Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

RE: [fukuoka_farming] something practical

Expand Messages
  • Dieter Brand
    It is quite enough to know the god inside yourself. If you do, there is no need to make a display of it, unless that is, you want to go preaching at others.
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 15, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      It is quite enough to know the god inside yourself. If you do, there is no need
      to make a display of it, unless that is, you want to go preaching at others.
      As to my carrots and cabbages, they don't care what you preach.

      Dieter

      Sergio Montinola <sjmosprey2001@...> wrote:
      This message contains one and only one thing. GOD is the creator of all things, man and the universe. All messages mean nothing if GOD is second or nothing ?

      Unless man realizes this, there is no message worth considering.

      Serge

      Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
      Now this is "something practical". Why can't you people use subject lines
      that are indicative of the message contents?

      Dieter

      Shawn Turner <shawndturner@...> wrote:
      All things have consciousness, everything in this reality does even a rock! Even though a rock has a lower conscious, it is often more aware of the present or being, than higher consciousness with humans.

      We were made whole in the beginning! All that is, is whole. No perfection needs to be done only recognition of that perfection.

      So if you need to speak to your plants then do so. Once you come to the reality that you only need to speak to yourself(Inner Self). Then, all will hear you.
      Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote: I believe GOD is in all of us and everything she/he created - therefore I am
      talking to God when I talk to the plants, or animals, or anything else!

      Linda

      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Montinola
      Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2007 4:21 PM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] something practical

      Believing in GOD, the almighty is worth more than talking to plants He
      created for man.

      Hope this answers your thoughts.and pass it on to all Fukuoka fans. Even
      Fukuoka believes in GOD.

      Sergio J. Montinola

      Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au>
      > wrote:
      Wow - it's fantastic to hear the wood layering works as I have only just
      done the same thing.

      When we moved into this property there were two old plum trees that had had
      such bad pruning work done on them that they were not really saveable. this
      year I finally cut them down and layered the prunings all over my back yard.
      Come spring I plan to scatter seeds with abandon.

      Sometimes it does feels we are too controlling, but them sometimes we come
      into an environment that simply does not work - so we do have to take
      action. But by doing so you have unleased a new wave of life and the beauty
      and energy from that new life is breathtaking. I feel we should talk to the
      land and plants about what we plan to do and why. If we get feedback - or
      continue to feel that our course is correct then thank the trees we are
      sacrificing for their part of the development of the property and continue
      with our plans.

      It might be very 'out there' talking to plants, but I believe they have a
      soul just like all living things. For anyone who doesn't believe it - read
      The Secret Life of Plants by Christopher Bird

      Linda

      From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of witchessocks
      Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2007 2:24 AM
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      Subject: [fukuoka_farming] something practical

      sorry, i have to give you the background first.

      my husband and i built our house on the upper end of a gradual slope,
      on a 3/4 acre piece of land; behind our house is a border of native
      trees and brush which i let grow thick to form a hedge area between
      our land and the property behind us. a developer had cleared that land
      to build housing for renters.

      well, for years i let this area grow without giving it any thought at
      all; i made textile crafts and raised two children, had a traditional
      tilled garden and only devoted myself to that.

      then i read masanobu fukuoka's "one straw revolution", which triggered
      my own series of epiphanies...i looked around at our land and became
      more aware of what exactly was growing there: tall pines, cedar,
      locust, wild cherry,a huge wild grapevine that climbed over
      everything, shrub roses, poke, a small black raspberry patch,
      goldenrod, privet, rose of sharon, a bit of knot-weed, and some other
      natives and exotics that i'm still not sure of the names of. i have
      always been pretty much purist (sigh) so i wouldn't let my husband cut
      anything over there.

      but now, i realized with horror what else i had let grow-
      ailanthus...that exotic from china...had infested it all, blocking
      the light, killing the natives, souring the ground, and dominating
      everything.. and now it was threatening our house. i didn't even
      notice them until this point, when i realized i had over 20 huge trees
      hanging over our house, spreading and growing very very rapidly...

      http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/aial1.htm

      we then took action...we cut as many as we could ourselves, then found
      a reasonable local tree-cutter to take down the giants. it still cost
      us over a thousand dollars to get this done. we drilled holes in the
      stumps and hoped for the best.

