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Re: New Member

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  • Bart
    Great to hear that the old Master is still alive, I do feel sorry for my stupid mistake. greetings, Bart
    Message 1 of 27 , Jan 25, 2007
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      Great to hear that the old Master is still alive, I do feel sorry for
      my stupid mistake.

      greetings,
      Bart
    • Jamie Nicol
      Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: How to start farming in a field ? is just to the point. Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field
      Message 2 of 27 , Jan 25, 2007
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        Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: 'How to start farming in a field'?' is just to the point.

        Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field as close to the ground as possible before broadcasting the seedballs (or just seed). I've tried this and have to say little seems to germinate. But then Fukuoka says it requires several years (and several seedballings) to make significant change. And we should not forget that his rice/barley succession, direct-seeded into green manure did not evolve from a rough field, but one that had been carefully tended for hundreds of years.

        But another question arises from the above, and that is 'What is it we want when we start farming a field?'

        When we answer this question for ourselves the actual practice of our farming becomes clear.

        Jamie
        Souscayrous




        ----- Original Message -----
        From: kikoricco
        To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:51 PM
        Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member


        Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
        some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
        wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
        other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if theres
        is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think I
        understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
        wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly useful
        for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like some
        leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or clover
        that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
        size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen. Of
        course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if a
        few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
        diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help cover
        the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash corn
        and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it seems
        logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil, while
        the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks and
        around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
        still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read in
        Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
        vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
        themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats the
        seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
        first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some kind
        of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
        Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one while
        its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and puts
        the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a cover
        so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications to
        give me. thank you.





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • delta_webmaster
        I agree with Jamie, how to start farming in a field, is just to the point. My farming experiments have been largely successful if I start with hand tillage.
        Message 3 of 27 , Jan 25, 2007
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          I agree with Jamie, "how to start farming in a field," is just to the
          point.

          My farming experiments have been largely successful if I start with
          hand tillage. Subsequent seeding into standing crops succeeds in most
          cases where there is enough water to start germination. Less
          successful have been my attempts to overcome dominant grass covered
          fields. At some point in reading Fukuoka I remember the statement
          that some weeding (tilling?) may be required to get started. I have
          been attempting to go from a smaller area of hand tillage to a larger
          area by casting seed into standing grasses with little success. At
          most, legumes represent 10% in this manor. White clover is especially
          difficult to establish this way. Red clover has been a little better.
          This could be a regional difference.

          I am interested in any methods the group members have used to get
          started in persuading a new mix of ground cover. I remember one post
          that suggested a round-up type chemical product to get started and I'm
          reluctant to do this. I have considered an early spring rototilling
          to plant clover into. Any other ideas? I think direct seeding and
          cutting the overgrowth of grass would eventually be successful, but
          coming from a culture of immediate gratification I don't see waiting
          years and years on top of the years already invested.

          The only answer to the question, "What is it we want when we start
          farming a field," it seems to me, is a chance in the long run of
          success in farming a field. Or am I missing an esoteric point here?



          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol" <jamienicol@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: 'How to start farming in a
          field'?' is just to the point.
          >
          > Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field as
          close to the ground as possible before broadcasting the seedballs (or
          just seed). I've tried this and have to say little seems to germinate.
          But then Fukuoka says it requires several years (and several
          seedballings) to make significant change. And we should not forget
          that his rice/barley succession, direct-seeded into green manure did
          not evolve from a rough field, but one that had been carefully tended
          for hundreds of years.
          >
          > But another question arises from the above, and that is 'What is it
          we want when we start farming a field?'
          >
          > When we answer this question for ourselves the actual practice of
          our farming becomes clear.
          >
          > Jamie
          > Souscayrous
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: kikoricco
          > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:51 PM
          > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member
          >
          >
          > Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
          > some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
          > wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
          > other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if theres
          > is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think I
          > understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
          > wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly useful
          > for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like some
          > leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or clover
          > that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
          > size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen. Of
          > course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if a
          > few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
          > diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help cover
          > the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash corn
          > and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it seems
          > logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil, while
          > the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks and
          > around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
          > still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read in
          > Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
          > vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
          > themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats the
          > seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
          > first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some kind
          > of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
          > Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one while
          > its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and puts
          > the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a cover
          > so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications to
          > give me. thank you.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Robert Monie
          Will Bonsall is an acknowledged seedsman; glad to hear he farms veganically ( stock free ). This puts him in the company of the late Scott Nearing, Elliot
          Message 4 of 27 , Jan 25, 2007
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            Will Bonsall is an acknowledged seedsman; glad to hear he farms veganically ( "stock free"). This puts him in the company of the late Scott Nearing, Elliot Coleman, Yoshikazu Kawaguchi, Iain Tolhurst and many others who produce veggies decade after decade, letting the "roots and cover crops" do the work of fertilizing the soil and nourishing the right microbes rather than recruiting animals to supply manure.

            FEDCO seeds has a tribute to Will and a link to his Scatterseed project at
            http://www.fedcoseeds.com/moose/scatterseed.htm

            Andrew, do you know if Will by any chance offers an internship in veganic gardening/farming? This might fill the bill for the several new Fukuoka list members who have been looking for places to learn their craft.

            Bob Monie
            New Orleans, LA


            Andrew E Fister <aefister@...> wrote:
            Yes, "veganic gardening" has been catching on. There is a farmer in
            Maine, Will Bonsall, who has been doing veganic gardening for over 30
            years. He is also the primary curator for Potatoes, Peas, Runner Beans,
            Fava Beans and Biennials for the Seed Savers Exchange. He is also the
            founder of Scatterseed Project, which conducts workshops on veganic
            gardening, seed saving, self reliance, regional food independence and
            sustainability. Scatterseed Project maintains literally thousands of
            varieties of vegetable seed.

            Andrew Fister
            Wandafar Sanctuary
            Glasgow, KY

            On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:31:57 -0800 (PST) Robert Monie
            <bobm20001@...> writes:
            Hi Kikorrico,

            Some of the freshest and most original efforts to farm naturally are to
            be found in Great Britain. Iain Holhurst, for example, who now runs a
            stock-free farm (no animal input, no animal manure) began as a
            traditional animal-manure dairy farmer over twenty years ago and for
            totally economic and pragmatic reasons began to move towards more
            sustainable methods. This odyssey carried him over first to organic
            farming, and now to a distinctly vegan closed-loop method that fertilizes
            using rotations of green manure and rotations of the crops growing in or
            alongside it.

            I recommend Holhurst especially for 2 compelling reasons: 1) he has been
            a successful Commercial farmer for some time, producing over 500 boxes of
            produce for clients weekly, using the sustainable techniques he writes
            about; 2) he is co-author of a recent book that tries to redirect
            agriculture beyond the traditional categories of chemical farming, animal
            farming, and traditional organic farming towards a plant-only closed
            system that does the job. His book (co-authored with Jenny Hall and to be
            released in the US in a few months) is "Growing Green: Animal-Free
            Organic Techniques."

            Holhurst has reported success in growing some food crops directly over
            the green cover crops (as Fukuoka did with vegetables) and some alongside
            the cover crops. I doubt that he has worked out the details yet for every
            crop in every kind of soil, but he is well on his way toward making
            reliable generalizations, especially for crops and soils in Great
            Britain. After you read his book, if you have a chance to meet with
            Holhurst (in person or by correspondence), I don't think you will regret
            it. Also, both Holhurst and his co-author Hall are trying to recover
            techniques known to the British ley farmers of the 19th and early 20th
            centuries but now nearly lost. The big difference is that Holhurst and
            Hall are adapting these techniques to stock-free, vegan soil culture.

            I would call attention to the word "techniques" in Holhurst's book. As
            human beings, without techniques we can only dream.

