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Re: growing into NF

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  • witchessocks
    interesting analysis about whether it is possible to use permaculture as a stepping stone to get to natural farming. i would like to include a few quotes to,
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 3, 2007
      interesting analysis about whether it is possible to use permaculture
      as a stepping stone to get to natural farming. i would like to include
      a few quotes to, if you wish, meditate on...


      about pessimism/aloneness vs optimism/community...

      from the preface of "the natural way of farming"...

      "natural farming is based on a nature free of human meddling and
      intervention. it strives to restore nature from the destruction
      wrought by human knowledge and action, and to restore a humanity
      divorced from god.

      while still a youth, a certain turn of events set me out on the proud
      and lonely road back to nature. with sadness, though, i learned that
      one person cannot live alone.

      *one either lives in association with people or in communion with
      nature.*

      i found also, to my despair, that people were no longer truly human,
      and nature no longer truly natural. the noble road that rises above
      the world of relativity was too steep for me.

      these writings are the record of one farmer who for fifty years has
      wandered about in search of nature. i have traveled a long way, yet as
      night falls there remains a long way to go.

      of course, in a sense, natural farming will never be perfected. it
      will not see see general application in it's true form, and will serve
      only as a brake to slow the mad onslaught of scientific agriculture."

      from chapter 2,

      "the laws of modern agriculture are; the law of diminishing returns;
      equilibrium; adaptation; compensation and cancellation; relativity;
      law of minimum"...

      "the fundamental law that natural farming stands upon is 'the dharmic
      law that all things return to one'... all things fuse into a circle,
      which reverts to a point, and the point to nothing. to man, it appears
      as if something has occurred and something has vanished, yet nothing
      is ever created or destroyed"...

      "in his desire to know and understand nature, man applies numerous
      laws to it from many different perspectives.as would be expected,
      human knowledge deepens and expands but man is sadly deceived in
      thinking that he draws closer to a true understanding of nature as he
      learns more about it. for he actually draws further and further away
      from nature with each new discovery and each fresh bit of knowledge.
      these laws are fragments cut from the one law that flows at the source
      of nature. but this is not to say that if reassembled, they would form
      the original law. they would not...

      no matter how many fragmentary laws extracted from the single unnamed
      law of nature are collected together, they can never add up to the
      great source principle. that the nature observed through these laws
      differs fundamentally from true nature should come to no surprise.
      scientific farming based on the application of such laws is vastly
      different from natural farming, which observes the basic principle of
      nature.

      as long as natural farming stands on this unique law, it is guaranteed
      truth and possesses eternal life."



      my opinion...to borrow from al gore...however inconvenient the truth
      may be, there it is and here we are.
      witchessocks, zone 7, virginia
    • Linda Shewan
      To Chris and Jamie, I am not as eloquent as yourself and Jamie but I believe I move forward with the same soul intent ... My awakening came after living in
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 3, 2007
        To Chris and Jamie,

        I am not as eloquent as yourself and Jamie but I believe I move forward with
        the same soul intent ...

        My awakening came after living in Australia for 6 years and just not being
        able to come to terms with the landscape here. I was so fixated by the lush,
        green beauty of my homeland, New Zealand, that my heart simply couldn't
        resonate with what I perceived as the harsh, dry, barren landscape of
        Australia.

        About 6 months ago I sat in my garden, staring at the eucalyptus which
        precludes growing anything for metres around it. I loved the eucalypt, both
        for it's beauty and for the Koala it supports from time to time, but was
        frustrated by the lack of 'useful' space in my assigned vegetable growing
        area!

        Then in a flash it felt like my heart captured the essence of that snow gum
        - how to describe the overwhelming love and acceptance that came with that.
        From that moment on the landscape was transformed. It is almost painful,
        that beautiful heart pain that love brings - I feel as well as see the
        extreme beauty of the natural world. Trees do seem to have the most intense
        affect but really almost everything in 'nature' (I am still struggling with
        the bull ants and poisonous snakes and spiders that abound in this land...
        not with their beauty, simply their bite, which REALLY hurts!)