      well, when you cut ailanthia suckers begin to sprout from every root,
      of which there were plenty. and also, we couldn't get them all because
      some of them were over the property line and the owners wouldn't cut
      them down. i didn't want to make a fuss with the owners because i was
      afraid that if they were harrassed to get rid of theirs, they would
      use poison, and i didn't want that. so we are stuck with seeds wafting
      over the line and hundreds of seedlings coming up every day along with
      the dozens of suckers coming up every single day.

      ok, fukuoka-san had said, never carry away any of the trees you cut
      down, you arrange them at the site as best you can. so- from
      observation i had noticed that, however many complaints we had about
      ailanthus we had to admit that the tree enriched and built up the soil
      very well, the wood being soft, light and porous. i decided to take my
      big and small hand cutters and cut off the smaller branches and leaves
      into very short pieces, around 6 to 10 inches or so, and this sounds
      crazy, to layer the entire ground area with these (the ground was
      completely trampled by this time from cutting down the trees, so you
      could say it was pretty much bare of vegetation). my husband used his
      little chain saw to cut the trunks into logs which we then lined up
      along the property line. i didn't want a fence because i needed to be
      able to get to the seedlings and suckers on the other side so as to
      prevent them from "jumping the line" over onto our side. then we piled
      up the bigger branches and smaller trunks, which we left long into
      what we call "wildlife hideaways"; cover and nesting for small animals.

      we let this all mellow for a year. i threw seeds into it. mustards,
      radishes and turnips grew, along with onions and amaranths. clovers,
      alfalfa , vetch, wild strawberry, violet ,rye, and other grasses grew
      up through the crisscrossed mat of sticks, began to fill in and spread
      out.

      i am practicing what fukuoka-san calls "weed utility". the cut wood
      pieces take out nitrogen from the soil, so- i let the ailanthia
      seedlings and suckers grow for about a week, then pluck these and
      layer them onto the wood pieces where they dry out and where there is
      no vegetation. this sounds weird, but it actually works. the green
      material rots down into the wood layer and keeps moisture, helping
      the wood to rot. the green stuff rots quickly and the wood slowly, so
      you have to redo the top layer more often. but the ground cover that
      grows up through this is short, thick, healthy and sweet. i guess
      these plants would still grow if i hadn't put the layer of wood
      pieces, but then i wouldn't have had the wood layer there to rot,
      mulch and build soil. the wood seems to have a sort of sterilizing
      effect which gave things a new start.

      the raspberry, wineberry and blackberry began growing like crazy !
      they love it. the poke, which the birds plant, love it and form
      groups, then when they and the other herbs grow tall, they become
      nurse-plants to native tree seedlings, which are coming up like mad.2
      types of oak, redbud, honey locust, black walnut, persimmon, basswood,
      a type of laurel, mimosa, sassafras- i dug one hole and planted a
      magnolia, which is my most beautiful tree. the wild cherry grows too
      big and tall for the space, and it's kind of invasive, it's limbs
      curving around the other trees to get the most light, so i cut them
      down too and when the suckers grew back from the root i kept the tips
      cut so that it stays bushy. the deer like to munch the tips too. i
      don't know how that will work out, but i'm watching. i left one wild
      cherry to grow as it pleased. the birds love the berries.

      i just wanted to show that i know my tendency to be too fundamentalist
      when it comes to nature...i need to work on my balance. integrating
      humans with nature is important; and as farmers, we can't just let
      one species dominate the others; fukuoka said somewhere that it's not
      wise to kill a species but that it is acceptable to cut back and
      control them if they become too vigorous to the detriment of others.
      with that i'll end this. cheers- robin, aka witchessocks

      A hearty laugh gives one a dry cleaning, while a good cry is a wet wash.

