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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Carbon energy in mulch / compost / export

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  • michael
    Yeah, except they re the best we ve got. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    Message 1 of 30 , Nov 2, 2007
      Yeah, except they're the best we've got.

      On Nov 2, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Peter wrote:

      > It seems batteries are a very lousy way to store energy.



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Peter the
      ... That is on the face of it true Michael, ... but I have not seen any manufacturer offer anything more than a 10 year warranty. And that assumes they will
      Message 2 of 30 , Nov 2, 2007
        On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter the Soil & Health Fan wrote:

        | * Solar panels: for 600W will cost me $5K _and_ I will have to replace
        | them in 10 years. That's $500/year. Can I sell farm produce for
        | $500/year from 1 dka ($2000/year from an acre)? Probably not. How much
        | land do I have to have and how much work do I need to do on the land to
        | earn money to keep replacing solar panels.
        |


        On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, michael wrote:

        | Solar panels for 600W will cost you less than $2400 and will have at
        | least a 25 year life.

        That is on the face of it true Michael,

        ... but I have not seen any manufacturer offer anything more than a 10
        year warranty. And that assumes they will be in business in 10 years,
        which I consider not very likely.


        |
        | Batteries and inverter are extra.
        |

        ... and installation. By the time you add them, it doubles the cost.
        Hence my $5K estimate. So we are talking the same thing here.


        Of course, this strategy assumes that the cost correctly represents the
        embedded energy, which my arguments it does not (see below). So 10 years
        down the line the solar panel users are up for a rude awakening.

        If we only need to power ourselves for 10 years, I guess one can still
        rely on (intermittent) grid power.


        |
        | Run your computer when the sun is shining. Buy a new generation small
        | laptop and you will not need 600W.
        |

        True, like in http://laptop.org/.


        But imagine that I don't want to run wireless (for fear of wrecking my
        family's pineal glands) and for a family I need a wired switch, several
        computers, a printer, a storage/backup server, a digital tape library ...

        May be a workplace, for actual computer-related work, something like
        http://www.lemis.com/grog/Photos/20020202/grog-in-office.html .

        How about if I want to brew beer and need to power the control equipment:
        http://www.lemis.com/grog/brewing/temperature-control.html

        Or listen to AC/DC on the stereo? (Arguably, this wold be Satanic
        worship, but how about Mozart?)


        On Fri, 2 Nov 2007, michael wrote:

        | Yeah, except they're the best we've got.
        |
        | On Nov 2, 2007, at 11:16 AM, Peter wrote:
        |
        | > It seems batteries are a very lousy way to store energy.


        Yeah.

        I guess they are good for very-rapid access of small amounts of energy,
        especially NiMH or Li-ion ones. Something like the primary cache of the
        CPU. We need some secondary caches. May be an array of ~10 boat
        batteries that power the house for a day or two, or a week? But we also
        need something to convert (probably in batch mode, preferably with heat
        co-generation) carbohydrates (preferably cellulose), alcohol (gasoline),
        or fat (diesel) into lead-acid battery charge.

        --Peter.


        On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter the Soil & Health Fan wrote:

        |
        | That is, assuming that in 10 years there will be a reasonably well
        | functioning society which will sell me solar panels. That is, assuming
        | they did not figure it out that the $8/W was a price in which $20/bbl oil
        | was embedded and they stupidly keep the price the same
        | (inflation-adjusted) in 10 years.
        |
        | Oil is already 5 times as expensive from when it was embedded in the
        | panels (and the dollar is not even twice cheaper). More probably, oil
        | will be another five times as expensive in a few years, against 2x
        | inflation in dollars. So, in 10 years, it will doom on the solar panel
        | industry that $8/W (in today's USD) is 4-5 times cheaper than the cost of
        | manufacture/installation. Hence, I will have to work 20 dka (5 acres) to
        | pay for solar panels that produce 1/10% the energy of 1 dka. Not a good
        | deal, I'd say.
        |
        |
      • michael
        You are confusing warranty with useable life. I prefer useable life which is at least 25 years for current solar panels. You can keep the warranty for if the
        Message 3 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
          You are confusing warranty with useable life. I prefer useable life
          which is at least 25 years for current solar panels. You can keep
          the warranty for if the company is not credible, neither is the
          warranty.

          I have solar thermal panels which are more than 20 years old and
          which I bought for a song and which work very well supplying the heat
          I need.

          On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Peter the wrote:

          > ... but I have not seen any manufacturer offer anything more than a 10
          > year warranty. And that assumes they will be in business in 10 years,
          > which I consider not very likely.



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • michael
          Which you should be doing yourself. It is not difficult. If you engage in biodynamic farming, your labor rate is fairly cheap. ... [Non-text portions of this
          Message 4 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
            Which you should be doing yourself. It is not difficult. If you
            engage in biodynamic farming, your labor rate is fairly cheap.

            On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Peter the wrote:

            > | Batteries and inverter are extra.
            > |
            >
            > ... and installation.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • michael
            Well, no. Supercapacitors are good for rapid access to small amounts of energy but large amounts of power. Batteries are good for rapid access to large amounts
            Message 5 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
              Well, no.
              Supercapacitors are good for rapid access to small amounts of energy
              but large amounts of power.
              Batteries are good for rapid access to large amounts of energy.

              When running music off of batteries and needing considerable bass
              amplification, supercapacitors work with the batteries.

              On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Peter the wrote:

              > I guess they are good for very-rapid access of small amounts of
              > energy,



              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • michael
              The analogy between energy storage and computer caches does not hold. Computer caches are for making spacially local retrieval of information faster. Energy
              Message 6 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
                The analogy between energy storage and computer caches does not
                hold. Computer caches are for making spacially local retrieval of
                information faster.

                Energy or power retrieval is not usually spacial but temporal.

                On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Peter the wrote:

                > Something like the primary cache of the
                > CPU. We need some secondary caches.



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Peter the
                ... Solar electric panels have not been on the market for 25 years, so we do not know whether they _actually_ have 25 years of useful life. May be they do.
                Message 7 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
                  On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, michael wrote:

                  | You are confusing warranty with useable life. I prefer useable life
                  | which is at least 25 years for current solar panels. You can keep
                  | the warranty for if the company is not credible, neither is the
                  | warranty.

                  Solar electric panels have not been on the market for 25 years, so we do
                  not know whether they _actually_ have 25 years of useful life. May be
                  they do. May be they don't.

                  My expensive SONY TV was supposed to have 20+ years of useful life (which
                  my expensive Russian-built TV in the 1970 had), but it broke one month
                  after the two-year manufacturer warranty. Dell laptops are supposed to
                  have 20 years of useful life (which my Apple ][ definitely had) but these
                  break down like crazy even within their 1-year warranty.

                  So -- may be. may be it will be 25 year, may be 10, and maybe 3.


                  | I have solar thermal panels which are more than 20 years old and
                  | which I bought for a song and which work very well supplying the heat
                  | I need.

                  *) this is for _thermal_ panels, that do not have semi-conductor
                  technology in them. I am willing to believe that. We have a barrel on a
                  platform that we paint black from time to time, and it has been producing
                  acceptable bathing water for generations.

                  *) where does one buy solar thermal installations nowadays?

