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Re: Chemical fertilizers for farming in Africa

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  • eccentrik_idiot
    Thanks a lot jean-claude, your explanation makes a lot of sense. I had my Millenium Villages course yesterday and asked my professor about the long-term
    Message 1 of 29 , Nov 18, 2006
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      Thanks a lot jean-claude, your explanation makes a lot of sense.

      I had my Millenium Villages course yesterday and asked my professor
      about the long-term feasibility of using chemical fertilizers in
      Africa, and basically he does not see plans to stop using chemical
      fertilizers anytime in the future. What he said was that when the
      program withdraws its fertilizer subsidies, the villages will buy
      the chemical fertilizers themselves because they have gotten
      themselves out of the poverty trap and can afford buying stuff by
      that time. When I asked him what would happen if they stop using
      chemical fertilizers, he said "yields would go down." Also, the
      Millenium Villages does not dictate a certain method to villagers,
      but works with villagers to identify what they want most. Since the
      villagers want chemical fertilizers (they have a very negative
      opinion of food aid), the project helped them get fertilizers. And
      that's basically it...

      Yesterday I saw presentations by two agroforest experts working with
      Millenium Villages in Kenya and Malawi, and both of them had very
      positive views of chemical fertilizers (it's the greatest success of
      the program so far) and were convinced that the African Green
      Revolution is under way. In Malawi, the yield has increased hundreds
      of percents due to chemical fertilizer application and imported
      hybrid maize seeds (from Monsanto...). The hybrid maize is more
      suited to African climate than traditional maize in some ways. For
      example, it uses less water, and can deal with climate flunctuations
      better. Secondly, it matures faster and reduces risks. When I asked
      them why they don't plant indigenous drought-resistant crops like
      millet instead, they said it's not practical since none of the
      villagers want to eat things like millet and sorghum nowadays. I am
      not sure whether hybrid maize uses less water than traditional
      crops... does anyone know?

      Improved yields in maize may also improve biodiversity and
      livelihood security, since now that the villagers can feed
      themselves they also want to plant some cash crops like cabbages and
      groundnuts instead of maize monocrop. However, I do not know if all
      this is just short-term speculation... I also fear Africa is going
      down the same path everyone else is trying to backtrack nowadays,
      but maybe the bottom line is that sustainability is a luxury good at
      this stage.


      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Bond"
      <m007j_1999@...> wrote:
      >
      > Thank-you, Jean Claude. Merci beaucoup. Now I get it - j'y suis!
      >
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer / Jean-
      Claude
      > Catry" <instinct@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Again, I would like to point out that I value Fukuoka's methods
      > and
      > > I would like to learn more about them even though I do not
      think
      > > they are universally applicable to every part of the world.
      > > ther is a confusion about masanobu fukuoka' s method .
      > > it is not a technic and certainly not reduced to the technics he
      > developped himself for his land , it is an attitude and an
      > understanding of the interdependance of all natural phenomenons.
      > humans being only one element of this dance not the doer of the
      > dance .
      > > so his method is non only actually applicable to the world but a
      > necessarry endeavor to heal our relationship to the earth ( note
      > that i am not saying healing the earth )
      > > " nature knows thousands of diseases and yet none "
      > > jean-claude
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > >
      >
    • Ingrid Bauer / Jean-Claude Catry
      Message 2 of 29 , Nov 19, 2006
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        < What he said was that when the
        program withdraws its fertilizer subsidies, the villages will buy
        the chemical fertilizers themselves because they have gotten
        themselves out of the poverty trap and can afford buying stuff by
        that time. When I asked him what would happen if they stop using
        chemical fertilizers, he said "yields would go down." >

        Drud dealer in the street do the same, they bait peoples into dependance then sale their crap .

        what happens is that people loose their hability to secrete endorphine and other natural pleasure hormones and become dependant on substances exterior to the body to experience pleasure . the end result is an unavoidable lost of quality of life and hability to feel good on their own feet.
        the soil life is no different , withdraw the chemicals and it experience withdrawal symptoms .
        the "power" of addiction can be seen in so many aspects of our culture and its commerce .
        More people spin off the center of nature and more this process takes its toll ...

        more you center yourself in harmony with the flow of nature less addiction have power over you .

        The reason Masanobu choose to help the poorest of the poorest , is because they have no chance to get off " the poverty trap" and so no hability to buy dreams . that makes them more receptive to the truth.