            For a little glimpse of what Holhurst does see
            http://www.vegfolk.co.uk/news/docs/Tolhurst.pdf

            Sincerely,

            Bob Monie
            New Orleans, LA
            kikoricco <kikoricco@...> wrote:
            Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
            some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
            wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
            other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if theres
            is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think I
            understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
            wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly useful
            for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like some
            leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or clover
            that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
            size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen. Of
            course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if a
            few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
            diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help cover
            the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash corn
            and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it seems
            logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil, while
            the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks and
            around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
            still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read in
            Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
            vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
            themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats the
            seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
            first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some kind
            of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
            Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one while
            its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and puts
            the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a cover
            so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications to
            give me. thank you.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • kikoricco
            Thanks for the reply. So any suggestions or success stories? I jutfrustrated sometimes because nobody tells any success stories jsut problems and mysteries.
            Message 5 of 27 , Jan 26, 2007
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              Thanks for the reply. So any suggestions or success stories? I
              jutfrustrated sometimes because nobody tells any success stories jsut
              problems and mysteries. Encouragment is very important. Thanks
              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol"
              <jamienicol@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: 'How to start farming in a
              field'?' is just to the point.
              >
              > Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field as
              close to the ground as possible before broadcasting the seedballs (or
              just seed). I've tried this and have to say little seems to
              germinate. But then Fukuoka says it requires several years (and
              several seedballings) to make significant change. And we should not
              forget that his rice/barley succession, direct-seeded into green
              manure did not evolve from a rough field, but one that had been
              carefully tended for hundreds of years.
              >
              > But another question arises from the above, and that is 'What is it
              we want when we start farming a field?'
              >
              > When we answer this question for ourselves the actual practice of
              our farming becomes clear.
              >
              > Jamie
              > Souscayrous
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: kikoricco
              > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:51 PM
              > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member
              >
              >
              > Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
              > some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
              > wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
              > other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if
              theres
              > is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think
              I
              > understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
              > wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly
              useful
              > for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like
              some
              > leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or
              clover
              > that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
              > size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen.
              Of
              > course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if
              a
              > few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
              > diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help
              cover
              > the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash
              corn
              > and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it
              seems
              > logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil,
              while
              > the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks
              and
              > around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
              > still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read
              in
              > Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
              > vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
              > themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats
              the
              > seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
              > first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some
              kind
              > of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
              > Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one
              while
              > its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and
              puts
              > the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a
              cover
              > so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications
              to
              > give me. thank you.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Jamie Nicol
              Dear Kikoricco, I have just bought an old vineyard that is split into two, roughly acre-sized fields. These fields have been in vines for more than 100 years
              Message 6 of 27 , Jan 27, 2007
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                Dear Kikoricco, I have just bought an old vineyard that is split into two, roughly acre-sized fields. These fields have been in vines for more than 100 years and with the constant ploughing, spraying (Lime, Copper Sulphate, Round-Up, Pesticide) and leaving the soil naked year round and thus prone to erosion, the soil is almost free of organic matter, dusty (no structure) and devoid of microorganisms - ie almost dead. The field I mentioned I'd seedballed with little immediate success was lush, with many grass, legumes, wild flowers...etc and had not been ploughed for more than 30 years, only mown to keep woody plants from taking over.

                Because of the life in the pasture I would be loath to do anything to disrupt the obviously healthy cycling of myriad life and continue with scything and seedballing/seeding until I had changed what was growing; while for the old vineyard I propose passing a tractor to breakup the plough-pan, to break up the huge clods of soil (it is clay rich here and when dry becomes very hard and these clods weighing upto 25kg have been left after the digging up of the vineyard) and refill the gully that has formed in the lower field due to rainfall erosion.

                Vastly different solutions are required for vastly different circumstances. Perhaps if you gave us an idea of the field you want to begin NF in we could all be more specific with recommendations and techniques that work.

                Jamie
                Souscayrous

                PS I'd be very pleased to hear from anyone with ideas of what to do with the old vineyard. Mediterranean climate, clay soil, calcareous, southerly aspect, 600mm rainfall, falling mostly in autumn but some in spring but with large annual difference (300mm in last 12 months), -7C average annual minimum, 50-60 days above 30C. Thanks
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: kikoricco
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 2:04 AM
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member


                Thanks for the reply. So any suggestions or success stories? I
                jutfrustrated sometimes because nobody tells any success stories jsut
                problems and mysteries. Encouragment is very important. Thanks
                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol"
                <jamienicol@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: 'How to start farming in a
                field'?' is just to the point.
                >
                > Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field as
                close to the ground as possible before broadcasting the seedballs (or
                just seed). I've tried this and have to say little seems to
                germinate. But then Fukuoka says it requires several years (and
                several seedballings) to make significant change. And we should not
                forget that his rice/barley succession, direct-seeded into green
                manure did not evolve from a rough field, but one that had been
                carefully tended for hundreds of years.
                >
                > But another question arises from the above, and that is 'What is it
                we want when we start farming a field?'
                >
                > When we answer this question for ourselves the actual practice of
                our farming becomes clear.
                >
                > Jamie
                > Souscayrous
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: kikoricco
                > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:51 PM
                > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member
                >
                >
                > Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
                > some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
                > wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
                > other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if
                theres
                > is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think
                I
                > understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
                > wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly
                useful
                > for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like
                some
                > leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or
                clover
                > that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
                > size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen.
                Of
                > course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if
                a
                > few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
                > diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help
                cover
                > the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash
                corn
                > and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it
                seems
                > logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil,
                while
                > the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks
                and
                > around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
                > still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read
                in
                > Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
                > vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
                > themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats
                the
                > seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
                > first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some
                kind
                > of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
                > Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one
                while
                > its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and
                puts
                > the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a
                cover
                > so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications
                to
                > give me. thank you.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >





                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Royal A. Purdy
                Jamie, I recommend you take a look at the Yeomans Plow website. (www.yeomansplow.com); somewhere there in the Red Book catalog section is a photo of the
                Message 7 of 27 , Jan 27, 2007
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                  Jamie,

                  I recommend you take a look at the "Yeomans Plow" website.
                  (www.yeomansplow.com); somewhere there in the "Red Book" catalog
                  section is a photo of the very minimally invasive Yeomans type plow
                  being used in a vineyard environment. While there also study
                  the "Keyline" system techniques links as viewed from a Fukuoka Style
                  Natural Farming practitioners perspective and point of view. Good
                  luck.

                  Be safe. Sincerely,

                  Royal A. Purdy, The Elysian Fields and Pasture Project
                  A.H. Tuttle and Company
                  1007 County Road 8
                  Farmington, New York 14425
                  www.ahtuttle.com
                  rapurdy@...
                  315-986-7007
                • Jamie Nicol
                  Dear Royal, thanks for the tip on the Keyline system. I came across it some years ago while enthralled by permaculture (Mollisson has perhaps done more than
                  Message 8 of 27 , Jan 28, 2007
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                    Dear Royal, thanks for the tip on the Keyline system. I came across it some years ago while enthralled by permaculture (Mollisson has perhaps done more than anyone to champion Yeoman's techniques). But my aim is to minimise machinery use and my reluctant use of a tractor, plough and harrow is a one-off. But, again, given the right circumstances (I've read with interest 'The Basis of Keyline' and the success in rebuilding pasture quickly), it might well have an application within NF.

                    A particular technique is neither right nor wrong because before any technique is applied there is the reason that puts it to use.

                    Jamie
                    Souscayrous


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Royal A. Purdy
                    To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:21 PM
                    Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member


                    Jamie,

                    I recommend you take a look at the "Yeomans Plow" website.
                    (www.yeomansplow.com); somewhere there in the "Red Book" catalog
                    section is a photo of the very minimally invasive Yeomans type plow
                    being used in a vineyard environment. While there also study
                    the "Keyline" system techniques links as viewed from a Fukuoka Style
                    Natural Farming practitioners perspective and point of view. Good
                    luck.

                    Be safe. Sincerely,

                    Royal A. Purdy, The Elysian Fields and Pasture Project
                    A.H. Tuttle and Company
                    1007 County Road 8
                    Farmington, New York 14425
                    www.ahtuttle.com
                    rapurdy@...
                    315-986-7007





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Javier Dávila
                    Jamie In my little experiencie that have with the clay in my land i see that the bacteria that get the nitrogen from the air don´t success if the clay not
                    Message 9 of 27 , Jan 28, 2007
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                      Jamie

                      In my little experiencie that have with the clay in my land
                      i see that the bacteria that get the nitrogen from the air don´t
                      success if the clay not allow to breathe the roots.

                      Javier H.



