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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: COVER CROP

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  • d pfalzer
    As a Floridian and a newcomer to all of this, I would very much like to hear about the cover crops you use. I am uncertain which ones will be happy where I am.
    Message 1 of 15 , Apr 30, 2006
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      As a Floridian and a newcomer to all of this, I would
      very much like to hear about the cover crops you use.
      I am uncertain which ones will be happy where I am.

      --- "Gloria C. Baikauskas" <gcb49@...> wrote:

      > Exactly! I have experimented using both ways. With
      > the cardboard I
      > found it took longer to decompose than I was told it
      > would. First
      > problem. I had no problems using the cover crop at
      > all...which was
      > hairy vetch at the time.
      >
      > My experiments told me using the cardboard was
      > against Nature...not
      > helping it at all.
      >
      > Gloria, Texas
      >
      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, rajutitus
      > lal
      > <rajuktitus@...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Dear friends,
      > >
      > > Cover crop Keeping cover crop has so many
      > advantages.
      > > 1-It controls weeds.
      > >
      > > 2-It provides moisture, water vapours comes up
      > condenced due to
      > cold green cover.
      > >
      > > 3-It provides shade for earth worms.
      > >
      > > 4-Roots provides use ful nutrients with the help
      > of soil building
      > microbes.
      > >
      > > 5- This stops soil erosion.
      > >
      > > 6It provides shelter for many frogs.lizards
      > which control
      > harmful insects,catterpillars etc.
      > >
      > > 7-Green cover keeps ground cold and warm as per
      > requirement of
      > the biodiversity.
      > >
      > > 8- Green cover protects ground from rain,air and
      > sun.
      > >
      > > 9-When we scatter seeds in the green ground
      > cover they are
      > protected by birds.
      > >
      > > 10-We cut back cover crop to allow our main crop
      > to grow, mulch
      > of this also ptotects seedlings and provides manure.
      > >
      > > Any ground cover crop is helpful.Beens/pulses
      > grow well in the
      > ground cover of grass.Non-grass ground coves are
      > good for grains such
      > as rice , wheat,sorgum,maiz etc.
      > > In no-till agricultuer use of
      > herbicide,cardboard,stones,sand
      > all are for killing. This is not
      > > eco-friendly.
      > > RajuTitus
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > ---------------------------------
      > > Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to
      > 30+ countries for
      > just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
      > >
      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
      > removed]
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >


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    • poojyum
      Dear Rajuji, I whole heartedly agree. I was also thinking of just sowing seed among the weeds too in addition to keeping clover. Will this be ok? Will the
      Message 2 of 15 , Apr 30, 2006
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        Dear Rajuji,

        I whole heartedly agree. I was also thinking of just sowing seed among
        the 'weeds' too in addition to keeping clover. Will this be ok? Will
        the weeds compete and prevent growth of my crop?

        Thank you.
        Jagan.
      • Gloria C. Baikauskas
        You will need to check locally I think. Clover is maybe the best..but not all clovers grow well in the South. If you check out some websites you will find
        Message 3 of 15 , Apr 30, 2006
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          You will need to check locally I think. Clover is maybe the
          best..but not all clovers grow well in the South. If you check out
          some websites you will find there are some clovers just for the
          warmer temperatures.

          In the fall you can plant hairy vetch. Here in my part of Texas it
          is September, as I recall. I let mine reseed itself wherever
          possible for a while. I lost it last year and have to resow it. It
          has to grow in the winter/early spring in the Southern US.

          I am not sure if you can plant buckwheat, or not, in Florida. Do a
          search of your local university ag site.