        Track back the money trail behind those "generous help to the poor" and see !
        ( i don't even say your professor is conscient of the role he play into this game, yet he is getting his reward )

        soon enough, the rich will beg the poorest of all, to teach them about life without crutches.

        jean-claude



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Forest Shomer
        My dear regional neighbor Jean-Claude, It s not so much what you have to say, but the way you say it. The scornful tone in your certitude often causes me to
        Message 3 of 29 , Nov 20, 2006
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          My dear regional neighbor Jean-Claude,

          It's not so much what you have to say, but the way you say it. The
          scornful tone in your certitude often causes me to wonder, if one
          meets such a tone in face-to-face communication, wouldn't one just
          walk away, even in mid-sentence? Or stay, and engage in argument?

          There are over 900 other readers on this list, and that means there
          are as many possible interpretations of Fukuokan teaching. None of
          them deserve to be insulted. Just because we don't meet face-to-face
          is no excuse for being so harsh.

          When you write, try imagining that the person(s) is right in front of
          you and that you care for him/her.

          The great irony of this list, is that Masanobu Fukuoka doesn't write
          in his own comments, yet there are some writers who presume to speak
          for him from their own limited perspective. Newbies: take this
          second-hand 'teaching' with a few grains of salt!

          Twenty years ago, Fukuoka-san visited and stayed in my home for three
          days. We walked around the gardens I had at that time (they don't
          exist now) and he commented, "This is 80% of what I do."

          To me that means that either I have 20% more to learn (actually one
          never stops learning), or he graciously grants me 20% in which to be
          different and develop my own locality-specific form of mastery.

          So most of all, he is gracious in his method. This matters at least
          as much as the specific techniques he offers.

          Personally, I enjoy very much Bob Monie's contributions to this list.
          He speaks from personal experience, employs Fukuokan teaching in a
          non-doctrinal way as befits his situation, shows consideration for
          all readers, and doesn't come across as self-aggrandizing. Bob, I
          would enjoy meeting you someday!

          Truly,

          Forest Shomer
          Port Townsend, WA, USA




          At 12:14 PM +0000 11/20/06, fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
          >Drud dealer in the street do the same, they bait peoples into
          >dependance then sale their crap .
          >
          >what happens is that people loose their hability to secrete
          >endorphine and other natural pleasure hormones and become dependant
          >on substances exterior to the body to experience pleasure . the end
          >result is an unavoidable lost of quality of life and hability to
          >feel good on their own feet.
          >the soil life is no different , withdraw the chemicals and it
          >experience withdrawal symptoms .
          >the "power" of addiction can be seen in so many aspects of our
          >culture and its commerce .
          >More people spin off the center of nature and more this process
          >takes its toll ...
          >
          >more you center yourself in harmony with the flow of nature less
          >addiction have power over you .
          >
          >The reason Masanobu choose to help the poorest of the poorest , is
          >because they have no chance to get off " the poverty trap" and so no
          >hability to buy dreams . that makes them more receptive to the truth.
          >
          >Track back the money trail behind those "generous help to the poor" and see !
          >( i don't even say your professor is conscient of the role he play
          >into this game, yet he is getting his reward )
          >
          >soon enough, the rich will beg the poorest of all, to teach them
          >about life without crutches.
          >
          >jean-claude

          --
        • Matthew Bond
          Brilliant! I never thought of fertilisers being like drugs of dependence! That just sums it up beautifully! ... dependance then sale their crap . ...
          Message 4 of 29 , Nov 20, 2006
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            Brilliant! I never thought of fertilisers being like drugs of
            dependence! That just sums it up beautifully!

