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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:the need for guidance

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  • Jamie Nicol
    Dear Bart, we agree on so much, so let me waste no more words and just say this: I do not believe that nature or a master move us one step further toward
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 2, 2007
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      Dear Bart, we agree on so much, so let me waste no more words and just say
      this:

      I do not believe that nature or a master move us one step further toward
      enlightenment, only we are responsible for ourselves. As you say clearly; "
      And concerning what in this universe can be a spiritual teacher: the sound
      of passing cars can be the voice of the buddha, a man slaughtering an animal
      can be your teacher. "Therefore a reference toward nature is no answer," you
      say. I agree totally."

      Just so.

      Jamie
      Souscayrous

      On 7/1/07, Bart Van Audenhove <bartovan@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hello Jamie,
      >
      > in no way I wanted to suggest that a community aspiring to NF should first
      > join whatever other community before starting, or that a new community is
      > inappropriate. I have no idea if a new community would be against Thay's
      > wishes; as I understand the tiny bit of his teachings I read, he rather
      > encourages sangha-building, the building of communities, as you say -
      > wherever they are. What you can call a community, is the point of interest,
      > I think - I come back to that later.
      >
      > For me (too) nature is a word which I find hard to use. A spiritual master
      > is nature. A forest is nature. People are. A gun is. And concerning what in
      > this universe can be a spiritual teacher: the sound of passing cars can be
      > the voice of the buddha, a man slaughtering an animal can be your teacher.
      > "Therefore a reference toward nature is no answer," you say. I agree
      > totally.
      > "But, then, neither is the reference to any acknowledged master, because
      > no master can guarantee enlightenment either!" There I would answer: who
      > wants guarantees? To speak about my proper experience: one day I
      > acknowledged in myself my destructive sides, my stupidity, my blindness. At
      > the same time I met a person who apparantly managed his well, who lived in
      > peace. So I turned to him, and asked: please teach me. No need for
      > guarantees of enlightenment, whatever tiny bit you can teach me, is already
      > great.
      > Thay does not give guarantees, but he inspires and guides. He inspires
      > your wife more than any other person (I imagine) and that is the answer to
      > the question what a master can do and why he may be necessary. To put it a
      > bit sloganesk: If the forest doesn't inspire you (suficiently) into
      > awakening, into acting like a buddha (please translate into your spiritual
      > vocabulary), then look for a human master.
      >
      > I also agree totally with what you say next: "NF, Rinzai, Soto, Daoism,
      > Interbeing, Hua-Yen, Advaita
      >
      > Vedanta, Eckhartian Gelassenheit. ..etc are all paths we might travel
      >
      > but I do not believe that any one must subsume the others - the point
      >
      > about any of these paths is that they must open up the way, not close
      >
      > it down to one alternative." If I focus on one path, it is only because I
      > don't want to speak of things outside my proper experience. As I said in one
      > of my earlier mails: please translate into whatever spiritual practice or
      > tradition you know or like. Any way, these are just other names for the same
      > path.
      >
      > So I think we agree on most basic things. Where we might disagree, is on
      > what kind of community is necessary, and how it should come about.
      > Concerning the kind of community needed: I think that whatever new
      > community that comes into being, should have mindfulness at its heart - not
      > farming. I don't know if the world needs natural farming. I do know with
      > profound, heartfelt conviction that it needs mindfulness. And someone like
      > Thich Nhat Anh inspires more faith in me than Fukuoka. So I follow his
      > guidelines, and not Fukuoka's - meaning that NF still captures a lot of my
      > interest, but is in a way secondary practice.
      > And about how it should be formed: in my experience and understanding, a
      > community that does not form around a respected and capable human spiritual
      > master or elder, fails. I remember Thay writing about the fact that
      > traditionally for any Buddhist community to start, there have to be at least
      > four monks who have mastered the necessary techniques and understandings for
      > community building - and that it takes five years of study to master them.