                  *) can one construct them at home?

                  --Peter.

                  |
                  | On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Peter the wrote:
                  |
                  | > ... but I have not seen any manufacturer offer anything more than a 10
                  | > year warranty. And that assumes they will be in business in 10 years,
                  | > which I consider not very likely.
                  |
                  |
                • Peter the
                  ... Sorta true. However: *) I personally want to have a _high_ labor rate :-) For example, Joel Salatin says that with his method one can make a 6-figure
                  Message 8 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
                    | On Nov 2, 2007, at 3:57 PM, Peter the wrote:
                    |
                    | > | Batteries and inverter are extra.
                    | > |
                    | >
                    | > ... and installation.
                    |

                    On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, michael wrote:

                    | Which you should be doing yourself. It is not difficult. If you
                    | engage in biodynamic farming, your labor rate is fairly cheap.
                    |

                    Sorta true. However:

                    *) I personally want to have a _high_ labor rate :-) For example, Joel
                    Salatin says that with his method one can make a 6-figure salary (in 1996
                    dollars).

                    *) In most places one needs a certified electrician to do the job, and
                    these are typically union jobs. Also we have shipping of the panels and
                    other materials, which probably adds some.

                    *) As an example, let's read from the electric tractor specs:

                    http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ETractorSpecs.htm

                    1 kW PV Canopy $ 8,000
                    2 kW PV Roof $18,000
                    4 kW PV Roof $28,000

                    The delta from 2 to 4KW is $5/W. But for the complete assemblies the
                    prices are $8/W, $9/W, and $7/W for 1, 2, and 4kW, respectively.

                    +) The cost of charging the 5 kWh battery pack from the utility grid is
                    approx. $0.50. [Hence $1 for the 10kWh battery.]

                    +) The 10 kWh battery pack is charged by the 2 kW PV Roof in one day.


                    Which basically means that an investment of $18K is producing an income of
                    $1/day. Even if have sun 300 days in the year (which we don't), the
                    return on the investment is $1/year for every $600 invested.


                    This is not my favorite idea of investment. There are places where one
                    can buy an acre of good land for $600. I will definitely make more than
                    $1 in annual income from an acre. Heck, one can probably do better even
                    in the desert!


                    Oh well ... so much for solar panels ...

                    --Peter.
                  • Peter the
                    ... ^^^^ $60 -- sorry. OK, a bit more, from http://www.renewables.com/Products/Unisolar2.htm rating, kW Solar panels cost Additional cost (*) total /W
                    Message 9 of 30 , Nov 6, 2007
                      On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter the wrote:

                      |
                      | *) As an example, let's read from the electric tractor specs:
                      |
                      | http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ETractorSpecs.htm
                      |
                      | 1 kW PV Canopy $ 8,000
                      | 2 kW PV Roof $18,000
                      | 4 kW PV Roof $28,000
                      |
                      | The delta from 2 to 4KW is $5/W. But for the complete assemblies the
                      | prices are $8/W, $9/W, and $7/W for 1, 2, and 4kW, respectively.
                      |
                      | +) The cost of charging the 5 kWh battery pack from the utility grid is
                      | approx. $0.50. [Hence $1 for the 10kWh battery.]
                      |
                      | +) The 10 kWh battery pack is charged by the 2 kW PV Roof in one day.
                      |
                      |
                      | Which basically means that an investment of $18K is producing an income of
                      | $1/day. Even if have sun 300 days in the year (which we don't), the
                      | return on the investment is $1/year for every $600 invested.
                      ^^^^
                      $60 -- sorry.

                      OK, a bit more, from http://www.renewables.com/Products/Unisolar2.htm

                      rating, kW Solar panels cost Additional cost (*) total /W
                      ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      1 6.0K 5.0K 11.0K 11.0
                      2 12.0K 6.0K 18.0K 9.0
                      3 18.0K 7.5K 25.5K 8.2
                      4 24.0K 9.0K 36.5K 8.1
                      6 34.5K 12.0K 46.5K 7.7
                      10 55.0K 15.0K 70.0K 7.0


                      (*) less batteries

                      (**) This represents all material and hardware cost including the roofing
                      in the panel area. There is almost no additional cost for panel
                      installation beyond the normal labor cost for roof installation. The labor
                      cost for installing the balance of the system is not included.


                      OK, so our cost for the installation of something that produces 600W for 3
                      hours a day is $11,000 (less batteries and labor), _not_ $5,000 as I
                      estimated earlier.

                      Even for a large-scale installation of 10kW, we produce 10,000 kWh/year,
                      or an income of $1000/year for an investment of $70,000, which is $1 for
                      every $70 invested. A fine investment this is (albeit inflation-proof :-)

                      Well, surely beats treasuries nowadays :-)

                      --Peter.

                      |
                      |
                      | This is not my favorite idea of investment. There are places where one
                      | can buy an acre of good land for $600. I will definitely make more than
                      | $1 in annual income from an acre. Heck, one can probably do better even
                      ^^^^
                      $10 -- sorry.

                      | in the desert!
                      |
                      |
                      | Oh well ... so much for solar panels ...
                      |
                      | --Peter.
                      |
                      |
                    • michael
                      Peter, pardon, this thread is a bit aged but I am just getting back to it. You are using victim economics. Take charge. Shop around. Do the work yourself.
                      Message 10 of 30 , Nov 25, 2007
                        Peter,

                        pardon, this thread is a bit aged but I am just getting back to it.

                        You are using victim economics. Take charge. Shop around. Do the
                        work yourself. This cannot be how you pursue sustainable agriculture
                        or it would not be working for you. Nothing of value is purchased.
                        You must build it yourself.

                        - Michael

                        On Nov 6, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Peter the wrote:

                        > On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter the wrote:
                        >
                        > |
                        > | *) As an example, let's read from the electric tractor specs:
                        > |
                        > | http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ETractorSpecs.htm
                        > |
                        > | 1 kW PV Canopy $ 8,000
                        > | 2 kW PV Roof $18,000
                        > | 4 kW PV Roof $28,000
                        > |
                        > | The delta from 2 to 4KW is $5/W. But for the complete assemblies the
                        > | prices are $8/W, $9/W, and $7/W for 1, 2, and 4kW, respectively.
                        > |
                        > | +) The cost of charging the 5 kWh battery pack from the utility
                        > grid is
                        > | approx. $0.50. [Hence $1 for the 10kWh battery.]
                        > |
                        > | +) The 10 kWh battery pack is charged by the 2 kW PV Roof in one
                        > day.
                        > |
                        > |
                        > | Which basically means that an investment of $18K is producing an
                        > income of
                        > | $1/day. Even if have sun 300 days in the year (which we don't), the
                        > | return on the investment is $1/year for every $600 invested.
                        > ^^^^
                        > $60 -- sorry.
                        >
                        > OK, a bit more, from http://www.renewables.com/Products/Unisolar2.htm
                        >
                        > rating, kW Solar panels cost Additional cost (*) total /W
                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                        > 1 6.0K 5.0K 11.0K 11.0
                        > 2 12.0K 6.0K 18.0K 9.0
                        > 3 18.0K 7.5K 25.5K 8.2
                        > 4 24.0K 9.0K 36.5K 8.1
                        > 6 34.5K 12.0K 46.5K 7.7
                        > 10 55.0K 15.0K 70.0K 7.0
                        >
                        > (*) less batteries
                        >
                        > (**) This represents all material and hardware cost including the
                        > roofing
                        > in the panel area. There is almost no additional cost for panel
                        > installation beyond the normal labor cost for roof installation.
                        > The labor
                        > cost for installing the balance of the system is not included.
                        >
                        > OK, so our cost for the installation of something that produces
                        > 600W for 3
                        > hours a day is $11,000 (less batteries and labor), _not_ $5,000 as I
                        > estimated earlier.
                        >
                        > Even for a large-scale installation of 10kW, we produce 10,000 kWh/
                        > year,
                        > or an income of $1000/year for an investment of $70,000, which is
                        > $1 for
                        > every $70 invested. A fine investment this is (albeit inflation-
                        > proof :-)
                        >
                        > Well, surely beats treasuries nowadays :-)
                        >
                        > --Peter.
                        >
                        > |
                        > |
                        > | This is not my favorite idea of investment. There are places
                        > where one
                        > | can buy an acre of good land for $600. I will definitely make
                        > more than
                        > | $1 in annual income from an acre. Heck, one can probably do
                        > better even
                        > ^^^^
                        > $10 -- sorry.
                        >
                        > | in the desert!
                        > |
                        > |
                        > | Oh well ... so much for solar panels ...
                        > |
                        > | --Peter.
                        > |
                        > |
                        >
                        >



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dieter Brand
                        Michael, I love these declamatory messages. Would you please explain to us common mortals what you mean by: - victim economics. - Take charge. - Shop around.
                        Message 11 of 30 , Nov 26, 2007
                          Michael,

                          I love these declamatory messages. Would you please explain
                          to us common mortals what you mean by:

                          - victim economics.
                          - Take charge.
                          - Shop around.
                          - Do the work yourself. (OK, I can understand this)
                          - Nothing of value is purchased.
                          - You must build it yourself.

                          Dieter Brand
                          Portugal

                          michael <mdearing@...> wrote:
                          Peter,

                          pardon, this thread is a bit aged but I am just getting back to it.

                          You are using victim economics. Take charge. Shop around. Do the
                          work yourself. This cannot be how you pursue sustainable agriculture
                          or it would not be working for you. Nothing of value is purchased.
                          You must build it yourself.

                          - Michael

                          On Nov 6, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Peter the wrote:

                          > On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter the wrote:
                          >
                          > |
                          > | *) As an example, let's read from the electric tractor specs:
                          > |
                          > | http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ETractorSpecs.htm
                          > |
                          > | 1 kW PV Canopy $ 8,000
                          > | 2 kW PV Roof $18,000
                          > | 4 kW PV Roof $28,000
                          > |
                          > | The delta from 2 to 4KW is $5/W. But for the complete assemblies the
                          > | prices are $8/W, $9/W, and $7/W for 1, 2, and 4kW, respectively.
                          > |
                          > | +) The cost of charging the 5 kWh battery pack from the utility
                          > grid is
                          > | approx. $0.50. [Hence $1 for the 10kWh battery.]
                          > |
                          > | +) The 10 kWh battery pack is charged by the 2 kW PV Roof in one
                          > day.
                          > |
                          > |
                          > | Which basically means that an investment of $18K is producing an
                          > income of
                          > | $1/day. Even if have sun 300 days in the year (which we don't), the
                          > | return on the investment is $1/year for every $600 invested.
                          > ^^^^
                          > $60 -- sorry.
                          >
                          > OK, a bit more, from http://www.renewables.com/Products/Unisolar2.htm
                          >
                          > rating, kW Solar panels cost Additional cost (*) total /W
                          > ----------------------------------------------------------
                          > 1 6.0K 5.0K 11.0K 11.0
                          > 2 12.0K 6.0K 18.0K 9.0
                          > 3 18.0K 7.5K 25.5K 8.2
                          > 4 24.0K 9.0K 36.5K 8.1
                          > 6 34.5K 12.0K 46.5K 7.7
                          > 10 55.0K 15.0K 70.0K 7.0
                          >
                          > (*) less batteries
                          >
                          > (**) This represents all material and hardware cost including the
                          > roofing
                          > in the panel area. There is almost no additional cost for panel
                          > installation beyond the normal labor cost for roof installation.
                          > The labor
                          > cost for installing the balance of the system is not included.
                          >
                          > OK, so our cost for the installation of something that produces
                          > 600W for 3
                          > hours a day is $11,000 (less batteries and labor), _not_ $5,000 as I
                          > estimated earlier.
                          >
                          > Even for a large-scale installation of 10kW, we produce 10,000 kWh/
                          > year,
                          > or an income of $1000/year for an investment of $70,000, which is
                          > $1 for
                          > every $70 invested. A fine investment this is (albeit inflation-
                          > proof :-)
                          >
                          > Well, surely beats treasuries nowadays :-)
                          >
                          > --Peter.
                          >
                          > |
                          > |
                          > | This is not my favorite idea of investment. There are places
                          > where one
                          > | can buy an acre of good land for $600. I will definitely make
                          > more than
                          > | $1 in annual income from an acre. Heck, one can probably do
                          > better even
                          > ^^^^
                          > $10 -- sorry.
                          >
                          > | in the desert!
                          > |
                          > |
                          > | Oh well ... so much for solar panels ...
                          > |
                          > | --Peter.
                          > |
                          > |
                          >
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          ---------------------------------
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • michael
                          Dieter, I was addressing Peter and I assume he understood. You are in Portugal but you write in perfect English. I am not sure what you need by way of context
                          Message 12 of 30 , Nov 28, 2007
                            Dieter,

                            I was addressing Peter and I assume he understood.
                            You are in Portugal but you write in perfect English. I am not sure
                            what you need by way of context but I can try - below.
                            I rather like declamation myself.

                            In turn, please explain

                            - common mortals.

                            - Michael

                            On Nov 26, 2007, at 4:18 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                            >> Michael,
                            >>
                            >> I love these declamatory messages. Would you please explain
                            >> to us common mortals what you mean by:
                            >>
                            >> - victim economics.
                            >>
                            Accepting the price quoted as published. This is the price the
                            vendor wishes you would pay. Call around, surf the Web, get the
                            price you want. If it's still too high, look for seconds. Still too
                            high, look into the ads for used. Still too high, try eBay.

