Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [fukuoka_farming] Hay is enough!

Expand Messages
  • Shawn Turner
    I agree with Dieter! I have a small garden, for a couple of year I ploughed it. I noticed every year it become more compacted than the year before. So I
    Message 1 of 17 , Oct 3, 2007
      I agree with Dieter! I have a small garden, for a couple of year I ploughed it. I noticed every year it become more compacted than the year before. So I stopped ploughing it, I noticed even throughout the year my soil is less compacted. I use hay or straw, whichever one I can get my hands on. I dont water my plants, as I dont have too with 8 -10 inches of straw on the ground. It rains quite a bit in OHIO(USA). I also stopped removing organic waste from my garden.

      I chop and Drop! Some people say this will increase disease and pest. If you have a disease in your garden. This means that your soil is out of balance. I have not found this to be true. I dont really consider flies a pest. They aid in the decompositing process. I take my queues from nature. I have never seen a compost pile in nature. Things fall and compost where they lay. Nature is way more productive, than what man has created.

      I do not pull my plants once they are finish. I merely just shear them off at ground level. This way I dont bother my soil and it leaves the roots to decompose and enhance the soil.

      By using these methods my yield has increased. That's funny because all of my neighbors, were amazed at how much I produce without doing all of the conventional things people do to the soil to prepare for planting.
      Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
      Dear all,

      A little while ago somebody, I believe it was Nandan from
      India, asked about straw and whether it is sufficient for feeding
      the soil; some farmers had told him that straw doesn’t contain
      any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean. I think
      I answered in a general way about the importance of returning
      organic matter to the soil.

      Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors devouring
      some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I happened on
      some more specific information regarding this subject. I’m
      reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which is
      unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig Pommeresche
      is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of the bio-organic
      school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the importance of not
      disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the aerobic and
      anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned upside down
      as happens when a field is ploughed.

      Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil, or the
      edaphon part of it, it is better to return all organic “waste”
      directly to the soil surface rather than to first compost it.
      He also states that straw is better than woody mulch
      and that green grass or hay is better than straw, which has
      already passed some of its energy to the grain it produced.

      He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway for
      winter:
      - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter (vegetable,
      fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
      - sprinkle rock dust,
      - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves, straw
      or hay.
      This provides food and protection for the soil during
      the winter months. When the snow melts in the spring,
      the garden is ready for planting and the soil biology
      kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
      obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
      method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
      neighbour with conventional methods.

      I believe different strategies need to be used for hot
      and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
      of combining different types of green and woody
      mulches with compost. One method I have used
      consists of:
      - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
      - cutting the legume in spring,
      - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
      - covering this by
      - a layer of compost
      - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
      - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole from
      drying out.

      Dieter Brand
      Portugal

      ---------------------------------
      Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      ---------------------------------
      Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Nandan Palaparambil
      Dear Dieter, Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per acre. This is achieved just using straw
      Message 2 of 17 , Oct 4, 2007
        Dear Dieter,


        Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
        paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
        acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
        crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
        using NF in Indian condition?

        I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
        looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
        soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
        this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
        Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.

        Regards,
        Nandan

        > Dear all,
        >
        > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
        > Nandan from
        > India, asked about straw and whether it is
        > sufficient for feeding
        > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
        > doesn’t contain
        > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
        > I think
        > I answered in a general way about the importance
        > of returning
        > organic matter to the soil.
        >
        > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
        > devouring
        > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
        > happened on
        > some more specific information regarding this
        > subject. I’m
        > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
        > is
        > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
        > Pommeresche
        > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
        > the bio-organic
        > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
        > importance of not
        > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
        > aerobic and
        > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
        > upside down
        > as happens when a field is ploughed.
        >
        > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
        > or the
        > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
        > organic “waste”
        > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
        > compost it.
        > He also states that straw is better than woody
        > mulch
        > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
        > which has
        > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
        > produced.
        >
        > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
        > for
        > winter:
        > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
        > (vegetable,
        > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
        > - sprinkle rock dust,
        > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
        > straw
        > or hay.
        > This provides food and protection for the soil
        > during
        > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
        > spring,
        > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
        > biology
        > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
        > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
        > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
        > neighbour with conventional methods.
        >
        > I believe different strategies need to be used for
        > hot
        > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
        > of combining different types of green and woody
        > mulches with compost. One method I have used
        > consists of:
        > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
        > - cutting the legume in spring,
        > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
        > - covering this by
        > - a layer of compost
        > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
        > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
        > from
        > drying out.
        >
        > Dieter Brand
        > Portugal
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
        > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >



        ____________________________________________________________________________________
        Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
        http://tv.yahoo.com/
      • Dieter Brand
        Nandan, I have no idea whether there are any commercial farmers in India using NF techniques and what kind of yield they obtain. Regarding the second part of
        Message 3 of 17 , Oct 4, 2007
          Nandan,

          I have no idea whether there are any commercial farmers in
          India using NF techniques and what kind of yield they obtain.

          Regarding the second part of your question. What happened
          in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian gardener I
          quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was added to the
          soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer of humus-rich
          dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every year. It will
          take several years to obtain a layer of one or two inches
          because the volume of the mulch you apply will be much reduced
          after decomposition. If you start with very depleted soil you may
          want to apply one or two inches of compost covered by mulch
          as an initial soilbuilding means.

          Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much deeper than
          that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but I seem to
          remember that the roots of some annuals can go as deep as
          6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil you are building
          will never become as thick as that even after 30 years. But
          that doesn't matter, because the newly created topsoil will
          protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable roots to penetrate
          deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.

          Dieter Brand
          Portugal

          Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:

          Dear Dieter,

          Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
          paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
          acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
          crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
          using NF in Indian condition?

          I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
          looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
          soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
          this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
          Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.

          Regards,
          Nandan

          > Dear all,
          >
          > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
          > Nandan from
          > India, asked about straw and whether it is
          > sufficient for feeding
          > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
          > doesn’t contain
          > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
          > I think
          > I answered in a general way about the importance
          > of returning
          > organic matter to the soil.
          >
          > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
          > devouring
          > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
          > happened on
          > some more specific information regarding this
          > subject. I’m
          > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
          > is
          > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
          > Pommeresche
          > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
          > the bio-organic
          > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
          > importance of not
          > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
          > aerobic and
          > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
          > upside down
          > as happens when a field is ploughed.
          >
          > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
          > or the
          > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
          > organic “waste”
          > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
          > compost it.
          > He also states that straw is better than woody
          > mulch
          > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
          > which has
          > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
          > produced.
          >
          > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
          > for
          > winter:
          > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
          > (vegetable,
          > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
          > - sprinkle rock dust,
          > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
          > straw
          > or hay.
          > This provides food and protection for the soil
          > during
          > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
          > spring,
          > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
          > biology
          > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
          > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
          > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
          > neighbour with conventional methods.
          >
          > I believe different strategies need to be used for
          > hot
          > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
          > of combining different types of green and woody
          > mulches with compost. One method I have used
          > consists of:
          > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
          > - cutting the legume in spring,
          > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
          > - covering this by
          > - a layer of compost
          > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
          > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
          > from
          > drying out.
          >
          > Dieter Brand
          > Portugal
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
          > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >

          __________________________________________________________
          Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
          http://tv.yahoo.com/






          ---------------------------------
          Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • rajutitus lal
          Dear friend, I met Fukuoka two times first when we are in third year in 1988 he visited our farm with some N.G.O’s and second time in Ghandhi ashram Verdha
          Message 4 of 17 , Oct 4, 2007
            Dear friend,
            I met Fukuoka two times first when we are in third year in 1988 he visited our farm with some N.G.O’s and second time in Ghandhi ashram Verdha in 1999.