      > If you go with this literally or not doesn't matter, at least it is a sound
      > warning that community-building is not to be taken lightly. I do not mean to
      > say that this master or elder should be resident in the community - only
      > that he should be the reference, and that everybody in the community,
      > without exception, should be able to accept his guidance, or leave the
      > community.
      >
      > I feel that if we are not able to join an existing community - this can be
      > as a "satellite community", as a "sister"- or "daughter"-community
      > (geographically apart but spiritually very closely linked) - we are even
      > less able to form a new one. I would feel we would just be setting up a
      > battlefield, each one with his own ideals (which can be buddhist, or
      > Fukuokist, or Bartist or Jamie-ist), which would be no more than battle
      > positions, trenches to defend. So I do suggest that all COMMUNITY-projects
      > beyond the focus of spiritual masters are problematic, I'm afraid :)
      > So if someone would propose me to join a sister-community of Plum Village
      > (for example), I would consider it very thoroughly. Because there would be a
      > strong reference and inspiration accepted by all: Thich Nhat Anh. When a
      > conflict would arise, we would all know what to do, how exactly to handle
      > it. Or we would feel that this way of handling doesn't become us, and know
      > that we should leave the community. And if we would be unable to handle the
      > conflict ourselves, we would know where to turn.
      > Joining a community without such a reference (which can be any true
      > master, buddhist or not), is out of the question for me. This is a question
      > of humility, of knowing one's limitations. I know I am very very limited in
      > my community-building capacities, and I think this goes for the most of us.
      > I would probably be more of a destructive than a constructive element - if I
      > don't follow the guidance of a master.
      >
      > Maybe this is another point where the need for a human master arises. It
      > is very difficult, I think, to learn from "nature" how to live in peace as
      > humans.
      >
      > In this respect, for me Fukuoka doesn't qualify as a master. I could
      > imagine him being the responsable person in the community for everything
      > concerning the garden - I couldn't imagine anyone better. But as the
      > spiritual master, to take the role Thay has for instance in Plum Vllage, I
      > think he doesn't qualify - and I think he has never proposed himself as
      > such.
      >
      > Maybe your concern about doing something against Thay's wishes, expresses
      > best your need of a human, spiritual master. Or more exactly: it expresses
      > the fact that you already have one, that he IS your spiritual master -
      > otherwise his opinion would be of no special interest...
      >
      > Maybe it is time to choose? I remember a zen master in mexico (Tesshin
      > Sanderson) with whom I went a few times saying that the most important is
      > not the content of the teachings, but the ability to accept them. He laughed
      > and said: "I should have to say to you all to go vote for Lopez Obrador
      > (presidential candidate) the day of the elections, and to vote twice. It
      > would be very interesting to see what you would do." Having more than one
      > master at the same time CAN be a way of escaping this acceptation, of
      > picking and choosing. I chose my Buddhist master - and see Fukuoka as an
      > inspiring, elder co-disciple, a very respected dharma-brother, but not my
      > teacher.
      >
      > I'll be incomunicado the next two weeks, because of my stay at Kanshoji
      > (2-6/7) and Plum Village (6-13/7).
      >
      > Be well and all the best,
      > Bart
      >
      > ----- Mensaje original ----
      > De: onestrawresolution <souscayrous@... <souscayrous%40gmail.com>>
      > Para: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com <fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Enviado: domingo, 1 de julio, 2007 10:51:05
      > Asunto: [fukuoka_farming] Re:the need for guidance
      >
      >
      > Hello Bart, I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the point you're
      >
      > making here: are you saying all people or communities who aspire to NF
      >
      > must join either of the two you mention below or that it is
      >
      > inappropriate to start any new NF community per se?
      >
      > My wife, Anne, has been deeply touched by Thay and we would both be
      >
      > upset if we felt that the establishment of a community would in some
      >
      > way be against his wishes.
      >
      > From our understanding, Thay's focus on 'interbeing' would seem to
      >
      > favour the creation of real community projects wherever they arise,
      >
      > even beyond the boundaries of Plum Village.
