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Re: starting new no-till project in SE Kansas, USA

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  • BT Benjaminson
    Daikon radishes sound like they may be worth sowing in the early fall. These are very strong to break up hard clay soil. Good ones can go down 1 - 2 feet.
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 18, 2006
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      Daikon radishes sound like they may be worth sowing in the early fall. These are very strong to break up hard clay soil. Good ones can go down 1 - 2 feet.
      Bat-Tzion
      Negev, Israel


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Gloria C. Baikauskas
      What a great new start for the two of you! One big thing with Fukuoka s wisdom was to do as little as possible to interfere with Nature. By double digging your
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 22, 2006
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        What a great new start for the two of you!

        One big thing with Fukuoka's wisdom was to do as little as possible
        to interfere with Nature. By double digging your raised beds you will
        be massively interfering. You will also be bringing up weed seeds
        from a place where they would not otherwise germinate making more
        work for you later. That said, we on this group do realize that
        weeds are beneficial.

        You would be better off using a lasagne style gardening bed to
        achieve your goal in this because it interferes far less. If you do
        it starting as soon as you take the property, you should have
        marvelous soil and raised bed to plant in for the spring. It is
        sheet composting at its best. Sheet composting in this way gives
        more immediate benefit to the place that it is done. Heavy use of
        wheat straw on the soil over wet newspaper, or cardboard along with
        other layers should do the job well...or even the straw without the
        newspaper, or cardboard. You can smother out things very well with
        the straw bales.

        Do remember that raised beds work best in a climate that is not dry.
        If that area of Kansas is rather dry in the growing season, you would
        be better off not raising the beds. The reason is that, even though
        it is not always apparent to the gardener, the top inches of soil dry
        out faster in the heat than on level garden beds. We can water in
        the morning, and by night the plants are in stress. If you don't
        have much heat in the daytime, and the air is mostly humid, this is
        not a problem. Stressed plants invite insects to invade, as well as
        disease.

        If you take this advice, it would be a good idea to try to sow a
        winter cover crop on this bed. Choose the one best suited to your
        area.

        I noticed someone mentioned daikon radishes to help you break up the
        soil...haven't read the post, but I did see that much. They are a
        great tool.

        An alternative to wheat is the original wheat which does not contain
        the part of the wheat that you are allergic to. This is called
        Kamut. It is available in the US, though not as easy to find. The
        seed was brought to the US by a returning soldier to his father in
        Montana after WWII. It took a while to find a market here, but it is
        grown, though not in the numbers that wheat as we know it is. Do
        some research on it. You will find it is recommended for folksl with
        wheat allergies. There are many online recipe sources for kamut, so
        you could again enjoy things you thought you never would be able to
        eat.

        Fast growing trees produce weak wood. So....do temper that idea with
        that knowledge....that in storms you will have much breakage.
        Growing trees in groups instead of in groups of one will help the
        trees to grow more quickly. Science has proven that trees grow
        better together than alone....and that they do talk to each other in
        what they have labelled 'W' waves. What you can do is to plant some
        faster growing trees along with some that take a bit slower approach
        to life. That way you will insure you will still have trees after a
        storm....and not so many branches to clear. My ash trees grow rather
        quickly, but the oaks are slower. Still it is best to go for
        diversity, so plant them both. I just read an article that in Iowa
        oak trees are growing scarce because of the impact of quick growing
        trees on Nature itself...not just because they are what people there
        are planting. We forget that what we plant also impacts Nature as
        the birds, squirrels, etc, spread the seed from them.

        Also research how much water the trees you choose will use from the
        water table. Native trees are always the very best choice. Research
        what trees are native to that area....though I know Kansas is a state
        in which prairie grasses once grew. There are trees destroying the
        water table of the area they grow in because they are not native, but
        adapted trees from areas that have far more water and humidity
        available than Kansas does. Once removed the water table returns to
        normal. That is so important today when so many areas no longer have
        safe, drinkable water available. Don't kid yourself, with the
        droughts going on in the US, and elsewhere, this is very important.

        I hope that helps you some.

        Gloria, Texas
        US zone 8a....