            I asked him about his Yield 22 Bushel was confusing than he spoke that in Japan language he tried to explained that it was near to one tone per quarter acre equal to best yield getting near by with scientific way of agriculture.

            My yield is just nearly half at present but equally good as our nabour taking with scientific method. I think that I am doing some mistake. The yield is dependent on so many factors.
            Second mulching is not extra work what crop residue you are getting leave it on same place, do not bring from out side or remove.
            So many factors affecting production, roots of any crop better knows where to go in seach of food and water.
            Nandan thank you very much for putting good questions, we need lot of questions for conversation.
            --Raju

            Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
            Dear Dieter,

            Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
            paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
            acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
            crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
            using NF in Indian condition?

            I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
            looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
            soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
            this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
            Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.

            Regards,
            Nandan

            > Dear all,
            >
            > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
            > Nandan from
            > India, asked about straw and whether it is
            > sufficient for feeding
            > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
            > doesn’t contain
            > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
            > I think
            > I answered in a general way about the importance
            > of returning
            > organic matter to the soil.
            >
            > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
            > devouring
            > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
            > happened on
            > some more specific information regarding this
            > subject. I’m
            > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
            > is
            > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
            > Pommeresche
            > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
            > the bio-organic
            > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
            > importance of not
            > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
            > aerobic and
            > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
            > upside down
            > as happens when a field is ploughed.
            >
            > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
            > or the
            > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
            > organic “waste”
            > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
            > compost it.
            > He also states that straw is better than woody
            > mulch
            > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
            > which has
            > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
            > produced.
            >
            > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
            > for
            > winter:
            > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
            > (vegetable,
            > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
            > - sprinkle rock dust,
            > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
            > straw
            > or hay.
            > This provides food and protection for the soil
            > during
            > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
            > spring,
            > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
            > biology
            > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
            > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
            > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
            > neighbour with conventional methods.
            >
            > I believe different strategies need to be used for
            > hot
            > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
            > of combining different types of green and woody
            > mulches with compost. One method I have used
            > consists of:
            > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
            > - cutting the legume in spring,
            > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
            > - covering this by
            > - a layer of compost
            > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
            > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
            > from
            > drying out.
            >
            > Dieter Brand
            > Portugal
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
            > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's
            > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been
            > removed]
            >
            >

            __________________________________________________________
            Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
            http://tv.yahoo.com/






            ---------------------------------
            Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nandan Palaparambil
            Dieter, Please see the link http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go to the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is mentioned In a plant, the
            Message 5 of 17 , Oct 5, 2007
              Dieter,

              Please see the link
              http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go to
              the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
              mentioned

              "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
              out only by the active white roots. These grow only in
              the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
              primarily provides the support for the plant".

              Just wanted to validate this statement.


              Regards,
              Nandan


              --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

              > Nandan,
              >
              > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
              > farmers in
              > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
              > they obtain.
              >
              > Regarding the second part of your question. What
              > happened
              > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
              > gardener I
              > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
              > added to the
              > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
              > of humus-rich
              > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
              > year. It will
              > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
              > inches
              > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
              > much reduced
              > after decomposition. If you start with very
              > depleted soil you may
              > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
              > by mulch
              > as an initial soilbuilding means.
              >
              > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
              > deeper than
              > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
              > I seem to
              > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
              > deep as
              > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
              > you are building
              > will never become as thick as that even after 30
              > years. But
              > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
              > topsoil will
              > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
              > roots to penetrate
              > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
              >
              > Dieter Brand
              > Portugal
              >
              > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Dieter,
              >
              > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
              > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
              > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
              > crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
              > using NF in Indian condition?
              >
              > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
              > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
              > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
              > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
              > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
              >
              > Regards,
              > Nandan
              >
              > > Dear all,
              > >
              > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
              > > Nandan from
              > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
              > > sufficient for feeding
              > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
              > > doesn’t contain
              > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
              > > I think
              > > I answered in a general way about the importance
              > > of returning
              > > organic matter to the soil.
              > >
              > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
              > > devouring
              > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
              > > happened on
              > > some more specific information regarding this
              > > subject. I’m
              > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
              > > is
              > > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
              > > Pommeresche
              > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
              > > the bio-organic
              > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
              > > importance of not
              > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
              > > aerobic and
              > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
              > > upside down
              > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
              > >
              > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
              > > or the
              > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
              > > organic “waste”
              > > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
              > > compost it.
              > > He also states that straw is better than woody
              > > mulch
              > > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
              > > which has
              > > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
              > > produced.
              > >
              > > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
              > > for
              > > winter:
              > > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
              > > (vegetable,
              > > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
              > > - sprinkle rock dust,
              > > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
              > > straw
              > > or hay.
              > > This provides food and protection for the soil
              > > during
              > > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
              > > spring,
              > > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
              > > biology
              > > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
              > > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
              > > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
              > > neighbour with conventional methods.
              > >
              > > I believe different strategies need to be used for
              > > hot
              > > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
              > > of combining different types of green and woody
              > > mulches with compost. One method I have used
              > > consists of:
              > > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
              > > - cutting the legume in spring,
              > > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
              > > - covering this by
              > > - a layer of compost
              > > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
              > > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
              > > from
              > > drying out.
              > >
              > > Dieter Brand
              > > Portugal
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
              > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
              > today's
              > > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > > removed]
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              __________________________________________________________
              > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight?
              > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
              > http://tv.yahoo.com/
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.
              > Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              >
              >




              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
              http://sims.yahoo.com/
            • Nandan Palaparambil
              Raju, Here is a report about SRI (System of Rice Intensification) method of paddy cultivation in Kerala,India.
              Message 6 of 17 , Oct 5, 2007
                Raju,

                Here is a report about SRI (System of Rice
                Intensification) method of paddy cultivation in
                Kerala,India.

                http://ciifad.cornell.edu/sri/countries/india/keralarpt.html

                Yield is 2.8 tons per acre, so if you are getting 2
                tons per acre , the yield looks to be good. Also if
                it is comparable to modern farming, it must be really
                good since cost of cultivation in NF is much less.

                SRI method does not use flooding of water which they
                say is not good for paddy. Also the spacing between
                seedlings will be more to avoid competition among the
                seedlings.

                I am finding wealth of information from this mailing
                list, and really appreciate the people around the
                world who comes with
                answers.


                Regards,
                Nandan



                --- rajutitus lal <rajuktitus@...> wrote:

                > Dear friend,
                > I met Fukuoka two times first when we are in third
                > year in 1988 he visited our farm with some N.G.O’s
                > and second time in Ghandhi ashram Verdha in 1999.
                >
                > I asked him about his Yield 22 Bushel was
                > confusing than he spoke that in Japan language he
                > tried to explained that it was near to one tone per
                > quarter acre equal to best yield getting near by
                > with scientific way of agriculture.
                >
                > My yield is just nearly half at present but
                > equally good as our nabour taking with scientific
                > method. I think that I am doing some mistake. The
                > yield is dependent on so many factors.
                > Second mulching is not extra work what crop
                > residue you are getting leave it on same place, do
                > not bring from out side or remove.
                > So many factors affecting production, roots of any
                > crop better knows where to go in seach of food and
                > water.
                > Nandan thank you very much for putting good
                > questions, we need lot of questions for
                > conversation.
                > --Raju
                >
                > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Dieter,
                >
                > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
                > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
                > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
                > crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
                > using NF in Indian condition?
                >
                > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
                > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
                > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                >
                > Regards,
                > Nandan
                >
                > > Dear all,
                > >
                > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                > > Nandan from
                > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                > > sufficient for feeding
                > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                > > doesn’t contain
                > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
                > > I think
                > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                > > of returning
                > > organic matter to the soil.
                > >
                > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
                > > devouring
                > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                > > happened on
                > > some more specific information regarding this
                > > subject. I’m
                > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
                > > is
                > > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
                > > Pommeresche
                > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                > > the bio-organic
                > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                > > importance of not
                > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                > > aerobic and
                > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
                > > upside down
                > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                > >
                > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                > > or the
                > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                > > organic “waste”
                > > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
                > > compost it.
                > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                > > mulch
                > > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
                > > which has
                > > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
                > > produced.
                > >
                > > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
                > > for
                > > winter:
                > > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
                > > (vegetable,
                > > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
                > > - sprinkle rock dust,
                > > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
                > > straw
                > > or hay.
                > > This provides food and protection for the soil
                > > during
                > > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
                > > spring,
                > > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
                > > biology
                > > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
                > > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
                > > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
                > > neighbour with conventional methods.
                > >
                > > I believe different strategies need to be used for
                > > hot
                > > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
                > > of combining different types of green and woody
                > > mulches with compost. One method I have used
                > > consists of:
                > > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
                > > - cutting the legume in spring,
                > > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
                > > - covering this by
                > > - a layer of compost
                > > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
                > > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
                > > from
                > > drying out.
                > >
                > > Dieter Brand
                > > Portugal
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
                > today's
                > > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > > removed]
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                __________________________________________________________
                > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight?
                > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
                > http://tv.yahoo.com/
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet
                > in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more.
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                > removed]
                >
                >




                ____________________________________________________________________________________
                Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase.
                http://farechase.yahoo.com/
              • Dieter Brand
                Nandan, Unfortunately, I cannot view slides because my Internet connection is too slow. I live in a remote region without phone line and without regular
                Message 7 of 17 , Oct 5, 2007
                  Nandan,

                  Unfortunately, I cannot view slides because my Internet connection
                  is too slow. I live in a remote region without phone line and without
                  regular Internet access. I'm lucky if I can receive and send text
                  messages.

                  It is of course correct that the upper soil layers where the bulk of
                  the root mass develops are the most important for feeding a plant.
                  9 inches is only a very rough figure, the actual depth will depend
                  on the type of plant and on how "deep" your soil is. Different plants
                  have very different root systems. The tap root provides support,
                  especially in the case of trees, but that doesn't mean that it can't
                  also have fine feeder roots that pull up nutrients from the subsoil.
                  The growing tips of the root (the white roots) go where they find
                  nutrients. In fact, there are plants that are especially good at
                  pulling up nutrients from the lower soil layers.

                  Another interesting question is: what do plants eat? Since Justus
                  von Liebig, agriculture believes that plant cells feed on chemical
                  substances (NPK + trace minerals) and that if a soil is fed by
                  organic materials these living organisms first have to be broken
                  down into minerals (mineralization) before plants can absorb them
                  by ion exchange through the cell wall. There is also the minority
                  view according to which plants can consume organic substances
                  directly by transport of living organisms through the cell wall
                  (endocytosis). The first view suits the agrochemical industry,
                  the second could provide a basis and theoretical framework
                  organic farming lacks at present.

                  Dieter Brand
                  Portugal

                  Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                  Dieter,

                  Please see the link
                  http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go to
                  the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
                  mentioned

                  "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
                  out only by the active white roots. These grow only in
                  the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
                  primarily provides the support for the plant".

                  Just wanted to validate this statement.

                  Regards,
                  Nandan

                  --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                  > Nandan,
                  >
                  > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
                  > farmers in
                  > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
                  > they obtain.
                  >
                  > Regarding the second part of your question. What
                  > happened
                  > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
                  > gardener I
                  > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
                  > added to the
                  > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
                  > of humus-rich
                  > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
                  > year. It will
                  > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
                  > inches
                  > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
                  > much reduced
                  > after decomposition. If you start with very
                  > depleted soil you may
                  > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
                  > by mulch
                  > as an initial soilbuilding means.
                  >
                  > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
                  > deeper than
                  > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
                  > I seem to
                  > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
                  > deep as
                  > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
                  > you are building
                  > will never become as thick as that even after 30
                  > years. But
                  > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
                  > topsoil will
                  > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
                  > roots to penetrate
                  > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
                  >
                  > Dieter Brand
                  > Portugal
                  >
                  > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Dear Dieter,
                  >
                  > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
                  > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
                  > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
                  > crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
                  > using NF in Indian condition?
                  >
                  > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
                  > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                  > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
                  > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                  > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                  >
                  > Regards,
                  > Nandan
                  >
                  > > Dear all,
                  > >
                  > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                  > > Nandan from
                  > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                  > > sufficient for feeding
                  > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                  > > doesn’t contain
                  > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
                  > > I think
                  > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                  > > of returning
                  > > organic matter to the soil.
                  > >
                  > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
                  > > devouring
                  > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                  > > happened on
                  > > some more specific information regarding this
                  > > subject. I’m
                  > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
                  > > is
                  > > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
                  > > Pommeresche
                  > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                  > > the bio-organic
                  > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                  > > importance of not
                  > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                  > > aerobic and
                  > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
                  > > upside down
                  > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                  > >
                  > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                  > > or the
                  > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                  > > organic “waste”
                  > > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
                  > > compost it.
                  > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                  > > mulch
                  > > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
                  > > which has
                  > > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
                  > > produced.
                  > >
                  > > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
                  > > for
                  > > winter:
                  > > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
                  > > (vegetable,
                  > > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
                  > > - sprinkle rock dust,
                  > > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
                  > > straw
                  > > or hay.
                  > > This provides food and protection for the soil
                  > > during
                  > > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
                  > > spring,
                  > > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
                  > > biology
                  > > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
                  > > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
                  > > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
                  > > neighbour with conventional methods.
                  > >
                  > > I believe different strategies need to be used for
                  > > hot
                  > > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
                  > > of combining different types of green and woody
                  > > mulches with compost. One method I have used
                  > > consists of:
                  > > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
                  > > - cutting the legume in spring,
                  > > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
                  > > - covering this by
                  > > - a layer of compost
                  > > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
                  > > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
                  > > from
                  > > drying out.
                  > >
                  > > Dieter Brand
                  > > Portugal
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                  > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
                  > today's
                  > > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > > removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  __________________________________________________________
                  > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight?
                  > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
                  > http://tv.yahoo.com/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.
                  > Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > removed]
                  >
                  >

                  __________________________________________________________
                  Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                  http://sims.yahoo.com/





                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tradingpost
                  True some elements are absorbed directly but the biological view today is that soil biology plays the critical mediating role in providing nutrients to plant
                  Message 8 of 17 , Oct 5, 2007
                    True some elements are absorbed directly but the biological view today is
                    that soil biology plays the critical mediating role in providing nutrients
                    to plant roots. Much has been learned; much remains a mystery. Plants do
                    take up organic substances but in nature they come from microbial
                    processes. This IS the basis for organics now. Poisons and chemical
                    fertilizers of course inhibit microbes and earthworms and are
                    counterproductive to healthy plant growth and resistance to stress and
                    pests. Understanding the critical role of soil microbes is the best
                    argument for organics. And it supports Fukuoka.

                    paul tradingpost@...