                      At 07:51 a.m. 28/01/2007, you wrote:

                      >Dear Royal, thanks for the tip on the Keyline
                      >system. I came across it some years ago while
                      >enthralled by permaculture (Mollisson has
                      >perhaps done more than anyone to champion
                      >Yeoman's techniques). But my aim is to minimise
                      >machinery use and my reluctant use of a tractor,
                      >plough and harrow is a one-off. But, again,
                      >given the right circumstances (I've read with
                      >interest 'The Basis of Keyline' and the success
                      >in rebuilding pasture quickly), it might well have an application within NF.
                      >
                      >A particular technique is neither right nor
                      >wrong because before any technique is applied
                      >there is the reason that puts it to use.
                      >
                      >Jamie
                      >Souscayrous
                      >
                      >----- Original Message -----
                      >From: Royal A. Purdy
                      >To: <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      >Sent: Saturday, January 27, 2007 5:21 PM
                      >Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member
                      >
                      >Jamie,
                      >
                      >I recommend you take a look at the "Yeomans Plow" website.
                      >(www.yeomansplow.com); somewhere there in the "Red Book" catalog
                      >section is a photo of the very minimally invasive Yeomans type plow
                      >being used in a vineyard environment. While there also study
                      >the "Keyline" system techniques links as viewed from a Fukuoka Style
                      >Natural Farming practitioners perspective and point of view. Good
                      >luck.
                      >
                      >Be safe. Sincerely,
                      >
                      >Royal A. Purdy, The Elysian Fields and Pasture Project
                      >A.H. Tuttle and Company
                      >1007 County Road 8
                      >Farmington, New York 14425
                      >www.ahtuttle.com
                      ><mailto:rapurdy%40ahtuttle.com>rapurdy@...
                      >315-986-7007
                      >
                      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                    • Andrew E Fister
                      Hey Bob, I believe Will and Molly do take on interns, but you have to contact them directly at Khadighar Farm in Maine. From what I gather they are pretty low
                      Message 10 of 27 , Jan 29, 2007
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hey Bob,
                        I believe Will and Molly do take on interns, but you have to contact them
                        directly at Khadighar Farm in Maine. From what I gather they are pretty
                        low tech, so if you want to find out anything you'll have to contact them
                        by snail mail or telephone. Will is very much regionally focused and
                        utilizes only those resources that are available to his area. So I would
                        say anyone interested in learning his gardening ways from outside the New
                        England zone might want to take that into consideration.

                        Andrew Fister
                        Wandafar Sanctuary
                        Glasgow, KY

                        On Thu, 25 Jan 2007 13:18:21 -0800 (PST) Robert Monie
                        <bobm20001@...> writes:
                        Will Bonsall is an acknowledged seedsman; glad to hear he farms
                        veganically ( "stock free"). This puts him in the company of the late
                        Scott Nearing, Elliot Coleman, Yoshikazu Kawaguchi, Iain Tolhurst and
                        many others who produce veggies decade after decade, letting the "roots
                        and cover crops" do the work of fertilizing the soil and nourishing the
                        right microbes rather than recruiting animals to supply manure.

                        FEDCO seeds has a tribute to Will and a link to his Scatterseed project
                        at
                        http://www.fedcoseeds.com/moose/scatterseed.htm

                        Andrew, do you know if Will by any chance offers an internship in veganic
                        gardening/farming? This might fill the bill for the several new Fukuoka
                        list members who have been looking for places to learn their craft.

                        Bob Monie
                        New Orleans, LA

                        Andrew E Fister <aefister@...> wrote:
                        Yes, "veganic gardening" has been catching on. There is a farmer in
                        Maine, Will Bonsall, who has been doing veganic gardening for over 30
                        years. He is also the primary curator for Potatoes, Peas, Runner Beans,
                        Fava Beans and Biennials for the Seed Savers Exchange. He is also the
                        founder of Scatterseed Project, which conducts workshops on veganic
                        gardening, seed saving, self reliance, regional food independence and
                        sustainability. Scatterseed Project maintains literally thousands of
                        varieties of vegetable seed.

                        Andrew Fister
                        Wandafar Sanctuary
                        Glasgow, KY

                        On Wed, 24 Jan 2007 14:31:57 -0800 (PST) Robert Monie
                        <bobm20001@...> writes:
                        Hi Kikorrico,

                        Some of the freshest and most original efforts to farm naturally are to
                        be found in Great Britain. Iain Holhurst, for example, who now runs a
                        stock-free farm (no animal input, no animal manure) began as a
                        traditional animal-manure dairy farmer over twenty years ago and for
                        totally economic and pragmatic reasons began to move towards more
                        sustainable methods. This odyssey carried him over first to organic
                        farming, and now to a distinctly vegan closed-loop method that fertilizes
                        using rotations of green manure and rotations of the crops growing in or
                        alongside it.

                        I recommend Holhurst especially for 2 compelling reasons: 1) he has been
                        a successful Commercial farmer for some time, producing over 500 boxes of
                        produce for clients weekly, using the sustainable techniques he writes
                        about; 2) he is co-author of a recent book that tries to redirect
                        agriculture beyond the traditional categories of chemical farming, animal
                        farming, and traditional organic farming towards a plant-only closed
                        system that does the job. His book (co-authored with Jenny Hall and to be
                        released in the US in a few months) is "Growing Green: Animal-Free
                        Organic Techniques."

                        Holhurst has reported success in growing some food crops directly over
                        the green cover crops (as Fukuoka did with vegetables) and some alongside
                        the cover crops. I doubt that he has worked out the details yet for every
                        crop in every kind of soil, but he is well on his way toward making
                        reliable generalizations, especially for crops and soils in Great
                        Britain. After you read his book, if you have a chance to meet with
                        Holhurst (in person or by correspondence), I don't think you will regret
                        it. Also, both Holhurst and his co-author Hall are trying to recover
                        techniques known to the British ley farmers of the 19th and early 20th
                        centuries but now nearly lost. The big difference is that Holhurst and
                        Hall are adapting these techniques to stock-free, vegan soil culture.

                        I would call attention to the word "techniques" in Holhurst's book. As
                        human beings, without techniques we can only dream.

                        For a little glimpse of what Holhurst does see
                        http://www.vegfolk.co.uk/news/docs/Tolhurst.pdf

                        Sincerely,

                        Bob Monie
                        New Orleans, LA
                        kikoricco <kikoricco@...> wrote:
                        Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
                        some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
                        wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
                        other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if theres
                        is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think I
                        understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
                        wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly useful
                        for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like some
                        leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or clover
                        that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
                        size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen. Of
                        course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if a
                        few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
                        diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help cover
                        the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash corn
                        and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it seems
                        logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil, while
                        the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks and
                        around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
                        still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read in
                        Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
                        vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
                        themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats the
                        seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
                        first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some kind
                        of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
                        Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one while
                        its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and puts
                        the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a cover
                        so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications to
                        give me. thank you.

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • emilie hamilton
                        Thank you for information of Will and Molly s veganic farm in Maine. I have been seeking out farmers who value vegan farming in order to find a place to farm
                        Message 11 of 27 , Jan 29, 2007
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Thank you for information of Will and Molly's 'veganic' farm in
                          Maine. I have been seeking out farmers who value vegan farming
                          in order to find a place to farm this coming spring when I
                          finish house/pet sitting here in Massachusetts. I had the
                          blessed opportunity to met Helen Nearing just after Scott had
                          died - then left New England for a period of time.

                          The other area of the country I have considered moving to is
                          Kentucky - still remember the beauty of plum trees in blossom in
                          early spring driving through Kentucky a number of years ago.

                          I would much appreciate information of veganic farming farms
                          anyone has knowledge of here in the US. THANK YOU. Blessings,
                          Em

                          Let the beauty we love be what we do. Rumi
                          Let everything you do be done in love.
                          1 Corinthians 16:14
                          'Love is the measure.' Dorothy Day
                          'Gather yourselves...All that we do now must
                          be done in a sacred manner.' Hopi Elders 2001



                          ____________________________________________________________________________________
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                        • Robert Monie
                          Hi Kikoricco, What is success ? I grow chinese greens (yo choy, bok choy, tah tsoy, purple mustard, lemon cucumbers, gai lan, perilla, Vietnamese mint,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Jan 30, 2007
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Kikoricco,

                            What is "success"?

                            I grow chinese greens (yo choy, bok choy, tah tsoy, purple mustard, lemon cucumbers, gai lan, perilla, Vietnamese mint, Vietnamese coriander and others) as well as scallions, onions, chives, lemon grass, cucumbers and kumquats in decent amounts (about 75% of what a chemical garden of the same size would support) on soil that has been enlivened by successions of cover crops with some vegan composting and a little annual soil innoculation
                            (with glomus microbes bred by Dr. Michael Melendrez). No till, no fertilizer, no pesticide (though I do spray garlic extract). I think I have a modestly successful "natural" garden and I have started gardens with friends in other locations on the same principles that are doing modestly well. If by "success" you mean beating the yield that your neighbors get with chemicals, I say forget it. Natural farmer Y. Kawaguchi reports that he is doing well after several decades with a yield of about 80% of what the chemical farms produce, and I say very loudly, "good enough"! Some commercial vegan farmers (who are moving pretty fast in the direction of "natural" farming) may be able to do better or may not; we shall wait and see.