      >
      > Or are you again suggesting that all projects beyond the focus of
      >
      > spiritual masters are problematic?
      >
      > Fukuoka would say that it is nature that is the wise master,
      >
      > Jean-Claude has indeed already stated that in this thread. And I would
      >
      > agree, but know in doing so that within the seemingly obvious word
      >
      > 'nature' lies all human wisdom and folly - it is only a word after all
      >
      > and all words are metaphors, coins we trade amongst ourselves whose
      >
      > embossing has long since been rubbed off.
      >
      > Therefore a reference toward nature is no answer. But, then, neither
      >
      > is the reference to any acknowledged master, because no master can
      >
      > guarantee enlightenment either!
      >
      > All insight is only ever personal, individual, its occurence is beyond
      >
      > 'nature's' or a 'master's' power to give.
      >
      > NF is only one path amongst many, and each NF path is different again.
      >
      > If I understand the thrust of your email then I must express my
      >
      > concern: NF, Rinzai, Soto, Daoism, Interbeing, Hua-Yen, Advaita
      >
      > Vedanta, Eckhartian Gelassenheit. ..etc are all paths we might travel
      >
      > but I do not believe that any one must subsume the others - the point
      >
      > about any of these paths is that they must open up the way, not close
      >
      > it down to one alternative.
      >
      > We must become the clearing in which being can come to presence
      >
      > through enowning - attachment to any single path, any one word any
      >
      > unmoving point is to step of the path.
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > Souscayrous
      >
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Bart Van Audenhove
      >
      > <bartovan@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > We are also very interested in meeting like-minded people! That's
      >
      > why the next two weeks we are going to visit 2 communities in the
      >
      > south of France who dedicate themselves to mindfull living. One is the
      >
      > Kanshoji zen temple (http://www.kanshoji .org/) south of Limoges, the
      >
      > other is Plum Village inspired by buddhist monk and teacher Thich Nhat
      >
      > Anh (http://www.plumvill age.org/), about 85km east of Bordeaux.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > If I would not consider these as like-minded people, I think my
      >
      > natural farming could not be natural farming.
      >
      > > So not only is this kind of community possible: it already exists.
      >
      > There are already communities dedicated to natural farming, because
      >
      > they are dedicated to
      >
      > doing-nothing/ mindfulness/ awakaning/ whateveryoucalli t. Two of them are
      >
      > in the region of Bordeaux...
      >
      > > We think it better to strenghten these than to try to start new
      >
      > ones. How do we strenghten them? We have to go see, and ask them...
      >
      > >
      >
      > > See you there?
      >
      > > Bart
      >
      > >
      >
      > > ----- Mensaje original ----
      >
      > > De: Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@ ...>
      >
      > > Para: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com
      >
      > > Enviado: viernes, 22 de junio, 2007 21:28:34
      >
      > > Asunto: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:the need for guidance
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Dear All, I think many of us are concerned by the words
      >
      > we expend on this
      >
      > >
      >
      > > subject, knowing full well that we can never express what we mean. I
      >
      > agree
      >
      > >
      >
      > > with most of what has been expressed, even more with the way it's been
      >
      > >
      >
      > > expressed.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > I have an alternative I'd like to propose: that we all get together and
      >
      > >
      >
      > > real-ise these words. Chris and I are in the South of France,
      >
      > Stephane is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > off scouting in Portugal for his own place (though not before we had the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > chance to meet the other day) and we might even persuade Bart that
      >
      > such a
      >
      > >
      >
      > > community might be possible in Europe.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Is this a possibility, of course!. Is it likely? No. But there is a
      >
      > meeting
      >
      > >
      >
      > > at Panos' new farm in Greece later this year (September I think) when
      >
      > >
      >
      > > perhaps such a proposal might draw others interested too.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > If there's any interest it might be possible to create another group to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > discuss the possibilities.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > I'm very interested in meeting like minded people (and yes,
      >
      > Jean-Claude, we
      >
      > >
      >
      > > did wonder about joining your interesting venture on Salt Spring
      >
      > Island!) to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > explore this possibility.