                    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                    On 10/5/2007 at 12:24 PM Dieter Brand wrote:
                    snip

                    > Another interesting question is: what do plants eat? Since Justus
                    > von Liebig, agriculture believes that plant cells feed on chemical
                    > substances (NPK + trace minerals) and that if a soil is fed by
                    > organic materials these living organisms first have to be broken
                    > down into minerals (mineralization) before plants can absorb them
                    > by ion exchange through the cell wall. There is also the minority
                    > view according to which plants can consume organic substances
                    > directly by transport of living organisms through the cell wall
                    > (endocytosis). The first view suits the agrochemical industry,
                    > the second could provide a basis and theoretical framework
                    > organic farming lacks at present.
                    >
                    > Dieter Brand
                    > Portugal
                    >
                  • Dieter Brand
                    Paul, This is new to me. I had the impression that when people in organics talk about feeding plants, they too talk mainly in terms nutrients (dead
                    Message 9 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                      Paul,

                      This is new to me. I had the impression that when people in organics
                      talk about feeding plants, they too talk mainly in terms "nutrients" (dead
                      substances like NPK), even when these nutrients derive from an organic
                      source. Hence the eternal discussions about soil tests. My impression is
                      that organics is still fettered by the bounds of the old agrochemical thinking,
                      which translates into an insecurity on the part of organic producers as
                      to the justification for organics. I think, as long as we try to justify organics
                      by using the analytical tools (soil tests, nutrient value of vegetables and
                      other chemical analysis) of the agrochemical industry, there is always
                      the risk of sliding back to the NPK-mentality. It is just so easy to open
                      that bag of fertilizers.

                      Even somebody like Ana Primavesi (who's work has been described in
                      English by Ronald Bunch) is still talking in terms of nutrients and not
                      of biological soil activity when she showed with her Nutrient Access
                      Concept (NAC) that plants can grow on a small part of the nutrients
                      usually recommended by the agrochemists in terms of the Nutrient
                      Quantity Concept (NQC).

                      I think this question is important, because if we accept that plant
                      cells feed directly on living organisms, then the true suicidal madness
                      of using toxic substances in agriculture becomes as clear as daylight
                      and there ceases to be any need for justifying organics, because doing
                      anything else would be like playing Russian roulette with the entire
                      drum full of bullets. In fact, it would mean that the effect of a
                      poisonous substance could be transmitted by a living soil organism
                      to the plant and from there to the human body even if a chemical
                      analysis shows that the toxicity of a pesticide or herbicide has gone
                      below a dangerous level.

                      Dieter Brand
                      Portugal

                      Tradingpost <tradingpost@...> wrote:

                      True some elements are absorbed directly but the biological view today is
                      that soil biology plays the critical mediating role in providing nutrients
                      to plant roots. Much has been learned; much remains a mystery. Plants do
                      take up organic substances but in nature they come from microbial
                      processes. This IS the basis for organics now. Poisons and chemical
                      fertilizers of course inhibit microbes and earthworms and are
                      counterproductive to healthy plant growth and resistance to stress and
                      pests. Understanding the critical role of soil microbes is the best
                      argument for organics. And it supports Fukuoka.

                      paul tradingpost@...

                      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                      On 10/5/2007 at 12:24 PM Dieter Brand wrote:
                      snip

                      > Another interesting question is: what do plants eat? Since Justus
                      > von Liebig, agriculture believes that plant cells feed on chemical
                      > substances (NPK + trace minerals) and that if a soil is fed by
                      > organic materials these living organisms first have to be broken
                      > down into minerals (mineralization) before plants can absorb them
                      > by ion exchange through the cell wall. There is also the minority
                      > view according to which plants can consume organic substances
                      > directly by transport of living organisms through the cell wall
                      > (endocytosis). The first view suits the agrochemical industry,
                      > the second could provide a basis and theoretical framework
                      > organic farming lacks at present.
                      >
                      > Dieter Brand
                      > Portugal
                      >






                      ---------------------------------
                      Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows.
                      Yahoo! Answers - Check it out.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Tradingpost
                      Not saying plant cells feed directly on living organisms at all. But here s the position of the Food & Agriculture Organization at the U.N. This is as strong
                      Message 10 of 17 , Oct 6, 2007
                        Not saying plant cells feed directly on living organisms at all. But here's
                        the position of the Food & Agriculture Organization at the U.N. This is as
                        strong an argument against chemicals and for organics as can be found
                        anywhere.

                        paul tradingpost@...
                        ------------------------------------------
                        from
                        http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/AD090E/AD090E00.HTM
                        that link was good as of Jul 25, 2007 but now it's in google cache

                        Organic matter, microbes, and plant health

                        "Soil organisms contribute a wide range of essential services to the
                        sustainable
                        functioning of all ecosystems. They act as the primary driving agents of:
                        nutrient cycling, regulating the dynamics of soil organic matter, soil
                        carbon
                        sequestration and greenhouse gas emissions; modifying soil physical
                        structure
                        and water regimes; enhancing the amount and efficiency of nutrient
                        acquisition
                        by the vegetation; and enhancing plant health. These services are not only
                        critical to the functioning of natural ecosystems but constitute an
                        important
                        resource for sustainable agricultural systems."

                        "Each type of soil organism occupies a different niche in the web of life
                        and
                        favours a different substrate and nutrient source. Most soil organisms rely
                        on
                        organic matter for food; thus a rich supply and varied source of organic
                        matter
                        will generally support a wider variety of organisms."

                        "Building of soil fertility is the cornerstone of organic agriculture.
                        Organic
                        practices create suitable conditions for soil biotic and abiotic resources
                        through: manipulation of crop rotations and strip-cropping; green manuring
                        and
                        organic fertilization (animal manure, compost, crop residues); minimum
                        tillage;
                        and avoidance of pesticides and herbicides use. Scientific research in
                        Europe
                        has demonstrated that organically-managed soils significantly increase
                        biological activity and total density and diversity of soil
                        micro-organisms.
                        Such biodiversity enhances nutrients recycling and soil structure."

                        from Organic Agriculture: The Challenge of Sustaining Food Production,
                        United
                        Nations Sub-Group Meeting on Wildlife, Biodiversity and Organic
                        Agriculture,
                        Ankara, Turkey, 15-16 April 2003
                        http://www.fao.org/DOCREP/005/AD090E/AD090E00.HTM


                        *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                        On 10/6/2007 at 1:37 AM Dieter Brand wrote:

                        >Paul,
                        >
                        > This is new to me. I had the impression that when people in organics
                        > talk about feeding plants, they too talk mainly in terms "nutrients"
                        >(dead
                        > substances like NPK), even when these nutrients derive from an organic
                        > source. Hence the eternal discussions about soil tests. My impression is

                        > that organics is still fettered by the bounds of the old agrochemical
                        >thinking,
                        > which translates into an insecurity on the part of organic producers as
                        > to the justification for organics. I think, as long as we try to justify
                        >organics
                        > by using the analytical tools (soil tests, nutrient value of vegetables
                        >and
                        > other chemical analysis) of the agrochemical industry, there is always
                        > the risk of sliding back to the NPK-mentality. It is just so easy to
                        >open
                        > that bag of fertilizers.
                        >
                        > Even somebody like Ana Primavesi (who's work has been described in
                        > English by Ronald Bunch) is still talking in terms of nutrients and not
                        > of biological soil activity when she showed with her Nutrient Access
                        > Concept (NAC) that plants can grow on a small part of the nutrients
                        > usually recommended by the agrochemists in terms of the Nutrient
                        > Quantity Concept (NQC).
                        >
                        > I think this question is important, because if we accept that plant
                        > cells feed directly on living organisms, then the true suicidal madness
                        > of using toxic substances in agriculture becomes as clear as daylight
                        > and there ceases to be any need for justifying organics, because doing
                        > anything else would be like playing Russian roulette with the entire
                        > drum full of bullets. In fact, it would mean that the effect of a
                        > poisonous substance could be transmitted by a living soil organism
                        > to the plant and from there to the human body even if a chemical
                        > analysis shows that the toxicity of a pesticide or herbicide has gone
                        > below a dangerous level.
                        >
                        > Dieter Brand
                        > Portugal
                        >
                      • Nandan Palaparambil
                        Dieter, Thank you so much for the excellent answers/discussions and that also you manage with slow internet connection. Regards, Nandan ... === message
                        Message 11 of 17 , Oct 8, 2007
                          Dieter,

                          Thank you so much for the excellent
                          answers/discussions and that also you manage with slow
                          internet connection.



