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Re: starting new no-till project in SE Kansas, USA

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  • Jeff
    Congradulations.... Sounds like a fun but challenging place to live. I know peacans grow good there.... Oaks do too, if you are into acorn flour... with
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 17, 2006
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      Congradulations....
      Sounds like a fun but challenging place to live.


      I know peacans grow good there....
      Oaks do too, if you are into acorn flour...

      with irrigation... peaches, apples, pears, etc...
      with zone 6.. in Kansas your limiting factor will be the water
      supply for the first 8-10 years

      You should also look up the Land Institute in Salina Kansas
      They are working with perrenial crop development.
      Of primary interest for you would
      probably be their wort with perrenial sorguhm and Illionois
      Bundleflower (legume-lentil sized seeds)

      Sorguhm is grown commerically in small scale in kansas as well
      (annual)

      Something that may be worth looking into is
      Buffalo Gourd, it is a perrenial cubrite naitive to the area, found
      on waste areas.. although the fruit is EXTREMELy bitter and
      inedible, some people have reported decent yeilds by processing for
      the seeds inside, high protein, high oil....

      Sunflowers also do well in Kansas.... .. I"m not sure how effective
      seedballs are in planting/germination with sunflowers, but again
      this could be something to experiment with

      with enough water (LOTS AND LOTS), or a drought resistant variety
      (try heirloom from NM-AZ..) Corn would be good,.. zuni tribe has
      brought back traditional farming methods and have been averaging 40
      bu/acre in high desert with no irrigation.


      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Joy <smjlists@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hi, I've been on the list for awhile - have been deeply inspired
      by
      > Fukuoka's books, and feel a sense of being "led" to this path of
      > farming/gardening. My friend, who owns the trailer in which we
      live,
      > has just bought land near Dennis Kansas, Zone 6 gardening I
      believe.
      > Closing won't be till maybe a month from now, so will probably be
      early
      > August before we are able to get the trailer moved onto the land -
      all
      > utilities are there, set up for us to get connected. Gradually
      over
      > next couple years Mike will be undergoing various building
      projects,
      > sheds, animal shelters, and finally a bermed home, built with
      > temperature moderating properties. We're hoping to become
      > self-sufficient and be able to function "off the grid" in a couple
      years.
      > There are about 8 acres, one of which is at present a
      landscaped "yard"
      > on which the trailer will sit. Soon there will be no grass being
      mown.
      > There is a built up pond behind the present homesite ( the home
      Mike
      > builds will be in Northwest, back left corner of the property).
      The
      > pond is part of an active watershed, water flowing across a path
      on the
      > property, mostly in ditch, but if heavy rain opens a little onto
      > surrounding earth. Water doesn't stand on the property at
      present,
      > but we're considering putting in
      > several different heighth drain pipes in the pond, which can be
      closed
      > or opened at will, allowing us to temporarily flood part of the
      land
      > behind the pond at will. I'm thinking of doing a fairly
      traditional
      > twice dug raised bed kitchen garden. I won't actually use boxes
      to
      > raise the beds, but dig ditches down into clay which underlies all
      the
      > earth here, build up raised beds with good soil dug out of the
      > paths/water canals.
      > Once built I won't be turning this soil further - will use mulch
      and
      > cover crops, but want to have producing veggie garden next year,
      and its
      > going to take time to get this land in good growing condition.
      > Plus, I like very much the idea of having paths through my herbs
      and
      > veggie beds, of never actually
      > walking on the growing bed, and having double use of the path for
      water
      > channel, letting water soak into
      > good soil and roots, rather than watering from top. Thinking of
      > building a side ditch off the main drainage system, with a water
      gate,
      > so I can make direct use of the watershed, directing some of it
      into my
      > garden path/water channels. The big portion of the land is
      west/left of
      > the pond. Probably 5-6 acres total, presently in hay, with
      drainage
      > ditch bisecting it - ditch comes in at back northeast corner,
      heads up
      > through front southwest corner into neighbor's property. The hay
      has
      > just been harvested. I'm trying to decide what if anything to do
      with
      > the land this year, and am so unsure about timing and what I can
      best
      > due this year yet. We're likely past the best of our spring rains
      > here. I could toss some seed before our closing, but if anything
      > happens, I'd hate to have lost the upfront cost of the seed. Soil
      has
      > been heavily used, and fertilized, and doesn't go deep, is clay
      through
      > much of it, and big stone slabs down about 4 feet throughout the
      > property. There are good but fairly young trees in place around
      and
      > spaced out directly behind the pond. Hay area wide open. I do
      want to
      > get some trees growing in there - any ideas of good
      > trees, fast growing, deep roots, that would grow well in this
      climate?
      > I won't be using tractor or tilling or mowing at all. Will do
      whatever
      > I do by hand and on foot, with scythe as needed. Wondering if
      there is
      > any advice about good cover crop for this area? One I could start
      in
      > late August or early September, over winter, to help stabalize and
      feed
      > the soil. May do nothing but cover crops and trees for a couple
      years
      > on the west field area (back of which will have the new house in a
      few
      > years). May do some grain production there - thinking of amaranth
      > and/or quinoa, plus possibly rice. My son and I can't eat wheat,
      could
      > use wheat as a cover crop, but not for harvest. Veggie garden in
      more
      > protected area on back of property, east of pond and trees, just
      south
      > of the drainage ditch. Any suggestions are more than welcome.
      Thanks, Joy
      >
      > >
      >
    • BT Benjaminson
      Daikon radishes sound like they may be worth sowing in the early fall. These are very strong to break up hard clay soil. Good ones can go down 1 - 2 feet.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 18, 2006
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        Daikon radishes sound like they may be worth sowing in the early fall. These are very strong to break up hard clay soil. Good ones can go down 1 - 2 feet.
        Bat-Tzion
        Negev, Israel


