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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: COVER CROP

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  • rajutitus lal
    Dear friend, Actually nothing like weeds in natural way of farming. Nature always covers land with vegetation .We can take advantage of natural ground cover
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 30, 2006
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      Dear friend,
      Actually nothing like weeds in natural way of farming. Nature always covers land with vegetation .We can take advantage of natural ground cover for growing
      crops. If we don’t have suitable naturally grown ground cover then scattering of seeds
      of ground cover crop is necessary. In our field we tried so many but Acasia(subabul)
      generally known as Australian acasia did well. This is a deep rooted leguminous plant ones hold land started scatter thousands of seeds.We are growing Rice and Wheat in its seedlings ground cover, we put seed balls of Rice in rainy season and in winter after harvesting rice we directly scatter wheat in the mulch of Rice straw.

      There is advantage of keeping shade on ground, what we want to grow will come up so many seeds of unwanted vegetation will remain dorment in shade.In our land acasia remain dorment in the shade of crops.

      Therefore I suggest first take advantage of locally avilable ground cover then introduce
      leguminous.One should always remember that leguminous crops grow well in grass and serials of grass variety grow well in non-leguminous ground cover.

      In India Gajar grass is spreadig every where.People say this is very bad, it creates alergy,
      this is introduced delibrately by Americans with the wheat supplied by americans during
      femine with the agreement of P.L.480.Doctors given name of disease and medical companies are making medicine.These are all false stories.

      Gajar grass is a very good ground cover . It is spreading because farmers tilling and killing weeds. Nature is providing clothes to Mother earth.

      Raju Titus


      poojyum <poojyum@...> wrote: Dear Rajuji,

      I whole heartedly agree. I was also thinking of just sowing seed among
      the 'weeds' too in addition to keeping clover. Will this be ok? Will
      the weeds compete and prevent growth of my crop?

      Thank you.
      Jagan.









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    • poojyum
      Dear Rajuji (and other list members), Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow
      Message 2 of 15 , May 9 3:24 AM
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        Dear Rajuji (and other list members),

        Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when
        the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow fast and my seed
        doesnt seem to germinate. If I leave it like that wont the grass/weeds
        shade my seeds? What should I do? Be patient? Or keep cutting back the
        weeds/grass? Thats too much work :(

        The other problem is many seedlings get attacked by snails, slugs,
        pigeons or mice. Just as it is happy to see a seedling sprout, its
        equally sad to see it taken away. My neighbours put netting around the
        seedling to prevent these 'pests'. And its working. They have a row of
        healthy looking runner bean seedlings. While mine is devoured. But it
        is like growing crops in a jail! I dont want to do that. But it is
        hard to hope that nature will balance all this. How to deal with this
        disappointment? Do you have any suggestions. My way of coping with
        this is to sow another seed.

        Thanks.
        SJ
      • Steven McCollough
        SJ, If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering from the same fate. If you put your seedlings in an area with no other growing
        Message 3 of 15 , May 9 10:35 AM
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          SJ,

          If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering
          from the same fate. If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
          growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant just what
          you need, that's not sharing with nature.

          If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with other
          plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you need
          there will be some left for you. If you plant from seedballs they will
          be protected until they get started. If you plant into a standing crop
          and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off from the
          increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that cut crop
          back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally protected.

          The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time following the
          right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't expect
          success every time and be prepared to have little success at first and
          more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard when you
          have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to eat your
          plants after all that work.

          Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I suspect
          he had the same problems.

          Steve

          poojyum wrote:

          >Dear Rajuji (and other list members),
          >
          >Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when
          >the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow fast and my seed
          >doesnt seem to germinate. If I leave it like that wont the grass/weeds
          >shade my seeds? What should I do? Be patient? Or keep cutting back the
          >weeds/grass? Thats too much work :(
          >
          >The other problem is many seedlings get attacked by snails, slugs,
          >pigeons or mice. Just as it is happy to see a seedling sprout, its
          >equally sad to see it taken away. My neighbours put netting around the
          >seedling to prevent these 'pests'. And its working. They have a row of
          >healthy looking runner bean seedlings. While mine is devoured. But it
          >is like growing crops in a jail! I dont want to do that. But it is
          >hard to hope that nature will balance all this. How to deal with this
          >disappointment? Do you have any suggestions. My way of coping with
          >this is to sow another seed.
          >
          >Thanks.
          >SJ
          >
        • poojyum
          Hello Steve, Thank you for suggestions. ... I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and there. ... My plot is full of so called weeds .
          Message 4 of 15 , May 10 1:19 AM
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            Hello Steve,

            Thank you for suggestions.

            > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering
            > from the same fate.

            I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and there.

            >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
            > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant just
            >what
            > you need, that's not sharing with nature.

            >
            > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with other
            > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
            >need there will be some left for you.

            My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had dug
            due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
            that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area my
            seedlings are thriving!

            I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many seeds I
            sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
            here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
            today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes but
            it seems they are there only because they have not been found by the
            'pests' yet!

            >If you plant from seedballs they will
            > be protected until they get started.

            With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the right
            clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the tracks I
            cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a couple
            lettuce from seedballs.

            >If you plant into a standing crop
            > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off from the
            > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that cut crop
            > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally protected.

            When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow. If I
            was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
            back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.

            >
            > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time following the
            > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't expect
            > success every time and be prepared to have little success at first and
            > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard when you
            > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to eat your
            > plants after all that work.
            >
            > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I suspect
            > he had the same problems.
            >
            > Steve

            Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
          • torskel87
            Hello everyone This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let this occur
            Message 5 of 15 , May 10 2:11 PM
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              Hello everyone
              This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
              plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
              this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
              (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
              be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
              Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
              Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
              not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
              daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
              seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
              other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
              ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
              completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
              eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
              mixed seed in a natural way .???
              Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
              hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
              really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
              them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
              walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
              allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
              humidity, somebody has experience with this.???
              Any advice will be helpfull
              Thanks
              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Hello Steve,
              >
              > Thank you for suggestions.
              >
              > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
              suffering
              > > from the same fate.
              >
              > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
              there.
              >
              > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
              > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
              just
              > >what
              > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
              >
              > >
              > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
              other
              > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
              > >need there will be some left for you.
              >
              > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
              dug
              > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
              > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
              my
              > seedlings are thriving!
              >
              > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
              seeds I
              > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
              > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
              > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
              but
              > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
              the
              > 'pests' yet!
              >
              > >If you plant from seedballs they will
              > > be protected until they get started.
              >
              > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
              right
              > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
              tracks I
              > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
              couple
              > lettuce from seedballs.
              >
              > >If you plant into a standing crop
              > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
              from the
              > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
              cut crop
              > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
              protected.
              >
              > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
              If I
              > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
              > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
              >
              > >
              > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
              following the
              > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
              expect
              > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
              first and
              > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
              when you
              > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
              eat your
              > > plants after all that work.
              > >
              > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
              suspect
              > > he had the same problems.
              > >
              > > Steve
              >
              > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
              >
            • Niels Corfield
              ... * Seed Saving and varietal purity* A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few of them in one place, doesn t matter where but
              Message 6 of 15 , Jun 9, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                torskel87 wrote:

                > Hello everyone
                > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                > mixed seed in a natural way .???

                *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few
                of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off these
                plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have not
                done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                excluded_. This last point is key.
                This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for our
                needs.
                _HSL website:_
                http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php


                Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to another.
                At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on the
                same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transfering
                pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are hand-pollinating
                _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.

                __
                _

                > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???

                *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                (tilling, cultivating or removing vegitative cover) you will not have a
                major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil" rather
                than preventing /soil erosion/.
                "doing" options include:
                -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                be called "alley cropping".
                -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.

                _
                Links_
                Vetiver
                http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                www.vetiver.com

                Alleycropping
                http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping

                Maize-Mucuna
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                the contours are.
                For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                might build a terrace.

                Anyone know any other good resrouces for swales and surveying?
                Particularly from the permaculture list.

                *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                different intervals.
                It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                _Greening the Desert
                http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                side with the above title)
                _
                _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                Or combinations there of.
                Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                along the length.

                There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.

                *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                available and what is native in your local area.
                Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                _CLimate
                _What is your regional climate?
                Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                frequent is rainfall?
                _Vegetation_
                What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                perrenially.
                _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                _Trees and Fertility_
                What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                freely available? To buy or gather?
                These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                especially in an upland situation.
                Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                are better. And hopefully more available
                _Resources_
                How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                labour-force is not available, or needed?
                For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                with just 2 people.
                How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?



                *Some things to Remember*

                _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                the field.

                _Marking Swales/Contours_
                Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                the slope would be better than none.

                When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation networks
                for further advice.