      -- Puzant Kevork Thomajan

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      ---------------------------------
      TV dinner still cooling?
      Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      ---------------------------------
      Got a little couch potato?
      Check out fun summer activities for kids.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      ---------------------------------
      No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
      with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      ---------------------------------
      Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






      ---------------------------------
      Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • witchessocks
      i went to andy s site and it IS nice. i especially enjoyed reading this page... be sure and click on the image... boy, i am looking forward to that happening
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 15, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        i went to andy's site and it IS nice. i especially enjoyed reading
        this page... be sure and click on the image... boy, i am looking
        forward to that happening on my land... just gorgeous!

        http://www.konsk.co.uk/design/regen.htm

        i'm glad they include deer because i couldn't keep them out on my
        land...not that i'd want to. i don't like wire fences... i cut mine
        into rectangles and squares of various sizes when i took it down; i
        fold these squares over double to form small or larger a-frames which
        i then set over my
        vegetables (like tomatoes, spinach, etc.) individually, so that the
        deer do not get them. that way, vegetables do not have to be put in a
        certain place, they could come up anywhere (like volunteers). and you
        can protect that
        individual plant from the deer. i don't stake my tomatoes, i let them
        crawl along the ground, and the plant balances itself in its own way.
        when there
        is clover and other soft short weeds around the tomato plant it will
        lean on these and spread out as it grows. i still don't like to see
        little or big wire a-frames here and there, but otherwise the deer will
        surely
        eat all my vegetables...and after the harvest you can just pick them
        up, stomp them flat, and store them away easily....you can't do that
        with a
        fence.

        anybody else have any ideas that are more or less practical like that?

        that you have thought up while you were out doing without doing. if
        you are like me, untrained, and in a way untrainable, sceptical,
        uncertain of yourself,
        wandering around the garden or
        farm area and looking for things to do then ways to not do that same
        something or not do part of it as per fukuoka-san instructions; or
        looking for ways to eliminate
        man-made 'somethings' (like fences), it's a gift to hit on the perfect
        compromise for that time and space. the 'wire fence into double folded
        square or rectangle a-frames" solution is a win-win situation for both
        me and the deer. they can nibble clover and alfalfa and i get my
        veggies for me. i may stumble upon a better plan but this one does
        work for the frame of mind i'm in right now. i guess if
        you had to have a Whole lot of vegetables to protect instead of just a
        few, it wouldn't work so well. when deer eat my little bit of stuff i
        grow for myself it makes me real real sad, and now i'm happier.

        thank you, andy langford, for your site...sorry i teased you about
        your "titles"...i'm just a poor common slob who has become used to
        burning my bridges too often. argel is indeed beautiful and natural
        and i learned
        alot from reading your wilderness regeneration and harvesting article.

        robin, aka witchessocks
      • Sergio Montinola
        Dear Dieter, My reply/ It is quite enough to know the god inside yourself. If you do, there is no need to make a display of it, unless that is, you want to go
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 17, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Dieter,

          My reply/

          It is quite enough to know the god inside yourself. If you do, there is no need to make a display of it, unless that is, you want to go preaching at others.

          Yes, God wants us to preach all the time. That is why we have a Pope and a church to help and guide us.


          As to my carrots and cabbages, they don't care what you preach.

          You will be surprised and amazed Fukuoda believed in a God whose plants reject human interferance but only GodÂ’s help thru His creation of nature and the universe.

          Serge







          Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
          It is quite enough to know the god inside yourself. If you do, there is no need
          to make a display of it, unless that is, you want to go preaching at others.
          As to my carrots and cabbages, they don't care what you preach.

          Dieter

          Sergio Montinola <sjmosprey2001@...> wrote:
          This message contains one and only one thing. GOD is the creator of all things, man and the universe. All messages mean nothing if GOD is second or nothing ?

          Unless man realizes this, there is no message worth considering.

          Serge

          Dieter Brand <diebrand@...> wrote:
          Now this is "something practical". Why can't you people use subject lines
          that are indicative of the message contents?

          Dieter

          Shawn Turner <shawndturner@...> wrote:
          All things have consciousness, everything in this reality does even a rock! Even though a rock has a lower conscious, it is often more aware of the present or being, than higher consciousness with humans.

          We were made whole in the beginning! All that is, is whole. No perfection needs to be done only recognition of that perfection.

          So if you need to speak to your plants then do so. Once you come to the reality that you only need to speak to yourself(Inner Self). Then, all will hear you.
          Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...> wrote: I believe GOD is in all of us and everything she/he created - therefore I am
          talking to God when I talk to the plants, or animals, or anything else!