        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Joy <smjlists@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi, I've been on the list for awhile - have been deeply inspired by
        > Fukuoka's books, and feel a sense of being "led" to this path of
        > farming/gardening. My friend, who owns the trailer in which we
        live,
        > has just bought land near Dennis Kansas, Zone 6 gardening I
        believe.
        > Closing won't be till maybe a month from now, so will probably be
        early
        > August before we are able to get the trailer moved onto the land -
        all
        > utilities are there, set up for us to get connected. Gradually
        over
        > next couple years Mike will be undergoing various building
        projects,
        > sheds, animal shelters, and finally a bermed home, built with
        > temperature moderating properties. We're hoping to become
        > self-sufficient and be able to function "off the grid" in a couple
        years.
        > There are about 8 acres, one of which is at present a
        landscaped "yard"
        > on which the trailer will sit. Soon there will be no grass being
        mown.
        > There is a built up pond behind the present homesite ( the home
        Mike
        > builds will be in Northwest, back left corner of the property).
        The
        > pond is part of an active watershed, water flowing across a path on
        the
        > property, mostly in ditch, but if heavy rain opens a little onto
        > surrounding earth. Water doesn't stand on the property at
        present,
        > but we're considering putting in
        > several different heighth drain pipes in the pond, which can be
        closed
        > or opened at will, allowing us to temporarily flood part of the
        land
        > behind the pond at will. I'm thinking of doing a fairly
        traditional
        > twice dug raised bed kitchen garden. I won't actually use boxes to
        > raise the beds, but dig ditches down into clay which underlies all
        the
        > earth here, build up raised beds with good soil dug out of the
        > paths/water canals.
        > Once built I won't be turning this soil further - will use mulch
        and
        > cover crops, but want to have producing veggie garden next year,
        and its
        > going to take time to get this land in good growing condition.
        > Plus, I like very much the idea of having paths through my herbs
        and
        > veggie beds, of never actually
        > walking on the growing bed, and having double use of the path for
        water
        > channel, letting water soak into
        > good soil and roots, rather than watering from top. Thinking of
        > building a side ditch off the main drainage system, with a water
        gate,
        > so I can make direct use of the watershed, directing some of it
        into my
        > garden path/water channels. The big portion of the land is
        west/left of
        > the pond. Probably 5-6 acres total, presently in hay, with
        drainage
        > ditch bisecting it - ditch comes in at back northeast corner, heads
        up
        > through front southwest corner into neighbor's property. The hay
        has
        > just been harvested. I'm trying to decide what if anything to do
        with
        > the land this year, and am so unsure about timing and what I can
        best
        > due this year yet. We're likely past the best of our spring rains
        > here. I could toss some seed before our closing, but if anything
        > happens, I'd hate to have lost the upfront cost of the seed. Soil
        has
        > been heavily used, and fertilized, and doesn't go deep, is clay
        through
        > much of it, and big stone slabs down about 4 feet throughout the
        > property. There are good but fairly young trees in place around
        and
        > spaced out directly behind the pond. Hay area wide open. I do
        want to
        > get some trees growing in there - any ideas of good
        > trees, fast growing, deep roots, that would grow well in this
        climate?
        > I won't be using tractor or tilling or mowing at all. Will do
        whatever
        > I do by hand and on foot, with scythe as needed. Wondering if
        there is
        > any advice about good cover crop for this area? One I could start
        in
        > late August or early September, over winter, to help stabalize and
        feed
        > the soil. May do nothing but cover crops and trees for a couple
        years
        > on the west field area (back of which will have the new house in a
        few
        > years). May do some grain production there - thinking of amaranth
        > and/or quinoa, plus possibly rice. My son and I can't eat wheat,
        could
        > use wheat as a cover crop, but not for harvest. Veggie garden in
        more
        > protected area on back of property, east of pond and trees, just
        south
        > of the drainage ditch. Any suggestions are more than welcome.
        Thanks, Joy
        >
        > >
        >
      • Gloria C. Baikauskas
        I don t know if Tim Peters is still a member of this group, but you might look into some of his seeds. He is a seed developer in Oregon. He has developed some
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 22, 2006
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          I don't know if Tim Peters is still a member of this group, but you
          might look into some of his seeds. He is a seed developer in Oregon.
          He has developed some perennial grains for one thing. He also has some
          radish seeds I bought to try instead of the daikons that grow to the
          size of bowling balls....a meal for one in one radish!

          His website is: http://www.pioneer-net.com/psr/index.html

          Gloria, Texas
        • Niels Corfield
          My money is firmly on NOT digging and not having raised beds. In fact I think it is important to think outside the beds and paths paradigm for structuring a
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 22, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            My money is firmly on NOT digging and not having raised beds.
            In fact I think it is important to think outside the beds and paths
            paradigm for structuring a garden.
            Because in fact we are creating ecosystems, in modern Western speak.
            On the smaller-scale we could call these plant-communities, or
            human-plant communities/polycultures.

            Please post again to the list the exact state of the area of land in
            question.
            And, if you will, state clearly your desired outcomes with the change of
            use.