                            Seventy to Eighty percent the yield of chemical farming is enough. In the "developed" world, obesity is increasingly common, even in infants. Cutting back to 70% calories, if the food is nutrient dense, would be an improvement for most people.

                            Be happy! Find a mentor who knows seeds and grows veganically. How about Will Bonsall in Maine? (Khadighar Vegan Farm, 39 Bailey Road,. Industry, Maine 04938 or Khadighar Farm, Box 1167, Farmington, Maine 04938--thanks to Andrew for the lead). Veganic farmers are necessarily minimalist, since they forego the use of blood, feathers, bone, hair, animal manures, guanos and urine. This minimalism usually pushes them in the direction of Fukuoka's ideal closed-loop system, with very pleasant results.

                            You need to become a cover-crop and root-growing farmer before you become a food-crop farmer. You need to grow plants that feed the soil and develop humus first before you can grow plants that feed human stomachs.

                            Grow a succession of cover crops for a few seasons to find out what thrives in your area before trying to grow food crops. Take pride in what big, lush cover crops you can grow; cover the fields with them! Try buckwheat, rye, spelt, ladino or New Zealand clover, hairy vetch, red and yellow clover, oilseed radish, "trios" triticale, chicory, nettle. Your cold weather might support bell beans (fava) as well. Here and there (definitely not for complete cover), try some rows of deep rooted "wild" plants like purple coneflower (Echinacea purpurea) with its 24-inch minimum root, deep accumulator herbs like sorrel, plantain, dandelion, and burnet, and some monster root grass like Vetiver grass, with its up to 10-foot long roots.

                            You can also plant some Easy food crops for cover, such as green onions (scallions)--those from the produce shelf at grocery stores will take root in most soils (assuming that the produce clerk didn't cut off the roots).

                            It doesn't matter if you want to try these cover crops separately or mixed so long as you have a fair idea of when not to plant them (buckwheat won't usually grow in the winter, and
                            Daikon radish won't grow well in the hot summer heat, for example). If I put any of these seeds in seedballs, they don''t grow at all for me; but most will grow if I just sow them "naked." There will be some seeds that your region does not like. In New Orleans, hairy vetch usually doesn't sprout, or if it does it wilts soon after. I have planted wheat over and over just to see only a stalk or two every 30 feet or so. But rye grows so wild and fast that you can sow it over a pile of dead leaves and it will take root and cover the leaves with a thick mat of bright green shoots!

                            My Vietnamese farmer friends say that the best you can do is to "make life easy (or happy)for the roots and their friends" (meaning the microbial life that feeds them), and you will be successful. Working with Vietnamese farmers in the New Orleans area, trading
                            cultures, picking brains (as well as Asian greens), and sounding out sympathies, I have learned to roll as the Earth rolls. After a couple of seasons of unsuccessfully trying to get Gai lohn seeds established in a well-composed, cover-cropped New Orleans East field, the farmers just dug up some gai lohn seedlings (which had roots waiting to be made happy) from another field, and the transplants did just fine. In fact, there's no law against growing all your veggies from plug packs for the first few years if your soil doesn't like seeds. Richters in Canada (they ship to the US) has some wonderful "plug packs" of Chinese Cabbage, Japanese eggplants, Gai-lohn, Pak-Choi, and Alpine Strawberries waiting to be made happy. (See http://www.Richters.com). So does Grizzly Hill Farm (http://www.GrowOrganic.com). Their seedlings include purple tomatillo, lemon cucumber, Suyo long Chinese cucumber, mizuna mustand, tat tsoi, and purple wave mustard.

                            Some soils don't like annuals but will grow perennial vegetables (from seed.) John Jeavons' Bountiful Gardens (http://www.bountifulgardens.org) now offers a perennial vegetable exploratory packet (LAY-6610) that includes asparagus, perpetual spinach, seakale, good king henry, rhubarb, artichoke, welsh onion, and sorrel.

                            Start growing!

                            Bob Monie
                            New Orleans, LA
                            After the Flood




                            kikoricco <kikoricco@...> wrote:
                            Thanks for the reply. So any suggestions or success stories? I
                            jutfrustrated sometimes because nobody tells any success stories jsut
                            problems and mysteries. Encouragment is very important. Thanks
                            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol"
                            <jamienicol@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: 'How to start farming in a
                            field'?' is just to the point.
                            >
                            > Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field as
                            close to the ground as possible before broadcasting the seedballs (or
                            just seed). I've tried this and have to say little seems to
                            germinate. But then Fukuoka says it requires several years (and
                            several seedballings) to make significant change. And we should not
                            forget that his rice/barley succession, direct-seeded into green
                            manure did not evolve from a rough field, but one that had been
                            carefully tended for hundreds of years.
                            >
                            > But another question arises from the above, and that is 'What is it
                            we want when we start farming a field?'
                            >
                            > When we answer this question for ourselves the actual practice of
                            our farming becomes clear.
                            >
                            > Jamie
                            > Souscayrous
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: kikoricco
                            > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:51 PM
                            > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member
                            >
                            >
                            > Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
                            > some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
                            > wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
                            > other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if
                            theres
                            > is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think
                            I
                            > understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
                            > wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly
                            useful
                            > for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like
                            some
                            > leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or
                            clover
                            > that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
                            > size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen.
                            Of
                            > course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if
                            a
                            > few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
                            > diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help
                            cover
                            > the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash
                            corn
                            > and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it
                            seems
                            > logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil,
                            while
                            > the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks
                            and
                            > around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
                            > still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read
                            in
                            > Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
                            > vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
                            > themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats
                            the
                            > seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
                            > first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some
                            kind
                            > of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
                            > Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one
                            while
                            > its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and
                            puts
                            > the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a
                            cover
                            > so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications
                            to
                            > give me. thank you.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • kikoricco
                            Yes, It all makes sense. Get the land back into shape by planting colonizing species that do well in extreme soils, deep rooted plant and plants that improve
                            Message 13 of 27 , Jan 30, 2007
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yes, It all makes sense. Get the land back into shape by planting
                              colonizing species that do well in extreme soils, deep rooted plant
                              and plants that improve soils, always keep ground covered. My
                              definition of success is being able to live off the land while
                              enhancing the life of everything associated with it. plants, animals,
                              etc...blablabla. I would have to say my main frustration in living
                              here in NYC were my only garden is 3feetx3feet in front of the house
                              and its already taken up by my mother in laws Jesus statue and a bunch
                              of ugly bricks.
                              Ive been doing a lot of reading and Im impatient to move to South
                              America which I will b doing in a year. My plan is to go to Brazil and
                              learn from these people
                              http://www.farmingsolutions.org/successtories/stories.asp?id=89#
                              the guy who started it all is a swiss guy and 20 years ago bought a
                              big amount of abandonded farm land that used to be rainforest but was
                              degraded to the point of abandon. With his simple slash/ mulch
                              agroforestry techniques 5 years later he had Cacao been yields far
                              higher than the national average and now his land looks just like the
                              rainforest it used to be with Bananas, pineapples, cacao, native
                              fruits, nitrogen fixing trees, etc...he has noticed endangered species
                              that thrive in his land. Even the cacao producing french multinational
                              that lives next door has hired him as a consultant. Him and people who
                              trained under him started a polyculture project in the dyrlands area
                              of brazil with much success. Same agroforestry techniques but designed
                              with different plants suitable to the conditions and now the banks
                              that used to require the farmer to use chemicals and monoculture in
                              order to get a loan are considering changing that to requiring
                              polyculture to get a loan. Its showing that there is a future on the
                              farm and it has stopped many people from moving to the slums in Rio.
                              I did a lot of reading on the internet of the natural farming of the
                              Indians in the americas.
                              http://ppathw3.cals.cornell.edu/mba_project/ETHURSTON.html
                              its very interesting.
                              also on the Hopi Tribe (of arizona) I was reading that traditionaly
                              hopi farmers didnt till the soil and their crops were interspersed
                              with rows of native vegetation (what most people call weeds) to help
                              retain moisture fight erosion windbreak insect resistance etc...
                              also natives in the polynesian islands used to do slash mulch
                              agriculture of banana trees, taro, etc...
                              Im very intersted in growing corn, pole beans and squash together. Ive
                              heard that the corn must be planted a week before or else it will get
                              smothered. and then beans and squash together.
                              I guess for any type of natural farming it is best to get seed from
                              other natural farmers as it is used to being sown naked etc...
                              I will try to contact Will Bonsall but Im already tied up this year
                              with a certificate in horticulture from the brooklyn botanical garden.
                              im sure I would learn alot more with will. I would have to decide
                              because its improtant for me to at least have a little certificate
                              that recognizes me as something. gives credit in the eyes of society.
                              Also check out the CASE STUDIES at Zeri.org
                              very very interesting. you MUST check it out.