                          Regards,
                          Nandan


                          --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                          > Nandan,
                          >
                          > Unfortunately, I cannot view slides because my
                          > Internet connection
                          > is too slow. I live in a remote region without
                          > phone line and without
                          > regular Internet access. I'm lucky if I can
                          > receive and send text
                          > messages.
                          >
                          > It is of course correct that the upper soil layers
                          > where the bulk of
                          > the root mass develops are the most important for
                          > feeding a plant.
                          > 9 inches is only a very rough figure, the actual
                          > depth will depend
                          > on the type of plant and on how "deep" your soil
                          > is. Different plants
                          > have very different root systems. The tap root
                          > provides support,
                          > especially in the case of trees, but that doesn't
                          > mean that it can't
                          > also have fine feeder roots that pull up nutrients
                          > from the subsoil.
                          > The growing tips of the root (the white roots) go
                          > where they find
                          > nutrients. In fact, there are plants that are
                          > especially good at
                          > pulling up nutrients from the lower soil layers.
                          >
                          > Another interesting question is: what do plants
                          > eat? Since Justus
                          > von Liebig, agriculture believes that plant cells
                          > feed on chemical
                          > substances (NPK + trace minerals) and that if a
                          > soil is fed by
                          > organic materials these living organisms first
                          > have to be broken
                          > down into minerals (mineralization) before plants
                          > can absorb them
                          > by ion exchange through the cell wall. There is
                          > also the minority
                          > view according to which plants can consume organic
                          > substances
                          > directly by transport of living organisms through
                          > the cell wall
                          > (endocytosis). The first view suits the
                          > agrochemical industry,
                          > the second could provide a basis and theoretical
                          > framework
                          > organic farming lacks at present.
                          >
                          > Dieter Brand
                          > Portugal
                          >
                          > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                          > Dieter,
                          >
                          > Please see the link
                          > http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go
                          > to
                          > the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
                          > mentioned
                          >
                          > "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
                          > out only by the active white roots. These grow only
                          > in
                          > the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
                          > primarily provides the support for the plant".
                          >
                          > Just wanted to validate this statement.
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          > Nandan
                          >
                          > --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > Nandan,
                          > >
                          > > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
                          > > farmers in
                          > > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
                          > > they obtain.
                          > >
                          > > Regarding the second part of your question. What
                          > > happened
                          > > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
                          > > gardener I
                          > > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
                          > > added to the
                          > > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
                          > > of humus-rich
                          > > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
                          > > year. It will
                          > > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
                          > > inches
                          > > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
                          > > much reduced
                          > > after decomposition. If you start with very
                          > > depleted soil you may
                          > > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
                          > > by mulch
                          > > as an initial soilbuilding means.
                          > >
                          > > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
                          > > deeper than
                          > > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
                          > > I seem to
                          > > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
                          > > deep as
                          > > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
                          > > you are building
                          > > will never become as thick as that even after 30
                          > > years. But
                          > > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
                          > > topsoil will
                          > > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
                          > > roots to penetrate
                          > > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
                          > >
                          > > Dieter Brand
                          > > Portugal
                          > >
                          > > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Dear Dieter,
                          > >
                          > > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels
                          > of
                          > > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg
                          > per
                          > > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching
                          > and
                          > > crop rotation. Any one has information on the
                          > yield
                          > > using NF in Indian condition?
                          > >
                          > > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots
                          > which
                          > > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                          > > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens
                          > till
                          > > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                          > > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                          > >
                          > > Regards,
                          > > Nandan
                          > >
                          > > > Dear all,
                          > > >
                          > > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                          > > > Nandan from
                          > > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                          > > > sufficient for feeding
                          > > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                          > > > doesn’t contain
                          > > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to
                          > mean.
                          > > > I think
                          > > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                          > > > of returning
                          > > > organic matter to the soil.
                          > > >
                          > > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat
                          > indoors
                          > > > devouring
                          > > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                          > > > happened on
                          > > > some more specific information regarding this
                          > > > subject. I’m
                          > > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere”
                          > which
                          > > > is
                          > > > unfortunately not available in translation.
                          > Herwig
                          > > > Pommeresche
                          > > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                          > > > the bio-organic
                          > > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                          > > > importance of not
                          > > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                          > > > aerobic and
                          > > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be
                          > turned
                          > > > upside down
                          > > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                          > > >
                          > > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                          > > > or the
                          > > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                          > > > organic “waste”
                          > > > directly to the soil surface rather than to
                          > first
                          > > > compost it.
                          > > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                          > > > mulch
                          > > > and that green grass or hay is better than
                          > straw,
                          > > > which has
                          > > > already passed some of its energy to the grain
                          > it
                          >
                          === message truncated ===




                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
                          Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
                          that gives answers, not web links.
                          http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
                        • Nandan Palaparambil
                          Dieter, Forgot to mention one item concerned to the same topic. I remember reading about, digging trenches and and filling it with organic materials like
                          Message 12 of 17 , Oct 8, 2007
                            Dieter,

                            Forgot to mention one item concerned to the same
                            topic.

                            I remember reading about, digging trenches and and
                            filling it with organic materials like logs,leafs etc
                            as part of starting a natural farm. Probably this will
                            give you a starting point where there is enough humus
                            formation to a depth needed for the plants.

                            Are you doing this, when you convert a land to natural
                            farm? Also what is the typical depth of the trenches
                            and at what distance these trenches are dug?