          Linda

          From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Montinola
          Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2007 4:21 PM
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [fukuoka_farming] something practical

          Believing in GOD, the almighty is worth more than talking to plants He
          created for man.

          Hope this answers your thoughts.and pass it on to all Fukuoka fans. Even
          Fukuoka believes in GOD.

          Sergio J. Montinola

          Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@... <mailto:linda_shewan%40yahoo.com.au>
          > wrote:
          Wow - it's fantastic to hear the wood layering works as I have only just
          done the same thing.

          When we moved into this property there were two old plum trees that had had
          such bad pruning work done on them that they were not really saveable. this
          year I finally cut them down and layered the prunings all over my back yard.
          Come spring I plan to scatter seeds with abandon.

          Sometimes it does feels we are too controlling, but them sometimes we come
          into an environment that simply does not work - so we do have to take
          action. But by doing so you have unleased a new wave of life and the beauty
          and energy from that new life is breathtaking. I feel we should talk to the
          land and plants about what we plan to do and why. If we get feedback - or
          continue to feel that our course is correct then thank the trees we are
          sacrificing for their part of the development of the property and continue
          with our plans.

          It might be very 'out there' talking to plants, but I believe they have a
          soul just like all living things. For anyone who doesn't believe it - read
          The Secret Life of Plants by Christopher Bird

          Linda

          From: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
          [mailto:fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of witchessocks
          Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2007 2:24 AM
          To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
          Subject: [fukuoka_farming] something practical

          sorry, i have to give you the background first.

          my husband and i built our house on the upper end of a gradual slope,
          on a 3/4 acre piece of land; behind our house is a border of native
          trees and brush which i let grow thick to form a hedge area between
          our land and the property behind us. a developer had cleared that land
          to build housing for renters.

          well, for years i let this area grow without giving it any thought at
          all; i made textile crafts and raised two children, had a traditional
          tilled garden and only devoted myself to that.

          then i read masanobu fukuoka's "one straw revolution", which triggered
          my own series of epiphanies...i looked around at our land and became
          more aware of what exactly was growing there: tall pines, cedar,
          locust, wild cherry,a huge wild grapevine that climbed over
          everything, shrub roses, poke, a small black raspberry patch,
          goldenrod, privet, rose of sharon, a bit of knot-weed, and some other
          natives and exotics that i'm still not sure of the names of. i have
          always been pretty much purist (sigh) so i wouldn't let my husband cut
          anything over there.

          but now, i realized with horror what else i had let grow-
          ailanthus...that exotic from china...had infested it all, blocking
          the light, killing the natives, souring the ground, and dominating
          everything.. and now it was threatening our house. i didn't even
          notice them until this point, when i realized i had over 20 huge trees
          hanging over our house, spreading and growing very very rapidly...

          http://www.nps.gov/plants/alien/fact/aial1.htm

          we then took action...we cut as many as we could ourselves, then found
          a reasonable local tree-cutter to take down the giants. it still cost
          us over a thousand dollars to get this done. we drilled holes in the
          stumps and hoped for the best.

          well, when you cut ailanthia suckers begin to sprout from every root,
          of which there were plenty. and also, we couldn't get them all because
          some of them were over the property line and the owners wouldn't cut
          them down. i didn't want to make a fuss with the owners because i was
          afraid that if they were harrassed to get rid of theirs, they would
          use poison, and i didn't want that. so we are stuck with seeds wafting
          over the line and hundreds of seedlings coming up every day along with
          the dozens of suckers coming up every single day.

          ok, fukuoka-san had said, never carry away any of the trees you cut
          down, you arrange them at the site as best you can. so- from
          observation i had noticed that, however many complaints we had about
          ailanthus we had to admit that the tree enriched and built up the soil
          very well, the wood being soft, light and porous. i decided to take my
          big and small hand cutters and cut off the smaller branches and leaves
          into very short pieces, around 6 to 10 inches or so, and this sounds
          crazy, to layer the entire ground area with these (the ground was
          completely trampled by this time from cutting down the trees, so you
          could say it was pretty much bare of vegetation). my husband used his
          little chain saw to cut the trunks into logs which we then lined up
          along the property line. i didn't want a fence because i needed to be
          able to get to the seedlings and suckers on the other side so as to
          prevent them from "jumping the line" over onto our side. then we piled
          up the bigger branches and smaller trunks, which we left long into
          what we call "wildlife hideaways"; cover and nesting for small animals.