        Regarding this thread - what I did not understand was why I was condemned
        for the process I was taking as being an anathema to NF when in fact I was
        simply attempting to start on the journey in the way that felt right for me.
        I must confess it still does. I consider the journey my soul is taking to be
        in harmony with the process I am using to take the landscape to one where I
        can achieve a similar style of 'do nothing' farming that Fukuoka-san
        discussed. I do believe we need to 'act', have a process to get there... and
        I may well be wrong in that assumption but I believe that following this
        path I will attain both my inner and outer goals in due time - when I am
        ready I guess.

        I will be reading and re-reading your words of wisdom in an attempt to more
        fully understand the substance behind them. My heart feels it but my
        analytical side keeps saying be real - for example you say that 'Do-nothing'
        is about ceasing our goal-driven, instrumentalist actions. But everytime we
        seedball or clear some land to plant a fruit tree or vegetables - we have a
        goal. To say cease goal-driven actions means that none of these things would
        happen... It is that conflict that I am struggling with! Perhaps it is my
        perception of conflict that is the real problem here.

        Thank you for the discussion. I fully acknowledge I have a long path ahead
        of me and truly feel blessed to have found so many wise souls to support me
        on my journey.

        In peace, Linda
      • Jamie Nicol
        Dear Linda, your humility speaks far more eloquently than my many words. Such openness is just what I understand NF to be and I doubt I have yet achieved such
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
          Dear Linda, your humility speaks far more eloquently than my many words.
          Such openness is just what I understand NF to be and I doubt I have yet
          achieved such openness of spirit.

          I'm sorry if you felt 'condemned' by anything I have written, such was
          certainly not my intention. My wish has been simply to be clear that
          'official' PC is not NF, although I know many PCers who could easily be
          described as NFers. And also know at the same time that such differentiation
          is the very problem itself.

          Here are some of my thoughts on 'do-nothing' (wei wu-wei, the action of
          no-action):

          How can we do without doing? This is a paradox, seemingly without
          resolution. What I'd like to suggest is that ' do-nothing' can only occur
          when we no longer are we (opposed to it or they) but that we become one with
          it or they.

          I would call this non-dual action. This opposes the dualism of Descartes for
          example (I think therefore I am), which is a touchstone of western
          understanding. The suggestion is that in non-dual action there is no
          difference between the agent, the self that does the action, and the
          objective action that is done.

          'Do-nothing' occurs when there is no 'I' to do, but just the world (earth)
          acting. If the grass and the trees are god (as Fukuoka expressed), then so
          are you and me. If we are all god then we are not you and me but it, that
          which is. When we act with this understanding this acting is not acting (as
          agents or subjects) at all. We are no longer 'things' and neither is the
          world an array of things upon which we can act.

          The poetry of Gary Snyder expresses this far better than I can.

          In the Bhagavadgita such an understanding is clearly explained: He who in
          action sees inaction and action in inaction - he is wise amongst
          men...'Having abondoned attachment to the fruit of works, ever content,
          without any kind of dependence, he does nothing though he is ever engaged in
          work (IV, 18, 20) (32)

          And, of course, within Daoism and Zen (Ch'an) there are numerous such
          mentions of this understanding of 'do-nothing'.

          If we move further West again, to Europe, such an understanding of non-dual
          action is also expressed by Meister Eckhart: the soul must open itself to
          receive God's gift. This opening can only occur when our self-love (ego
          self) is let go. So that we are no longer subject but belong as one because
          we let go our self-will and attachment to our own desires. It is in this
          opening openness that humans can attain to their greatest beauty...