            _Cover crops_ are listed in Natural Way of Farming.
            Sweet clover I would suggest sweet clover, meliltus alba, the biennial.
            Fast growing , biomass, feed. Careful of spoiling when making hay, it
            will contain coumarin.
            Although all green manures are good.
            The more variety the greater chance of stability overall.
            All the clovers, vetches, mustards, buckwheat, alfalfa, beans etc.
            _Trees_: alders, acacias, mesquite.

            _Re vegetation_
            Basically right across the site, from home to fence you basically want
            to introduce as many seeds/plants as possible.
            Spread seedballs all year.
            _Save seed_ from every fruit you buy or eat: apples, pumpkin, tomatoes
            (especially), anything that vines or sprawl will be a great one. etc.
            _Shop bought seed_ for example dried kidney beans. Buy them by the kilo
            and get them out there seedball massive.
            Any other cheap seed sold as food: sunflower etc.

            _Weed Cover_
            Please give detailed info about exisiting vegetation on your land.
            This will give pointers for seed and plant material sources.
            And help guide techniques for "change-of-use".

            _Water Management_
            It is always worth looking at doing a site survey.
            Finding the contours. This will help with site desgin and layout.
            Also do think about swales.

            Sounds great though.
            How about some photos?
            Maybe a Flickr account so we can keep up with the progress?

            All the best,
            Niels

            http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/
            http://del.icio.us/entrailer

            Gloria C. Baikauskas wrote:

