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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Success Stories for Kikoricco

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  • Jamie Nicol
    Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of success and to avoid falling into esoteric chatter, I thought some words of Fukuoka would be
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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      Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and to avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of Fukuoka would be pragmatic:

      " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man must look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one of the false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society. This is what the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming can be seen as one branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort expand and grow increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We need to halt this expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our knowledge and effort. This is in keeping with the laws of nature. Natural Farming is more than just a revolution in agricultural techniques. It is the practical foundation of a spiritual movement, of a revolution to change the way we live."

      Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and 'success' might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.

      Jamie
      Souscayrous

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Tradingpost
      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:10 PM
      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Success Stories for Kikoricco



      Couldn't agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do
      believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the
      debate, and it's highly misleading. Studies have shown diversified small
      farms to be far more productive overall than industrial farms when total
      output is taken into account instead of a single cash crop mechanically
      farmed with chemicals.

      paul tradingpost@...

      Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
      --Henry David Thoreau
      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

      On 2/2/2007 at 9:18 AM Bart wrote:

      >Maybe we should consider yields rather in terms of minerals, vitamins
      >and general nutritional value per suare meter, instead of volume and
      >weight. It appears that organic vegetables have up to 100% more
      >mineral content (preliminary studies cited in Paul Pitchford's
      >"Healing with whole foods"). So in terms of mineral/vitamin/etc.
      >yield, what at first sight (volume and weight) appears to be a lesser
      >yield, may in fact be a far superior one.
      >
      >Volume and weight are really irrelevant; the ability of produce to
      >sustain healthy life is the real issue. Looking at it that way,
      >natural or veganic farming has a far superior yield compared to
      >chemical farming.
      >Also comparing input of energy and "products" (chemical or not) with
      >output, natural and organic farming have a much higher relative yield,
      >they are much more efficient.
      >
      >I myself experienced very clearly that I needed to eat much less
      >volume and weight once I began to eat only organic food. It has a much
      >higher nutritional "density", so to speak.
      >
      >So forget about producing only 80% compared with chemical neighbours,
      >if you compare input-output-efficiency and nutritional "density", the
      >neighbour looses spectacularly... It's even worse than that: some (or
      >all) of chemically produced foods are even non-foods in reality,
      >industrially grown cabbages for instance have been reported to cause
      >infant death (intoxication by nitrates). Who cares for the chemical
      >neighbours' nitrate bomb disguised as cabbage anyway?
      >
      >Bart





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tradingpost
      High yield and sustainability are not mutually exclusive. To agree that you have to sacrifice one for the other gives up the field to the how will we feed the
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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        High yield and sustainability are not mutually exclusive. To agree that you
        have to sacrifice one for the other gives up the field to the "how will we
        feed the world" agribusiness spin. Serious researchers and growers have
        shown higher outputs from small areas grown organically. We know healthy
        plants producing well from healthy soil are higher brix and taste better.
        And I'm not talking about some weird hybrids either.

        paul tradingpost@...

        Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
        --Henry David Thoreau

        *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

        On 2/2/2007 at 4:52 PM Jamie Nicol wrote:

        >Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and to
        >avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of Fukuoka
        >would be pragmatic:
        >
        > " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man must
        >look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one of the
        >false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society. This is what
        >the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming can be seen as one
        >branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort expand and grow
        >increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We need to halt this
        >expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our knowledge and effort.
        >This is in keeping with the laws of nature. Natural Farming is more than
        >just a revolution in agricultural techniques. It is the practical
        >foundation of a spiritual movement, of a revolution to change the way we
        >live."
        >
        >Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and 'success'
        >might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.
        >
        >Jamie
        >Souscayrous
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Tradingpost
        > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:10 PM
        > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Success Stories for Kikoricco
        >
        >
        >
        > Couldn't agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do
        > believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the
        > debate, and it's highly misleading. Studies have shown diversified small
        > farms to be far more productive overall than industrial farms when total
        > output is taken into account instead of a single cash crop mechanically
        > farmed with chemicals.
        >
        > paul tradingpost@...
        >
      • Bart
        I agree wholeheartedly that this is the real issue of natural farming, and that in natural farming yield is not a goal - in a sense, there is no goal. Thank
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 4, 2007
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          I agree wholeheartedly that this is the real issue of natural farming,
          and that in natural farming yield is not a goal - in a sense, there is
          no goal. Thank you for pointing this out.

          However, let's be careful not to get trapped in Nothingness (which is
          one of the diseases of zen). If my industrial farmer neighbour comes
          to me and tells me, "hey, did you see the sun came up in the west this
          morning", I will tell him that this is not true, i.e. that this is not
          the right way to use these words. I know there is really neither east
          nor west, that these are concepts or illusions, and that the sun
          (another concept) doesn't care, and so on. However, if you open your
          mouth and use words, you should use them correctly.
          In the same way, if he comes to me and tells me "you and your natural
          farming, your yield is pitifull", I think it is important not to let
          ourselves be trapped in his incorrect (selective) use of the term
          "yield", only referring to weight/volume and making abstraction of
          many other important factors.
          Or we can just smile to him of course, but I for one know that if my
          smile doesn't come profoundly from the heart, I better argue :)

          This "industrial high yield"-lie is a stick behind the door with which
          organic producers/consumers/sellers are often beaten on the head -
          with their own full cooperation, choosing to go along with the narrow
          weight/volume-perspective and not finding an adequate response.