                              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Robert Monie <bobm20001@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Kikoricco,
                              >
                              > What is "success"?
                              >
                              > I grow chinese greens (yo choy, bok choy, tah tsoy, purple
                              mustard, lemon cucumbers, gai lan, perilla, Vietnamese mint,
                              Vietnamese coriander and others) as well as scallions, onions, chives,
                              lemon grass, cucumbers and kumquats in decent amounts (about 75% of
                              what a chemical garden of the same size would support) on soil that
                              has been enlivened by successions of cover crops with some vegan
                              composting and a little annual soil innoculation
                              > (with glomus microbes bred by Dr. Michael Melendrez). No till, no
                              fertilizer, no pesticide (though I do spray garlic extract). I think
                              I have a modestly successful "natural" garden and I have started
                              gardens with friends in other locations on the same principles that
                              are doing modestly well. If by "success" you mean beating the yield
                              that your neighbors get with chemicals, I say forget it. Natural
                              farmer Y. Kawaguchi reports that he is doing well after several
                              decades with a yield of about 80% of what the chemical farms produce,
                              and I say very loudly, "good enough"! Some commercial vegan farmers
                              (who are moving pretty fast in the direction of "natural" farming) may
                              be able to do better or may not; we shall wait and see.
                              >
                              > Seventy to Eighty percent the yield of chemical farming is enough.
                              In the "developed" world, obesity is increasingly common, even in
                              infants. Cutting back to 70% calories, if the food is nutrient dense,
                              would be an improvement for most people.
                              >
                              > Be happy! Find a mentor who knows seeds and grows veganically.
                              How about Will Bonsall in Maine? (Khadighar Vegan Farm, 39 Bailey
                              Road,. Industry, Maine 04938 or Khadighar Farm, Box 1167, Farmington,
                              Maine 04938--thanks to Andrew for the lead). Veganic farmers are
                              necessarily minimalist, since they forego the use of blood, feathers,
                              bone, hair, animal manures, guanos and urine. This minimalism usually
                              pushes them in the direction of Fukuoka's ideal closed-loop system,
                              with very pleasant results.
                              >
                              > You need to become a cover-crop and root-growing farmer before you
                              become a food-crop farmer. You need to grow plants that feed the soil
                              and develop humus first before you can grow plants that feed human
                              stomachs.
                              >
                              > Grow a succession of cover crops for a few seasons to find out
                              what thrives in your area before trying to grow food crops. Take pride
                              in what big, lush cover crops you can grow; cover the fields with
                              them! Try buckwheat, rye, spelt, ladino or New Zealand clover, hairy
                              vetch, red and yellow clover, oilseed radish, "trios" triticale,
                              chicory, nettle. Your cold weather might support bell beans (fava) as
                              well. Here and there (definitely not for complete cover), try some
                              rows of deep rooted "wild" plants like purple coneflower (Echinacea
                              purpurea) with its 24-inch minimum root, deep accumulator herbs like
                              sorrel, plantain, dandelion, and burnet, and some monster root grass
                              like Vetiver grass, with its up to 10-foot long roots.
                              >
                              > You can also plant some Easy food crops for cover, such as green
                              onions (scallions)--those from the produce shelf at grocery stores
                              will take root in most soils (assuming that the produce clerk didn't
                              cut off the roots).
                              >
                              > It doesn't matter if you want to try these cover crops separately
                              or mixed so long as you have a fair idea of when not to plant them
                              (buckwheat won't usually grow in the winter, and
                              > Daikon radish won't grow well in the hot summer heat, for
                              example). If I put any of these seeds in seedballs, they don''t grow
                              at all for me; but most will grow if I just sow them "naked." There
                              will be some seeds that your region does not like. In New Orleans,
                              hairy vetch usually doesn't sprout, or if it does it wilts soon after.
                              I have planted wheat over and over just to see only a stalk or two
                              every 30 feet or so. But rye grows so wild and fast that you can sow
                              it over a pile of dead leaves and it will take root and cover the
                              leaves with a thick mat of bright green shoots!
                              >
                              > My Vietnamese farmer friends say that the best you can do is to
                              "make life easy (or happy)for the roots and their friends" (meaning
                              the microbial life that feeds them), and you will be successful.
                              Working with Vietnamese farmers in the New Orleans area, trading
                              > cultures, picking brains (as well as Asian greens), and sounding
                              out sympathies, I have learned to roll as the Earth rolls. After a
                              couple of seasons of unsuccessfully trying to get Gai lohn seeds
                              established in a well-composed, cover-cropped New Orleans East field,
                              the farmers just dug up some gai lohn seedlings (which had roots
                              waiting to be made happy) from another field, and the transplants did
                              just fine. In fact, there's no law against growing all your veggies
                              from plug packs for the first few years if your soil doesn't like
                              seeds. Richters in Canada (they ship to the US) has some wonderful
                              "plug packs" of Chinese Cabbage, Japanese eggplants, Gai-lohn,
                              Pak-Choi, and Alpine Strawberries waiting to be made happy. (See
                              http://www.Richters.com). So does Grizzly Hill Farm
                              (http://www.GrowOrganic.com). Their seedlings include purple
                              tomatillo, lemon cucumber, Suyo long Chinese cucumber, mizuna mustand,
                              tat tsoi, and purple wave mustard.
                              >
                              > Some soils don't like annuals but will grow perennial vegetables
                              (from seed.) John Jeavons' Bountiful Gardens
                              (http://www.bountifulgardens.org) now offers a perennial vegetable
                              exploratory packet (LAY-6610) that includes asparagus, perpetual
                              spinach, seakale, good king henry, rhubarb, artichoke, welsh onion,
                              and sorrel.
                              >
                              > Start growing!
                              >
                              > Bob Monie
                              > New Orleans, LA
                              > After the Flood
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > kikoricco <kikoricco@...> wrote:
                              > Thanks for the reply. So any suggestions or success
                              stories? I
                              > jutfrustrated sometimes because nobody tells any success stories jsut
                              > problems and mysteries. Encouragment is very important. Thanks
                              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol"
                              > <jamienicol@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Dear Kikoricco, I think your question: 'How to start farming in a
                              > field'?' is just to the point.
                              > >
                              > > Fukuoka suggests scything the existing vegetation of a field as
                              > close to the ground as possible before broadcasting the seedballs (or
                              > just seed). I've tried this and have to say little seems to
                              > germinate. But then Fukuoka says it requires several years (and
                              > several seedballings) to make significant change. And we should not
                              > forget that his rice/barley succession, direct-seeded into green
                              > manure did not evolve from a rough field, but one that had been
                              > carefully tended for hundreds of years.
                              > >
                              > > But another question arises from the above, and that is 'What is it
                              > we want when we start farming a field?'
                              > >
                              > > When we answer this question for ourselves the actual practice of
                              > our farming becomes clear.
                              > >
                              > > Jamie
                              > > Souscayrous
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: kikoricco
                              > > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                              > > Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2007 7:51 PM
                              > > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: New Member
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Im new to natural farming myself and I struggle to understand why
                              > > some of the techniques could work at night in my bed with my eyes
                              > > wide open in the darkness. Like suppressing weeds with clover or
                              > > other plants. I was wondering whats the point of doing that if
                              > theres
                              > > is still gonna be plants that compete with the main crop. I think
                              > I
                              > > understand now. The point is not thats there too many weeds in a
                              > > wheat field but that the weeds that appear are not directly
                              > useful
                              > > for the farmer. So replacing them with a different "weed" like
                              > some
                              > > leguminous vegetable that is edible and takes their place or
                              > clover
                              > > that takes their place but is not very demanding due to its small
                              > > size and so does not take up much nutrients and fixes nitrogen.
                              > Of
                              > > course weeds are defined by man and all plants are useful and if
                              > a
                              > > few weeds apear here and there who cares because they add to the
                              > > diversity (which in turn helps balance the insects) and help
                              > cover
                              > > the soil. Im very interested in trying the polyculture of Squash
                              > corn
                              > > and beans in the same field. the more I think of it the more it
                              > seems
                              > > logical (the indians are geniuses). The squash covers the soil,
                              > while
                              > > the corn stretches up to the sky and the beans climb up stalks
                              > and
                              > > around everywhere and fix nitro in the soil. The one question Im
                              > > still grapling with is to how to start farming in a field. I read
                              > in
                              > > Fukuoka book that one could just broadcast seedballs of different
                              > > vegetables and wild plants in a field and that they would come up
                              > > themselves. Instead of using making little holes one just coats
                              > the
                              > > seeds. This makes sense to me. But would one have to apply mulch
                              > > first to smother the other vegetation, or trample it with some
                              > kind
                              > > of manual mower. Once a grain field is established I read that
                              > > Fukuoka broadcasts his next grain crop over the previous one
                              > while
                              > > its still standing along with clover seeds. he then harvests and
                              > puts
                              > > the threshed straw over the field. Im guessing that acts like a
                              > cover
                              > > so seedballs are not needed. Does anyone have any clarifications
                              > to
                              > > give me. thank you.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                            • Bart
                              Maybe we should consider yields rather in terms of minerals, vitamins and general nutritional value per suare meter, instead of volume and weight. It appears
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                Maybe we should consider yields rather in terms of minerals, vitamins
                                and general nutritional value per suare meter, instead of volume and
                                weight. It appears that organic vegetables have up to 100% more
                                mineral content (preliminary studies cited in Paul Pitchford's
                                "Healing with whole foods"). So in terms of mineral/vitamin/etc.
                                yield, what at first sight (volume and weight) appears to be a lesser
                                yield, may in fact be a far superior one.