            > What a great new start for the two of you!
            >
            > One big thing with Fukuoka's wisdom was to do as little as possible
            > to interfere with Nature. By double digging your raised beds you will
            > be massively interfering. You will also be bringing up weed seeds
            > from a place where they would not otherwise germinate making more
            > work for you later. That said, we on this group do realize that
            > weeds are beneficial.
            >
            > You would be better off using a lasagne style gardening bed to
            > achieve your goal in this because it interferes far less. If you do
            > it starting as soon as you take the property, you should have
            > marvelous soil and raised bed to plant in for the spring. It is
            > sheet composting at its best. Sheet composting in this way gives
            > more immediate benefit to the place that it is done. Heavy use of
            > wheat straw on the soil over wet newspaper, or cardboard along with
            > other layers should do the job well...or even the straw without the
            > newspaper, or cardboard. You can smother out things very well with
            > the straw bales.
            >
            > Do remember that raised beds work best in a climate that is not dry.
            > If that area of Kansas is rather dry in the growing season, you would
            > be better off not raising the beds. The reason is that, even though
            > it is not always apparent to the gardener, the top inches of soil dry
            > out faster in the heat than on level garden beds. We can water in
            > the morning, and by night the plants are in stress. If you don't
            > have much heat in the daytime, and the air is mostly humid, this is
            > not a problem. Stressed plants invite insects to invade, as well as
            > disease.
            >
            > If you take this advice, it would be a good idea to try to sow a
            > winter cover crop on this bed. Choose the one best suited to your
            > area.
            >
            > I noticed someone mentioned daikon radishes to help you break up the
            > soil...haven't read the post, but I did see that much. They are a
            > great tool.
            >
            > An alternative to wheat is the original wheat which does not contain
            > the part of the wheat that you are allergic to. This is called
            > Kamut. It is available in the US, though not as easy to find. The
            > seed was brought to the US by a returning soldier to his father in
            > Montana after WWII. It took a while to find a market here, but it is
            > grown, though not in the numbers that wheat as we know it is. Do
            > some research on it. You will find it is recommended for folksl with
            > wheat allergies. There are many online recipe sources for kamut, so
            > you could again enjoy things you thought you never would be able to
            > eat.
            >
            > Fast growing trees produce weak wood. So....do temper that idea with
            > that knowledge....that in storms you will have much breakage.
            > Growing trees in groups instead of in groups of one will help the
            > trees to grow more quickly. Science has proven that trees grow
            > better together than alone....and that they do talk to each other in
            > what they have labelled 'W' waves. What you can do is to plant some
            > faster growing trees along with some that take a bit slower approach
            > to life. That way you will insure you will still have trees after a
            > storm....and not so many branches to clear. My ash trees grow rather
            > quickly, but the oaks are slower. Still it is best to go for
            > diversity, so plant them both. I just read an article that in Iowa
            > oak trees are growing scarce because of the impact of quick growing
            > trees on Nature itself...not just because they are what people there
            > are planting. We forget that what we plant also impacts Nature as
            > the birds, squirrels, etc, spread the seed from them.
            >
            > Also research how much water the trees you choose will use from the
            > water table. Native trees are always the very best choice. Research
            > what trees are native to that area....though I know Kansas is a state
            > in which prairie grasses once grew. There are trees destroying the
            > water table of the area they grow in because they are not native, but
            > adapted trees from areas that have far more water and humidity
            > available than Kansas does. Once removed the water table returns to
            > normal. That is so important today when so many areas no longer have
            > safe, drinkable water available. Don't kid yourself, with the
            > droughts going on in the US, and elsewhere, this is very important.
            >
            > I hope that helps you some.
            >
            > Gloria, Texas
            > US zone 8a....
            >
            > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>, Joy <smjlists@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Hi, I've been on the list for awhile - have been deeply inspired by
            > > Fukuoka's books, and feel a sense of being "led" to this path of
            > > farming/gardening. My friend, who owns the trailer in which we
            > live,
            > > has just bought land near Dennis Kansas, Zone 6 gardening I
            > believe.
            > > Closing won't be till maybe a month from now, so will probably be
            > early
            > > August before we are able to get the trailer moved onto the land -
            > all
            > > utilities are there, set up for us to get connected. Gradually
            > over
            > > next couple years Mike will be undergoing various building
            > projects,
            > > sheds, animal shelters, and finally a bermed home, built with
            > > temperature moderating properties. We're hoping to become
            > > self-sufficient and be able to function "off the grid" in a couple
            > years.
            > > There are about 8 acres, one of which is at present a
            > landscaped "yard"
            > > on which the trailer will sit. Soon there will be no grass being
            > mown.
            > > There is a built up pond behind the present homesite ( the home
            > Mike
            > > builds will be in Northwest, back left corner of the property).
            > The
            > > pond is part of an active watershed, water flowing across a path on
            > the
            > > property, mostly in ditch, but if heavy rain opens a little onto
            > > surrounding earth. Water doesn't stand on the property at
            > present,
            > > but we're considering putting in
            > > several different heighth drain pipes in the pond, which can be
            > closed
            > > or opened at will, allowing us to temporarily flood part of the
            > land
            > > behind the pond at will. I'm thinking of doing a fairly
            > traditional
            > > twice dug raised bed kitchen garden. I won't actually use boxes to
            > > raise the beds, but dig ditches down into clay which underlies all
            > the
            > > earth here, build up raised beds with good soil dug out of the
            > > paths/water canals.
            > > Once built I won't be turning this soil further - will use mulch
            > and
            > > cover crops, but want to have producing veggie garden next year,
            > and its
            > > going to take time to get this land in good growing condition.
            > > Plus, I like very much the idea of having paths through my herbs
            > and
            > > veggie beds, of never actually
            > > walking on the growing bed, and having double use of the path for
            > water
            > > channel, letting water soak into
            > > good soil and roots, rather than watering from top. Thinking of
            > > building a side ditch off the main drainage system, with a water
            > gate,
            > > so I can make direct use of the watershed, directing some of it
            > into my
            > > garden path/water channels. The big portion of the land is
            > west/left of
            > > the pond. Probably 5-6 acres total, presently in hay, with
            > drainage
            > > ditch bisecting it - ditch comes in at back northeast corner, heads
            > up
            > > through front southwest corner into neighbor's property. The hay
            > has
            > > just been harvested. I'm trying to decide what if anything to do
            > with
            > > the land this year, and am so unsure about timing and what I can
            > best
            > > due this year yet. We're likely past the best of our spring rains
            > > here. I could toss some seed before our closing, but if anything
            > > happens, I'd hate to have lost the upfront cost of the seed. Soil
            > has
            > > been heavily used, and fertilized, and doesn't go deep, is clay
            > through
            > > much of it, and big stone slabs down about 4 feet throughout the
            > > property. There are good but fairly young trees in place around
            > and
            > > spaced out directly behind the pond. Hay area wide open. I do
            > want to
            > > get some trees growing in there - any ideas of good
            > > trees, fast growing, deep roots, that would grow well in this
            > climate?
            > > I won't be using tractor or tilling or mowing at all. Will do
            > whatever
            > > I do by hand and on foot, with scythe as needed. Wondering if
            > there is
            > > any advice about good cover crop for this area? One I could start
            > in
            > > late August or early September, over winter, to help stabalize and
            > feed
            > > the soil. May do nothing but cover crops and trees for a couple
            > years
            > > on the west field area (back of which will have the new house in a
            > few
            > > years). May do some grain production there - thinking of amaranth
            > > and/or quinoa, plus possibly rice. My son and I can't eat wheat,
            > could
            > > use wheat as a cover crop, but not for harvest. Veggie garden in
            > more
            > > protected area on back of property, east of pond and trees, just
            > south
            > > of the drainage ditch. Any suggestions are more than welcome.
            > Thanks, Joy
            > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
            >
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