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Re : [fukuoka_farming] Re:the need for guidance

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  • chris opler
    Do-nothing seems to be in some ways about parsimony. Its about letting nature do her work. And its about eliminating unnecessary work (work that in many
    Message 1 of 5 , Jul 1 5:15 AM
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      Do-nothing seems to be in some ways about parsimony. Its about letting nature do her work. And its about eliminating unnecessary work (work that in many cases creates even more work). Letting go in NF is a leap of faith. Its like the blinfolded person at the team building workshop who accepts to let go and be kept from falling by the new team mates. For me, NF communities, wherever they are, should be about 'teaching' unlearning, teaching what not to do. Nature guides the re-learning.

      As a side, but related, note: I work as a computer programmer -- a young programmer is constantly creating, producing -- and the more created and produced, the more there is to maintain, the more chances for error there is. As one grows more experienced, you realize that your goal is to write the least amount of code -- and in taking on existing projects, one must untangle and eliminate complexity.

      And so the difference in approaches w PC and NF is that leap of faith in the strategies developed in Nature over millions and millions of years of Evolution. Many paths have been taken and discarded. And, all the time, Nature is changing, mutating, developing, and no moment can every be the same - and so observing, testing, becoming One, opening, accepting, is in fact the most efficient path.

      Best,

      Chris

      ----- Message d'origine ----
      De : onestrawresolution <souscayrous@...>
      À : fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Envoyé le : Dimanche, 1 Juillet 2007, 10h51mn 05s
      Objet : [fukuoka_farming] Re:the need for guidance













      Hello Bart, I'm sorry but I'm not sure I understand the point you're

      making here: are you saying all people or communities who aspire to NF

      must join either of the two you mention below or that it is

      inappropriate to start any new NF community per se?



      My wife, Anne, has been deeply touched by Thay and we would both be

      upset if we felt that the establishment of a community would in some

      way be against his wishes.



      From our understanding, Thay's focus on 'interbeing' would seem to

      favour the creation of real community projects wherever they arise,

      even beyond the boundaries of Plum Village.



      Or are you again suggesting that all projects beyond the focus of

      spiritual masters are problematic?



      Fukuoka would say that it is nature that is the wise master,

      Jean-Claude has indeed already stated that in this thread. And I would

      agree, but know in doing so that within the seemingly obvious word

      'nature' lies all human wisdom and folly - it is only a word after all

      and all words are metaphors, coins we trade amongst ourselves whose

      embossing has long since been rubbed off.



      Therefore a reference toward nature is no answer. But, then, neither

      is the reference to any acknowledged master, because no master can

      guarantee enlightenment either!



      All insight is only ever personal, individual, its occurence is beyond

      'nature's' or a 'master's' power to give.



      NF is only one path amongst many, and each NF path is different again.



      If I understand the thrust of your email then I must express my

      concern: NF, Rinzai, Soto, Daoism, Interbeing, Hua-Yen, Advaita

      Vedanta, Eckhartian Gelassenheit. ..etc are all paths we might travel

      but I do not believe that any one must subsume the others - the point

      about any of these paths is that they must open up the way, not close

      it down to one alternative.



      We must become the clearing in which being can come to presence

      through enowning - attachment to any single path, any one word any

      unmoving point is to step of the path.



      Jamie

      Souscayrous



      --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com, Bart Van Audenhove

      <bartovan@.. .> wrote:

      >

      > We are also very interested in meeting like-minded people! That's

      why the next two weeks we are going to visit 2 communities in the

      south of France who dedicate themselves to mindfull living. One is the

      Kanshoji zen temple (http://www.kanshoji .org/) south of Limoges, the

      other is Plum Village inspired by buddhist monk and teacher Thich Nhat

      Anh (http://www.plumvill age.org/), about 85km east of Bordeaux.

      >

      > If I would not consider these as like-minded people, I think my

      natural farming could not be natural farming.

      > So not only is this kind of community possible: it already exists.

      There are already communities dedicated to natural farming, because

      they are dedicated to

      doing-nothing/ mindfulness/ awakaning/ whateveryoucalli t. Two of them are

      in the region of Bordeaux...

      > We think it better to strenghten these than to try to start new

      ones. How do we strenghten them? We have to go see, and ask them...

      >

      > See you there?

      > Bart

      >

      > ----- Mensaje original ----

      > De: Jamie Nicol <souscayrous@ ...>

      > Para: fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com

      > Enviado: viernes, 22 de junio, 2007 21:28:34

      > Asunto: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re:the need for guidance

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      >

      > Dear All, I think many of us are concerned by the words

      we expend on this

      >

      > subject, knowing full well that we can never express what we mean. I

      agree

      >

      > with most of what has been expressed, even more with the way it's been

      >

      > expressed.

      >

      >

      >

      > I have an alternative I'd like to propose: that we all get together and

      >

      > real-ise these words. Chris and I are in the South of France,

      Stephane is

      >

      > off scouting in Portugal for his own place (though not before we had the

      >

      > chance to meet the other day) and we might even persuade Bart that

      such a

      >

      > community might be possible in Europe.