                All the best,
                Niels
                http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                > Any advice will be helpfull
                > Thanks
                > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello Steve,
                > >
                > > Thank you for suggestions.
                > >
                > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                > suffering
                > > > from the same fate.
                > >
                > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                > there.
                > >
                > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                > just
                > > >what
                > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                > other
                > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                > > >need there will be some left for you.
                > >
                > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                > dug
                > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                > my
                > > seedlings are thriving!
                > >
                > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                > seeds I
                > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                > but
                > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                > the
                > > 'pests' yet!
                > >
                > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                > > > be protected until they get started.
                > >
                > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                > right
                > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                > tracks I
                > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                > couple
                > > lettuce from seedballs.
                > >
                > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                > from the
                > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                > cut crop
                > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                > protected.
                > >
                > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                > If I
                > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                > following the
                > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                > expect
                > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                > first and
                > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                > when you
                > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                > eat your
                > > > plants after all that work.
                > > >
                > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                > suspect
                > > > he had the same problems.
                > > >
                > > > Steve
                > >
                > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Niels Corfield
                Hi Torskel, See if any of this info helps. All the best, Niels http://del.icio.us/entrailer http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                Message 7 of 15 , Jun 13, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Torskel,

                  See if any of this info helps.

                  All the best,
                  Niels
                  http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                  http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                  torskel87 wrote:

                  > Hello everyone
                  > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                  > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                  > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                  > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                  > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                  > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                  > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                  > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                  > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                  > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                  > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                  > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                  > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                  > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                  > mixed seed in a natural way .???

                  *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                  A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few
                  of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                  with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off these
                  plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have not
                  done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                  (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                  At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                  whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                  excluded_. This last point is key.
                  This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for our
                  needs.
                  _HSL website:_
                  http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php
                  Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                  Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                  other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                  can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to another.
                  At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                  Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on the
                  same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transferring
                  pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                  it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                  Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are hand-pollinating
                  _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.


                  _Or you could just have a garden bed near the house specifically for
                  seed saving, then just add these seeds to seed balls for next season.
                  _
                  _

                  > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                  > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                  > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                  > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                  > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                  > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                  > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???

                  *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                  *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                  have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                  labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                  Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                  (tilling, cultivating or removing vegetative cover) you will not have a
                  major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                  language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil" rather
                  than preventing /soil erosion/.
                  "doing" options include:
                  -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                  contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                  -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                  intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                  lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                  -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                  be called "alley cropping".
                  -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                  mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.

                  _
                  Links_
                  Vetiver
                  http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                  www.vetiver.com

                  Alleycropping
                  http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                  http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping

                  Maize-Mucuna
                  http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                  http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                  Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                  http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                  *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                  It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                  the contours are.
                  For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                  permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                  It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                  to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                  You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                  might build a terrace.

                  Anyone know any other good resources for swales and surveying?
                  Particularly from the permaculture list.

                  *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                  Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                  them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                  different intervals.
                  It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                  "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                  _Greening the Desert
                  http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                  side with the above title)
                  _
                  _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                  the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                  Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                  Or combinations there of.
                  Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                  along the length.

                  There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                  But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                  with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                  few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                  cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.

                  *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                  It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                  available and what is native in your local area.
                  Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                  And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                  _Climate
                  _What is your regional climate?
                  Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                  frequent is rainfall?
                  _Vegetation_
                  What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                  Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                  perrenially.
                  _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                  Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                  Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                  be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                  _Trees and Fertility_
                  What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                  freely available? To buy or gather?
                  These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                  especially in an upland situation.
                  Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                  are better. And hopefully more available
                  _Resources_
                  How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                  What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                  can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                  labour-force is not available, or needed?
                  For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                  with just 2 people.
                  How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                  gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                  neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?



                  *Some things to Remember*

                  _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                  So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                  the field.

                  _Marking Swales/Contours_
                  Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                  swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                  If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                  I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                  placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                  Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                  the slope would be better than none.

                  When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation networks
                  for further advice.