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Gloria C. Baikauskas
        What a great new start for the two of you! One big thing with Fukuoka s wisdom was to do as little as possible to interfere with Nature. By double digging your
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 22, 2006
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          What a great new start for the two of you!

          One big thing with Fukuoka's wisdom was to do as little as possible
          to interfere with Nature. By double digging your raised beds you will
          be massively interfering. You will also be bringing up weed seeds
          from a place where they would not otherwise germinate making more
          work for you later. That said, we on this group do realize that
          weeds are beneficial.

          You would be better off using a lasagne style gardening bed to
          achieve your goal in this because it interferes far less. If you do
          it starting as soon as you take the property, you should have
          marvelous soil and raised bed to plant in for the spring. It is
          sheet composting at its best. Sheet composting in this way gives
          more immediate benefit to the place that it is done. Heavy use of
          wheat straw on the soil over wet newspaper, or cardboard along with
          other layers should do the job well...or even the straw without the
          newspaper, or cardboard. You can smother out things very well with
          the straw bales.

          Do remember that raised beds work best in a climate that is not dry.
          If that area of Kansas is rather dry in the growing season, you would
          be better off not raising the beds. The reason is that, even though
          it is not always apparent to the gardener, the top inches of soil dry
          out faster in the heat than on level garden beds. We can water in
          the morning, and by night the plants are in stress. If you don't
          have much heat in the daytime, and the air is mostly humid, this is
          not a problem. Stressed plants invite insects to invade, as well as
          disease.

          If you take this advice, it would be a good idea to try to sow a
          winter cover crop on this bed. Choose the one best suited to your
          area.

          I noticed someone mentioned daikon radishes to help you break up the
          soil...haven't read the post, but I did see that much. They are a
          great tool.

          An alternative to wheat is the original wheat which does not contain
          the part of the wheat that you are allergic to. This is called
          Kamut. It is available in the US, though not as easy to find. The
          seed was brought to the US by a returning soldier to his father in
          Montana after WWII. It took a while to find a market here, but it is
          grown, though not in the numbers that wheat as we know it is. Do
          some research on it. You will find it is recommended for folksl with
          wheat allergies. There are many online recipe sources for kamut, so
          you could again enjoy things you thought you never would be able to
          eat.