            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer / Jean-Claude
            Catry" <instinct@...> wrote:
            >
            > < What he said was that when the
            > program withdraws its fertilizer subsidies, the villages will buy
            > the chemical fertilizers themselves because they have gotten
            > themselves out of the poverty trap and can afford buying stuff by
            > that time. When I asked him what would happen if they stop using
            > chemical fertilizers, he said "yields would go down." >
            >
            > Drud dealer in the street do the same, they bait peoples into
            dependance then sale their crap .
            >
            > what happens is that people loose their hability to secrete
            endorphine and other natural pleasure hormones and become dependant
            on substances exterior to the body to experience pleasure . the end
            result is an unavoidable lost of quality of life and hability to
            feel good on their own feet.
            > the soil life is no different , withdraw the chemicals and it
            experience withdrawal symptoms .
            > the "power" of addiction can be seen in so many aspects of our
            culture and its commerce .
            > More people spin off the center of nature and more this process
            takes its toll ...
            >
            > more you center yourself in harmony with the flow of nature less
            addiction have power over you .
            >
            > The reason Masanobu choose to help the poorest of the poorest ,
            is because they have no chance to get off " the poverty trap" and so
            no hability to buy dreams . that makes them more receptive to the
            truth.
            >
            > Track back the money trail behind those "generous help to the
            poor" and see !
            > ( i don't even say your professor is conscient of the role he play
            into this game, yet he is getting his reward )
            >
            > soon enough, the rich will beg the poorest of all, to teach them
            about life without crutches.
            >
            > jean-claude
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Ingrid Bauer / Jean-Claude Catry
            hello forest Are you feeling annoyed and uneasy because you would like some consideration for other point of view? it will help me if you could give me a
            Message 5 of 29 , Nov 20, 2006
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              hello forest

              Are you feeling annoyed and uneasy because you would like some consideration for other point of view?
              it will help me if you could give me a specific observation of what i am writing that trigger such feeling .

              I am wondering how you can to get the tone of my saying thru email .
              i am not in agreement with your perception of my tone , it is not my experience !
              i value other people's certitudes and so i value mines!

              if you look carefully Masanobu's writing you will see that he value this also, yet in person he is a gentle man.
              i will love to meet you and your garden one day ,i have friends in portownsend . you are also welcome to visit me and hear the tone of my voice .

              i am curious if forest concerns are shared by others it will meet my need for clarity .
              jean-claude
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Forest Shomer
              To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, November 20, 2006 6:49 AM
              Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Chemical fertilizers for farming in Africa


              My dear regional neighbor Jean-Claude,

              It's not so much what you have to say, but the way you say it. The
              scornful tone in your certitude often causes me to wonder, if one
              meets such a tone in face-to-face communication, wouldn't one just
              walk away, even in mid-sentence? Or stay, and engage in argument?

              There are over 900 other readers on this list, and that means there
              are as many possible interpretations of Fukuokan teaching. None of
              them deserve to be insulted. Just because we don't meet face-to-face
              is no excuse for being so harsh.

              When you write, try imagining that the person(s) is right in front of
              you and that you care for him/her.

              The great irony of this list, is that Masanobu Fukuoka doesn't write
              in his own comments, yet there are some writers who presume to speak
              for him from their own limited perspective. Newbies: take this
              second-hand 'teaching' with a few grains of salt!

              Twenty years ago, Fukuoka-san visited and stayed in my home for three
              days. We walked around the gardens I had at that time (they don't
              exist now) and he commented, "This is 80% of what I do."

              To me that means that either I have 20% more to learn (actually one
              never stops learning), or he graciously grants me 20% in which to be
              different and develop my own locality-specific form of mastery.

              So most of all, he is gracious in his method. This matters at least
              as much as the specific techniques he offers.

              Personally, I enjoy very much Bob Monie's contributions to this list.
              He speaks from personal experience, employs Fukuokan teaching in a
              non-doctrinal way as befits his situation, shows consideration for
              all readers, and doesn't come across as self-aggrandizing. Bob, I
              would enjoy meeting you someday!

              Truly,

              Forest Shomer
              Port Townsend, WA, USA

              At 12:14 PM +0000 11/20/06, fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
              >Drud dealer in the street do the same, they bait peoples into
              >dependance then sale their crap .
              >
              >what happens is that people loose their hability to secrete
              >endorphine and other natural pleasure hormones and become dependant
              >on substances exterior to the body to experience pleasure . the end
              >result is an unavoidable lost of quality of life and hability to
              >feel good on their own feet.
              >the soil life is no different , withdraw the chemicals and it
              >experience withdrawal symptoms .
              >the "power" of addiction can be seen in so many aspects of our
              >culture and its commerce .
              >More people spin off the center of nature and more this process
              >takes its toll ...
              >
              >more you center yourself in harmony with the flow of nature less
              >addiction have power over you .
              >
              >The reason Masanobu choose to help the poorest of the poorest , is
              >because they have no chance to get off " the poverty trap" and so no
              >hability to buy dreams . that makes them more receptive to the truth.
              >
              >Track back the money trail behind those "generous help to the poor" and see !
              >( i don't even say your professor is conscient of the role he play
              >into this game, yet he is getting his reward )
              >
              >soon enough, the rich will beg the poorest of all, to teach them
              >about life without crutches.
              >
              >jean-claude

