            and a handful of wild perennial wheatgrass in the other. While the
                                            slender roots hanging from the clump of wheat fall barely to Glover's
                                            elbow, the boisterous tangle of wheatgrass roots tumbles down to his
                                            feet.

                                            "You can visualize roots as a series of safety nets for the soil," he
                                            says. "Safety nets not only with depth, but extending over time."

                                            Within the first year of planting, the roots of perennial crops leave
                                            little room for weeds. Glover thinks that a reduction in herbicide
                                            costs of four to 8 1/2 times is a conservative estimate.

                                            "I have 5-year-old wheatgrass plots that are weed-free and have never
                                            had herbicides," says Glover. That saves money, reduces tractor
                                            passes and benefits environmental health.

                                            Perennial crops extend the growing season, partly by already being in
                                            the ground as winter is ending. In states such as Kansas, where the
                                            Land Institute is located, it isn't unusual for only half the days in
                                            a month to be suitable for planting.

                                            Perennials start growing first. "Root activity can take place at much
                                            cooler temperatures than seeds can germinate," he said.

                                            They also stretch out the growing season. In late September, Glover's
                                            wheatgrass had already regrown 4 to 6 inches after being harvested in
                                            August while he waits to reseed his wheat field.

                                            "Our annual winter wheat won't do well at all in July or August,"
                                            says Glover. "It doesn't even matter if we can get the seed to
                                            germinate; the winter wheat just can't grow in those temperatures,
                                            and the surface of the soil is too dry for the seedlings. Yet our
                                            perennial wheatgrass, because its roots are deep down, is able to
                                            reach where the soil is more buffered against extremes in temperature
                                            and moisture."

                                            Reaching deep into the soil year-round, perennial roots make more
                                            efficient use of nitrogen inputs, half of which can leach out of the
                                            root zone before plants can make use of it.

                                            "Nitrogen in the soil typically moves with water," says Glover. "You
                                            don't want to have water flowing through the system unused. Picture
                                            Iowa in April or May. There's no crop growing because it's too cold,
                                            but yet they're getting a lot of rainfall."

                                            Not only are nitrate losses a waste of an expensive input - the price
                                            of nitrogen is on the rise along with the price of oil - nitrates
                                            draining into waterways fuel the spread of coastal dead zones.

                                            Spring and summer nitrate flows out the mouth of the Mississippi
                                            River cause massive algae blooms that rob the water of oxygen and
                                            create dead zones in the Gulf of Mexico.

                                            The perennial web of roots holds onto more than nitrogen.

                                            The roots anchor the soil and reduce erosion. A study begun in 1888
                                            at the University of Missouri measured the depth of topsoil remaining
                                            after 100 years of continuous farming.

                                            Topsoil under plots of perennial timothy grass (a crop cut for hay)
                                            was more than two times deeper than the topsoil remaining under
                                            annual corn, and almost 1 1/2 times deeper than the topsoil remaining
                                            under a six-year rotation of corn, oats, wheat, clover and timothy
                                            grass.

                                            With the world's population growing, agriculture must anchor all the
                                            soil it can as ever more marginal land is pushed into production.

                                            "We get away with a lot here in North America because our soils are
                                            so rich, fertile and deep. The thinner or more poor your soils are,
                                            the more you need perennials there to safeguard them," says Glover.

                                            Conversion to perennials cannot happen overnight.

                                            The Land Institute began its perennial breeding programs in 2000.
                                            Today it has four breeders and total funding of approximately $2
                                            million.

                                            Glover estimates that the institute is probably at least 25 years out
                                            from having a high-yielding perennial substitute for a major grain.
                                            The world may come asking for seed sooner.

                                            "How far out we are from having a product partly depends on
                                            expectations," says Glover. "Our wheatgrass, for example, right now
                                            out-yields some of the world's minor annual crops, such as Ethiopian
                                            teff, in a good year. Also, for some of the non-food-crop oilseeds,
                                            you don't have all the taste and handling requirements that you have
                                            for wheat. You want a very consistent bread, but for oil you're more
                                            flexible. And how far we are from a commercially viable crop will
                                            partly depend upon world resources."

                                            This article appeared on page F - 9 of the San Francisco Chronicle

                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • pattyloof
                                            ... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@... wrote:

                                              > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                              > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL


                                              I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                              intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !

                                              I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                              can get this?

                                              Patty
                                              Oklahoma, USA
                                            • Robert Monie
                                              Hi Patty, You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                                Hi Patty,

                                                You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in
                                                Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and both make good sod.

                                                Bob Monie
                                                New Orleans, La
                                                Zone 8



                                                pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                                                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@... wrote:

                                                > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                                > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL

                                                I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                                intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !

                                                I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                                can get this?

                                                Patty
                                                Oklahoma, USA






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Robert Monie
                                                Hi Patty, You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Hi Patty,

                                                  You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock Seed Farms in
                                                  Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are perennial and both make good sod.

                                                  Bob Monie
                                                  New Orleans, La
                                                  Zone 8



                                                  pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                                                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@... wrote:

                                                  > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                                  > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL

                                                  I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                                  intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !

                                                  I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                                  can get this?

                                                  Patty
                                                  Oklahoma, USA






                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • pattyloof
                                                  Thank you! Patty ... Seed Farms in ... perennial and both make good sod. ... http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 5, 2007
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                                                    Thank you!

                                                    Patty

                                                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
                                                    wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Hi Patty,
                                                    >
                                                    > You can get two varieties of Thinopyrum intermedium from Stock
                                                    Seed Farms in
                                                    > Murdock, Nebraska. Call them at 1-800-759-1520. Both are
                                                    perennial and both make good sod.
                                                    >
                                                    > Bob Monie
                                                    > New Orleans, La
                                                    > Zone 8
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > pattyloof <pattyloof@...> wrote:
                                                    > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, yarrow@ wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > > For info on growing grasses, look into the Land Institute in Kansas,
                                                    > > which is mentioned in this article on perennial wheat:
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    >
                                                    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/11/24/HOFKT0670.DTL
                                                    >
                                                    > I looked around and discovered that this is Thinopyrum intermedium, or
                                                    > intermediate wheatgrass, a perennial hardy to -38F !
                                                    >
                                                    > I'm having trouble finding a seed source though. Anyone know where you
                                                    > can get this?
                                                    >
                                                    > Patty
                                                    > Oklahoma, USA
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    >
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