                            In a larger sense, by example, this means buying electricity from
                            your local electrical monopoly because you think you have to. You
                            don't, and by selling it to them you send a message that granular may
                            be better.
                            >> - Take charge.
                            >>
                            of your life. This should be obvious.
                            >> - Shop around.
                            >>
                            See 'victim economics' above. You may wonder why 'victim'. Any one
                            of us can chose to be a victim, acceding to whomever's wishes, from
                            sales people to our fearless (?I am not sure about this) leader.
                            >> - Nothing of value is purchased.
                            >>
                            the thing you purchase (in this case PV panels) is of minimal value
                            in and of itself. It's mostly aluminum and silicon. The true value
                            arises when you put in your sweat equity and your commitment to your
                            role in reducing greenhouse gases, and mine the sun for your
                            electrical needs, as you do for your food needs.
                            >>
                            >> - You must build it yourself.
                            >>
                            I am not sure how to make this one clearer but thank you for the
                            opportunity. I doubt you would let someone else create your Fukuokan
                            world. I start to build something because I cannot afford to buy it,
                            or I do not know what I want. Then I find that building it brings
                            far more than saving money. Then I help someone else build it and it
                            brings even more. But to start, you must build it yourself.
                            >>
                            >> Dieter Brand
                            >> Portugal
                            >>
                            >>

                            > Peter,
                            >
                            > pardon, this thread is a bit aged but I am just getting back to it.
                            >
                            > You are using victim economics. Take charge. Shop around. Do the
                            > work yourself. This cannot be how you pursue sustainable agriculture
                            > or it would not be working for you. Nothing of value is purchased.
                            > You must build it yourself.
                            >
                            > - Michael
                            >
                            > On Nov 6, 2007, at 6:31 PM, Peter the wrote:
                            >
                            > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter the wrote:
                            > >
                            > > |
                            > > | *) As an example, let's read from the electric tractor specs:
                            > > |
                            > > | http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ETractorSpecs.htm
                            > > |
                            > > | 1 kW PV Canopy $ 8,000
                            > > | 2 kW PV Roof $18,000
                            > > | 4 kW PV Roof $28,000
                            > > |
                            > > | The delta from 2 to 4KW is $5/W. But for the complete
                            > assemblies the
                            > > | prices are $8/W, $9/W, and $7/W for 1, 2, and 4kW, respectively.
                            > > |
                            > > | +) The cost of charging the 5 kWh battery pack from the utility
                            > > grid is
                            > > | approx. $0.50. [Hence $1 for the 10kWh battery.]
                            > > |
                            > > | +) The 10 kWh battery pack is charged by the 2 kW PV Roof in one
                            > > day.
                            > > |
                            > > |
                            > > | Which basically means that an investment of $18K is producing an
                            > > income of
                            > > | $1/day. Even if have sun 300 days in the year (which we don't),
                            > the
                            > > | return on the investment is $1/year for every $600 invested.
                            > > ^^^^
                            > > $60 -- sorry.
                            > >
                            > > OK, a bit more, from http://www.renewables.com/Products/
                            > Unisolar2.htm
                            > >
                            > > rating, kW Solar panels cost Additional cost (*) total /W
                            > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                            > > 1 6.0K 5.0K 11.0K 11.0
                            > > 2 12.0K 6.0K 18.0K 9.0
                            > > 3 18.0K 7.5K 25.5K 8.2
                            > > 4 24.0K 9.0K 36.5K 8.1
                            > > 6 34.5K 12.0K 46.5K 7.7
                            > > 10 55.0K 15.0K 70.0K 7.0
                            > >
                            > > (*) less batteries
                            > >
                            > > (**) This represents all material and hardware cost including the
                            > > roofing
                            > > in the panel area. There is almost no additional cost for panel
                            > > installation beyond the normal labor cost for roof installation.
                            > > The labor
                            > > cost for installing the balance of the system is not included.
                            > >
                            > > OK, so our cost for the installation of something that produces
                            > > 600W for 3
                            > > hours a day is $11,000 (less batteries and labor), _not_ $5,000 as I
                            > > estimated earlier.
                            > >
                            > > Even for a large-scale installation of 10kW, we produce 10,000 kWh/
                            > > year,
                            > > or an income of $1000/year for an investment of $70,000, which is
                            > > $1 for
                            > > every $70 invested. A fine investment this is (albeit inflation-
                            > > proof :-)
                            > >
                            > > Well, surely beats treasuries nowadays :-)
                            > >
                            > > --Peter.
                            > >
                            > > |
                            > > |
                            > > | This is not my favorite idea of investment. There are places
                            > > where one
                            > > | can buy an acre of good land for $600. I will definitely make
                            > > more than
                            > > | $1 in annual income from an acre. Heck, one can probably do
                            > > better even
                            > > ^^^^
                            > > $10 -- sorry.
                            > >
                            > > | in the desert!
                            > > |
                            > > |
                            > > | Oh well ... so much for solar panels ...
                            > > |
                            > > | --Peter.
                            > > |
                          • Peter the
                            ... Michael, I did, and felt that no reply was necessary, but since it comes up again, here we go :-) ... This is a fantastic approach, and I use it all the
                            Message 13 of 30 , Nov 29, 2007
                              On Wed, 28 Nov 2007, michael wrote:

                              | I was addressing Peter and I assume he understood.

                              Michael,

                              I did, and felt that no reply was necessary, but since it comes up again,
                              here we go :-)

                              | >> - victim economics.
                              | >>
                              | Accepting the price quoted as published. This is the price the
                              | vendor wishes you would pay. Call around, surf the Web, get the
                              | price you want. If it's still too high, look for seconds. Still too
                              | high, look into the ads for used. Still too high, try eBay.

                              This is a fantastic approach, and I use it all the time personaly. But
                              there's no second-hand PV installations on eBay.

                              As for the prices I published, I did surf the web, and these were the
                              lowest I could find.

                              I did not bargain. Partly because I am not ready to buy, and partly
                              because a friend of my who drives quite a tough bargain recently installed
                              PV's and the economics did not change for him. He _did_ bargain, he _did_
                              get second hand, and he did install them himself. Still, when all is said
                              and done it was $6/W.

                              He did not delude himself for a second that this is a deal. He knows
                              perfectly well the concept of return-on-investment (on the dollar, he
                              could not care less about EROI). His economic analysis was the following.
                              Since the average price of installed panels is $9/W, he managed to get a
                              50% state subsidy on _that._ So his installation ended costing him $1.5/W.
                              He decided to steal $4.5/W from me, the tax payer. He likes that. Not
                              stealing from me personally, but using loopholes set up for the rich
                              (anybody care to guess whether W's house in Crawford has PV and whether he
                              paid full price) to re-distribute wealth from "more stupid" people to
                              himself.

                              Still, he can only get $0.10/year/W on his $1.50/W investment, which is
                              bad. Actually, in our state there is also "delivery" charge, so the
                              economics is slightly better. What made him do it ultimately is that he
                              figured (it does not take a friend-of-Peter to do it) that the USD will
                              burn into the ground. So, he is buying future income (energy, whose cost
                              is rapidly increasing) with today dollars whose value is rapidly
                              decreasing.

                              So ... this is the _economic_ analysis. PV makes sense if you can A)
                              steal by getting the subsidy, and B) steal by borrowing dollars with the
                              firm intent of not repaying back their full value, and C) on top, you
                              get second hand, bargain, _and_ do it your self.



                              | >> - Nothing of value is purchased.
                              | >>
                              | the thing you purchase (in this case PV panels) is of minimal value
                              | in and of itself. It's mostly aluminum and silicon.

                              ... and lots of embedded energy, in the form of design, manufacturing, and
                              distribution.

                              | The true value arises when you put in your sweat equity and your
                              | commitment to your role in reducing greenhouse gases, and mine the sun
                              | for your electrical needs, as you do for your food needs.

                              You can purchase the labor for installation, and the end result will be
                              just the same.