          Fast growing trees produce weak wood. So....do temper that idea with
          that knowledge....that in storms you will have much breakage.
          Growing trees in groups instead of in groups of one will help the
          trees to grow more quickly. Science has proven that trees grow
          better together than alone....and that they do talk to each other in
          what they have labelled 'W' waves. What you can do is to plant some
          faster growing trees along with some that take a bit slower approach
          to life. That way you will insure you will still have trees after a
          storm....and not so many branches to clear. My ash trees grow rather
          quickly, but the oaks are slower. Still it is best to go for
          diversity, so plant them both. I just read an article that in Iowa
          oak trees are growing scarce because of the impact of quick growing
          trees on Nature itself...not just because they are what people there
          are planting. We forget that what we plant also impacts Nature as
          the birds, squirrels, etc, spread the seed from them.

          Also research how much water the trees you choose will use from the
          water table. Native trees are always the very best choice. Research
          what trees are native to that area....though I know Kansas is a state
          in which prairie grasses once grew. There are trees destroying the
          water table of the area they grow in because they are not native, but
          adapted trees from areas that have far more water and humidity
          available than Kansas does. Once removed the water table returns to
          normal. That is so important today when so many areas no longer have
          safe, drinkable water available. Don't kid yourself, with the
          droughts going on in the US, and elsewhere, this is very important.

          I hope that helps you some.

          Gloria, Texas
          US zone 8a....

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Joy <smjlists@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Hi, I've been on the list for awhile - have been deeply inspired by
          > Fukuoka's books, and feel a sense of being "led" to this path of
          > farming/gardening. My friend, who owns the trailer in which we
          live,
          > has just bought land near Dennis Kansas, Zone 6 gardening I
          believe.
          > Closing won't be till maybe a month from now, so will probably be
          early
          > August before we are able to get the trailer moved onto the land -
          all
          > utilities are there, set up for us to get connected. Gradually
          over
          > next couple years Mike will be undergoing various building
          projects,
          > sheds, animal shelters, and finally a bermed home, built with
          > temperature moderating properties. We're hoping to become
          > self-sufficient and be able to function "off the grid" in a couple
          years.
          > There are about 8 acres, one of which is at present a
          landscaped "yard"
          > on which the trailer will sit. Soon there will be no grass being
          mown.
          > There is a built up pond behind the present homesite ( the home
          Mike
          > builds will be in Northwest, back left corner of the property).
          The
          > pond is part of an active watershed, water flowing across a path on
          the
          > property, mostly in ditch, but if heavy rain opens a little onto
          > surrounding earth. Water doesn't stand on the property at
          present,
          > but we're considering putting in
          > several different heighth drain pipes in the pond, which can be
          closed
          > or opened at will, allowing us to temporarily flood part of the
          land
          > behind the pond at will. I'm thinking of doing a fairly
          traditional
          > twice dug raised bed kitchen garden. I won't actually use boxes to
          > raise the beds, but dig ditches down into clay which underlies all
          the
          > earth here, build up raised beds with good soil dug out of the
          > paths/water canals.
          > Once built I won't be turning this soil further - will use mulch
          and
          > cover crops, but want to have producing veggie garden next year,
          and its
          > going to take time to get this land in good growing condition.
          > Plus, I like very much the idea of having paths through my herbs
          and
          > veggie beds, of never actually
          > walking on the growing bed, and having double use of the path for
          water
          > channel, letting water soak into
          > good soil and roots, rather than watering from top. Thinking of
          > building a side ditch off the main drainage system, with a water
          gate,
          > so I can make direct use of the watershed, directing some of it
          into my
          > garden path/water channels. The big portion of the land is
          west/left of
          > the pond. Probably 5-6 acres total, presently in hay, with
          drainage
          > ditch bisecting it - ditch comes in at back northeast corner, heads
          up
          > through front southwest corner into neighbor's property. The hay
          has
          > just been harvested. I'm trying to decide what if anything to do
          with
          > the land this year, and am so unsure about timing and what I can
          best
          > due this year yet. We're likely past the best of our spring rains
          > here. I could toss some seed before our closing, but if anything
          > happens, I'd hate to have lost the upfront cost of the seed. Soil
          has
          > been heavily used, and fertilized, and doesn't go deep, is clay
          through
          > much of it, and big stone slabs down about 4 feet throughout the
          > property. There are good but fairly young trees in place around
          and
          > spaced out directly behind the pond. Hay area wide open. I do
          want to
          > get some trees growing in there - any ideas of good
          > trees, fast growing, deep roots, that would grow well in this
          climate?
          > I won't be using tractor or tilling or mowing at all. Will do
          whatever
          > I do by hand and on foot, with scythe as needed. Wondering if
          there is
          > any advice about good cover crop for this area? One I could start
          in
          > late August or early September, over winter, to help stabalize and
          feed
          > the soil. May do nothing but cover crops and trees for a couple
          years
          > on the west field area (back of which will have the new house in a
          few
          > years). May do some grain production there - thinking of amaranth
          > and/or quinoa, plus possibly rice. My son and I can't eat wheat,
          could
          > use wheat as a cover crop, but not for harvest. Veggie garden in
          more
          > protected area on back of property, east of pond and trees, just
          south
          > of the drainage ditch. Any suggestions are more than welcome.
          Thanks, Joy
          >
          > >
          >
        • Gloria C. Baikauskas
          I don t know if Tim Peters is still a member of this group, but you might look into some of his seeds. He is a seed developer in Oregon. He has developed some
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 22, 2006
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            I don't know if Tim Peters is still a member of this group, but you
            might look into some of his seeds. He is a seed developer in Oregon.
            He has developed some perennial grains for one thing. He also has some
            radish seeds I bought to try instead of the daikons that grow to the
            size of bowling balls....a meal for one in one radish!