          we let this all mellow for a year. i threw seeds into it. mustards,
          radishes and turnips grew, along with onions and amaranths. clovers,
          alfalfa , vetch, wild strawberry, violet ,rye, and other grasses grew
          up through the crisscrossed mat of sticks, began to fill in and spread
          out.

          i am practicing what fukuoka-san calls "weed utility". the cut wood
          pieces take out nitrogen from the soil, so- i let the ailanthia
          seedlings and suckers grow for about a week, then pluck these and
          layer them onto the wood pieces where they dry out and where there is
          no vegetation. this sounds weird, but it actually works. the green
          material rots down into the wood layer and keeps moisture, helping
          the wood to rot. the green stuff rots quickly and the wood slowly, so
          you have to redo the top layer more often. but the ground cover that
          grows up through this is short, thick, healthy and sweet. i guess
          these plants would still grow if i hadn't put the layer of wood
          pieces, but then i wouldn't have had the wood layer there to rot,
          mulch and build soil. the wood seems to have a sort of sterilizing
          effect which gave things a new start.

          the raspberry, wineberry and blackberry began growing like crazy !
          they love it. the poke, which the birds plant, love it and form
          groups, then when they and the other herbs grow tall, they become
          nurse-plants to native tree seedlings, which are coming up like mad.2
          types of oak, redbud, honey locust, black walnut, persimmon, basswood,
          a type of laurel, mimosa, sassafras- i dug one hole and planted a
          magnolia, which is my most beautiful tree. the wild cherry grows too
          big and tall for the space, and it's kind of invasive, it's limbs
          curving around the other trees to get the most light, so i cut them
          down too and when the suckers grew back from the root i kept the tips
          cut so that it stays bushy. the deer like to munch the tips too. i
          don't know how that will work out, but i'm watching. i left one wild
          cherry to grow as it pleased. the birds love the berries.

          i just wanted to show that i know my tendency to be too fundamentalist
          when it comes to nature...i need to work on my balance. integrating
          humans with nature is important; and as farmers, we can't just let
          one species dominate the others; fukuoka said somewhere that it's not
          wise to kill a species but that it is acceptable to cut back and
          control them if they become too vigorous to the detriment of others.
          with that i'll end this. cheers- robin, aka witchessocks

          A hearty laugh gives one a dry cleaning, while a good cry is a wet wash.

          -- Puzant Kevork Thomajan

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          TV dinner still cooling?
          Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          Got a little couch potato?
          Check out fun summer activities for kids.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          No need to miss a message. Get email on-the-go
          with Yahoo! Mail for Mobile. Get started.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car Finder tool.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          ---------------------------------
          Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          ---------------------------------
          Got a little couch potato?
          Check out fun summer activities for kids.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Dieter Brand
          Sergio, I don t mind preachers as long as they respect the believes and preferences of other people. With my initial post in this thread I merely tried to
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 17, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Sergio,

            I don't mind preachers as long as they respect the believes and
            preferences of other people.

            With my initial post in this thread I merely tried to point out that
            discussion in this farming group had been completely hijacked
            by the religiously minded to the detriment of any practical
            discussion regarding farming. If even a thread entitled "something
            practical" is turned into a religious debate after only two
            messages then its good by to carrots and cabbages.

            It seems that most members that gave substance to the discussion
            regarding the practical issues involved in adapting natural farming
            to different climatic conditions have long gone to other places.
            Perhaps this is just as well, even though I would regret it if this
            were to spell an end to all attempts at implementing natural
            farming, which like all farming is an eminently practical business.

            I do know the Philippines and love the country and its people. In
            fact I was in Manila during the Pope's visit there and know something
            about the role of the catholic church in the country. I almost
            ended up in a farming venture on one of the islands, but property
            rights for foreigners are a little tricky. That is why we finally settled
            in Portugal, also a very catholic country (just like Poland, also starts
            with a P, only joking).

            Dieter Band
            Portual


            ---------------------------------
            Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.