      >

      >

      >

      > Is this a possibility, of course!. Is it likely? No. But there is a

      meeting

      >

      > at Panos' new farm in Greece later this year (September I think) when

      >

      > perhaps such a proposal might draw others interested too.

      >

      >

      >

      > If there's any interest it might be possible to create another group to

      >

      > discuss the possibilities.

      >

      >

      >

      > I'm very interested in meeting like minded people (and yes,

      Jean-Claude, we

      >

      > did wonder about joining your interesting venture on Salt Spring

      Island!) to

      >

      > explore this possibility.

      >

      >

      >

      > Jamie

      >

      > Souscayrous

      >

      >

      >

      > On 6/20/07, steph_willems <steph_willems@ yahoo.fr> wrote:

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Dear Jamie and Bart,

      >

      > >

      >

      > > My lack of experience in natural farming makes me wonder whether I

      should

      >

      > > comment at

      >

      > > all. However, this discussion lies at the heart of my interest in

      NF. For

      >

      > > many years, I have

      >

      > > been interested both in "ecology" and in "spirituality" . I was,

      however,

      >

      > > surprised to see that

      >

      > > so few spiritual leaders, and particularly buddhist ones, are truly

      >

      > > interested in ecology (so

      >

      > > as to put it as the heart of their teachings). Real integration

      between

      >

      > > ecology and

      >

      > > spirituality only seems to exist in so-called "primordial"

      traditions. For

      >

      > > them, it seems

      >

      > > actually to be one and the same.

      >

      > > Maybe a simplistic way to explain this is that in the buddhist

      tradition

      >

      > > in particular, an

      >

      > > interest in ecology might hide an "attachment" to the world of

      >

      > > manifestation, to its survival

      >

      > > (as well as to our own survival), as if the "external world" was

      not as

      >

      > > important as the life

      >

      > > of the mind. But i think this very idea is still very dualistic.

      >

      > > I realise that my interest in NF is that indeed nature itself is a

      path

      >

      > > (or part of the path) to

      >

      > > enlightenment. Nature is a teacher. For thousands of years, spiritual

      >

      > > traditions have taken

      >

      > > nature for granted, so it may well be that nature had always been

      >

      > > considered as a teacher,

      >

      > > alongside official "masters" and gurus, but that was not really

      mentioned

      >

      > > (except in Zen

      >

      > > haikus, perhaps). Now, if nature is destroyed, it cannot be a teacher

      >

      > > anymore. This is

      >

      > > where I see the link between the need to protect nature and

      spirituality.

      >

      > > From a spiritual

      >

      > > point of view, the main reason for protecting nature may not be the

      >

      > > survival of our

      >

      > > species, but the need for an environment that can help reach

      enlightenment

      >

      > > or self-

      >

      > > realisation.

      >

      > > The link to nature indeed helps us to connect to a "more than human"

      >

      > > dimension of life, it

      >

      > > connects us to the mystery, it is a doorway to God, or whatever

      other word

      >

      > > our limited

      >

      > > human language creates. The biggest danger to spirituality is

      living in a

      >

      > > human-only

      >

      > > world, even if it is in a buddhist monastery. Wanting to protect

      nature is

      >

      > > therefore a sign

      >

      > > of "attachment" , but a healthy desire, just as looking for a

      spiritual

      >

      > > master (and

      >

      > > contributing to the conservation of spiritual traditions) is also

      healthy.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > The most difficult question perhaps is, however, whether nature

      can become

      >

      > > our only

      >

      > > teacher, as it may be the case for Fukuoka himself. Maybe this is not

      >

      > > possible for

      >

      > > everyone, maybe most people will also need to follow the path of a

      "human"

      >

      > > teacher. But

      >

      > > my point is that following the path of a spiritual master may also

      not be

      >

      > > sufficient if nature

      >

      > > all around us is destroyed.

      >

      > > Now I completely agree that NF is not about any technique, like

      seedballs,

      >

      > > and that in our

      >

      > > efforts to "green deserts", we do not forget the ultimate goal,

      that is

      >

      > > our own liberation.

      >

      > > This is related to "no-doing". For me, no-doing is not about doing

      nothing

      >

      > > in the

      >

      > > "external" world anyway. No-doing is an inner attitude. One can be

      active

      >

      > > in the world, but

      >

      > > be still inside. It may simply be that NF techniques, by the very fact

      >

      > > that they "let nature

      >

      > > be", are more "compatible with" (without being "a recipe to") this

      inner

      >

      > > stillness that is the

      >

      > > goal of spirituality.