                  All the best,
                  Niels
                  http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                  http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                  http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                  > Any advice will be helpfull
                  > Thanks
                  > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Hello Steve,
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for suggestions.
                  > >
                  > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                  > suffering
                  > > > from the same fate.
                  > >
                  > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                  > there.
                  > >
                  > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                  > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                  > just
                  > > >what
                  > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                  > other
                  > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                  > > >need there will be some left for you.
                  > >
                  > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                  > dug
                  > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                  > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                  > my
                  > > seedlings are thriving!
                  > >
                  > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                  > seeds I
                  > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                  > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                  > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                  > but
                  > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                  > the
                  > > 'pests' yet!
                  > >
                  > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                  > > > be protected until they get started.
                  > >
                  > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                  > right
                  > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                  > tracks I
                  > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                  > couple
                  > > lettuce from seedballs.
                  > >
                  > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                  > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                  > from the
                  > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                  > cut crop
                  > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                  > protected.
                  > >
                  > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                  > If I
                  > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                  > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                  > following the
                  > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                  > expect
                  > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                  > first and
                  > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                  > when you
                  > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                  > eat your
                  > > > plants after all that work.
                  > > >
                  > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                  > suspect
                  > > > he had the same problems.
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • torskel87
                  Hi Niels thanks for your advice. A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 3, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Niels
                    thanks for your advice.
                    A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing
                    daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and brassicas.So when
                    daikon blooms it will be pollinated only by other daikon .

                    In relation to the terraces I think that as you said, it´s to much
                    labor, and the first years the soil of the place where the terraces
                    were builded gets very poor and won´t produce a good harvest because
                    the intensive movement of soil from one place to other.
                    So the option might be build terraces of slow formation with
                    vegetation at the contours, the problem with this is that until you
                    get a terrace, is very difficult to have crops in that place because
                    the inclination of the land and the poor absortion of water unables
                    good yields.The advantage of making a terrace with an earthen wall is
                    the possibility of sowing that place inmediatly, but I will have to
                    use compost to improve soil, what represents to much labor.

                    So I will try both ways and see wich works better.
                    The conditions of the place are:
                    Very high in altitude 9200 ft, very humid and cloudy, the surruondings
                    are cloud forest and highlands. The land has never been used for
                    agriculture, just for grazing, it used to be forest, but was cleared
                    40 years ago, the soil is really good, 180 cm of top soil.There are
                    periods of heavy rain fall, and periods of drought(6 months of rain, 6
                    months of drought)

                    The seed is not difficult to find, there are lots of seed in the
                    surrounding forest.The forest in this slopes is very dense, humid, and
                    by the afternoons it gets full of fog.

                    There are many native species that are nitrogen fixing, and other
                    species that help to water retention.

                    What I Would like to know is how to make contours, do you make them
                    following the level curves, using a level.With what spacing do you
                    plant in the contours???? Do you plant trees also? Don´t the trees
                    create to much shade for the plants???What spacing do you use between
                    contours???

                    In ralation to the grazing I think that I will have some llamas
                    because they don´t damage the land as cattle, sheep and goats.As I am
                    in the middle of the Andes, llamas also are the only efficient animals
                    at this altitude, they can provide wool, excellent manure, and they
                    help to regenarate dgradeted lands.

                    All your advice will be helpfull
                    Thanks
                    Miguel