                                Volume and weight are really irrelevant; the ability of produce to
                                sustain healthy life is the real issue. Looking at it that way,
                                natural or veganic farming has a far superior yield compared to
                                chemical farming.
                                Also comparing input of energy and "products" (chemical or not) with
                                output, natural and organic farming have a much higher relative yield,
                                they are much more efficient.

                                I myself experienced very clearly that I needed to eat much less
                                volume and weight once I began to eat only organic food. It has a much
                                higher nutritional "density", so to speak.

                                So forget about producing only 80% compared with chemical neighbours,
                                if you compare input-output-efficiency and nutritional "density", the
                                neighbour looses spectacularly... It's even worse than that: some (or
                                all) of chemically produced foods are even non-foods in reality,
                                industrially grown cabbages for instance have been reported to cause
                                infant death (intoxication by nitrates). Who cares for the chemical
                                neighbours' nitrate bomb disguised as cabbage anyway?

                                Bart
                              • Tradingpost
                                Couldn t agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the debate, and
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                  Couldn't agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do
                                  believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the
                                  debate, and it's highly misleading. Studies have shown diversified small
                                  farms to be far more productive overall than industrial farms when total
                                  output is taken into account instead of a single cash crop mechanically
                                  farmed with chemicals.


                                  paul tradingpost@...

                                  Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
                                  --Henry David Thoreau
                                  *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                                  On 2/2/2007 at 9:18 AM Bart wrote:

                                  >Maybe we should consider yields rather in terms of minerals, vitamins
                                  >and general nutritional value per suare meter, instead of volume and
                                  >weight. It appears that organic vegetables have up to 100% more
                                  >mineral content (preliminary studies cited in Paul Pitchford's
                                  >"Healing with whole foods"). So in terms of mineral/vitamin/etc.
                                  >yield, what at first sight (volume and weight) appears to be a lesser
                                  >yield, may in fact be a far superior one.
                                  >
                                  >Volume and weight are really irrelevant; the ability of produce to
                                  >sustain healthy life is the real issue. Looking at it that way,
                                  >natural or veganic farming has a far superior yield compared to
                                  >chemical farming.
                                  >Also comparing input of energy and "products" (chemical or not) with
                                  >output, natural and organic farming have a much higher relative yield,
                                  >they are much more efficient.
                                  >
                                  >I myself experienced very clearly that I needed to eat much less
                                  >volume and weight once I began to eat only organic food. It has a much
                                  >higher nutritional "density", so to speak.
                                  >
                                  >So forget about producing only 80% compared with chemical neighbours,
                                  >if you compare input-output-efficiency and nutritional "density", the
                                  >neighbour looses spectacularly... It's even worse than that: some (or
                                  >all) of chemically produced foods are even non-foods in reality,
                                  >industrially grown cabbages for instance have been reported to cause
                                  >infant death (intoxication by nitrates). Who cares for the chemical
                                  >neighbours' nitrate bomb disguised as cabbage anyway?
                                  >
                                  >Bart
                                • Tradingpost
                                  Have to throw in these references about farm size and efficiency. paul tradingpost@lobo.net ... While the “bigger is better” myth is generally accepted, it
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                    Have to throw in these references about farm size and efficiency.

                                    paul tradingpost@...
                                    -----------------

                                    While the “bigger is better” myth is generally accepted, it is a
                                    fallacy. Numerous reports have found that smaller farms are actually more
                                    efficient than larger “industrial” farms. These studies demonstrate
                                    that when farms get larger, the costs of production per unit often
                                    increase, because larger acreage requires more expensive machinery and more
                                    chemicals to protect crops.
                                    from http://www.keepmainefree.org/myth3.html

                                    THE MYTH:
                                    Industrial agriculture is efficient.
                                    THE TRUTH:
                                    Small farms produce more agricultural output per unit area than large
                                    farms. Moreover, larger, less diverse farms require far more mechanical and
                                    chemical inputs. These ever increasing inputs are devastating to the
                                    environment and make these farms far less efficient than smaller, more
                                    sustainable farms.

                                    Proponents of industrial agriculture claim that “bigger is better” when
                                    it comes to food production. They argue that the larger the farm, the more
                                    efficient it is. They admit that these huge corporate farms mean the loss
                                    of family farms and rural communities, but they maintain that this is
                                    simply the inevitable cost of efficient food production. And agribusiness
                                    advocates don’t just promote big farms; they also push big technology.
                                    They typically ridicule small-scale farm technology as grossly inefficient
                                    while heralding intensive use of chemicals, massive machinery,
                                    computerization and genetic engineering - whose affordability and
                                    implementation are only feasible on large farms. The marriage of huge farms
                                    with “mega-technology” is sold to the public as the basic requirement
                                    for efficient food production. Argue against size and technology - the two
                                    staples of modern agriculture - and, they insist, you're undermining
                                    production efficiency and endangering the world's food supply.

                                    While the “bigger is better” myth is generally accepted, it is a
                                    fallacy. Numerous reports have found that smaller farms are actually more
                                    efficient than larger “industrial” farms. These studies demonstrate
                                    that when farms get larger, the costs of production per unit often
                                    increase, because larger acreage requires more expensive machinery and more
                                    chemicals to protect crops. In particular, a 1989 study by the U.S.
                                    National Research Council assessed the efficiency of large industrial food
                                    production systems compared with alternative methods. The conclusion was
                                    exactly contrary to the “bigger is better” myth: “Well-managed
                                    alternative farming systems nearly always use less synthetic chemical
                                    pesticides, fertilizers, and antibiotics per unit of production than
                                    conventional farms. Reduced use of these inputs lowers production costs and
                                    lessens agriculture’s potential for adverse environmental and health
                                    effects without decreasing - and in some cases increasing - per acre crop
                                    yields and the productivity of livestock management systems.”

                                    Output Versus Yield

                                    Agribusiness and economists alike tend to use “yield” measurements when
                                    calculating the productivity of farms. Yield can be defined as the
                                    production per unit of a single crop. For example, a corn farm will be
                                    judged by how many metric tons of corn are produced per acre. More often
                                    than not, the highest yield of a single crop like corn can be best achieved
                                    by planting it alone on an industrial scale in the fields of corporate
                                    farms. These large “monocultures” have become endemic to modern
                                    agriculture for the simple reason that they are the easiest to manage with
                                    heavy machinery and intensive chemical use. It is the single-crop yields of
                                    these farms that are used as the basis for the “bigger is better” myth,
                                    and it is true that the highest yield of a single crop is often achieved
                                    through industrial monocultures.

                                    Smaller farms rarely can compete with this “monoculture” single-crop
                                    yield. They tend to plant crop mixtures, a method known as
                                    “intercropping.” Additionally, where single-crop monocultures have
                                    empty “weed” spaces, small farms use these spaces for crop planting.
                                    They are also more likely to rotate or combine crops and livestock, with
                                    the resulting manure performing the important function of replenishing soil
                                    fertility. These small-scale integrated farms produce far more per unit
                                    area than large farms. Though the yield per unit area of one crop - corn,
                                    for example - may be lower, the total output per unit area for small farms,
                                    often composed of more than a dozen crops and numerous animal products, is
                                    virtually always higher than that of larger farms.