            His website is: http://www.pioneer-net.com/psr/index.html

            Gloria, Texas
          • Niels Corfield
            My money is firmly on NOT digging and not having raised beds. In fact I think it is important to think outside the beds and paths paradigm for structuring a
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 22, 2006
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              My money is firmly on NOT digging and not having raised beds.
              In fact I think it is important to think outside the beds and paths
              paradigm for structuring a garden.
              Because in fact we are creating ecosystems, in modern Western speak.
              On the smaller-scale we could call these plant-communities, or
              human-plant communities/polycultures.

              Please post again to the list the exact state of the area of land in
              question.
              And, if you will, state clearly your desired outcomes with the change of
              use.

              _Cover crops_ are listed in Natural Way of Farming.
              Sweet clover I would suggest sweet clover, meliltus alba, the biennial.
              Fast growing , biomass, feed. Careful of spoiling when making hay, it
              will contain coumarin.
              Although all green manures are good.
              The more variety the greater chance of stability overall.
              All the clovers, vetches, mustards, buckwheat, alfalfa, beans etc.
              _Trees_: alders, acacias, mesquite.

              _Re vegetation_
              Basically right across the site, from home to fence you basically want
              to introduce as many seeds/plants as possible.
              Spread seedballs all year.
              _Save seed_ from every fruit you buy or eat: apples, pumpkin, tomatoes
              (especially), anything that vines or sprawl will be a great one. etc.
              _Shop bought seed_ for example dried kidney beans. Buy them by the kilo
              and get them out there seedball massive.
              Any other cheap seed sold as food: sunflower etc.

              _Weed Cover_
              Please give detailed info about exisiting vegetation on your land.
              This will give pointers for seed and plant material sources.
              And help guide techniques for "change-of-use".

              _Water Management_
              It is always worth looking at doing a site survey.
              Finding the contours. This will help with site desgin and layout.
              Also do think about swales.

              Sounds great though.
              How about some photos?
              Maybe a Flickr account so we can keep up with the progress?