                            Regards,
                            Nandan


                            --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                            > Nandan,
                            >
                            > Unfortunately, I cannot view slides because my
                            > Internet connection
                            > is too slow. I live in a remote region without
                            > phone line and without
                            > regular Internet access. I'm lucky if I can
                            > receive and send text
                            > messages.
                            >
                            > It is of course correct that the upper soil layers
                            > where the bulk of
                            > the root mass develops are the most important for
                            > feeding a plant.
                            > 9 inches is only a very rough figure, the actual
                            > depth will depend
                            > on the type of plant and on how "deep" your soil
                            > is. Different plants
                            > have very different root systems. The tap root
                            > provides support,
                            > especially in the case of trees, but that doesn't
                            > mean that it can't
                            > also have fine feeder roots that pull up nutrients
                            > from the subsoil.
                            > The growing tips of the root (the white roots) go
                            > where they find
                            > nutrients. In fact, there are plants that are
                            > especially good at
                            > pulling up nutrients from the lower soil layers.
                            >
                            > Another interesting question is: what do plants
                            > eat? Since Justus
                            > von Liebig, agriculture believes that plant cells
                            > feed on chemical
                            > substances (NPK + trace minerals) and that if a
                            > soil is fed by
                            > organic materials these living organisms first
                            > have to be broken
                            > down into minerals (mineralization) before plants
                            > can absorb them
                            > by ion exchange through the cell wall. There is
                            > also the minority
                            > view according to which plants can consume organic
                            > substances
                            > directly by transport of living organisms through
                            > the cell wall
                            > (endocytosis). The first view suits the
                            > agrochemical industry,
                            > the second could provide a basis and theoretical
                            > framework
                            > organic farming lacks at present.
                            >
                            > Dieter Brand
                            > Portugal
                            >
                            > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                            > Dieter,
                            >
                            > Please see the link
                            > http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go
                            > to
                            > the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
                            > mentioned
                            >
                            > "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
                            > out only by the active white roots. These grow only
                            > in
                            > the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
                            > primarily provides the support for the plant".
                            >
                            > Just wanted to validate this statement.
                            >
                            > Regards,
                            > Nandan
                            >
                            > --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > Nandan,
                            > >
                            > > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
                            > > farmers in
                            > > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
                            > > they obtain.
                            > >
                            > > Regarding the second part of your question. What
                            > > happened
                            > > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
                            > > gardener I
                            > > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
                            > > added to the
                            > > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
                            > > of humus-rich
                            > > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
                            > > year. It will
                            > > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
                            > > inches
                            > > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
                            > > much reduced
                            > > after decomposition. If you start with very
                            > > depleted soil you may
                            > > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
                            > > by mulch
                            > > as an initial soilbuilding means.
                            > >
                            > > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
                            > > deeper than
                            > > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
                            > > I seem to
                            > > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
                            > > deep as
                            > > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
                            > > you are building
                            > > will never become as thick as that even after 30
                            > > years. But
                            > > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
                            > > topsoil will
                            > > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
                            > > roots to penetrate
                            > > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
                            > >
                            > > Dieter Brand
                            > > Portugal
                            > >
                            > > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Dear Dieter,
                            > >
                            > > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels
                            > of
                            > > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg
                            > per
                            > > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching
                            > and
                            > > crop rotation. Any one has information on the
                            > yield
                            > > using NF in Indian condition?
                            > >
                            > > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots
                            > which
                            > > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                            > > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens
                            > till
                            > > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                            > > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                            > >
                            > > Regards,
                            > > Nandan
                            > >
                            > > > Dear all,
                            > > >
                            > > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                            > > > Nandan from
                            > > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                            > > > sufficient for feeding
                            > > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                            > > > doesn’t contain
                            > > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to
                            > mean.
                            > > > I think
                            > > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                            > > > of returning
                            > > > organic matter to the soil.
                            > > >
                            > > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat
                            > indoors
                            > > > devouring
                            > > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                            > > > happened on
                            > > > some more specific information regarding this
                            > > > subject. I’m
                            > > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere”
                            > which
                            > > > is
                            > > > unfortunately not available in translation.
                            > Herwig
                            > > > Pommeresche
                            > > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                            > > > the bio-organic
                            > > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                            > > > importance of not
                            > > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                            > > > aerobic and
                            > > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be
                            > turned
                            > > > upside down
                            > > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                            > > >
                            > > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                            > > > or the
                            > > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                            > > > organic “waste”
                            > > > directly to the soil surface rather than to
                            > first
                            > > > compost it.
                            > > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                            > > > mulch
                            > > > and that green grass or hay is better than
                            > straw,
                            > > > which has
                            > > > already passed some of its energy to the grain
                            > it
                            >
                            === message truncated ===



                            ____________________________________________________________________________________
                            Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
                            http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html
                          • Dieter Brand
                            Nandan, I started burying logs in trenches two years ago after somebody mentioned this method as good way of conserving water. Fukuoka also talks about a
                            Message 13 of 17 , Oct 8, 2007
                              Nandan,

                              I started burying logs in trenches two years ago after somebody
                              mentioned this method as good way of conserving water. Fukuoka
                              also talks about a similar technique.

                              I have since stopped doing this because the results proved to be entirely
                              negative in my case. The problem is that:
                              - digging trenches involves massive earthworks, which is the very thing
                              you want to avoid when converting to no-till,
                              - however careful you try to separate topsoil from subsoil, if there is only
                              a thin layer of black soil at the top, it will invariably get lost,
                              - the capillaries, which transport humidity from the subsoil to the topsoil
                              are cut off by the logs and the layer of soil covering the logs will dry out
                              rapidly, this may not be so bad if you have plenty of rain all the time,
                              in my case it is a pure catastrophe,
                              - the logs and other organic matter buried underground under anaerobic
                              conditions (i.e., without air) cannot decompose by aerobic decomposition
                              (i.e., in the presence of air) as they normally would, in the worst case this
                              may even result in the production of harmful substances.

                              I still use logs, branches etc. for planting trees on the hills. I place the
                              logs along the contour of a hillside, plant the tree with some loose soil
                              behind the logs (if there is clay soil, I make sure it goes in at the bottom),
                              then sprinkle everything with a little black soil (mostly half decomposed
                              organic matter) from the wooded part of our land so as to introduce fungi
                              for accelerating decomposition and top the whole with a layer of leaves.

                              Dieter Brand
                              Portugal

                              Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                              Dieter,

                              Forgot to mention one item concerned to the same
                              topic.

                              I remember reading about, digging trenches and and
                              filling it with organic materials like logs,leafs etc
                              as part of starting a natural farm. Probably this will
                              give you a starting point where there is enough humus
                              formation to a depth needed for the plants.

                              Are you doing this, when you convert a land to natural
                              farm? Also what is the typical depth of the trenches
                              and at what distance these trenches are dug?

                              Regards,
                              Nandan

                              --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                              > Nandan,
                              >
                              > Unfortunately, I cannot view slides because my
                              > Internet connection
                              > is too slow. I live in a remote region without
                              > phone line and without
                              > regular Internet access. I'm lucky if I can
                              > receive and send text
                              > messages.
                              >
                              > It is of course correct that the upper soil layers
                              > where the bulk of
                              > the root mass develops are the most important for
                              > feeding a plant.
                              > 9 inches is only a very rough figure, the actual
                              > depth will depend
                              > on the type of plant and on how "deep" your soil
                              > is. Different plants
                              > have very different root systems. The tap root
                              > provides support,
                              > especially in the case of trees, but that doesn't
                              > mean that it can't
                              > also have fine feeder roots that pull up nutrients
                              > from the subsoil.
                              > The growing tips of the root (the white roots) go
                              > where they find
                              > nutrients. In fact, there are plants that are
                              > especially good at
                              > pulling up nutrients from the lower soil layers.
                              >
                              > Another interesting question is: what do plants
                              > eat? Since Justus
                              > von Liebig, agriculture believes that plant cells
                              > feed on chemical
                              > substances (NPK + trace minerals) and that if a
                              > soil is fed by
                              > organic materials these living organisms first
                              > have to be broken
                              > down into minerals (mineralization) before plants
                              > can absorb them
                              > by ion exchange through the cell wall. There is
                              > also the minority
                              > view according to which plants can consume organic
                              > substances
                              > directly by transport of living organisms through
                              > the cell wall
                              > (endocytosis). The first view suits the
                              > agrochemical industry,
                              > the second could provide a basis and theoretical
                              > framework
                              > organic farming lacks at present.
                              >
                              > Dieter Brand
                              > Portugal
                              >
                              > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                              > Dieter,
                              >
                              > Please see the link
                              > http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go
                              > to
                              > the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
                              > mentioned
                              >
                              > "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
                              > out only by the active white roots. These grow only
                              > in
                              > the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
                              > primarily provides the support for the plant".
                              >
                              > Just wanted to validate this statement.
                              >
                              > Regards,
                              > Nandan
                              >
                              > --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > > Nandan,
                              > >
                              > > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
                              > > farmers in
                              > > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
                              > > they obtain.
                              > >
                              > > Regarding the second part of your question. What
                              > > happened
                              > > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
                              > > gardener I
                              > > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
                              > > added to the
                              > > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
                              > > of humus-rich
                              > > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
                              > > year. It will
                              > > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
                              > > inches
                              > > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
                              > > much reduced
                              > > after decomposition. If you start with very
                              > > depleted soil you may
                              > > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
                              > > by mulch
                              > > as an initial soilbuilding means.
                              > >
                              > > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
                              > > deeper than
                              > > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
                              > > I seem to
                              > > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
                              > > deep as
                              > > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
                              > > you are building
                              > > will never become as thick as that even after 30
                              > > years. But
                              > > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
                              > > topsoil will
                              > > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
                              > > roots to penetrate
                              > > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
                              > >
                              > > Dieter Brand
                              > > Portugal
                              > >
                              > > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Dear Dieter,
                              > >
                              > > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels
                              > of
                              > > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg
                              > per
                              > > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching
                              > and
                              > > crop rotation. Any one has information on the
                              > yield
                              > > using NF in Indian condition?
                              > >
                              > > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots
                              > which
                              > > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                              > > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens
                              > till
                              > > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                              > > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                              > >
                              > > Regards,
                              > > Nandan
                              > >
                              > > > Dear all,
                              > > >
                              > > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                              > > > Nandan from
                              > > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                              > > > sufficient for feeding
                              > > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                              > > > doesn’t contain
                              > > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to
                              > mean.
                              > > > I think
                              > > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                              > > > of returning
                              > > > organic matter to the soil.
                              > > >
                              > > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat
                              > indoors
                              > > > devouring
                              > > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                              > > > happened on
                              > > > some more specific information regarding this
                              > > > subject. I’m
                              > > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere”
                              > which
                              > > > is
                              > > > unfortunately not available in translation.
                              > Herwig
                              > > > Pommeresche
                              > > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                              > > > the bio-organic
                              > > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                              > > > importance of not
                              > > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                              > > > aerobic and
                              > > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be
                              > turned
                              > > > upside down
                              > > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                              > > >
                              > > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                              > > > or the
                              > > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                              > > > organic “waste”
                              > > > directly to the soil surface rather than to
                              > first
                              > > > compost it.
                              > > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                              > > > mulch
                              > > > and that green grass or hay is better than
                              > straw,
                              > > > which has
                              > > > already passed some of its energy to the grain
                              > it
                              >
                              === message truncated ===