                    > torskel87 wrote:
                    >
                    > > Hello everyone
                    > > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                    > > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                    > > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                    > > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                    > > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                    > > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                    > > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                    > > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                    > > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                    > > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                    > > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                    > > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                    > > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                    > > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                    > > mixed seed in a natural way .???
                    >
                    > *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                    > A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a
                    few
                    > of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                    > with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off
                    these
                    > plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have
                    not
                    > done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                    > (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                    > At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                    > whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                    > excluded_. This last point is key.
                    > This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for
                    our
                    > needs.
                    > _HSL website:_
                    > http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php
                    >
                    >
                    > Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                    > Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                    > other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                    > can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to
                    another.
                    > At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                    > Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on
                    the
                    > same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transfering
                    > pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                    > it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                    > Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are
                    hand-pollinating
                    > _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.
                    >
                    > __
                    > _
                    >
                    > > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                    > > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                    > > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                    > > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                    > > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                    > > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                    > > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???
                    >
                    > *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                    > *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                    > have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                    > labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                    > Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                    > (tilling, cultivating or removing vegitative cover) you will not have a
                    > major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                    > language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil"
                    rather
                    > than preventing /soil erosion/.
                    > "doing" options include:
                    > -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                    > contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                    > -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                    > intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                    > lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                    > -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                    > be called "alley cropping".
                    > -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                    > mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.
                    >
                    > _
                    > Links_
                    > Vetiver
                    > http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                    > www.vetiver.com
                    >
                    > Alleycropping
                    >
                    http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                    > http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping
                    >
                    > Maize-Mucuna
                    > http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                    > http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html
                    >
                    > Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                    > http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                    > *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                    > It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                    > the contours are.
                    > For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                    > permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                    > It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                    > to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                    > You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                    > might build a terrace.
                    >
                    > Anyone know any other good resrouces for swales and surveying?
                    > Particularly from the permaculture list.
                    >
                    > *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                    > Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                    > them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                    > different intervals.
                    > It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                    > "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                    > _Greening the Desert
                    > http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                    > side with the above title)
                    > _
                    > _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                    > the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                    > Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                    > Or combinations there of.
                    > Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                    > along the length.
                    >
                    > There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                    > But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                    > with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                    > few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                    > cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.
                    >
                    > *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                    > It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                    > available and what is native in your local area.
                    > Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                    > And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                    > _CLimate
                    > _What is your regional climate?
                    > Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                    > frequent is rainfall?
                    > _Vegetation_
                    > What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                    > Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                    > perrenially.
                    > _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                    > Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                    > Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                    > be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                    > _Trees and Fertility_
                    > What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                    > freely available? To buy or gather?
                    > These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                    > especially in an upland situation.
                    > Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                    > are better. And hopefully more available
                    > _Resources_
                    > How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                    > What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                    > can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                    > labour-force is not available, or needed?
                    > For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                    > with just 2 people.
                    > How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                    > gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                    > neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > *Some things to Remember*
                    >
                    > _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                    > So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                    > the field.
                    >
                    > _Marking Swales/Contours_
                    > Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                    > swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                    > If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                    > I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                    > placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                    > Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                    > the slope would be better than none.
                    >
                    > When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation
                    networks
                    > for further advice.
                    >
                    > All the best,
                    > Niels
                    > http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                    > http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Any advice will be helpfull
                    > > Thanks
                    > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Hello Steve,
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you for suggestions.
                    > > >
                    > > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                    > > suffering
                    > > > > from the same fate.
                    > > >
                    > > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                    > > there.
                    > > >
                    > > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                    > > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                    > > just
                    > > > >what
                    > > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                    > > other
                    > > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                    > > > >need there will be some left for you.
                    > > >
                    > > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                    > > dug
                    > > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                    > > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                    > > my
                    > > > seedlings are thriving!
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                    > > seeds I
                    > > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                    > > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                    > > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                    > > but
                    > > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                    > > the
                    > > > 'pests' yet!
                    > > >
                    > > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                    > > > > be protected until they get started.
                    > > >
                    > > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                    > > right
                    > > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                    > > tracks I
                    > > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                    > > couple
                    > > > lettuce from seedballs.
                    > > >
                    > > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                    > > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                    > > from the
                    > > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                    > > cut crop
                    > > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                    > > protected.
                    > > >
                    > > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                    > > If I
                    > > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                    > > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                    > > following the
                    > > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                    > > expect
                    > > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                    > > first and
                    > > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                    > > when you
                    > > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                    > > eat your
                    > > > > plants after all that work.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                    > > suspect
                    > > > > he had the same problems.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Steve
                    > > >
                    > > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > SPONSORED LINKS
                    > > Organic gardening
                    > >
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=lsZ__pr5FoKO4VINPmunKQ>

                    > > Organic gardening pest control
                    > >
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=YsGmRgMdYxGW22IATEdE7A>

                    > > Organic gardening supply
                    > >
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+supply&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=FZTkuZgVmjZaw_hVDQ0JLQ>

                    > >
                    > > Organic vegetable gardening
                    > >
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=qzydEBxdFvveJXr9hAbldw>

                    > > Organic seed
                    > >
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+seed&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=D_Tbyi65sWutvj-7sWT97A>

                    > > Masanobu fukuoka
                    > >
                    <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Masanobu+fukuoka&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=3IpiF0vypPDUJ35tBfcXvQ>

                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                    > >
                    > > * Visit your group "fukuoka_farming
                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming>" on the web.
                    > >
                    > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    <mailto:fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    > >
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                  • Niels Corfield
                    Miguel, Please see below for replies to specific questions. Cheers, Niels Hi Niels thanks for your advice. A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 10, 2006
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                      Miguel,

                      Please see below for replies to specific questions.

                      Cheers,
                      Niels

                      Hi Niels
                      thanks for your advice.
                      A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing
                      daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and brassicas.So when
                      daikon blooms it will be pollinated only by other daikon .

                      In relation to the terraces I think that as you said, it´s to much
                      labor, and the first years the soil of the place where the terraces
                      were builded gets very poor and won´t produce a good harvest because
                      the intensive movement of soil from one place to other.
                      So the option might be build terraces of slow formation with
                      vegetation at the contours, the problem with this is that until you
                      get a terrace, is very difficult to have crops in that place because
                      the inclination of the land and the poor absortion of water unables
                      good yields.The advantage of making a terrace with an earthen wall is
                      the possibility of sowing that place inmediatly, but I will have to
                      use compost to improve soil, what represents to much labor.