              All the best,
              Niels

              http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/
              http://del.icio.us/entrailer

              Gloria C. Baikauskas wrote:

              > What a great new start for the two of you!
              >
              > One big thing with Fukuoka's wisdom was to do as little as possible
              > to interfere with Nature. By double digging your raised beds you will
              > be massively interfering. You will also be bringing up weed seeds
              > from a place where they would not otherwise germinate making more
              > work for you later. That said, we on this group do realize that
              > weeds are beneficial.
              >
              > You would be better off using a lasagne style gardening bed to
              > achieve your goal in this because it interferes far less. If you do
              > it starting as soon as you take the property, you should have
              > marvelous soil and raised bed to plant in for the spring. It is
              > sheet composting at its best. Sheet composting in this way gives
              > more immediate benefit to the place that it is done. Heavy use of
              > wheat straw on the soil over wet newspaper, or cardboard along with
              > other layers should do the job well...or even the straw without the
              > newspaper, or cardboard. You can smother out things very well with
              > the straw bales.
              >
              > Do remember that raised beds work best in a climate that is not dry.
              > If that area of Kansas is rather dry in the growing season, you would
              > be better off not raising the beds. The reason is that, even though
              > it is not always apparent to the gardener, the top inches of soil dry
              > out faster in the heat than on level garden beds. We can water in
              > the morning, and by night the plants are in stress. If you don't
              > have much heat in the daytime, and the air is mostly humid, this is
              > not a problem. Stressed plants invite insects to invade, as well as
              > disease.
              >
              > If you take this advice, it would be a good idea to try to sow a
              > winter cover crop on this bed. Choose the one best suited to your
              > area.
              >
              > I noticed someone mentioned daikon radishes to help you break up the
              > soil...haven't read the post, but I did see that much. They are a
              > great tool.
              >
              > An alternative to wheat is the original wheat which does not contain
              > the part of the wheat that you are allergic to. This is called
              > Kamut. It is available in the US, though not as easy to find. The
              > seed was brought to the US by a returning soldier to his father in
              > Montana after WWII. It took a while to find a market here, but it is
              > grown, though not in the numbers that wheat as we know it is. Do
              > some research on it. You will find it is recommended for folksl with
              > wheat allergies. There are many online recipe sources for kamut, so
              > you could again enjoy things you thought you never would be able to
              > eat.
              >
              > Fast growing trees produce weak wood. So....do temper that idea with
              > that knowledge....that in storms you will have much breakage.
              > Growing trees in groups instead of in groups of one will help the
              > trees to grow more quickly. Science has proven that trees grow
              > better together than alone....and that they do talk to each other in
              > what they have labelled 'W' waves. What you can do is to plant some
              > faster growing trees along with some that take a bit slower approach
              > to life. That way you will insure you will still have trees after a
              > storm....and not so many branches to clear. My ash trees grow rather
              > quickly, but the oaks are slower. Still it is best to go for
              > diversity, so plant them both. I just read an article that in Iowa
              > oak trees are growing scarce because of the impact of quick growing
              > trees on Nature itself...not just because they are what people there
              > are planting. We forget that what we plant also impacts Nature as
              > the birds, squirrels, etc, spread the seed from them.
              >
              > Also research how much water the trees you choose will use from the
              > water table. Native trees are always the very best choice. Research
              > what trees are native to that area....though I know Kansas is a state
              > in which prairie grasses once grew. There are trees destroying the
              > water table of the area they grow in because they are not native, but
              > adapted trees from areas that have far more water and humidity
              > available than Kansas does. Once removed the water table returns to
              > normal. That is so important today when so many areas no longer have
              > safe, drinkable water available. Don't kid yourself, with the
              > droughts going on in the US, and elsewhere, this is very important.
              >
              > I hope that helps you some.
              >
              > Gloria, Texas
              > US zone 8a....
              >
              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
              > <mailto:fukuoka_farming%40yahoogroups.com>, Joy <smjlists@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Hi, I've been on the list for awhile - have been deeply inspired by