                              __________________________________________________________
                              Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos.
                              http://autos.yahoo.com/index.html







                              ---------------------------------
                              Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Arjun Rajgopal
                              Dear Nandan, If you happen to read Plenty for all, by Shri Dabholkar, esp Chap 5 & 6, the explanation of white roots are given in detail. Best, Arjun Nandan
                              Message 14 of 17 , Oct 9, 2007
                                Dear Nandan,

                                If you happen to read Plenty for all, by Shri Dabholkar, esp Chap 5 & 6, the explanation of white roots are given in detail.
                                Best,

                                Arjun

                                Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                                Dieter,

                                Please see the link
                                http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go to
                                the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
                                mentioned

                                "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
                                out only by the active white roots. These grow only in
                                the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
                                primarily provides the support for the plant".

                                Just wanted to validate this statement.

                                Regards,
                                Nandan

                                --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:

                                > Nandan,
                                >
                                > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
                                > farmers in
                                > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
                                > they obtain.
                                >
                                > Regarding the second part of your question. What
                                > happened
                                > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
                                > gardener I
                                > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
                                > added to the
                                > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
                                > of humus-rich
                                > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
                                > year. It will
                                > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
                                > inches
                                > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
                                > much reduced
                                > after decomposition. If you start with very
                                > depleted soil you may
                                > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
                                > by mulch
                                > as an initial soilbuilding means.
                                >
                                > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
                                > deeper than
                                > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
                                > I seem to
                                > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
                                > deep as
                                > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
                                > you are building
                                > will never become as thick as that even after 30
                                > years. But
                                > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
                                > topsoil will
                                > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
                                > roots to penetrate
                                > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
                                >
                                > Dieter Brand
                                > Portugal
                                >
                                > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Dear Dieter,
                                >
                                > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels of
                                > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg per
                                > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching and
                                > crop rotation. Any one has information on the yield
                                > using NF in Indian condition?
                                >
                                > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots which
                                > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                                > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens till
                                > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                                > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Nandan
                                >
                                > > Dear all,
                                > >
                                > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                                > > Nandan from
                                > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                                > > sufficient for feeding
                                > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                                > > doesn’t contain
                                > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to mean.
                                > > I think
                                > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                                > > of returning
                                > > organic matter to the soil.
                                > >
                                > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat indoors
                                > > devouring
                                > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                                > > happened on
                                > > some more specific information regarding this
                                > > subject. I’m
                                > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere” which
                                > > is
                                > > unfortunately not available in translation. Herwig
                                > > Pommeresche
                                > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                                > > the bio-organic
                                > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                                > > importance of not
                                > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                                > > aerobic and
                                > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be turned
                                > > upside down
                                > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                                > >
                                > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                                > > or the
                                > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                                > > organic “waste”
                                > > directly to the soil surface rather than to first
                                > > compost it.
                                > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                                > > mulch
                                > > and that green grass or hay is better than straw,
                                > > which has
                                > > already passed some of its energy to the grain it
                                > > produced.
                                > >
                                > > He describes how he prepares his garden in Norway
                                > > for
                                > > winter:
                                > > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
                                > > (vegetable,
                                > > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
                                > > - sprinkle rock dust,
                                > > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips, leaves,
                                > > straw
                                > > or hay.
                                > > This provides food and protection for the soil
                                > > during
                                > > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
                                > > spring,
                                > > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
                                > > biology
                                > > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
                                > > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with this
                                > > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
                                > > neighbour with conventional methods.
                                > >
                                > > I believe different strategies need to be used for
                                > > hot
                                > > and dry climates. I have long wondered about ways
                                > > of combining different types of green and woody
                                > > mulches with compost. One method I have used
                                > > consists of:
                                > > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
                                > > - cutting the legume in spring,
                                > > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
                                > > - covering this by
                                > > - a layer of compost
                                > > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
                                > > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
                                > > from
                                > > drying out.
                                > >
                                > > Dieter Brand
                                > > Portugal
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ---------------------------------
                                > > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
                                > > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for
                                > today's
                                > > economy) at Yahoo! Games.
                                > >
                                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > > removed]
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                __________________________________________________________
                                > Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight?
                                > Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
                                > http://tv.yahoo.com/
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ---------------------------------
                                > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect.
                                > Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                > removed]
                                >
                                >

                                __________________________________________________________
                                Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games.
                                http://sims.yahoo.com/




                                Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Forest Shomer
                                Hello Dieter, Thanks for the very interesting observations about using logs and woody debris. I also observe that Nature will use deadfall or windfall trees to
                                Message 15 of 17 , Oct 9, 2007
                                  Hello Dieter,

                                  Thanks for the very interesting observations about using logs and
                                  woody debris. I also observe that Nature will use deadfall or
                                  windfall trees to stabilize slopes by laying them down the
                                  slope--that is, the fallen treetop points directly down the slope,
                                  while humans lay the tree trunks contoured, crosswise to the
                                  slope--because terraces are easier to walk and work on than unbroken
                                  slopes. I would make a distinction between logs, which have no
                                  remaining limbs, and fallen trees, which do. It makes sense to use
                                  logs on the contour because they are limbless.

                                  In this region, we have major windstorms every few years that blow
                                  down many trees. Typically, the falling tree goes with gravity, and
                                  winds up with its crown pointing down-slope. the horizontal branches
                                  then become small contours and check-dams to catch leaves, debris,
                                  and slow the runoff. In most cases, revegetation takes place very
                                  quickly within one to two years.