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Jamie
      >
      > >
      >
      > > Souscayrous
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > On 6/20/07, steph_willems <steph_willems@ yahoo.fr> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Dear Jamie and Bart,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > My lack of experience in natural farming makes me wonder whether I
      >
      > should
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > comment at
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > all. However, this discussion lies at the heart of my interest in
      >
      > NF. For
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > many years, I have
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > been interested both in "ecology" and in "spirituality" . I was,
      >
      > however,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > surprised to see that
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > so few spiritual leaders, and particularly buddhist ones, are truly
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > interested in ecology (so
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > as to put it as the heart of their teachings). Real integration
      >
      > between
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > ecology and
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > spirituality only seems to exist in so-called "primordial"
      >
      > traditions. For
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > them, it seems
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > actually to be one and the same.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Maybe a simplistic way to explain this is that in the buddhist
      >
      > tradition
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > in particular, an
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > interest in ecology might hide an "attachment" to the world of
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > manifestation, to its survival
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > (as well as to our own survival), as if the "external world" was
      >
      > not as
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > important as the life
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > of the mind. But i think this very idea is still very dualistic.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > I realise that my interest in NF is that indeed nature itself is a
      >
      > path
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > (or part of the path) to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > enlightenment. Nature is a teacher. For thousands of years, spiritual
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > traditions have taken
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > nature for granted, so it may well be that nature had always been
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > considered as a teacher,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > alongside official "masters" and gurus, but that was not really
      >
      > mentioned
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > (except in Zen
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > haikus, perhaps). Now, if nature is destroyed, it cannot be a teacher
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > anymore. This is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > where I see the link between the need to protect nature and
      >
      > spirituality.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > From a spiritual
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > point of view, the main reason for protecting nature may not be the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > survival of our
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > species, but the need for an environment that can help reach
      >
      > enlightenment
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > or self-
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > realisation.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > The link to nature indeed helps us to connect to a "more than human"
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > dimension of life, it
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > connects us to the mystery, it is a doorway to God, or whatever
      >
      > other word
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > our limited
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > human language creates. The biggest danger to spirituality is
      >
      > living in a
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > human-only
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > world, even if it is in a buddhist monastery. Wanting to protect
      >
      > nature is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > therefore a sign
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > of "attachment" , but a healthy desire, just as looking for a
      >
      > spiritual
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > master (and
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > contributing to the conservation of spiritual traditions) is also
      >
      > healthy.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > The most difficult question perhaps is, however, whether nature
      >
      > can become
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > our only
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > teacher, as it may be the case for Fukuoka himself. Maybe this is not
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > possible for
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > everyone, maybe most people will also need to follow the path of a
      >
      > "human"
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > teacher. But
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > my point is that following the path of a spiritual master may also
      >
      > not be
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > sufficient if nature
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > all around us is destroyed.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Now I completely agree that NF is not about any technique, like
      >
      > seedballs,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > and that in our
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > efforts to "green deserts", we do not forget the ultimate goal,
      >
      > that is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > our own liberation.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > This is related to "no-doing". For me, no-doing is not about doing
      >
      > nothing
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > in the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > "external" world anyway. No-doing is an inner attitude. One can be
      >
      > active
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > in the world, but
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > be still inside. It may simply be that NF techniques, by the very fact
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > that they "let nature
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > be", are more "compatible with" (without being "a recipe to") this
      >
      > inner
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > stillness that is the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > goal of spirituality.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Stéphane (looking for a place to practice NF)
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming%
      >
      > 40yahoogroups. com>,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > "Jamie Nicol" <souscayrous@ ...> wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Dear Bart, I would like to share JSENT's appreciation of your
      >
      > post, you
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > make
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > many insightful points.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > I'd like to use some of the things you wrote to suggest my own
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > understanding
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > regarding Fukuoka, clearly this is not to suggest right or wrong
      >
      > but to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > further the discussion of Fukuoka's work on this list.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > You write: " I for one cannot imagine anyone practicing natural
      >
      > farming
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > without being (at least somewhat) awakened to the moment. And I can
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > hardly
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > imagine anyone awakening to the moment without spiritual
      >
      > guidance from a
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > true, living master, and without relentless practice. There are
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > exceptions,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > and maybe Fukuoka is one of them, but that is of little
      >
      > importance. What
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > of importance is that Fukuoka, with all respect due to him, only
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > describes
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > the experience without proposing a path - by path I mean a daily
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > practice of
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > mindfulness "exercices". "
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > In reply to this I'd like to make a bold statement: NF is
      >
      > enlightenment!