              --





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • michael
              Forest, is Duke Rhodes still knocking about in your town these days? - Michael ... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              Message 6 of 29 , Jan 8, 2007
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                Forest,
                is Duke Rhodes still knocking about in your town these days?
                - Michael

                On Nov 20, 2006, at 8:49 AM, Forest Shomer wrote:

                > My dear regional neighbor Jean-Claude,
                >
                > It's not so much what you have to say, but the way you say it. The
                > scornful tone in your certitude often causes me to wonder, if one
                > meets such a tone in face-to-face communication, wouldn't one just
                > walk away, even in mid-sentence? Or stay, and engage in argument?
                >
                > There are over 900 other readers on this list, and that means there
                > are as many possible interpretations of Fukuokan teaching. None of
                > them deserve to be insulted. Just because we don't meet face-to-face
                > is no excuse for being so harsh.
                >
                > When you write, try imagining that the person(s) is right in front of
                > you and that you care for him/her.
                >
                > The great irony of this list, is that Masanobu Fukuoka doesn't write
                > in his own comments, yet there are some writers who presume to speak
                > for him from their own limited perspective. Newbies: take this
                > second-hand 'teaching' with a few grains of salt!
                >
                > Twenty years ago, Fukuoka-san visited and stayed in my home for three
                > days. We walked around the gardens I had at that time (they don't
                > exist now) and he commented, "This is 80% of what I do."
                >
                > To me that means that either I have 20% more to learn (actually one
                > never stops learning), or he graciously grants me 20% in which to be
                > different and develop my own locality-specific form of mastery.
                >
                > So most of all, he is gracious in his method. This matters at least
                > as much as the specific techniques he offers.
                >
                > Personally, I enjoy very much Bob Monie's contributions to this list.
                > He speaks from personal experience, employs Fukuokan teaching in a
                > non-doctrinal way as befits his situation, shows consideration for
                > all readers, and doesn't come across as self-aggrandizing. Bob, I
                > would enjoy meeting you someday!
                >
                > Truly,
                >
                > Forest Shomer
                > Port Townsend, WA, USA
                >
                > At 12:14 PM +0000 11/20/06, fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com wrote:
                > >Drud dealer in the street do the same, they bait peoples into
                > >dependance then sale their crap .
                > >
                > >what happens is that people loose their hability to secrete
                > >endorphine and other natural pleasure hormones and become dependant
                > >on substances exterior to the body to experience pleasure . the end
                > >result is an unavoidable lost of quality of life and hability to
                > >feel good on their own feet.
                > >the soil life is no different , withdraw the chemicals and it
                > >experience withdrawal symptoms .
                > >the "power" of addiction can be seen in so many aspects of our
                > >culture and its commerce .
                > >More people spin off the center of nature and more this process
                > >takes its toll ...
                > >
                > >more you center yourself in harmony with the flow of nature less
                > >addiction have power over you .
                > >
                > >The reason Masanobu choose to help the poorest of the poorest , is
                > >because they have no chance to get off " the poverty trap" and so no
                > >hability to buy dreams . that makes them more receptive to the truth.
                > >
                > >Track back the money trail behind those "generous help to the
                > poor" and see !
                > >( i don't even say your professor is conscient of the role he play
                > >into this game, yet he is getting his reward )
                > >
                > >soon enough, the rich will beg the poorest of all, to teach them
                > >about life without crutches.
                > >
                > >jean-claude
                >
                > --
                >
                >
                >



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jeff
                One of the ideas I ve run across that is truely inspiring for the tropics is terra preata. It is a system of soil improvement by the ancients in the Amazon
                Message 7 of 29 , May 13, 2007
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                  One of the ideas I've run across that is truely inspiring for the
                  tropics is terra preata.

                  It is a system of soil improvement by the ancients in the Amazon Rain
                  forest basin. Tracts of 200 acres have been found. Amazingly after 500
                  years of cultivation they retain significant fertility.

                  The primary ingredient in terra preata is bio-char (low to mid
                  temperature charcoal). It sorbs nutrients very tightly and prevents
                  leaching. The bio-char also has ideal water holding capacity.

                  The terra preata soils have up to 30% charcoal.

                  There are several sites on the internet available with technical
                  information.

                  Does anyone from the group have experience with this??
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