                                  Evidently both vertical and horizontal placement of woody stems on
                                  sloping land have their benefits, according to the situation. Best,

                                  Forest


                                  At 10:15 AM +0000 10/9/07, fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                                  >I still use logs, branches etc. for planting trees on the hills. I place the
                                  >logs along the contour of a hillside, plant the tree with some loose soil
                                  >behind the logs (if there is clay soil, I make sure it goes in at the bottom),
                                  >then sprinkle everything with a little black soil (mostly half decomposed
                                  >organic matter) from the wooded part of our land so as to introduce fungi
                                  >for accelerating decomposition and top the whole with a layer of leaves.
                                  >
                                  >Dieter Brand
                                  >Portugal

                                  --
                                • Nandan Palaparambil
                                  Dear Arjun, Thanks for this information. I have a copy of the plenty for all and have read it some time back. It looks like, have to read it once again !!!.
                                  Message 16 of 17 , Oct 11, 2007
                                    Dear Arjun,

                                    Thanks for this information.

                                    I have a copy of the "plenty for all" and have read it
                                    some time back. It looks like, have to read it once
                                    again !!!.




                                    Regards,
                                    Nandan


                                    --- Arjun Rajgopal <parshini.kadavu@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > Dear Nandan,
                                    >
                                    > If you happen to read Plenty for all, by Shri
                                    > Dabholkar, esp Chap 5 & 6, the explanation of white
                                    > roots are given in detail.
                                    > Best,
                                    >
                                    > Arjun
                                    >
                                    > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...> wrote:
                                    > Dieter,
                                    >
                                    > Please see the link
                                    > http://www.prayogpariwar.net/pubs_middle.htm and go
                                    > to
                                    > the slide show and slide number 45. Here it is
                                    > mentioned
                                    >
                                    > "In a plant, the absorption of nutrients is carried
                                    > out only by the active white roots. These grow only
                                    > in
                                    > the top nine inches. The rest of the root structure
                                    > primarily provides the support for the plant".
                                    >
                                    > Just wanted to validate this statement.
                                    >
                                    > Regards,
                                    > Nandan
                                    >
                                    > --- Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > Nandan,
                                    > >
                                    > > I have no idea whether there are any commercial
                                    > > farmers in
                                    > > India using NF techniques and what kind of yield
                                    > > they obtain.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regarding the second part of your question. What
                                    > > happened
                                    > > in Fukuoka's case or in the case of the Norwegian
                                    > > gardener I
                                    > > quoted is that a new layer of organic matter was
                                    > > added to the
                                    > > soil surface every year, which adds up to a layer
                                    > > of humus-rich
                                    > > dark soil that becomes thicker and richer every
                                    > > year. It will
                                    > > take several years to obtain a layer of one or two
                                    > > inches
                                    > > because the volume of the mulch you apply will be
                                    > > much reduced
                                    > > after decomposition. If you start with very
                                    > > depleted soil you may
                                    > > want to apply one or two inches of compost covered
                                    > > by mulch
                                    > > as an initial soilbuilding means.
                                    > >
                                    > > Roots, even those of annuals, go of course much
                                    > > deeper than
                                    > > that. I don't have any exact figures at hand, but
                                    > > I seem to
                                    > > remember that the roots of some annuals can go as
                                    > > deep as
                                    > > 6 feet or more. The layer of humus-rich dark soil
                                    > > you are building
                                    > > will never become as thick as that even after 30
                                    > > years. But
                                    > > that doesn't matter, because the newly created
                                    > > topsoil will
                                    > > protect and enrich the soil beneath and enable
                                    > > roots to penetrate
                                    > > deep into the subsoil to scavenge for minerals.
                                    > >
                                    > > Dieter Brand
                                    > > Portugal
                                    > >
                                    > > Nandan Palaparambil <p_k_nandanan@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Dear Dieter,
                                    > >
                                    > > Fukuoka-san used to get 22 bushels to 29 bushels
                                    > of
                                    > > paddy from 0.25 acres which is 1760Kg to 2320Kg
                                    > per
                                    > > acre. This is achieved just using straw mulching
                                    > and
                                    > > crop rotation. Any one has information on the
                                    > yield
                                    > > using NF in Indian condition?
                                    > >
                                    > > I read in www.prayogpariwar.net that the roots
                                    > which
                                    > > looks for nutrition elements go upto 9 inches of
                                    > > soil. That indicates till the mulching happens
                                    > till
                                    > > this level we won't get the maximum productivity.
                                    > > Would like to know your valuable inputs on this.
                                    > >
                                    > > Regards,
                                    > > Nandan
                                    > >
                                    > > > Dear all,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > A little while ago somebody, I believe it was
                                    > > > Nandan from
                                    > > > India, asked about straw and whether it is
                                    > > > sufficient for feeding
                                    > > > the soil; some farmers had told him that straw
                                    > > > doesn’t contain
                                    > > > any nutrients, whatever that is supposed to
                                    > mean.
                                    > > > I think
                                    > > > I answered in a general way about the importance
                                    > > > of returning
                                    > > > organic matter to the soil.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Today - it was raining in Portugal - I sat
                                    > indoors
                                    > > > devouring
                                    > > > some of the treasures on my bookshelf, when I
                                    > > > happened on
                                    > > > some more specific information regarding this
                                    > > > subject. I’m
                                    > > > reading Herwig Pommeresche’s “Humussphaere”
                                    > which
                                    > > > is
                                    > > > unfortunately not available in translation.
                                    > Herwig
                                    > > > Pommeresche
                                    > > > is in the tradition of H.P. Rusch, cofounder of
                                    > > > the bio-organic
                                    > > > school which, like Fukuoka, stresses the
                                    > > > importance of not
                                    > > > disturbing the soil. Rusch considers that the
                                    > > > aerobic and
                                    > > > anaerobic layers of the soil should not be
                                    > turned
                                    > > > upside down
                                    > > > as happens when a field is ploughed.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Herwig Pommeresche claims that to feed the soil,
                                    > > > or the
                                    > > > edaphon part of it, it is better to return all
                                    > > > organic “waste”
                                    > > > directly to the soil surface rather than to
                                    > first
                                    > > > compost it.
                                    > > > He also states that straw is better than woody
                                    > > > mulch
                                    > > > and that green grass or hay is better than
                                    > straw,
                                    > > > which has
                                    > > > already passed some of its energy to the grain
                                    > it
                                    > > > produced.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > He describes how he prepares his garden in
                                    > Norway
                                    > > > for
                                    > > > winter:
                                    > > > - spread 20 litres of fresh organic matter
                                    > > > (vegetable,
                                    > > > fruit cuttings etc.) per 1 square meter,
                                    > > > - sprinkle rock dust,
                                    > > > - cover with 1 to 2 inches of wood chips,
                                    > leaves,
                                    > > > straw
                                    > > > or hay.
                                    > > > This provides food and protection for the soil
                                    > > > during
                                    > > > the winter months. When the snow melts in the
                                    > > > spring,
                                    > > > the garden is ready for planting and the soil
                                    > > > biology
                                    > > > kicks into action with vigour. He claims that he
                                    >
                                    > > > obtains 18 kg of onions per square meter with
                                    > this
                                    > > > method, which compares to 1,5 kg obtained by his
                                    > > > neighbour with conventional methods.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I believe different strategies need to be used
                                    > for
                                    > > > hot
                                    > > > and dry climates. I have long wondered about
                                    > ways
                                    > > > of combining different types of green and woody
                                    > > > mulches with compost. One method I have used
                                    > > > consists of:
                                    > > > - sowing a legume (clover etc.) in fall,
                                    > > > - cutting the legume in spring,
                                    > > > - broadcasting a mixture of seeds,
                                    > > > - covering this by
                                    > > > - a layer of compost
                                    > > > - a layer of green mulch and, in the end,
                                    > > > - a layer of woody mulch to protect the whole
                                    > > > from
                                    > > > drying out.
                                    >
                                    === message truncated ===



                                    ____________________________________________________________________________________
                                    Tonight's top picks. What will you watch tonight? Preview the hottest shows on Yahoo! TV.
                                    http://tv.yahoo.com/
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.