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Now let me go back a bit:- I agree that no one can practice NF
      >
      > who is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > not
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > enlightened because NF is not about the growing of plants but the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > cultivation of human being. NF is not about agriculture
      >
      > (conventional,
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > organic or other) at all. NF is not about any 'thing', as
      >
      > Fukuoka makes
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > clear it is about no 'thing', which was his life changing
      >
      > experience at
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > age of 25. It is no practice at all, a methodless method. It is the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > philosophy of no-philosophy, it is 'do-nothing' .
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Therefore, to practice NF is to already have experienced the felt
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > intensity
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > of no-thingness which releases us into a world where we
      >
      > recognise that
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > we
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > are already all that we can be and there is really no-thing that
      >
      > we have
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > do.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Let me put it another way: to seek spiritual guidance or to
      >
      > begin the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > practice of NF is possible only to those who are already awakened.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > Whether
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > we practice a gurus method of mindfulness or the method of NF both
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > practices
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > are themselves enlightenment if we make them our own. A teacher
      >
      > is can
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > not
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > be a teacher to those who cannot hear and it is only the ability to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > listen
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > (hearken), to open ourselves to what is (Tathata), that can be
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > considered
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > enlightenment - and we must already have some small part of this
      >
      > to even
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > begin the search for a master.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Fukuoka does describe a path to follow and this path is NF
      >
      > itself. It is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > everchanging, as Fukuoka's life attests. A simple life lived
      >
      > close to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > soil might seem a small life, but within it the great way can be
      >
      > seen.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > There
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > is always the danger in monasteries and meditation that we only make
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > concrete our modern separation of the human and natural worlds
      >
      > rather
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > than
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > remembering that the earth is one.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > You write: " I consider that only walking on this path, one can cast
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > seedballs. I think that otherwise, one just imagines being casting
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > seedballs, while in reality one is using them to fill one's
      >
      > future (and
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > therefore imaginary) stomach, or other people's future (and
      >
      > therefore
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > imaginary) stomachs, or chasing after some other figment of
      >
      > imagination
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > (a
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > better planet, for instance). And while this seedball-casting is
      >
      > a means
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > for
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > obtaining a goal, however noble this goal may seem, I think it has
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > nothing
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > to do with not-doing or natural farming."
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > With this I could not agree more. NF is not seedballs, it can be
      >
      > reduced
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > to
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > no single technique, indeed, it can be reduced to no-technique
      >
      > at all!
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > NF is
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > nothing other than the understanding of what to do, or perhaps more
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > importantly in our busy culture, what not to do. There is
      >
      > no-thing that
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > must
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > be done, including seedballing. All efforts after finding a way
      >
      > to feed
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > the
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > world, revegetate deserts etc, however noble, as you say, will
      >
      > always
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > lose
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > the now which is the only moment in which we can realise NF.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > The grass and the trees (things) may be God as Fukuoka says, but
      >
      > we must
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > not
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > forget that beyond the grass and the trees there is no-thing of
      >
      > which we
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > can
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > say nothing.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Jamie
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > Souscayrous
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > On 6/15/07, JSENT <wegrow4@ > wrote:
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > Thanks Bart, for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate them.
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
      > >
      >
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