      >

      > >

      >

      > > Stéphane (looking for a place to practice NF)

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > > --- In fukuoka_farming@ yahoogroups. com <fukuoka_farming%

      40yahoogroups. com>,

      >

      > > "Jamie Nicol" <souscayrous@ ...> wrote:

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > Dear Bart, I would like to share JSENT's appreciation of your

      post, you

      >

      > > make

      >

      > > > many insightful points.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > I'd like to use some of the things you wrote to suggest my own

      >

      > > understanding

      >

      > > > regarding Fukuoka, clearly this is not to suggest right or wrong

      but to

      >

      > > > further the discussion of Fukuoka's work on this list.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > You write: " I for one cannot imagine anyone practicing natural

      farming

      >

      > > > without being (at least somewhat) awakened to the moment. And I can

      >

      > > hardly

      >

      > > > imagine anyone awakening to the moment without spiritual

      guidance from a

      >

      > > > true, living master, and without relentless practice. There are

      >

      > > exceptions,

      >

      > > > and maybe Fukuoka is one of them, but that is of little

      importance. What

      >

      > > is

      >

      > > > of importance is that Fukuoka, with all respect due to him, only

      >

      > > describes

      >

      > > > the experience without proposing a path - by path I mean a daily

      >

      > > practice of

      >

      > > > mindfulness "exercices". "

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > In reply to this I'd like to make a bold statement: NF is

      enlightenment!

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > Now let me go back a bit:- I agree that no one can practice NF

      who is

      >

      > > not

      >

      > > > enlightened because NF is not about the growing of plants but the

      >

      > > > cultivation of human being. NF is not about agriculture

      (conventional,

      >

      > > > organic or other) at all. NF is not about any 'thing', as

      Fukuoka makes

      >

      > > > clear it is about no 'thing', which was his life changing

      experience at

      >

      > > the

      >

      > > > age of 25. It is no practice at all, a methodless method. It is the

      >

      > > > philosophy of no-philosophy, it is 'do-nothing' .

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > Therefore, to practice NF is to already have experienced the felt

      >

      > > intensity

      >

      > > > of no-thingness which releases us into a world where we

      recognise that

      >

      > > we

      >

      > > > are already all that we can be and there is really no-thing that

      we have

      >

      > > to

      >

      > > > do.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > Let me put it another way: to seek spiritual guidance or to

      begin the

      >

      > > > practice of NF is possible only to those who are already awakened.

      >

      > > Whether

      >

      > > > we practice a gurus method of mindfulness or the method of NF both

      >

      > > practices

      >

      > > > are themselves enlightenment if we make them our own. A teacher

      is can

      >

      > > not

      >

      > > > be a teacher to those who cannot hear and it is only the ability to

      >

      > > listen

      >

      > > > (hearken), to open ourselves to what is (Tathata), that can be

      >

      > > considered

      >

      > > > enlightenment - and we must already have some small part of this

      to even

      >

      > > > begin the search for a master.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > Fukuoka does describe a path to follow and this path is NF

      itself. It is

      >

      > > > everchanging, as Fukuoka's life attests. A simple life lived

      close to

      >

      > > the

      >

      > > > soil might seem a small life, but within it the great way can be

      seen.

      >

      > > There

      >

      > > > is always the danger in monasteries and meditation that we only make

      >

      > > > concrete our modern separation of the human and natural worlds

      rather

      >

      > > than

      >

      > > > remembering that the earth is one.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > You write: " I consider that only walking on this path, one can cast

      >

      > > > seedballs. I think that otherwise, one just imagines being casting

      >

      > > > seedballs, while in reality one is using them to fill one's

      future (and

      >

      > > > therefore imaginary) stomach, or other people's future (and

      therefore

      >

      > > > imaginary) stomachs, or chasing after some other figment of

      imagination

      >

      > > (a

      >

      > > > better planet, for instance). And while this seedball-casting is

      a means

      >

      > > for

      >

      > > > obtaining a goal, however noble this goal may seem, I think it has

      >

      > > nothing

      >

      > > > to do with not-doing or natural farming."

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > With this I could not agree more. NF is not seedballs, it can be

      reduced

      >

      > > to

      >

      > > > no single technique, indeed, it can be reduced to no-technique

      at all!

      >

      > > NF is

      >

      > > > nothing other than the understanding of what to do, or perhaps more

      >

      > > > importantly in our busy culture, what not to do. There is

      no-thing that

      >

      > > must

      >

      > > > be done, including seedballing. All efforts after finding a way

      to feed

      >

      > > the

      >

      > > > world, revegetate deserts etc, however noble, as you say, will

      always

      >

      > > lose

      >

      > > > the now which is the only moment in which we can realise NF.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > The grass and the trees (things) may be God as Fukuoka says, but

      we must

      >

      > > not

      >

      > > > forget that beyond the grass and the trees there is no-thing of

      which we

      >

      > > can

      >

      > > > say nothing.

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > Jamie

      >

      > > > Souscayrous

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > On 6/15/07, JSENT <wegrow4@ > wrote:

      >

      > > > >

      >

      > > > > Thanks Bart, for sharing your thoughts. I appreciate them.

      >

      > > > >

      >

      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      > > > >

      >

      > > > >

      >

      > > > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > >

      >

      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      >

      > > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      > >

      >

      >

      >

      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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      -->








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