          Eckhart writes: God's ground is my ground and my ground is God's ground.
          Here I live on my own as God lives on His own...you should work all works
          out of this ground without why. Indeed, I say, so long as you work for the
          kingdom of heaven, or for God, or for your internal happiness and thus for
          something outward, all is not well with you." (Q.180, 5-13/Bl.,126-7)

          What I hope I'm suggesting is that NF is not NF at all. It is Zen, Dao,
          Buddhism, Advaita Vedanta, Christian Mysticism of the Rhenish School,
          American Indian inspired poetry...it is anything you want to call it as long
          as this calling recognises the need for the releasement from the dictates of
          our ego-selves into an action that does not depend on any dualism at all -
          even if you believe yourself working for God (or for NF or Fukuoka for that
          matter)!

          I am not a Fukuokan nor am I an NFer, I do not believe in God nor the Dao. I
          am a writer who does not believe in words, a thinker who does not believe in
          philosophy, a religious person who does not believe in religion, a farmer
          who does not believe in farming.

          This thread is called ' Growing into NF'. Well, I hope that everyone in this
          world would grow in to NF, but I also hope that no one will lodge there but
          continue to move on with the ever changing flux, because, as was made plain
          more than 2500 years ago:

          "1. The Reason that can be reasoned is not the eternal Reason. The name that
          can be named is not the eternal Name. The Unnamable is of heaven and earth
          the beginning. The Namable becomes of the ten thousand things the mother.

          Therefore it is said:

          2. "He who desireless is found
          The spiritual of the world will sound.
          But he who by desire is bound
          Sees the mere shell of things around."

          3. These two things are the same in source but different in name. Their
          sameness is called a mystery. Indeed, it is the mystery of mysteries. Of all
          spirituality it is the door.


          Jamie
          Souscayrous




          On 7/4/07, Linda Shewan < linda_shewan@...> wrote:
          >
          > To Chris and Jamie,
          >
          > I am not as eloquent as yourself and Jamie but I believe I move forward
          > with
          > the same soul intent ...
          >
          > My awakening came after living in Australia for 6 years and just not being
          > able to come to terms with the landscape here. I was so fixated by the
          > lush,
          > green beauty of my homeland, New Zealand, that my heart simply couldn't
          > resonate with what I perceived as the harsh, dry, barren landscape of
          > Australia.
          >
          > About 6 months ago I sat in my garden, staring at the eucalyptus which
          > precludes growing anything for metres around it. I loved the eucalypt,
          > both
          > for it's beauty and for the Koala it supports from time to time, but was
          > frustrated by the lack of 'useful' space in my assigned vegetable growing
          > area!
          >
          > Then in a flash it felt like my heart captured the essence of that snow
          > gum
          > - how to describe the overwhelming love and acceptance that came with
          > that.
          > From that moment on the landscape was transformed. It is almost painful,
          > that beautiful heart pain that love brings - I feel as well as see the
          > extreme beauty of the natural world. Trees do seem to have the most
          > intense
          > affect but really almost everything in 'nature' (I am still struggling
          > with
          > the bull ants and poisonous snakes and spiders that abound in this land...
          > not with their beauty, simply their bite, which REALLY hurts!)
          >
          > Regarding this thread - what I did not understand was why I was condemned
          > for the process I was taking as being an anathema to NF when in fact I was
          > simply attempting to start on the journey in the way that felt right for
          > me.
          > I must confess it still does. I consider the journey my soul is taking to
          > be
          > in harmony with the process I am using to take the landscape to one where
          > I
          > can achieve a similar style of 'do nothing' farming that Fukuoka-san
          > discussed. I do believe we need to 'act', have a process to get there...
          > and
          > I may well be wrong in that assumption but I believe that following this
          > path I will attain both my inner and outer goals in due time - when I am
          > ready I guess.
          >
          > I will be reading and re-reading your words of wisdom in an attempt to
          > more
          > fully understand the substance behind them. My heart feels it but my
          > analytical side keeps saying be real - for example you say that
          > 'Do-nothing'
          > is about ceasing our goal-driven, instrumentalist actions. But everytime
          > we
          > seedball or clear some land to plant a fruit tree or vegetables - we have
          > a
          > goal. To say cease goal-driven actions means that none of these things
          > would
          > happen... It is that conflict that I am struggling with! Perhaps it is my
          > perception of conflict that is the real problem here.
          >
          > Thank you for the discussion. I fully acknowledge I have a long path ahead
          > of me and truly feel blessed to have found so many wise souls to support
          > me
          > on my journey.
          >
          > In peace, Linda
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • chris opler
          Dear Friends, Thank you for your words. I feel strongly that we are not working against each other, but truly as one. As we each push to clarify, we are
          Message 4 of 8 , Jul 4, 2007
            Dear Friends, Thank you for your words. I feel strongly that we are not working against each other, but truly as one. As we each push to clarify, we are coming closer together. Each has her own path to follow. Yet our paths cross and intertwine and we become lighter, and higher. As you say, Jamie, NF is really an expression of a different perspective, one in which the dualism between the I and the world is collapsed into a single One -- God, the world. I would suggest that this dualism is what permits the system to keep rising. Black/white, woman/man, third-world/first-world, ... . These dualities are both in spirit and in form. The oppression of the other is the condition of the profit of the I. If we live as one world, as one with our fellow beings, then we can no longer
            accept to 'profit' from the exploitation, because the other does not
            exist, she and I are all part of the same One.