          But again, I do think it is very iportant to remember, time after
          time, that he real issue in natural farming is doing nothing.

          Bart

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol" <jamienicol@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and
          to avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of
          Fukuoka would be pragmatic:
          >
          > " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man
          must look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one
          of the false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society.
          This is what the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming
          can be seen as one branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort
          expand and grow increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We
          need to halt this expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our
          knowledge and effort. This is in keeping with the laws of nature.
          Natural Farming is more than just a revolution in agricultural
          techniques. It is the practical foundation of a spiritual movement, of
          a revolution to change the way we live."
          >
          > Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and
          'success' might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.
          >
          > Jamie
          > Souscayrous
          >
        • Andrew E Fister
          The only time an argument exists between natural farming and conventional farming is when I am having it in my mind. If I am arguing (making one view good and
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 4, 2007
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            The only time an argument exists between natural farming and conventional
            farming is when I am having it in my mind. If I am arguing (making one
            view good and another view wrong) that's when I get trapped in the
            illusion of concepts. If I make a distinction between "nothingness" and
            "somethingness" as if they are states of mind I could be trapped in, I am
            also trapped. Once I start having this petty argument with my neighbor, I
            am indeed trapped. Unless of course I also know the trap is an illusion,
            in which case I can play and be in love with my conventional farming
            neighbor.

            If natural farming is about how "to do" and how "not to do" then I am not
            doing it and not - not doing it.

            Andrew Fister
            Wandafar Sanctuary
            Glasgow, KY

            b 2007 08:53:16 -0000 "Bart" <bartovan@...> writes:
            I agree wholeheartedly that this is the real issue of natural farming,
            and that in natural farming yield is not a goal - in a sense, there is
            no goal. Thank you for pointing this out.

            However, let's be careful not to get trapped in Nothingness (which is
            one of the diseases of zen). If my industrial farmer neighbour comes
            to me and tells me, "hey, did you see the sun came up in the west this
            morning", I will tell him that this is not true, i.e. that this is not
            the right way to use these words. I know there is really neither east
            nor west, that these are concepts or illusions, and that the sun
            (another concept) doesn't care, and so on. However, if you open your
            mouth and use words, you should use them correctly.
            In the same way, if he comes to me and tells me "you and your natural
            farming, your yield is pitifull", I think it is important not to let
            ourselves be trapped in his incorrect (selective) use of the term
            "yield", only referring to weight/volume and making abstraction of
            many other important factors.
            Or we can just smile to him of course, but I for one know that if my
            smile doesn't come profoundly from the heart, I better argue :)

            This "industrial high yield"-lie is a stick behind the door with which
            organic producers/consumers/sellers are often beaten on the head -
            with their own full cooperation, choosing to go along with the narrow
            weight/volume-perspective and not finding an adequate response.

            But again, I do think it is very iportant to remember, time after
            time, that he real issue in natural farming is doing nothing.

            Bart

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol" <jamienicol@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and
            to avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of
            Fukuoka would be pragmatic:
            >
            > " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man
            must look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one
            of the false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society.
            This is what the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming
            can be seen as one branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort
            expand and grow increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We
            need to halt this expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our
            knowledge and effort. This is in keeping with the laws of nature.
            Natural Farming is more than just a revolution in agricultural
            techniques. It is the practical foundation of a spiritual movement, of
            a revolution to change the way we live."
            >
            > Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and
            'success' might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.
            >
            > Jamie
            > Souscayrous
            >




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rajuktitus
            Dear Charie, This is working for me i opened this page send by you write mail to group fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com. Thanks Raju
            Message 5 of 27 , Dec 17, 2008
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              Dear Charie,
              This is working for me i opened this page send by you write mail to
              group
              fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com.
              Thanks
              Raju
            • grannis04
              Greetings from Maine. I am a new member to this site having arrived here from the fukuoka web site. I have been experimenting with natural farming/ gardening
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 13, 2009
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                Greetings from Maine. I am a new member to this site having arrived
                here from the fukuoka web site. I have been experimenting with natural
                farming/ gardening for about three years. I have been an organic
                gardener for forty years and now I am starting over and I'm completely
                amazed! why did I not see this before. It is the Mahayana aspect of
                natural farming that rings true to me. Last season we grew a corn crop
                "Abenaki", a flint type from native american origin, of course. With
                the high fuel prices last spring I said to myself, "grow a high input
                crop such as corn and do it without fossil fuel input". I planted in
                an orchard that was mixed grasses, clover, etc. I close cut with a
                hand sythe and then covered rows with mulch in preparation for
                planting. After two weeks I pulled back the mulch and pressed corn
                seed ( saved from previous years crop) on to the soil. I covered the
                seed with a light cover,Half inch, of finished compost. after
                germination I applied cut grasses from the paths to the plants.
                Thinned to one foot spacing then I top dressed lightly with chicken
                litter and grass cuttings, this was done about three times during the
                growing season. Every time I looked at my corn I would say," You guys
                are A-Maize-ing!". The end of the story is that we are eating our own
                cornbread made from the corn. The corn produced approx. 25 lbs. from
                approx. 150' of row space. My next project is to see if I can produce
                enough corn to supply my family and my chickens.
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