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Re: COVER CROP

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  • poojyum
    Dear Rajuji (and other list members), Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow
    Message 1 of 15 , May 9, 2006
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      Dear Rajuji (and other list members),

      Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when
      the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow fast and my seed
      doesnt seem to germinate. If I leave it like that wont the grass/weeds
      shade my seeds? What should I do? Be patient? Or keep cutting back the
      weeds/grass? Thats too much work :(

      The other problem is many seedlings get attacked by snails, slugs,
      pigeons or mice. Just as it is happy to see a seedling sprout, its
      equally sad to see it taken away. My neighbours put netting around the
      seedling to prevent these 'pests'. And its working. They have a row of
      healthy looking runner bean seedlings. While mine is devoured. But it
      is like growing crops in a jail! I dont want to do that. But it is
      hard to hope that nature will balance all this. How to deal with this
      disappointment? Do you have any suggestions. My way of coping with
      this is to sow another seed.

      Thanks.
      SJ
    • Steven McCollough
      SJ, If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering from the same fate. If you put your seedlings in an area with no other growing
      Message 2 of 15 , May 9, 2006
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        SJ,

        If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering
        from the same fate. If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
        growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant just what
        you need, that's not sharing with nature.

        If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with other
        plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you need
        there will be some left for you. If you plant from seedballs they will
        be protected until they get started. If you plant into a standing crop
        and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off from the
        increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that cut crop
        back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally protected.

        The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time following the
        right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't expect
        success every time and be prepared to have little success at first and
        more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard when you
        have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to eat your
        plants after all that work.

        Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I suspect
        he had the same problems.

        Steve

        poojyum wrote:

        >Dear Rajuji (and other list members),
        >
        >Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when
        >the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow fast and my seed
        >doesnt seem to germinate. If I leave it like that wont the grass/weeds
        >shade my seeds? What should I do? Be patient? Or keep cutting back the
        >weeds/grass? Thats too much work :(
        >
        >The other problem is many seedlings get attacked by snails, slugs,
        >pigeons or mice. Just as it is happy to see a seedling sprout, its
        >equally sad to see it taken away. My neighbours put netting around the
        >seedling to prevent these 'pests'. And its working. They have a row of
        >healthy looking runner bean seedlings. While mine is devoured. But it
        >is like growing crops in a jail! I dont want to do that. But it is
        >hard to hope that nature will balance all this. How to deal with this
        >disappointment? Do you have any suggestions. My way of coping with
        >this is to sow another seed.
        >
        >Thanks.
        >SJ
        >
      • poojyum
        Hello Steve, Thank you for suggestions. ... I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and there. ... My plot is full of so called weeds .
        Message 3 of 15 , May 10, 2006
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          Hello Steve,

          Thank you for suggestions.

          > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering
          > from the same fate.

          I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and there.

          >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
          > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant just
          >what
          > you need, that's not sharing with nature.

          >
          > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with other
          > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
          >need there will be some left for you.

          My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had dug
          due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
          that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area my
          seedlings are thriving!

          I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many seeds I
          sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
          here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
          today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes but
          it seems they are there only because they have not been found by the
          'pests' yet!

          >If you plant from seedballs they will
          > be protected until they get started.

          With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the right
          clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the tracks I
          cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a couple
          lettuce from seedballs.

          >If you plant into a standing crop
          > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off from the
          > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that cut crop
          > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally protected.

          When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow. If I
          was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
          back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.

          >
          > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time following the
          > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't expect
          > success every time and be prepared to have little success at first and
          > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard when you
          > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to eat your
          > plants after all that work.
          >
          > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I suspect
          > he had the same problems.
          >
          > Steve

          Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
        • torskel87
          Hello everyone This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let this occur
          Message 4 of 15 , May 10, 2006
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            Hello everyone
            This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
            plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
            this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
            (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
            be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
            Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
            Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
            not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
            daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
            seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
            other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
            ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
            completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
            eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
            mixed seed in a natural way .???
            Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
            hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
            really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
            them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
            walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
            allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
            humidity, somebody has experience with this.???
            Any advice will be helpfull
            Thanks
            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Hello Steve,
            >
            > Thank you for suggestions.
            >
            > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
            suffering
            > > from the same fate.
            >
            > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
            there.
            >
            > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
            > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
            just
            > >what
            > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
            >
            > >
            > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
            other
            > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
            > >need there will be some left for you.
            >
            > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
            dug
            > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
            > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
            my
            > seedlings are thriving!
            >
            > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
            seeds I
            > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
            > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
            > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
            but
            > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
            the
            > 'pests' yet!
            >
            > >If you plant from seedballs they will
            > > be protected until they get started.
            >
            > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
            right
            > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
            tracks I
            > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
            couple
            > lettuce from seedballs.
            >
            > >If you plant into a standing crop
            > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
            from the
            > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
            cut crop
            > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
            protected.
            >
            > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
            If I
            > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
            > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
            >
            > >
            > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
            following the
            > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
            expect
            > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
            first and
            > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
            when you
            > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
            eat your
            > > plants after all that work.
            > >
            > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
            suspect
            > > he had the same problems.
            > >
            > > Steve
            >
            > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
            >
          • Niels Corfield
            ... * Seed Saving and varietal purity* A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few of them in one place, doesn t matter where but
            Message 5 of 15 , Jun 9, 2006
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              torskel87 wrote:

              > Hello everyone
              > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
              > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
              > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
              > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
              > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
              > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
              > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
              > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
              > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
              > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
              > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
              > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
              > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
              > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
              > mixed seed in a natural way .???

              *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
              A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few
              of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
              with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off these
              plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have not
              done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
              (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
              At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
              whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
              excluded_. This last point is key.
              This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for our
              needs.
              _HSL website:_
              http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php


              Another method is to hand-pollinate.
              Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
              other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
              can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to another.
              At this point I will ask a question of the group.
              Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on the
              same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transfering
              pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
              it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
              Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are hand-pollinating
              _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.

              __
              _

              > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
              > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
              > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
              > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
              > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
              > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
              > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???

              *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
              *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
              have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
              labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
              Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
              (tilling, cultivating or removing vegitative cover) you will not have a
              major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
              language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil" rather
              than preventing /soil erosion/.
              "doing" options include:
              -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
              contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
              -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
              intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
              lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
              -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
              be called "alley cropping".
              -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
              mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.

              _
              Links_
              Vetiver
              http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
              www.vetiver.com

              Alleycropping
              http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
              http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping

              Maize-Mucuna
              http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
              http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

              Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
              http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
              *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
              It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
              the contours are.
              For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
              permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
              It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
              to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
              You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
              might build a terrace.

              Anyone know any other good resrouces for swales and surveying?
              Particularly from the permaculture list.

              *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
              Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
              them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
              different intervals.
              It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
              "strip" and plant them into a swale.
              _Greening the Desert
              http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
              side with the above title)
              _
              _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
              the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
              Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
              Or combinations there of.
              Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
              along the length.

              There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
              But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
              with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
              few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
              cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.

              *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
              It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
              available and what is native in your local area.
              Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
              And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
              _CLimate
              _What is your regional climate?
              Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
              frequent is rainfall?
              _Vegetation_
              What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
              Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
              perrenially.
              _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
              Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
              Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
              be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
              _Trees and Fertility_
              What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
              freely available? To buy or gather?
              These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
              especially in an upland situation.
              Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
              are better. And hopefully more available
              _Resources_
              How many people can you count on to work on your project?
              What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
              can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
              labour-force is not available, or needed?
              For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
              with just 2 people.
              How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
              gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
              neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?



              *Some things to Remember*

              _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
              So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
              the field.

              _Marking Swales/Contours_
              Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
              swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
              If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
              I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
              placement is appropriate in the first phase.
              Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
              the slope would be better than none.

              When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation networks
              for further advice.