                              | >>
                              | >> - You must build it yourself.
                              | >>

                              Adam Smith once said that a husband is a fool to manufacture something
                              when he can purchase it more cheaply.


                              To give an example. It is quite obvious that people cannot grow back
                              pepper in Vermont (efficiently, at least :-) _However,_ black pepper is
                              extremely useful to preserve meat, which Vermont produces in abundance.
                              How do we do it then? Every Vermonter spend some time of the year in
                              India growing black pepper?

                              How about every Vermonter run a smelter and a forgery to make knives?

                              Obviously, there is need for commerce.


                              | I am not sure how to make this one clearer but thank you for the
                              | opportunity. I doubt you would let someone else create your Fukuokan
                              | world. I start to build something because I cannot afford to buy it,
                              | or I do not know what I want. Then I find that building it brings
                              | far more than saving money. Then I help someone else build it and it
                              | brings even more. But to start, you must build it yourself.

                              I don't think that the "build it yourself" mantra is universally valid.

                              There are basically three reasons I think people want to take charge and
                              build it themselves.

                              The most fundamental reason, I guess, is that in a mass market economy,
                              the products for market are geared for the "masses," and they never quite
                              meet _your_ needs. And when these needs are the health of your family,
                              the compromise of eating mass-market food is quite hard to justify.

                              Second, there is the issue of monopoly and submission to control. If
                              various entities control "entropy resources," say the fossil fuels
                              production and distribution chains (or the Chinese proletariat, for that
                              matter), then they can subsidize any product to the extent that it is
                              cheaper for you to buy it. Once you buy into the scam, two things happen:
                              A) you consume much more if you would otherwise do, and B) you loose the
                              ability to operate independently and become a serf yourself. Adam Smith
                              above still holds, you just need to put a value on "freedom."

                              Third, sometimes you tinker, invent, create.


                              Anyway, "build it yourself" requires a call of judgement each and every time.

                              --Peter.


                              | > > On Tue, 6 Nov 2007, Peter the wrote:
                              | > >
                              | > > |
                              | > > | *) As an example, let's read from the electric tractor specs:
                              | > > |
                              | > > | http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/ETractorSpecs.htm
                              | > > |
                              | > > | 1 kW PV Canopy $ 8,000
                              | > > | 2 kW PV Roof $18,000
                              | > > | 4 kW PV Roof $28,000
                              | > > |
                              | > > | The delta from 2 to 4KW is $5/W. But for the complete assemblies the
                              | > > | prices are $8/W, $9/W, and $7/W for 1, 2, and 4kW, respectively.
                              | > > |
                              | > > | +) The cost of charging the 5 kWh battery pack from the utility grid is
                              | > > | approx. $0.50. [Hence $1 for the 10kWh battery.]
                              | > > |
                              | > > | +) The 10 kWh battery pack is charged by the 2 kW PV Roof in one day.
                              | > > |
                              | > > |
                              | > > | Which basically means that an investment of $18K is producing an income of
                              | > > | $1/day. Even if have sun 300 days in the year (which we don't), the
                              | > > | return on the investment is $1/year for every $60 invested.
                              | > >
                              | > > OK, a bit more, from http://www.renewables.com/Products/Unisolar2.htm
                              | > >
                              | > > rating, kW Solar panels cost Additional cost (*) total /W
                              | > > ----------------------------------------------------------
                              | > > 1 6.0K 5.0K 11.0K 11.0
                              | > > 2 12.0K 6.0K 18.0K 9.0
                              | > > 3 18.0K 7.5K 25.5K 8.2
                              | > > 4 24.0K 9.0K 36.5K 8.1
                              | > > 6 34.5K 12.0K 46.5K 7.7
                              | > > 10 55.0K 15.0K 70.0K 7.0
                              | > >
                              | > > (*) less batteries
                              | > >
                              | > > (**) This represents all material and hardware cost including the roofing
                              | > > in the panel area. There is almost no additional cost for panel
                              | > > installation beyond the normal labor cost for roof installation.
                              | > > The labor cost for installing the balance of the system is not included.
                              | > >
                              | > > OK, so our cost for the installation of something that produces 600W for 3
                              | > > hours a day is $11,000 (less batteries and labor), _not_ $5,000 as I
                              | > > estimated earlier.
                              | > >
                              | > > Even for a large-scale installation of 10kW, we produce 10,000 kWh/year,
                              | > > or an income of $1000/year for an investment of $70,000, which is $1 for
                              | > > every $70 invested. A fine investment this is (albeit inflation-proof :-)
                              | > >
                              | > > Well, surely beats treasuries nowadays :-)
                              | > >
                            • michael
                              As does life. ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              Message 14 of 30 , Nov 29, 2007
                                As does life.

                                On Nov 29, 2007, at 7:53 AM, Peter the wrote:

                                > Anyway, "build it yourself" requires a call of judgement each and
                                > every time.



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Dieter Brand
                                Michael, Thanks for explaining your message. I never have been much into economics, but since you were kind enough to provide the explanations you did, I made
                                Message 15 of 30 , Nov 29, 2007
                                  Michael,

                                  Thanks for explaining your message. I never have been much
                                  into economics, but since you were kind enough to provide
                                  the explanations you did, I made an attempt to follow your dialogue
                                  with Peter. My feeling is that the science of economics (of which
                                  I am blissfully ignorant) is based on assumptions drawn from real
                                  life (hope you don't ask me to explain this one) which it can never
                                  fully take account of.

                                  For example, I live in a remote part of one of the EU's least
                                  developed regions. Most people are not connected to the grid
                                  and try to make do as best as they can with solar and wind energy.
                                  And whenever there is another EU-funded project to destroy some
                                  more untouched countryside with electricity lines, everyone without
                                  exception is eager to get on the grid and pay whatever price the
                                  monopoly provider happens to ask for. The economic principals
                                  you and Peter discussed don't seem to have much significance
                                  here. Further, Peter calculated the price per watt for solar energy;
                                  one factor this calculation does not take account of is the fact that
                                  you use electricity very differently if you rely on your own energy
                                  source. If you constantly need to have an eye on your solar
                                  batteries and check wheather they are still in the green range, you
                                  will use a lot less. Ironing is out of the question, so are hairdryers,
                                  air-conditioning, electric heating, electric ovens ... In fact, most
                                  people probably could get by with 10% of what they are using at
                                  present while they have at their disposal the unlimited resources
                                  of the grid. Even if it does not change the price per watt, this very
                                  much changes the cost of energy to you personally and to society
                                  as a whole.

                                  I don't want to comment on your declarations in detail, except
                                  perhaps to say that some of it sounds good on paper, but trying
                                  to put it into practice is quite a different cattle of fish. For example,
                                  the demand that "you must build it yourself". Sounds nice! But did
                                  you try? We moved out here from the city ten years ago, there
                                  was nothing, and there still isn't very much. But do you have any
                                  idea what it means to start learning: gardening, farming, food
                                  conservation and processing, house building, cutting trees, making
                                  furniture, water purification, plumbing, waste water treatment,
                                  electrical installations, solar and wind energy, telecom installations,
                                  maintaining basic machinery, the car .......... and that all at once?
                                  Each one of these could take you a lifetime.