                                    Clearly, if we are to compare accurately the productivity of small and
                                    large farms, we should use total agricultural output, balanced against
                                    total farm inputs and “externalities,” rather than single-crop yield as
                                    our measurement principle. Total output is defined as the sum of everything
                                    a small farmer produces - various grains, fruits, vegetables, fodder, and
                                    animal products - and is the real benchmark of efficiency in farming.
                                    Moreover, productivity measurements should also take into account total
                                    input costs, including large-machinery and chemical use, which often are
                                    left out of the equation in the yield efficiency claims.

                                    Once the flawed yield measurement system is discarded, the “bigger is
                                    better” myth is shattered. As summarized by the food policy expert Peter
                                    Rosset, “Surveying the data, we indeed find that small farms almost
                                    always produce far more agricultural output per unit area than larger
                                    farms. This is now widely recognized by agricultural economists across the
                                    political spectrum, as the inverse relationship between farm size and
                                    output.” He notes that even the World Bank now advocates redistributing
                                    land to small farmers in the third world as a step toward increasing
                                    overall agricultural productivity.

                                    Government studies underscore this “inverse relationship.” According to
                                    a 1992 U.S. Agricultural Census report, relatively smaller farm sizes are 2
                                    to 10 times more productive per unit acre than larger ones. The smallest
                                    farms surveyed in the study, those of 27 acres or less, are more than ten
                                    times as productive (in dollar output per acre) than large farms (6,000
                                    acres or more), and extremely small farms (4 acres or less) can be over a
                                    hundred times as productive.
                                    ------------------

                                    Small-scale farming is as old as agriculture itself. One study of 15
                                    countries, primarily in Asia and Africa, found that per-acre output on
                                    small farms can be as much as four to five times higher than on large ones.
                                    Russia, over the years, has often produced 30% to 50% of its food on
                                    household plots representing as little as 3% to 5% of all Russian farmland.
                                    The productivity of small-scale farms is also being widely recognized by
                                    agricultural economists who call it the “inverse relationship between
                                    farm size and productivity.”
                                    http://www.growbiointensive.org/grow_need.html
                                    ---------------------

                                    "However, by managing more “intensively” the new farmers are able to
                                    net far more profit from each dollar of sales. They reduce their costs of
                                    purchased inputs through diversification, increase the value of their
                                    products through niche markets, focus on the things that they do best, and
                                    work together to do the things that they can’t do as well alone. As a
                                    result, their net return per dollar of sales may be 40 to 50 percent rather
                                    than the 15 to 20 percent for a conventional farm. Thus, the net returns
                                    on a farm with $100,000 in annual sales may be $40,000 to $50,000 and even
                                    a farm with $50,000 in annual sales may net $20,000 to $25,000 to support
                                    the small farm family. The bottom line is that 10 acres, intensively
                                    managed to produce high valued products, may generate more profits than
                                    1,000 acres used to produce bulk agricultural commodities - corn, cattle,
                                    wheat, cotton, etc. Many small farms make some fairly big profits."
                                    Farming for Profit and Quality of Life, John Ikerd
                                    http://www.ssu.missouri.edu/faculty/jikerd/papers/SFTkeynote.html
                                    --------------
                                    "“Get big or get out” is a refrain with which American farmers are all
                                    too familiar. Small farms are seen as being too small to survive, and
                                    thus, unworthy of serious consideration. For example, government programs,
                                    including publicly funded research and education, tend to focus on large,
                                    commercial agricultural operations as the future of American agriculture.
                                    In fact, the opposite is true. Most large, commercial farming today are
                                    too big to survive. Small farms are the future of farming in America. "
                                    Many Farms Are Too Big To Survive, John Ikerd
                                    http://www.ssu.missouri.edu/faculty/jikerd/papers/SFT-Too%20Big.htm
                                    -----------



                                    *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                                    On 2/2/2007 at 8:10 AM Tradingpost wrote:

                                    >Couldn't agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do
                                    >believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the
                                    >debate, and it's highly misleading. Studies have shown diversified small
                                    >farms to be far more productive overall than industrial farms when total
                                    >output is taken into account instead of a single cash crop mechanically
                                    >farmed with chemicals.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >paul tradingpost@...
                                    >
                                    >Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
                                    >--Henry David Thoreau
                                    >*********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********
                                    >
                                    >On 2/2/2007 at 9:18 AM Bart wrote:
                                    >

                                    >>So forget about producing only 80% compared with chemical neighbours,
                                    >>if you compare input-output-efficiency and nutritional "density", the
                                    >>neighbour looses spectacularly... It's even worse than that: some (or
                                    >>all) of chemically produced foods are even non-foods in reality,
                                    >>industrially grown cabbages for instance have been reported to cause
                                    >>infant death (intoxication by nitrates). Who cares for the chemical
                                    >>neighbours' nitrate bomb disguised as cabbage anyway?
                                    >>
                                    >>Bart
                                  • Jamie Nicol
                                    Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of success and to avoid falling into esoteric chatter, I thought some words of Fukuoka would be
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                      Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and to avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of Fukuoka would be pragmatic:

                                      " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man must look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one of the false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society. This is what the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming can be seen as one branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort expand and grow increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We need to halt this expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our knowledge and effort. This is in keeping with the laws of nature. Natural Farming is more than just a revolution in agricultural techniques. It is the practical foundation of a spiritual movement, of a revolution to change the way we live."

                                      Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and 'success' might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.

                                      Jamie
                                      Souscayrous

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Tradingpost
                                      To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:10 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Success Stories for Kikoricco



                                      Couldn't agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do
                                      believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the
                                      debate, and it's highly misleading. Studies have shown diversified small
                                      farms to be far more productive overall than industrial farms when total
                                      output is taken into account instead of a single cash crop mechanically
                                      farmed with chemicals.

                                      paul tradingpost@...

                                      Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
                                      --Henry David Thoreau
                                      *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                                      On 2/2/2007 at 9:18 AM Bart wrote:

                                      >Maybe we should consider yields rather in terms of minerals, vitamins
                                      >and general nutritional value per suare meter, instead of volume and
                                      >weight. It appears that organic vegetables have up to 100% more
                                      >mineral content (preliminary studies cited in Paul Pitchford's
                                      >"Healing with whole foods"). So in terms of mineral/vitamin/etc.
                                      >yield, what at first sight (volume and weight) appears to be a lesser
                                      >yield, may in fact be a far superior one.
                                      >
                                      >Volume and weight are really irrelevant; the ability of produce to
                                      >sustain healthy life is the real issue. Looking at it that way,
                                      >natural or veganic farming has a far superior yield compared to
                                      >chemical farming.
                                      >Also comparing input of energy and "products" (chemical or not) with
                                      >output, natural and organic farming have a much higher relative yield,
                                      >they are much more efficient.
                                      >
                                      >I myself experienced very clearly that I needed to eat much less
                                      >volume and weight once I began to eat only organic food. It has a much
                                      >higher nutritional "density", so to speak.
                                      >
                                      >So forget about producing only 80% compared with chemical neighbours,
                                      >if you compare input-output-efficiency and nutritional "density", the
                                      >neighbour looses spectacularly... It's even worse than that: some (or
                                      >all) of chemically produced foods are even non-foods in reality,
                                      >industrially grown cabbages for instance have been reported to cause
                                      >infant death (intoxication by nitrates). Who cares for the chemical
                                      >neighbours' nitrate bomb disguised as cabbage anyway?
                                      >
                                      >Bart





                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Tradingpost
                                      High yield and sustainability are not mutually exclusive. To agree that you have to sacrifice one for the other gives up the field to the how will we feed the
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 2, 2007
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                                        High yield and sustainability are not mutually exclusive. To agree that you
                                        have to sacrifice one for the other gives up the field to the "how will we
                                        feed the world" agribusiness spin. Serious researchers and growers have
                                        shown higher outputs from small areas grown organically. We know healthy
                                        plants producing well from healthy soil are higher brix and taste better.
                                        And I'm not talking about some weird hybrids either.

                                        paul tradingpost@...