              All the best,
              Niels
              http://del.icio.us/entrailer
              http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
              http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



              > Any advice will be helpfull
              > Thanks
              > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Hello Steve,
              > >
              > > Thank you for suggestions.
              > >
              > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
              > suffering
              > > > from the same fate.
              > >
              > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
              > there.
              > >
              > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
              > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
              > just
              > > >what
              > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
              > other
              > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
              > > >need there will be some left for you.
              > >
              > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
              > dug
              > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
              > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
              > my
              > > seedlings are thriving!
              > >
              > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
              > seeds I
              > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
              > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
              > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
              > but
              > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
              > the
              > > 'pests' yet!
              > >
              > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
              > > > be protected until they get started.
              > >
              > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
              > right
              > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
              > tracks I
              > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
              > couple
              > > lettuce from seedballs.
              > >
              > > >If you plant into a standing crop
              > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
              > from the
              > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
              > cut crop
              > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
              > protected.
              > >
              > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
              > If I
              > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
              > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
              > >
              > > >
              > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
              > following the
              > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
              > expect
              > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
              > first and
              > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
              > when you
              > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
              > eat your
              > > > plants after all that work.
              > > >
              > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
              > suspect
              > > > he had the same problems.
              > > >
              > > > Steve
              > >
              > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              >
            • Niels Corfield
              Hi Torskel, See if any of this info helps. All the best, Niels http://del.icio.us/entrailer http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 13, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Torskel,

                See if any of this info helps.

                All the best,
                Niels
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                torskel87 wrote:

                > Hello everyone
                > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                > mixed seed in a natural way .???

                *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few
                of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off these
                plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have not
                done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                excluded_. This last point is key.
                This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for our
                needs.
                _HSL website:_
                http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php
                Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to another.
                At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on the
                same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transferring
                pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are hand-pollinating
                _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.


                _Or you could just have a garden bed near the house specifically for
                seed saving, then just add these seeds to seed balls for next season.
                _
                _

                > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???

                *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                (tilling, cultivating or removing vegetative cover) you will not have a
                major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil" rather
                than preventing /soil erosion/.
                "doing" options include:
                -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                be called "alley cropping".
                -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.

                _
                Links_
                Vetiver
                http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                www.vetiver.com

                Alleycropping
                http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping

                Maize-Mucuna
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                the contours are.
                For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                might build a terrace.

                Anyone know any other good resources for swales and surveying?
                Particularly from the permaculture list.

                *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                different intervals.
                It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                _Greening the Desert
                http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                side with the above title)
                _
                _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                Or combinations there of.
                Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                along the length.

                There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.

                *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                available and what is native in your local area.
                Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                _Climate
                _What is your regional climate?
                Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                frequent is rainfall?
                _Vegetation_
                What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                perrenially.
                _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                _Trees and Fertility_
                What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                freely available? To buy or gather?
                These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                especially in an upland situation.
                Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                are better. And hopefully more available
                _Resources_
                How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                labour-force is not available, or needed?
                For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                with just 2 people.
                How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?



                *Some things to Remember*

                _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                the field.

                _Marking Swales/Contours_
                Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                the slope would be better than none.

                When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation networks
                for further advice.

                All the best,
                Niels
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                > Any advice will be helpfull
                > Thanks
                > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Steve,
                > >
                > > Thank you for suggestions.
                > >
                > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                > suffering
                > > > from the same fate.
                > >
                > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                > there.
                > >
                > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                > just
                > > >what
                > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                > other
                > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                > > >need there will be some left for you.
                > >
                > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                > dug
                > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                > my
                > > seedlings are thriving!
                > >
                > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                > seeds I
                > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                > but
                > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                > the
                > > 'pests' yet!
                > >
                > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                > > > be protected until they get started.
                > >
                > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                > right
                > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                > tracks I
                > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                > couple
                > > lettuce from seedballs.
                > >
                > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                > from the
                > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                > cut crop
                > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                > protected.
                > >
                > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                > If I
                > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                > following the
                > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                > expect
                > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                > first and
                > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                > when you
                > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                > eat your
                > > > plants after all that work.
                > > >
                > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                > suspect
                > > > he had the same problems.
                > > >
                > > > Steve
                > >
                > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SPONSORED LINKS
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                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+seed&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=D_Tbyi65sWutvj-7sWT97A>
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              • torskel87
                Hi Niels thanks for your advice. A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 3, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Niels
                  thanks for your advice.
                  A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing
                  daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and brassicas.So when
                  daikon blooms it will be pollinated only by other daikon .