          Gloria, Texas

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, d pfalzer <d_pfalzer@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > As a Floridian and a newcomer to all of this, I would
          > very much like to hear about the cover crops you use.
          > I am uncertain which ones will be happy where I am.
          >
          > --- "Gloria C. Baikauskas" <gcb49@...> wrote:
          >
          > > Exactly! I have experimented using both ways. With
          > > the cardboard I
          > > found it took longer to decompose than I was told it
          > > would. First
          > > problem. I had no problems using the cover crop at
          > > all...which was
          > > hairy vetch at the time.
          > >
          > > My experiments told me using the cardboard was
          > > against Nature...not
          > > helping it at all.
          > >
          > > Gloria, Texas
          > >
          > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, rajutitus
          > > lal
          > > <rajuktitus@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Dear friends,
          > > >
          > > > Cover crop Keeping cover crop has so many
          > > advantages.
          > > > 1-It controls weeds.
          > > >
          > > > 2-It provides moisture, water vapours comes up
          > > condenced due to
          > > cold green cover.
          > > >
          > > > 3-It provides shade for earth worms.
          > > >
          > > > 4-Roots provides use ful nutrients with the help
          > > of soil building
          > > microbes.
          > > >
          > > > 5- This stops soil erosion.
          > > >
          > > > 6It provides shelter for many frogs.lizards
          > > which control
          > > harmful insects,catterpillars etc.
          > > >
          > > > 7-Green cover keeps ground cold and warm as per
          > > requirement of
          > > the biodiversity.
          > > >
          > > > 8- Green cover protects ground from rain,air and
          > > sun.
          > > >
          > > > 9-When we scatter seeds in the green ground
          > > cover they are
          > > protected by birds.
          > > >
          > > > 10-We cut back cover crop to allow our main crop
          > > to grow, mulch
          > > of this also ptotects seedlings and provides manure.
          > > >
          > > > Any ground cover crop is helpful.Beens/pulses
          > > grow well in the
          > > ground cover of grass.Non-grass ground coves are
          > > good for grains such
          > > as rice , wheat,sorgum,maiz etc.
          > > > In no-till agricultuer use of
          > > herbicide,cardboard,stones,sand
          > > all are for killing. This is not
          > > > eco-friendly.
          > > > RajuTitus
          > > >
          > > >
          > > >
          > > > ---------------------------------
          > > > Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to
          > > 30+ countries for
          > > just 2¢/min with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
          > > >
          > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > removed]
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Yahoo! Groups Links
          > >
          > >
          > > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
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        • rajutitus lal
          Dear friend, Actually nothing like weeds in natural way of farming. Nature always covers land with vegetation .We can take advantage of natural ground cover
          Message 4 of 15 , Apr 30, 2006
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            Dear friend,
            Actually nothing like weeds in natural way of farming. Nature always covers land with vegetation .We can take advantage of natural ground cover for growing
            crops. If we don’t have suitable naturally grown ground cover then scattering of seeds
            of ground cover crop is necessary. In our field we tried so many but Acasia(subabul)
            generally known as Australian acasia did well. This is a deep rooted leguminous plant ones hold land started scatter thousands of seeds.We are growing Rice and Wheat in its seedlings ground cover, we put seed balls of Rice in rainy season and in winter after harvesting rice we directly scatter wheat in the mulch of Rice straw.

            There is advantage of keeping shade on ground, what we want to grow will come up so many seeds of unwanted vegetation will remain dorment in shade.In our land acasia remain dorment in the shade of crops.

            Therefore I suggest first take advantage of locally avilable ground cover then introduce
            leguminous.One should always remember that leguminous crops grow well in grass and serials of grass variety grow well in non-leguminous ground cover.

            In India Gajar grass is spreadig every where.People say this is very bad, it creates alergy,
            this is introduced delibrately by Americans with the wheat supplied by americans during
            femine with the agreement of P.L.480.Doctors given name of disease and medical companies are making medicine.These are all false stories.

            Gajar grass is a very good ground cover . It is spreading because farmers tilling and killing weeds. Nature is providing clothes to Mother earth.

            Raju Titus


            poojyum <poojyum@...> wrote: Dear Rajuji,

            I whole heartedly agree. I was also thinking of just sowing seed among
            the 'weeds' too in addition to keeping clover. Will this be ok? Will
            the weeds compete and prevent growth of my crop?

            Thank you.
            Jagan.









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          • poojyum
            Dear Rajuji (and other list members), Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow
            Message 5 of 15 , May 9, 2006
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              Dear Rajuji (and other list members),

              Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when
              the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow fast and my seed
              doesnt seem to germinate. If I leave it like that wont the grass/weeds
              shade my seeds? What should I do? Be patient? Or keep cutting back the
              weeds/grass? Thats too much work :(

              The other problem is many seedlings get attacked by snails, slugs,
              pigeons or mice. Just as it is happy to see a seedling sprout, its
              equally sad to see it taken away. My neighbours put netting around the
              seedling to prevent these 'pests'. And its working. They have a row of
              healthy looking runner bean seedlings. While mine is devoured. But it
              is like growing crops in a jail! I dont want to do that. But it is
              hard to hope that nature will balance all this. How to deal with this
              disappointment? Do you have any suggestions. My way of coping with
              this is to sow another seed.