                                  Dieter Brand
                                  Portugal

                                  PS:
                                  > - common mortals.
                                  Ironical; those not initiated into some secrete art.




                                  ---------------------------------
                                  Be a better pen pal. Text or chat with friends inside Yahoo! Mail. See how.

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Peter the
                                  ... Well ... because it is soooo cheap. Because it comes from fossil fuels, with a tremendous Energy-ROI (EROI). Dunno how much the average mix of EROI is on
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Nov 29, 2007
                                    On Thu, 29 Nov 2007, Dieter Brand wrote:

                                    | For example, I live in a remote part of one of the EU's least
                                    | developed regions. Most people are not connected to the grid
                                    | and try to make do as best as they can with solar and wind energy.
                                    | And whenever there is another EU-funded project to destroy some
                                    | more untouched countryside with electricity lines, everyone without
                                    | exception is eager to get on the grid and pay whatever price the
                                    | monopoly provider happens to ask for.

                                    Well ... because it is soooo cheap. Because it comes from fossil fuels,
                                    with a tremendous Energy-ROI (EROI). Dunno how much the average mix of
                                    EROI is on extracting and distributing crude and gas, but I've heard
                                    figures around 10:1 ??? I've heard that the EROI of agriculture i about
                                    2:1. So, it is obviously cheaper to connect to the grid and suck up
                                    neg-entropy from elsewhere.


                                    | The economic principles
                                    | you and Peter discussed don't seem to have much significance
                                    | here. Further, Peter calculated the price per watt for solar energy;
                                    | one factor this calculation does not take account of is the fact that
                                    | you use electricity very differently if you rely on your own energy
                                    | source. If you constantly need to have an eye on your solar
                                    | batteries and check wheather they are still in the green range, you
                                    | will use a lot less. Ironing is out of the question, so are hairdryers,
                                    | air-conditioning, electric heating, electric ovens ... In fact, most
                                    | people probably could get by with 10% of what they are using at
                                    | present while they have at their disposal the unlimited resources
                                    | of the grid. Even if it does not change the price per watt, this very
                                    | much changes the cost of energy to you personally and to society
                                    | as a whole.

                                    Dieter,

                                    It is true that when the cost is higher then consumption goes down, and
                                    ingenuity goes up.


                                    One of my points was that if the price of the PV's reflects even halfway
                                    the embedded energy of their manufacture, than their EROI is significantly
                                    less than 1:1 -- they are a net energy sink. Just like industial
                                    agriculture -- we can't run tany of them without oil.


                                    Also, I was originally addressing alternative means of spending your
                                    pennies to get a future stream of energy. PV's are a disaster. If you
                                    buy diesel right now for the price of PV's, you could burn it for 90 years
                                    at the PV energy production rate before it runs out. PV's purchased today
                                    surely will be long dead by then.

                                    My hypothesis is that the biggest bang for the buck, by an order of at
                                    least one magnitude, is to buy agricultural land and burn (in one way or
                                    another) some of the carbon that is being fixed on it.

                                    --Peter.
                                  • Dieter Brand
                                    Peter, ... That indeed is an hypothesis! I haven t seen it done. Dieter ... Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage. [Non-text portions of this message
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Nov 29, 2007
                                      Peter,

                                      >My hypothesis is that the biggest bang for the buck, by an order of at
                                      >least one magnitude, is to buy agricultural land and burn (in one way or
                                      >another) some of the carbon that is being fixed on it.

                                      That indeed is an hypothesis! I haven't seen it done.

                                      Dieter


                                      ---------------------------------
                                      Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your homepage.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Peter the
                                      I just became aware of a new (November 1, 2007) book on small-scale alcohol production, 640 pages, aun update on the author s 1983 work :
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Dec 3, 2007
                                        I just became aware of a new (November 1, 2007) book on small-scale
                                        alcohol production, 640 pages, aun update on the author's 1983 work :

                                        http://www.amazon.com/Alcohol-Can-Be-Gas-David-Blume/dp/0979043778

                                        We had an earlier discussion about Solargas:

                                        http://soilandhealth.org/copyform.aspx?bookcode=030223

                                        ... with some questions about celulosic alcohol below.


                                        Has anybody read David Blume? Is there anything new in the book,
                                        especially on cellulose? Are the 640 pages just stuff-and-fluff, or do
                                        they contribute nontrivially over the solagas book? Is the book worth the
                                        $35 that it sells for?


                                        The TOC [http://www.permaculture.com/node/186%5d and some of the reviews
                                        seem enticing:


                                        "Make no mistake, the book is more than a bully pulpit for championing
                                        sociopolitical opinions on global-energy woes; it is a technical how-to
                                        book. Written with enterprising do-it-yourselfers in mind, Blume offers
                                        countless hands-on technical solutions ranging from home stills to
                                        for-profit manufacturing strategies, and builds chapters on detailed
                                        charts, graphs, and step-by-step building instructions, giving
                                        activist-minded readers the data and resources they need to implement
                                        personal and individualized energy solutions. A well-executed, socially
                                        conscious, proactive, and rigorous call to action."


                                        --Peter.


                                        On Wed, 31 Oct 2007, Peter the Soil & Health Fan wrote:

                                        | Background: Under some assumptions, a hectare (1 ha = 2.5 acres) of
                                        | productive ecosystem fixes 15 MT/yr of above-ground carbon, with energy of
                                        | 60,000 kWh/year. If we assume 1000 hr/yr of "equivalent solar panel time,"
                                        | 1 ha is as productive as a 60kW installation, which in the US would cost
                                        | close to half a milion. Go figure.
                                        |
                                        |

                                        [...]

                                        | *) A "solargas" operation would seem to store some of the carbon
                                        | energy as alcohols, which arguably can be exported for energy value.
                                        | However, that requires starch/sugar-rich crops.
                                        |
                                        | ?) what are the best-performing starch/sugar field crops
                                        |
                                        | ?) how about cellulosic solargas -- any success stories
                                        |
                                        | *) How do we run a computer on straw?
                                        |


                                        On Sat, 13 Oct 2007, Peter the Soil & Health Fan wrote:

                                        | The description is in the Homesteading subsection of the Persolnal
                                        | Sovereignty section of the library:
                                        |
                                        | http://soilandhealth.org/03sov/0302hsted/0302homested.html
                                        |
                                        | The book request itself is at:
                                        |
                                        | http://soilandhealth.org/copyform.aspx?bookcode=030223
                                        |