                  In relation to the terraces I think that as you said, it´s to much
                  labor, and the first years the soil of the place where the terraces
                  were builded gets very poor and won´t produce a good harvest because
                  the intensive movement of soil from one place to other.
                  So the option might be build terraces of slow formation with
                  vegetation at the contours, the problem with this is that until you
                  get a terrace, is very difficult to have crops in that place because
                  the inclination of the land and the poor absortion of water unables
                  good yields.The advantage of making a terrace with an earthen wall is
                  the possibility of sowing that place inmediatly, but I will have to
                  use compost to improve soil, what represents to much labor.

                  So I will try both ways and see wich works better.
                  The conditions of the place are:
                  Very high in altitude 9200 ft, very humid and cloudy, the surruondings
                  are cloud forest and highlands. The land has never been used for
                  agriculture, just for grazing, it used to be forest, but was cleared
                  40 years ago, the soil is really good, 180 cm of top soil.There are
                  periods of heavy rain fall, and periods of drought(6 months of rain, 6
                  months of drought)

                  The seed is not difficult to find, there are lots of seed in the
                  surrounding forest.The forest in this slopes is very dense, humid, and
                  by the afternoons it gets full of fog.

                  There are many native species that are nitrogen fixing, and other
                  species that help to water retention.

                  What I Would like to know is how to make contours, do you make them
                  following the level curves, using a level.With what spacing do you
                  plant in the contours???? Do you plant trees also? Don´t the trees
                  create to much shade for the plants???What spacing do you use between
                  contours???

                  In ralation to the grazing I think that I will have some llamas
                  because they don´t damage the land as cattle, sheep and goats.As I am
                  in the middle of the Andes, llamas also are the only efficient animals
                  at this altitude, they can provide wool, excellent manure, and they
                  help to regenarate dgradeted lands.

                  All your advice will be helpfull
                  Thanks
                  Miguel

                  > torskel87 wrote:
                  >
                  > > Hello everyone
                  > > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                  > > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                  > > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                  > > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                  > > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                  > > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                  > > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                  > > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                  > > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                  > > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                  > > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                  > > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                  > > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                  > > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                  > > mixed seed in a natural way .???
                  >
                  > *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                  > A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a
                  few
                  > of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                  > with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off
                  these
                  > plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have
                  not
                  > done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                  > (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                  > At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                  > whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                  > excluded_. This last point is key.
                  > This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for
                  our
                  > needs.
                  > _HSL website:_
                  > http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php
                  >
                  >
                  > Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                  > Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                  > other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                  > can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to
                  another.
                  > At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                  > Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on
                  the
                  > same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transfering
                  > pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                  > it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                  > Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are
                  hand-pollinating
                  > _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.
                  >
                  > __
                  > _
                  >
                  > > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                  > > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                  > > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                  > > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                  > > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                  > > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                  > > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???
                  >
                  > *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                  > *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                  > have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                  > labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                  > Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                  > (tilling, cultivating or removing vegitative cover) you will not have a
                  > major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                  > language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil"
                  rather
                  > than preventing /soil erosion/.
                  > "doing" options include:
                  > -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                  > contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                  > -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                  > intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                  > lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                  > -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                  > be called "alley cropping".
                  > -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                  > mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.
                  >
                  > _
                  > Links_
                  > Vetiver
                  > http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                  > www.vetiver.com
                  >
                  > Alleycropping
                  >
                  http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                  > http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping
                  >
                  > Maize-Mucuna
                  > http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                  > http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html
                  >
                  > Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                  > http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                  > *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                  > It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                  > the contours are.
                  > For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                  > permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                  > It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                  > to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                  > You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                  > might build a terrace.
                  >
                  > Anyone know any other good resrouces for swales and surveying?
                  > Particularly from the permaculture list.
                  >
                  > *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                  > Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                  > them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                  > different intervals.
                  > It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                  > "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                  > _Greening the Desert
                  > http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                  > side with the above title)
                  > _
                  > _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                  > the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                  > Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                  > Or combinations there of.
                  > Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                  > along the length.
                  >
                  > There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                  > But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                  > with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                  > few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                  > cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.
                  >
                  > *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                  > It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                  > available and what is native in your local area.
                  > Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                  > And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                  > _CLimate
                  > _What is your regional climate?
                  > Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                  > frequent is rainfall?
                  > _Vegetation_
                  > What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                  > Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                  > perrenially.
                  > _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                  > Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                  > Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                  > be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                  > _Trees and Fertility_
                  > What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                  > freely available? To buy or gather?
                  > These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                  > especially in an upland situation.
                  > Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                  > are better. And hopefully more available
                  > _Resources_
                  > How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                  > What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                  > can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                  > labour-force is not available, or needed?
                  > For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                  > with just 2 people.
                  > How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                  > gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                  > neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > *Some things to Remember*
                  >
                  > _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                  > So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                  > the field.
                  >
                  > _Marking Swales/Contours_
                  > Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                  > swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                  > If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                  > I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                  > placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                  > Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                  > the slope would be better than none.
                  >
                  > When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation
                  networks
                  > for further advice.
                  >
                  > All the best,
                  > Niels
                  > http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                  > http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                  > http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > Any advice will be helpfull
                  > > Thanks
                  > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Hello Steve,
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you for suggestions.
                  > > >
                  > > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                  > > suffering
                  > > > > from the same fate.
                  > > >
                  > > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                  > > there.
                  > > >
                  > > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                  > > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                  > > just
                  > > > >what
                  > > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                  > > other
                  > > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                  > > > >need there will be some left for you.
                  > > >
                  > > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                  > > dug
                  > > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                  > > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                  > > my
                  > > > seedlings are thriving!
                  > > >
                  > > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                  > > seeds I
                  > > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                  > > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                  > > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                  > > but
                  > > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                  > > the
                  > > > 'pests' yet!
                  > > >
                  > > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                  > > > > be protected until they get started.
                  > > >
                  > > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                  > > right
                  > > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                  > > tracks I
                  > > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                  > > couple
                  > > > lettuce from seedballs.
                  > > >
                  > > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                  > > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                  > > from the
                  > > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                  > > cut crop
                  > > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                  > > protected.
                  > > >
                  > > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                  > > If I
                  > > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                  > > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                  > > following the
                  > > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                  > > expect
                  > > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                  > > first and
                  > > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                  > > when you
                  > > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                  > > eat your
                  > > > > plants after all that work.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                  > > suspect
                  > > > > he had the same problems.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Steve
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > SPONSORED LINKS
                  > > Organic gardening
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=lsZ__pr5FoKO4VINPmunKQ>