                                        Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes.
                                        --Henry David Thoreau

                                        *********** REPLY SEPARATOR ***********

                                        On 2/2/2007 at 4:52 PM Jamie Nicol wrote:

                                        >Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and to
                                        >avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of Fukuoka
                                        >would be pragmatic:
                                        >
                                        > " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man must
                                        >look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one of the
                                        >false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society. This is what
                                        >the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming can be seen as one
                                        >branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort expand and grow
                                        >increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We need to halt this
                                        >expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our knowledge and effort.
                                        >This is in keeping with the laws of nature. Natural Farming is more than
                                        >just a revolution in agricultural techniques. It is the practical
                                        >foundation of a spiritual movement, of a revolution to change the way we
                                        >live."
                                        >
                                        >Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and 'success'
                                        >might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.
                                        >
                                        >Jamie
                                        >Souscayrous
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Tradingpost
                                        > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 4:10 PM
                                        > Subject: Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Success Stories for Kikoricco
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Couldn't agree more about the nutritional density factor. However I do
                                        > believe the 80% figure allows the industrial farming sector to frame the
                                        > debate, and it's highly misleading. Studies have shown diversified small
                                        > farms to be far more productive overall than industrial farms when total
                                        > output is taken into account instead of a single cash crop mechanically
                                        > farmed with chemicals.
                                        >
                                        > paul tradingpost@...
                                        >
                                      • Bart
                                        I agree wholeheartedly that this is the real issue of natural farming, and that in natural farming yield is not a goal - in a sense, there is no goal. Thank
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 4, 2007
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                                          I agree wholeheartedly that this is the real issue of natural farming,
                                          and that in natural farming yield is not a goal - in a sense, there is
                                          no goal. Thank you for pointing this out.

                                          However, let's be careful not to get trapped in Nothingness (which is
                                          one of the diseases of zen). If my industrial farmer neighbour comes
                                          to me and tells me, "hey, did you see the sun came up in the west this
                                          morning", I will tell him that this is not true, i.e. that this is not
                                          the right way to use these words. I know there is really neither east
                                          nor west, that these are concepts or illusions, and that the sun
                                          (another concept) doesn't care, and so on. However, if you open your
                                          mouth and use words, you should use them correctly.
                                          In the same way, if he comes to me and tells me "you and your natural
                                          farming, your yield is pitifull", I think it is important not to let
                                          ourselves be trapped in his incorrect (selective) use of the term
                                          "yield", only referring to weight/volume and making abstraction of
                                          many other important factors.
                                          Or we can just smile to him of course, but I for one know that if my
                                          smile doesn't come profoundly from the heart, I better argue :)

                                          This "industrial high yield"-lie is a stick behind the door with which
                                          organic producers/consumers/sellers are often beaten on the head -
                                          with their own full cooperation, choosing to go along with the narrow
                                          weight/volume-perspective and not finding an adequate response.

                                          But again, I do think it is very iportant to remember, time after
                                          time, that he real issue in natural farming is doing nothing.

                                          Bart

                                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol" <jamienicol@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and
                                          to avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of
                                          Fukuoka would be pragmatic:
                                          >
                                          > " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man
                                          must look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one
                                          of the false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society.
                                          This is what the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming
                                          can be seen as one branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort
                                          expand and grow increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We
                                          need to halt this expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our
                                          knowledge and effort. This is in keeping with the laws of nature.
                                          Natural Farming is more than just a revolution in agricultural
                                          techniques. It is the practical foundation of a spiritual movement, of
                                          a revolution to change the way we live."
                                          >
                                          > Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and
                                          'success' might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.
                                          >
                                          > Jamie
                                          > Souscayrous
                                          >
                                        • Andrew E Fister
                                          The only time an argument exists between natural farming and conventional farming is when I am having it in my mind. If I am arguing (making one view good and
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 4, 2007
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                                            The only time an argument exists between natural farming and conventional
                                            farming is when I am having it in my mind. If I am arguing (making one
                                            view good and another view wrong) that's when I get trapped in the
                                            illusion of concepts. If I make a distinction between "nothingness" and
                                            "somethingness" as if they are states of mind I could be trapped in, I am
                                            also trapped. Once I start having this petty argument with my neighbor, I
                                            am indeed trapped. Unless of course I also know the trap is an illusion,
                                            in which case I can play and be in love with my conventional farming
                                            neighbor.

                                            If natural farming is about how "to do" and how "not to do" then I am not
                                            doing it and not - not doing it.

                                            Andrew Fister
                                            Wandafar Sanctuary
                                            Glasgow, KY

                                            b 2007 08:53:16 -0000 "Bart" <bartovan@...> writes:
                                            I agree wholeheartedly that this is the real issue of natural farming,
                                            and that in natural farming yield is not a goal - in a sense, there is
                                            no goal. Thank you for pointing this out.

                                            However, let's be careful not to get trapped in Nothingness (which is
                                            one of the diseases of zen). If my industrial farmer neighbour comes
                                            to me and tells me, "hey, did you see the sun came up in the west this
                                            morning", I will tell him that this is not true, i.e. that this is not
                                            the right way to use these words. I know there is really neither east
                                            nor west, that these are concepts or illusions, and that the sun
                                            (another concept) doesn't care, and so on. However, if you open your
                                            mouth and use words, you should use them correctly.
                                            In the same way, if he comes to me and tells me "you and your natural
                                            farming, your yield is pitifull", I think it is important not to let
                                            ourselves be trapped in his incorrect (selective) use of the term
                                            "yield", only referring to weight/volume and making abstraction of
                                            many other important factors.
                                            Or we can just smile to him of course, but I for one know that if my
                                            smile doesn't come profoundly from the heart, I better argue :)

                                            This "industrial high yield"-lie is a stick behind the door with which
                                            organic producers/consumers/sellers are often beaten on the head -
                                            with their own full cooperation, choosing to go along with the narrow
                                            weight/volume-perspective and not finding an adequate response.

                                            But again, I do think it is very iportant to remember, time after
                                            time, that he real issue in natural farming is doing nothing.

                                            Bart

                                            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Jamie Nicol" <jamienicol@...>
                                            wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Dear All, in an attempt to broaden the discussion of 'success' and
                                            to avoid falling into 'esoteric' chatter, I thought some words of
                                            Fukuoka would be pragmatic:
                                            >
                                            > " To achieve a humanity and a society founded on non-action, man
                                            must look back over everything he has done and rid himself one by one
                                            of the false visions and concepts that permeate him and his society.
                                            This is what the 'do-nothing' movement is all about. Natural Farming
                                            can be seen as one branch of this movement. Human knowledge and effort
                                            expand and grow increasingly complex and wasteful without limit. We
                                            need to halt this expansion, to converge, simplify, and reduce our
                                            knowledge and effort. This is in keeping with the laws of nature.
                                            Natural Farming is more than just a revolution in agricultural
                                            techniques. It is the practical foundation of a spiritual movement, of
                                            a revolution to change the way we live."
                                            >
                                            > Obviously, the tenor of these words seems to suggest that NF and
                                            'success' might not be to do with yield, qualitative or quantitative.
                                            >
                                            > Jamie
                                            > Souscayrous
                                            >




                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • rajuktitus
                                            Dear Charie, This is working for me i opened this page send by you write mail to group fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com. Thanks Raju
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Dec 17, 2008
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                                              Dear Charie,
                                              This is working for me i opened this page send by you write mail to
                                              group
                                              fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com.
                                              Thanks
                                              Raju
                                            • grannis04
                                              Greetings from Maine. I am a new member to this site having arrived here from the fukuoka web site. I have been experimenting with natural farming/ gardening
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Jan 13, 2009
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                                                Greetings from Maine. I am a new member to this site having arrived
                                                here from the fukuoka web site. I have been experimenting with natural
                                                farming/ gardening for about three years. I have been an organic
                                                gardener for forty years and now I am starting over and I'm completely
                                                amazed! why did I not see this before. It is the Mahayana aspect of
                                                natural farming that rings true to me. Last season we grew a corn crop
                                                "Abenaki", a flint type from native american origin, of course. With
                                                the high fuel prices last spring I said to myself, "grow a high input
                                                crop such as corn and do it without fossil fuel input". I planted in
                                                an orchard that was mixed grasses, clover, etc. I close cut with a
                                                hand sythe and then covered rows with mulch in preparation for
                                                planting. After two weeks I pulled back the mulch and pressed corn
                                                seed ( saved from previous years crop) on to the soil. I covered the
                                                seed with a light cover,Half inch, of finished compost. after
                                                germination I applied cut grasses from the paths to the plants.
                                                Thinned to one foot spacing then I top dressed lightly with chicken
                                                litter and grass cuttings, this was done about three times during the
                                                growing season. Every time I looked at my corn I would say," You guys
                                                are A-Maize-ing!". The end of the story is that we are eating our own
                                                cornbread made from the corn. The corn produced approx. 25 lbs. from
                                                approx. 150' of row space. My next project is to see if I can produce
                                                enough corn to supply my family and my chickens.
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