                                        | | Peter the Soil & Health Fan <snh_fan@...> wrote:
                                        | | On Thu, 29 Jun 2006, Steve Solomon <stsolomo@...> wrote:
                                        | |
                                        | | | Title: Solargas.
                                        | | |
                                        | | | Significance: points out that the problem of energy scarcity is mostly
                                        | | | one of sociopolitical manipulation; that any energetic and half-way
                                        | | | bright person with a bit of resources behind them (small farm) can
                                        | | | produce a huge surplus of ethyl, all ongoing refining and processing
                                        | | | powered by the sun, using recycled equipment.
                                        |
                                        | [...]
                                        |
                                        | |
                                        | | On p.31 of the "Solargas" book, there is a section "Producing Alchohol
                                        | | Fuel from Wood and Waste Paper" that has as the only insightful snippet:
                                        | |
                                        | | "... cellulose material can be broken down by the addition of a fungus,
                                        | | trichonderma viride ..."
                                        | |
                                        | | OK, does that solve the cellulosic ethanol problem?
                                        | |
                                        | | Seems like this is quite an actively researched issue that has no widely
                                        | | known solution outside the latter sentence.
                                        | |
                                        | | From a cursory google search, it seems that trichonderma viride exists,
                                        | | and is sometimes used to digest cotton (as in "stone-washed" jeans).
                                        | |
                                        | | Can trichonderma viride work for a brew of weed stalks? Straw? Corn
                                        | | stalks? Where does one get starter culture?
                                      • shivnarayan gour
                                        DEAR FRIENDS, GREETINGS WISHING YOU A HAPPY & PROSOEROUS NEW YEAR 2008 Shivnarayan Gour shivnarayangour@gmail.com Mo. 094254 33229
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Dec 31, 2007
                                          DEAR FRIENDS,

                                          GREETINGS

                                          WISHING YOU A HAPPY

                                          &

                                          PROSOEROUS NEW YEAR 2008

                                          Shivnarayan Gour
                                          shivnarayangour@...
                                          Mo. 094254 33229
                                          www.khetkhaliyan.blogspot.com


                                          Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
                                        • Raju Titus
                                          Dear Shivnarayan, Nice to see you in this group. How are you and family ? SAME TO YOU Shalini and Raju ... [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Dec 31, 2007
                                            Dear Shivnarayan,
                                            Nice to see you in this group. How are you and family ?
                                            SAME TO YOU
                                            Shalini and Raju


                                            On 12/31/07, shivnarayan gour <shivnarayangour@...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > DEAR FRIENDS,
                                            >
                                            > GREETINGS
                                            >
                                            > WISHING YOU A HAPPY
                                            >
                                            > &
                                            >
                                            > PROSOEROUS NEW YEAR 2008
                                            >
                                            > Shivnarayan Gour
                                            > shivnarayangour@... <shivnarayangour%40gmail.com>
                                            > Mo. 094254 33229
                                            > www.khetkhaliyan.blogspot.com
                                            >
                                            > Unlimited freedom, unlimited storage. Get it now, on
                                            > http://help.yahoo.com/l/in/yahoo/mail/yahoomail/tools/tools-08.html/
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >


                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • michael
                                            Dieter, I haven t been reading the list since November. Too busy doing solar stuff. We moved from the city 30 years ago this July. And, yes, we did it
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 15, 2008
                                              Dieter,

                                              I haven't been reading the list since November. Too busy doing solar
                                              stuff.

                                              We moved from the city 30 years ago this July. And, yes, we did it
                                              ourselves. This was a patch of thistles.
                                              Gardening, yes. By the second year, we had a market garden and
                                              supplied restaurants in the city. (This was before I discovered
                                              Fukuoka.)
                                              Farming, yes, but only in the sense of our needs, not for sale.
                                              Food, I think you meant preservation, yes, although we've made this
                                              much less energy intensive since then. Those books were antiquated.
                                              House building, yes, but it took 8 years. A very patient partner is
                                              required.
                                              Cutting trees, yes; the wood in the house comes from our land, and we
                                              still have choice pieces of 8/4 set aside for whatever furniture.
                                              Cutting trees, yes; the scraps are cut into firewood and we've heated
                                              ourselves with it for 30 years.
                                              Making furniture, no; we have two neighbors 4 miles away that like
                                              to do it and do a good job using our wood.
                                              Water purification, not really; we filter our well water for radon
                                              but I would not call that purification.
                                              Plumbing, yes, and I am finally really good at it after the solar
                                              thermal system. I even managed to buy the copper before it became
                                              priced like gold. It took me 5 years to buy enough.
                                              Waste water treatment, no; it is required by law that we use licensed
                                              people for this. Pretty simple, really, but they want a person with
                                              a license.
                                              Electrical, yes; it was the only part I understood well in the
                                              beginning, although I did a little overkill that has since been to
                                              our benefit - I am able to control circuits in use. There is no
                                              energy conservation as final as a circuit which does not work unless
                                              the sun shines.
                                              Solar, yes; wind, no. I don't believe in wind power here; too hard
                                              to regulate, too spotty here, and too many moving parts - meaning
                                              maintenance. It's ok for others, just not me.
                                              Telecom, yes; a couple of poles and the wireless technology of the
                                              past 10 years have made it much simpler than the old days.
                                              Maintaining basic machinery, yes, have to; every time I ask someone
                                              else to do it, it comes back worse than when it left. But, I've had
                                              a wrench in my hand since I was 3.
                                              Car, yes, more machinery. I am tired of all this machinery but don't
                                              see a way around it yet. I am imagining a simple electrical all-
                                              around vehicle that I can plug into the PV panels.
                                              Each of these do take a lifetime, the same lifetime, and I can't
                                              think of a better way to 'spend' a lifetime. Amazing what gets done
                                              when you're at it a little every day. Beats flailing around in the
                                              city, or whatever people do going from box to box there.

                                              That being said, I appreciate the enormity of your undertaking. But
                                              what else would you do with your time?
                                              - Michael

                                              On Nov 29, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                                              > I don't want to comment on your declarations in detail, except
                                              > perhaps to say that some of it sounds good on paper, but trying
                                              > to put it into practice is quite a different cattle of fish. For
                                              > example,
                                              > the demand that "you must build it yourself". Sounds nice! But did
                                              > you try? We moved out here from the city ten years ago, there
                                              > was nothing, and there still isn't very much. But do you have any
                                              > idea what it means to start learning: gardening, farming, food
                                              > conservation and processing, house building, cutting trees, making
                                              > furniture, water purification, plumbing, waste water treatment,
                                              > electrical installations, solar and wind energy, telecom
                                              > installations,
                                              > maintaining basic machinery, the car .......... and that all at once?
                                              > Each one of these could take you a lifetime.
                                              >
                                              > Dieter Brand
                                              > Portugal



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                                            • Dieter Brand
                                              Michael, That sounds like a great experience. I didn t think there were people like that any longer. I hope you will stay on the list for a while, for purely
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                Michael,

                                                That sounds like a great experience. I didn't think there were people
                                                like that any longer. I hope you will stay on the list for a while, for purely
                                                selfish reasons of course, since it may allow us to benefit from your
                                                experience.

                                                Since you mentioned telecoms. That is one point I haven't been able
                                                to find a satisfactory solution for. In my parts they put in satellite links
                                                instead of landlines. Unfortunately, the system doesn't allow for the
                                                Internet. I have been using the mobile service, but being in the middle
                                                between two base stations, where the signal is the weakest, and at
                                                the bottom of a valley, where there is no signal without external
                                                antenna, the setup is precarious with the signal fading in and out.
                                                I know in the US there are relay stations for private use, but they
                                                probably wouldn't work with the different frequencies in Europe. Do
                                                you know of any such system that might work in Europe?

                                                >That being said, I appreciate the enormity of your undertaking.
                                                >But what else would you do with your time?