                  > > Organic gardening pest control
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=YsGmRgMdYxGW22IATEdE7A>

                  > > Organic gardening supply
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+supply&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=FZTkuZgVmjZaw_hVDQ0JLQ>

                  > >
                  > > Organic vegetable gardening
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=qzydEBxdFvveJXr9hAbldw>

                  > > Organic seed
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+seed&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=D_Tbyi65sWutvj-7sWT97A>

                  > > Masanobu fukuoka
                  > >
                  <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Masanobu+fukuoka&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=3IpiF0vypPDUJ35tBfcXvQ>

                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > >
                  > > * Visit your group "fukuoka_farming
                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming>" on the web.
                  > >
                  > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  <mailto:fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  > >
                  > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                  >
                • Niels Corfield
                  Miguel, Please see below for replies to specific questions. Cheers, Niels Hi Niels thanks for your advice. A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 10, 2006
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                    Miguel,

                    Please see below for replies to specific questions.

                    Cheers,
                    Niels

                    Hi Niels
                    thanks for your advice.
                    A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing
                    daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and brassicas.So when
                    daikon blooms it will be pollinated only by other daikon .

                    In relation to the terraces I think that as you said, it´s to much
                    labor, and the first years the soil of the place where the terraces
                    were builded gets very poor and won´t produce a good harvest because
                    the intensive movement of soil from one place to other.
                    So the option might be build terraces of slow formation with
                    vegetation at the contours, the problem with this is that until you
                    get a terrace, is very difficult to have crops in that place because
                    the inclination of the land and the poor absortion of water unables
                    good yields.The advantage of making a terrace with an earthen wall is
                    the possibility of sowing that place inmediatly, but I will have to
                    use compost to improve soil, what represents to much labor.

                    Perhaps it is worth accepting lower yields and longer time-frames along
                    with reduced labour-issues.
                    Cover crops, seeds, mulching.
                    What state are the fields in now? Weeds etc.
                    Mucuna handles most weeds pretty well.
                    No probs with erosion with mucuna mulch.