            One Love, One Heart, One People,

            Chris

            ----- Message d'origine ----
            De : Linda Shewan <linda_shewan@...>
            À : fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            Envoyé le : Mercredi, 4 Juillet 2007, 7h45mn 27s
            Objet : RE: [fukuoka_farming] Re: growing into NF













            To Chris and Jamie,



            I am not as eloquent as yourself and Jamie but I believe I move forward with

            the same soul intent ...



            My awakening came after living in Australia for 6 years and just not being

            able to come to terms with the landscape here. I was so fixated by the lush,

            green beauty of my homeland, New Zealand, that my heart simply couldn't

            resonate with what I perceived as the harsh, dry, barren landscape of

            Australia.



            About 6 months ago I sat in my garden, staring at the eucalyptus which

            precludes growing anything for metres around it. I loved the eucalypt, both

            for it's beauty and for the Koala it supports from time to time, but was

            frustrated by the lack of 'useful' space in my assigned vegetable growing

            area!



            Then in a flash it felt like my heart captured the essence of that snow gum

            - how to describe the overwhelming love and acceptance that came with that.

            From that moment on the landscape was transformed. It is almost painful,

            that beautiful heart pain that love brings - I feel as well as see the

            extreme beauty of the natural world. Trees do seem to have the most intense

            affect but really almost everything in 'nature' (I am still struggling with

            the bull ants and poisonous snakes and spiders that abound in this land...

            not with their beauty, simply their bite, which REALLY hurts!)



            Regarding this thread - what I did not understand was why I was condemned

            for the process I was taking as being an anathema to NF when in fact I was

            simply attempting to start on the journey in the way that felt right for me.

            I must confess it still does. I consider the journey my soul is taking to be

            in harmony with the process I am using to take the landscape to one where I

            can achieve a similar style of 'do nothing' farming that Fukuoka-san

            discussed. I do believe we need to 'act', have a process to get there... and

            I may well be wrong in that assumption but I believe that following this

            path I will attain both my inner and outer goals in due time - when I am

            ready I guess.



            I will be reading and re-reading your words of wisdom in an attempt to more

            fully understand the substance behind them. My heart feels it but my

            analytical side keeps saying be real - for example you say that 'Do-nothing'

            is about ceasing our goal-driven, instrumentalist actions. But everytime we

            seedball or clear some land to plant a fruit tree or vegetables - we have a

            goal. To say cease goal-driven actions means that none of these things would

            happen... It is that conflict that I am struggling with! Perhaps it is my

            perception of conflict that is the real problem here.



            Thank you for the discussion. I fully acknowledge I have a long path ahead

            of me and truly feel blessed to have found so many wise souls to support me

            on my journey.



            In peace, Linda














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