                      Perhaps it is worth accepting lower yields and longer time-frames along
                      with reduced labour-issues.
                      Cover crops, seeds, mulching.
                      What state are the fields in now? Weeds etc.
                      Mucuna handles most weeds pretty well.
                      No probs with erosion with mucuna mulch.

                      So I will try both ways and see wich works better.
                      The conditions of the place are:
                      Very high in altitude 9200 ft, very humid and cloudy, the surruondings
                      are cloud forest and highlands. The land has never been used for
                      agriculture, just for grazing, it used to be forest, but was cleared
                      40 years ago, the soil is really good, 180 cm of top soil.There are
                      periods of heavy rain fall, and periods of drought(6 months of rain, 6
                      months of drought)

                      How about mucuna or lupin as cover crops?
                      Lupin is good for your altitude and mucnua-maize production is done on
                      mega-slopes.
                      Link: http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                      http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                      The seed is not difficult to find, there are lots of seed in the
                      surrounding forest.The forest in this slopes is very dense, humid, and
                      by the afternoons it gets full of fog.

                      Not all seed is equal, try to select seed from trees growing in a
                      similar space to the one you will using, and look for the healthiest
                      specimens. Probably worth getting someone into trees to come with you.
                      Some seed will need preparing before it will germinate.
                      If in doubt ask about this one.
                      Scarifying, stratifying etc.

                      There are many native species that are nitrogen fixing, and other
                      species that help to water retention.

                      Get them all. Check out Ernst Gotsch's seed collections. We are looking
                      for big plastic coke bottles full of one variety of seed.
                      And clay to make seedballs.
                      http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Seed-Balls

                      What I Would like to know is how to make contours, do you make them
                      following the level curves, using a level.
                      Surveying can be done with either an a-frame or the liquid filled-level
                      device, I forget what it's called.
                      Link:
                      http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hs=QsJ&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=a-frame+permaculture&btnG=Search

                      With what spacing do you plant in the contours????
                      ---Not sure why not email Geoff Lawton?
                      http://permaculture-swicki.eurekster.com/Geoff+Lawton/ or
                      http://www.permaculture.org.au/

                      Though I think it not nearly as critical as getting a good level.
                      Am chatting with him on this topic, though he busy, so will be a while.
                      Watch his video "Greening the Desert", very informative.

                      Do you plant trees also?
                      Yes, see Ernst Gotsch's model.
                      http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Ernst-G%C3%B6tsch
                      Pics English Translate
                      http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agrofloresta.net%2Ffotos%2Findex.htm&langpair=pt%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
                      Portuguese
                      http://www.agrofloresta.net/fotos/index.htm

                      Related Project -Same Methods
                      http://del.icio.us/entrailer/agrofloresta

                      Don´t the trees create to much shade for the plants???
                      Yes they do but not for a few years, this is a resource to work with,
                      that you can use shape the landscape.
                      Also there are many shade-tolerant plants. The system can grow, develop.
                      Trees can be pruned, for mulch and firewood or forage.
                      Trees give fruits also.

                      What spacing do you use between contours???
                      Not sure. Think depends on resources.
                      I would go for vegetation as the main regen tool.
                      Is rain catchment a big issue?
                      How long is dry season?

                      In ralation to the grazing I think that I will have some llamas
                      because they don´t damage the land as cattle, sheep and goats.As I am
                      in the middle of the Andes, llamas also are the only efficient animals
                      at this altitude, they can provide wool, excellent manure, and they
                      help to regenarate dgradeted lands.

                      All your advice will be helpfull
                      Thanks
                      Miguel


                      Agroforestry Links:
                      http://www.google.co.uk/search?hs=uAz&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=regenerative+analog+forestry+in+brazil&btnG=Search&meta=
                      http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/seeing_forest.html
                    • Raju Titus
                      Cover crops in no-till hedge against drought Grant Tribune Sentinel Not only can cover crops planted in no-till fields fix nitrogen in the short term, they can
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 13, 2009
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                        Cover crops in no-till hedge against drought
                        Grant Tribune Sentinel
                        Not only can cover crops planted in no-till fields fix nitrogen in the
                        short term, they can also reduce soil erosion and mitigate the effects of
                        drought in ...
                        <http://www.granttribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1392:cover-crops-in-no-till-hedge-against-drought&catid=35:ag-news&Itemid=55>
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