                    So I will try both ways and see wich works better.
                    The conditions of the place are:
                    Very high in altitude 9200 ft, very humid and cloudy, the surruondings
                    are cloud forest and highlands. The land has never been used for
                    agriculture, just for grazing, it used to be forest, but was cleared
                    40 years ago, the soil is really good, 180 cm of top soil.There are
                    periods of heavy rain fall, and periods of drought(6 months of rain, 6
                    months of drought)

                    How about mucuna or lupin as cover crops?
                    Lupin is good for your altitude and mucnua-maize production is done on
                    mega-slopes.
                    Link: http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                    http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                    The seed is not difficult to find, there are lots of seed in the
                    surrounding forest.The forest in this slopes is very dense, humid, and
                    by the afternoons it gets full of fog.

                    Not all seed is equal, try to select seed from trees growing in a
                    similar space to the one you will using, and look for the healthiest
                    specimens. Probably worth getting someone into trees to come with you.
                    Some seed will need preparing before it will germinate.
                    If in doubt ask about this one.
                    Scarifying, stratifying etc.

                    There are many native species that are nitrogen fixing, and other
                    species that help to water retention.

                    Get them all. Check out Ernst Gotsch's seed collections. We are looking
                    for big plastic coke bottles full of one variety of seed.
                    And clay to make seedballs.
                    http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Seed-Balls

                    What I Would like to know is how to make contours, do you make them
                    following the level curves, using a level.
                    Surveying can be done with either an a-frame or the liquid filled-level
                    device, I forget what it's called.
                    Link:
                    http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hs=QsJ&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=a-frame+permaculture&btnG=Search

                    With what spacing do you plant in the contours????
                    ---Not sure why not email Geoff Lawton?
                    http://permaculture-swicki.eurekster.com/Geoff+Lawton/ or
                    http://www.permaculture.org.au/

                    Though I think it not nearly as critical as getting a good level.
                    Am chatting with him on this topic, though he busy, so will be a while.
                    Watch his video "Greening the Desert", very informative.

                    Do you plant trees also?
                    Yes, see Ernst Gotsch's model.
                    http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Ernst-G%C3%B6tsch
                    Pics English Translate
                    http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agrofloresta.net%2Ffotos%2Findex.htm&langpair=pt%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
                    Portuguese
                    http://www.agrofloresta.net/fotos/index.htm

                    Related Project -Same Methods
                    http://del.icio.us/entrailer/agrofloresta

                    Don´t the trees create to much shade for the plants???
                    Yes they do but not for a few years, this is a resource to work with,
                    that you can use shape the landscape.
                    Also there are many shade-tolerant plants. The system can grow, develop.
                    Trees can be pruned, for mulch and firewood or forage.
                    Trees give fruits also.

                    What spacing do you use between contours???
                    Not sure. Think depends on resources.
                    I would go for vegetation as the main regen tool.
                    Is rain catchment a big issue?
                    How long is dry season?

                    In ralation to the grazing I think that I will have some llamas
                    because they don´t damage the land as cattle, sheep and goats.As I am
                    in the middle of the Andes, llamas also are the only efficient animals
                    at this altitude, they can provide wool, excellent manure, and they
                    help to regenarate dgradeted lands.

                    All your advice will be helpfull
                    Thanks
                    Miguel


                    Agroforestry Links:
                    http://www.google.co.uk/search?hs=uAz&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=regenerative+analog+forestry+in+brazil&btnG=Search&meta=
                    http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/seeing_forest.html
                  • Raju Titus
                    Cover crops in no-till hedge against drought Grant Tribune Sentinel Not only can cover crops planted in no-till fields fix nitrogen in the short term, they can
                    Message 9 of 15 , Aug 13 8:09 PM
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                      Cover crops in no-till hedge against drought
                      Grant Tribune Sentinel
                      Not only can cover crops planted in no-till fields fix nitrogen in the
                      short term, they can also reduce soil erosion and mitigate the effects of
                      drought in ...
                      <http://www.granttribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1392:cover-crops-in-no-till-hedge-against-drought&catid=35:ag-news&Itemid=55>
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