                                                Hm, perhaps you have got a point there. Who would want to go
                                                back to the rat race after life in the big wide open nature with not
                                                single car engine to be heard far and near. But fixing things can
                                                get a bit too much at times. I have a huge list of things to do
                                                which I try not to think about so as not to sink into utter despair.

                                                Dieter

                                                michael <mdearing@...> wrote:
                                                Dieter,

                                                I haven't been reading the list since November. Too busy doing solar
                                                stuff.

                                                We moved from the city 30 years ago this July. And, yes, we did it
                                                ourselves. This was a patch of thistles.
                                                Gardening, yes. By the second year, we had a market garden and
                                                supplied restaurants in the city. (This was before I discovered
                                                Fukuoka.)
                                                Farming, yes, but only in the sense of our needs, not for sale.
                                                Food, I think you meant preservation, yes, although we've made this
                                                much less energy intensive since then. Those books were antiquated.
                                                House building, yes, but it took 8 years. A very patient partner is
                                                required.
                                                Cutting trees, yes; the wood in the house comes from our land, and we
                                                still have choice pieces of 8/4 set aside for whatever furniture.
                                                Cutting trees, yes; the scraps are cut into firewood and we've heated
                                                ourselves with it for 30 years.
                                                Making furniture, no; we have two neighbors 4 miles away that like
                                                to do it and do a good job using our wood.
                                                Water purification, not really; we filter our well water for radon
                                                but I would not call that purification.
                                                Plumbing, yes, and I am finally really good at it after the solar
                                                thermal system. I even managed to buy the copper before it became
                                                priced like gold. It took me 5 years to buy enough.
                                                Waste water treatment, no; it is required by law that we use licensed
                                                people for this. Pretty simple, really, but they want a person with
                                                a license.
                                                Electrical, yes; it was the only part I understood well in the
                                                beginning, although I did a little overkill that has since been to
                                                our benefit - I am able to control circuits in use. There is no
                                                energy conservation as final as a circuit which does not work unless
                                                the sun shines.
                                                Solar, yes; wind, no. I don't believe in wind power here; too hard
                                                to regulate, too spotty here, and too many moving parts - meaning
                                                maintenance. It's ok for others, just not me.
                                                Telecom, yes; a couple of poles and the wireless technology of the
                                                past 10 years have made it much simpler than the old days.
                                                Maintaining basic machinery, yes, have to; every time I ask someone
                                                else to do it, it comes back worse than when it left. But, I've had
                                                a wrench in my hand since I was 3.
                                                Car, yes, more machinery. I am tired of all this machinery but don't
                                                see a way around it yet. I am imagining a simple electrical all-
                                                around vehicle that I can plug into the PV panels.
                                                Each of these do take a lifetime, the same lifetime, and I can't
                                                think of a better way to 'spend' a lifetime. Amazing what gets done
                                                when you're at it a little every day. Beats flailing around in the
                                                city, or whatever people do going from box to box there.

                                                That being said, I appreciate the enormity of your undertaking. But
                                                what else would you do with your time?
                                                - Michael

                                                On Nov 29, 2007, at 3:20 PM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                                                > I don't want to comment on your declarations in detail, except
                                                > perhaps to say that some of it sounds good on paper, but trying
                                                > to put it into practice is quite a different cattle of fish. For
                                                > example,
                                                > the demand that "you must build it yourself". Sounds nice! But did
                                                > you try? We moved out here from the city ten years ago, there
                                                > was nothing, and there still isn't very much. But do you have any
                                                > idea what it means to start learning: gardening, farming, food
                                                > conservation and processing, house building, cutting trees, making
                                                > furniture, water purification, plumbing, waste water treatment,
                                                > electrical installations, solar and wind energy, telecom
                                                > installations,
                                                > maintaining basic machinery, the car .......... and that all at once?
                                                > Each one of these could take you a lifetime.
                                                >
                                                > Dieter Brand
                                                > Portugal

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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • michael
                                                First thing to do is get rid of the list. It took me ten years to do this. I don t know why it took me so long to figure out the list was the problem. Lists
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                  First thing to do is get rid of the list. It took me ten years to do
                                                  this. I don't know why it took me so long to figure out the list was
                                                  the problem. Lists will capture you in the past and torture you.
                                                  Lists are by nature historic. The things one must do are all in the
                                                  future until they arrive in the present. Let them arrive and work on
                                                  them as the solution presents itself. It will. If you try to do the
                                                  fix before its time, the fix will be more difficult, will not last,
                                                  or will cause some other thing to need fixing.
                                                  That being said, I do plan, and then throw away the plan. The
                                                  creation of the plan is what will create my future. No need to hang
                                                  on to the plan while the future unfolds. Do another plan instead,
                                                  based on your better understanding of what it is you have to do.
                                                  The longer you wait to do something, waiting until the solution or
                                                  fix is obvious, the better the job will be.
                                                  I always refer to this as the Fukuoka way of life because it is
                                                  similar to how my growing of green things has evolved and is
                                                  evolving It took me about the same ten years to figure out what
                                                  Fukuoka's OSE meant to me.
                                                  - Michael

                                                  On Feb 16, 2008, at 3:15 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                                                  > I have a huge list of things to do
                                                  > which I try not to think about so as not to sink into utter despair.
                                                  >
                                                  > Dieter



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                                                • michael
                                                  If the satellites are KA band, there may be companies which provide the internet over satellite. There are in the US (look up wildblue.com). For the mobile
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 16, 2008
                                                    If the satellites are KA band, there may be companies which provide
                                                    the internet over satellite. There are in the US (look up
                                                    wildblue.com).

                                                    For the mobile approach,
                                                    if you can get permission to put something on one of the hilltops,
                                                    you can put a GSM (I presume your mobile is GSM - most of EU is)
                                                    transceiver there. Then you can put a local transceiver (like what
                                                    is now being called 'femto' by the cell companies) there which is
                                                    made to bring a mobile signal inside a building whose walls it cannot
                                                    get through. Your mobile handset will then pick up that signal. Or
                                                    you can convert the mobile transceiver signal to a wireless signal
                                                    (433 MHz is the cheapest here but you have to research the EU
                                                    frequencies - I am sure such exists in the EU) and then pick up the
                                                    wireless signal. There are very directional antennas which you would
                                                    use, but you need to know the EU frequency that is allowed.

                                                    Everything that is made for CDMA in the US is probably matched by the
                                                    equivalent made for GSM in the EU. The Germans and the Israelis are
                                                    the leaders in making this stuff, so you might look around on the Web
                                                    there.

                                                    - michael

                                                    On Feb 16, 2008, at 3:15 AM, Dieter Brand wrote:

                                                    > Since you mentioned telecoms. That is one point I haven't been able
                                                    > to find a satisfactory solution for. In my parts they put in
                                                    > satellite links
                                                    > instead of landlines. Unfortunately, the system doesn't allow for the
                                                    > Internet. I have been using the mobile service, but being in the
                                                    > middle
                                                    > between two base stations, where the signal is the weakest, and at
                                                    > the bottom of a valley, where there is no signal without external
                                                    > antenna, the setup is precarious with the signal fading in and out.
                                                    > I know in the US there are relay stations for private use, but they
                                                    > probably wouldn't work with the different frequencies in Europe. Do
                                                    > you know of any such system that might work in Europe?



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