              > > Fukuoka's books, and feel a sense of being "led" to this path of
              > > farming/gardening. My friend, who owns the trailer in which we
              > live,
              > > has just bought land near Dennis Kansas, Zone 6 gardening I
              > believe.
              > > Closing won't be till maybe a month from now, so will probably be
              > early
              > > August before we are able to get the trailer moved onto the land -
              > all
              > > utilities are there, set up for us to get connected. Gradually
              > over
              > > next couple years Mike will be undergoing various building
              > projects,
              > > sheds, animal shelters, and finally a bermed home, built with
              > > temperature moderating properties. We're hoping to become
              > > self-sufficient and be able to function "off the grid" in a couple
              > years.
              > > There are about 8 acres, one of which is at present a
              > landscaped "yard"
              > > on which the trailer will sit. Soon there will be no grass being
              > mown.
              > > There is a built up pond behind the present homesite ( the home
              > Mike
              > > builds will be in Northwest, back left corner of the property).
              > The
              > > pond is part of an active watershed, water flowing across a path on
              > the
              > > property, mostly in ditch, but if heavy rain opens a little onto
              > > surrounding earth. Water doesn't stand on the property at
              > present,
              > > but we're considering putting in
              > > several different heighth drain pipes in the pond, which can be
              > closed
              > > or opened at will, allowing us to temporarily flood part of the
              > land
              > > behind the pond at will. I'm thinking of doing a fairly
              > traditional
              > > twice dug raised bed kitchen garden. I won't actually use boxes to
              > > raise the beds, but dig ditches down into clay which underlies all
              > the
              > > earth here, build up raised beds with good soil dug out of the
              > > paths/water canals.
              > > Once built I won't be turning this soil further - will use mulch
              > and
              > > cover crops, but want to have producing veggie garden next year,
              > and its
              > > going to take time to get this land in good growing condition.
              > > Plus, I like very much the idea of having paths through my herbs
              > and
              > > veggie beds, of never actually
              > > walking on the growing bed, and having double use of the path for
              > water
              > > channel, letting water soak into
              > > good soil and roots, rather than watering from top. Thinking of
              > > building a side ditch off the main drainage system, with a water
              > gate,
              > > so I can make direct use of the watershed, directing some of it
              > into my
              > > garden path/water channels. The big portion of the land is
              > west/left of
              > > the pond. Probably 5-6 acres total, presently in hay, with
              > drainage
              > > ditch bisecting it - ditch comes in at back northeast corner, heads
              > up
              > > through front southwest corner into neighbor's property. The hay
              > has
              > > just been harvested. I'm trying to decide what if anything to do
              > with
              > > the land this year, and am so unsure about timing and what I can
              > best
              > > due this year yet. We're likely past the best of our spring rains
              > > here. I could toss some seed before our closing, but if anything
              > > happens, I'd hate to have lost the upfront cost of the seed. Soil
              > has
              > > been heavily used, and fertilized, and doesn't go deep, is clay
              > through
              > > much of it, and big stone slabs down about 4 feet throughout the
              > > property. There are good but fairly young trees in place around
              > and
              > > spaced out directly behind the pond. Hay area wide open. I do
              > want to
              > > get some trees growing in there - any ideas of good
              > > trees, fast growing, deep roots, that would grow well in this
              > climate?
              > > I won't be using tractor or tilling or mowing at all. Will do
              > whatever
              > > I do by hand and on foot, with scythe as needed. Wondering if
              > there is
              > > any advice about good cover crop for this area? One I could start
              > in
              > > late August or early September, over winter, to help stabalize and
              > feed
              > > the soil. May do nothing but cover crops and trees for a couple
              > years
              > > on the west field area (back of which will have the new house in a
              > few
              > > years). May do some grain production there - thinking of amaranth
              > > and/or quinoa, plus possibly rice. My son and I can't eat wheat,
              > could
              > > use wheat as a cover crop, but not for harvest. Veggie garden in
              > more
              > > protected area on back of property, east of pond and trees, just
              > south
              > > of the drainage ditch. Any suggestions are more than welcome.
              > Thanks, Joy
              > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              >
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