              Thanks.
              SJ
            • Steven McCollough
              SJ, If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering from the same fate. If you put your seedlings in an area with no other growing
              Message 6 of 15 , May 9, 2006
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                SJ,

                If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering
                from the same fate. If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant just what
                you need, that's not sharing with nature.

                If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with other
                plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you need
                there will be some left for you. If you plant from seedballs they will
                be protected until they get started. If you plant into a standing crop
                and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off from the
                increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that cut crop
                back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally protected.

                The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time following the
                right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't expect
                success every time and be prepared to have little success at first and
                more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard when you
                have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to eat your
                plants after all that work.

                Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I suspect
                he had the same problems.

                Steve

                poojyum wrote:

                >Dear Rajuji (and other list members),
                >
                >Normally I cut back the grass, weed a bit & sow my seed. However when
                >the rains come the grass and weeds seem to grow fast and my seed
                >doesnt seem to germinate. If I leave it like that wont the grass/weeds
                >shade my seeds? What should I do? Be patient? Or keep cutting back the
                >weeds/grass? Thats too much work :(
                >
                >The other problem is many seedlings get attacked by snails, slugs,
                >pigeons or mice. Just as it is happy to see a seedling sprout, its
                >equally sad to see it taken away. My neighbours put netting around the
                >seedling to prevent these 'pests'. And its working. They have a row of
                >healthy looking runner bean seedlings. While mine is devoured. But it
                >is like growing crops in a jail! I dont want to do that. But it is
                >hard to hope that nature will balance all this. How to deal with this
                >disappointment? Do you have any suggestions. My way of coping with
                >this is to sow another seed.
                >
                >Thanks.
                >SJ
                >
              • poojyum
                Hello Steve, Thank you for suggestions. ... I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and there. ... My plot is full of so called weeds .
                Message 7 of 15 , May 10, 2006
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                  Hello Steve,

                  Thank you for suggestions.

                  > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all suffering
                  > from the same fate.

                  I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and there.

                  >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                  > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant just
                  >what
                  > you need, that's not sharing with nature.

                  >
                  > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with other
                  > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                  >need there will be some left for you.

                  My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had dug
                  due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                  that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area my
                  seedlings are thriving!

                  I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many seeds I
                  sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                  here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                  today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes but
                  it seems they are there only because they have not been found by the
                  'pests' yet!

                  >If you plant from seedballs they will
                  > be protected until they get started.

                  With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the right
                  clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the tracks I
                  cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a couple
                  lettuce from seedballs.

                  >If you plant into a standing crop
                  > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off from the
                  > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that cut crop
                  > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally protected.

                  When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow. If I
                  was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                  back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.

                  >
                  > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time following the
                  > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't expect
                  > success every time and be prepared to have little success at first and
                  > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard when you
                  > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to eat your
                  > plants after all that work.
                  >
                  > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I suspect
                  > he had the same problems.
                  >
                  > Steve

                  Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                • torskel87
                  Hello everyone This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let this occur
                  Message 8 of 15 , May 10, 2006
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                    Hello everyone
                    This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                    plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                    this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                    (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                    be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                    Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                    Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                    not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                    daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                    seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                    other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                    ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                    completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                    eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                    mixed seed in a natural way .???
                    Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                    hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                    really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                    them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                    walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                    allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                    humidity, somebody has experience with this.???
                    Any advice will be helpfull
                    Thanks
                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > Hello Steve,
                    >
                    > Thank you for suggestions.
                    >
                    > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                    suffering
                    > > from the same fate.
                    >
                    > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                    there.
                    >
                    > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                    > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                    just
                    > >what
                    > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                    other
                    > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                    > >need there will be some left for you.
                    >
                    > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                    dug
                    > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                    > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                    my
                    > seedlings are thriving!
                    >
                    > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                    seeds I
                    > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                    > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                    > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                    but
                    > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                    the
                    > 'pests' yet!
                    >
                    > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                    > > be protected until they get started.
                    >
                    > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                    right
                    > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                    tracks I
                    > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                    couple
                    > lettuce from seedballs.
                    >
                    > >If you plant into a standing crop
                    > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                    from the
                    > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                    cut crop
                    > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                    protected.
                    >
                    > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                    If I
                    > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                    > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                    following the
                    > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                    expect
                    > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                    first and
                    > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                    when you
                    > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                    eat your
                    > > plants after all that work.
                    > >
                    > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                    suspect
                    > > he had the same problems.
                    > >
                    > > Steve
                    >
                    > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                    >
                  • Niels Corfield
                    ... * Seed Saving and varietal purity* A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few of them in one place, doesn t matter where but
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jun 9, 2006
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                      torskel87 wrote:

                      > Hello everyone
                      > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                      > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                      > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                      > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                      > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                      > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                      > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                      > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                      > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                      > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                      > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                      > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                      > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                      > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                      > mixed seed in a natural way .???

                      *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                      A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few
                      of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                      with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off these
                      plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have not
                      done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                      (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                      At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                      whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                      excluded_. This last point is key.
                      This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for our
                      needs.
                      _HSL website:_
                      http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php


                      Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                      Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                      other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                      can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to another.
                      At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                      Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on the
                      same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transfering
                      pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                      it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                      Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are hand-pollinating
                      _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.

                      __
                      _

                      > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                      > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                      > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                      > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                      > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                      > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                      > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???

                      *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                      *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                      have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                      labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                      Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                      (tilling, cultivating or removing vegitative cover) you will not have a
                      major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                      language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil" rather
                      than preventing /soil erosion/.
                      "doing" options include:
                      -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                      contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                      -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                      intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                      lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                      -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                      be called "alley cropping".
                      -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                      mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.

                      _
                      Links_
                      Vetiver
                      http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                      www.vetiver.com

                      Alleycropping
                      http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                      http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping

                      Maize-Mucuna
                      http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                      http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                      Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                      http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                      *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                      It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                      the contours are.
                      For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                      permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                      It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                      to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                      You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                      might build a terrace.

                      Anyone know any other good resrouces for swales and surveying?
                      Particularly from the permaculture list.

                      *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                      Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                      them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                      different intervals.
                      It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                      "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                      _Greening the Desert
                      http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                      side with the above title)
                      _
                      _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                      the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                      Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                      Or combinations there of.
                      Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                      along the length.

                      There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                      But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                      with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                      few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                      cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.

                      *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                      It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                      available and what is native in your local area.
                      Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                      And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                      _CLimate
                      _What is your regional climate?
                      Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                      frequent is rainfall?
                      _Vegetation_
                      What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                      Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                      perrenially.
                      _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                      Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                      Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                      be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                      _Trees and Fertility_
                      What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                      freely available? To buy or gather?
                      These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                      especially in an upland situation.
                      Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                      are better. And hopefully more available
                      _Resources_
                      How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                      What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                      can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                      labour-force is not available, or needed?
                      For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                      with just 2 people.
                      How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                      gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                      neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?



                      *Some things to Remember*

                      _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                      So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                      the field.

                      _Marking Swales/Contours_
                      Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                      swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                      If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                      I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                      placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                      Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                      the slope would be better than none.

                      When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation networks
                      for further advice.

                      All the best,
                      Niels
                      http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                      http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                      http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                      > Any advice will be helpfull
                      > Thanks
                      > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Hello Steve,
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for suggestions.
                      > >
                      > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                      > suffering
                      > > > from the same fate.
                      > >
                      > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                      > there.
                      > >
                      > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                      > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                      > just
                      > > >what
                      > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                      > other
                      > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                      > > >need there will be some left for you.
                      > >
                      > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                      > dug
                      > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                      > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                      > my
                      > > seedlings are thriving!
                      > >
                      > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                      > seeds I
                      > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                      > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                      > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                      > but
                      > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                      > the
                      > > 'pests' yet!
                      > >
                      > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                      > > > be protected until they get started.
                      > >
                      > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                      > right
                      > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                      > tracks I
                      > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                      > couple
                      > > lettuce from seedballs.
                      > >
                      > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                      > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                      > from the
                      > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                      > cut crop
                      > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                      > protected.
                      > >
                      > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                      > If I
                      > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                      > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                      > following the
                      > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                      > expect
                      > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                      > first and
                      > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                      > when you
                      > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                      > eat your
                      > > > plants after all that work.
                      > > >
                      > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                      > suspect
                      > > > he had the same problems.
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve
                      > >
                      > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SPONSORED LINKS
                      > Organic gardening
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                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=YsGmRgMdYxGW22IATEdE7A>
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                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+supply&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=FZTkuZgVmjZaw_hVDQ0JLQ>
                      >
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                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=qzydEBxdFvveJXr9hAbldw>
                      > Organic seed
                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+seed&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=D_Tbyi65sWutvj-7sWT97A>
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                      > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Masanobu+fukuoka&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=3IpiF0vypPDUJ35tBfcXvQ>
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Niels Corfield
                      Hi Torskel, See if any of this info helps. All the best, Niels http://del.icio.us/entrailer http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                      Message 10 of 15 , Jun 13, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Torskel,

                        See if any of this info helps.

                        All the best,
                        Niels
                        http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                        http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                        torskel87 wrote:

                        > Hello everyone
                        > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                        > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                        > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                        > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                        > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                        > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                        > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                        > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                        > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                        > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                        > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                        > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                        > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                        > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                        > mixed seed in a natural way .???

                        *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                        A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a few
                        of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                        with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off these
                        plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have not
                        done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                        (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                        At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                        whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                        excluded_. This last point is key.
                        This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for our
                        needs.
                        _HSL website:_
                        http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php
                        Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                        Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                        other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                        can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to another.
                        At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                        Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on the
                        same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transferring
                        pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                        it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                        Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are hand-pollinating
                        _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.


                        _Or you could just have a garden bed near the house specifically for
                        seed saving, then just add these seeds to seed balls for next season.
                        _
                        _

                        > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                        > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                        > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                        > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                        > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                        > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                        > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???

                        *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                        *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                        have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                        labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                        Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                        (tilling, cultivating or removing vegetative cover) you will not have a
                        major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                        language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil" rather
                        than preventing /soil erosion/.
                        "doing" options include:
                        -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                        contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                        -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                        intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                        lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                        -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                        be called "alley cropping".
                        -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                        mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.

                        _
                        Links_
                        Vetiver
                        http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                        www.vetiver.com

                        Alleycropping
                        http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                        http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping

                        Maize-Mucuna
                        http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                        http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                        Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                        http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                        *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                        It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                        the contours are.
                        For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                        permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                        It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                        to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                        You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                        might build a terrace.

                        Anyone know any other good resources for swales and surveying?
                        Particularly from the permaculture list.

                        *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                        Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                        them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                        different intervals.
                        It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                        "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                        _Greening the Desert
                        http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                        side with the above title)
                        _
                        _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                        the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                        Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                        Or combinations there of.
                        Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                        along the length.

                        There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                        But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                        with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                        few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                        cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.

                        *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                        It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                        available and what is native in your local area.
                        Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                        And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                        _Climate
                        _What is your regional climate?
                        Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                        frequent is rainfall?
                        _Vegetation_
                        What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                        Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                        perrenially.
                        _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                        Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                        Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                        be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                        _Trees and Fertility_
                        What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                        freely available? To buy or gather?
                        These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                        especially in an upland situation.
                        Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                        are better. And hopefully more available
                        _Resources_
                        How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                        What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                        can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                        labour-force is not available, or needed?
                        For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                        with just 2 people.
                        How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                        gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                        neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?



                        *Some things to Remember*

                        _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                        So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                        the field.

                        _Marking Swales/Contours_
                        Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                        swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                        If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                        I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                        placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                        Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                        the slope would be better than none.

                        When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation networks
                        for further advice.

                        All the best,
                        Niels
                        http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                        http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                        http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/



                        > Any advice will be helpfull
                        > Thanks
                        > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Hello Steve,
                        > >
                        > > Thank you for suggestions.
                        > >
                        > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                        > suffering
                        > > > from the same fate.
                        > >
                        > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                        > there.
                        > >
                        > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                        > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                        > just
                        > > >what
                        > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                        > other
                        > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                        > > >need there will be some left for you.
                        > >
                        > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                        > dug
                        > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                        > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                        > my
                        > > seedlings are thriving!
                        > >
                        > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                        > seeds I
                        > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                        > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                        > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                        > but
                        > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                        > the
                        > > 'pests' yet!
                        > >
                        > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                        > > > be protected until they get started.
                        > >
                        > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                        > right
                        > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                        > tracks I
                        > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                        > couple
                        > > lettuce from seedballs.
                        > >
                        > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                        > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                        > from the
                        > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                        > cut crop
                        > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                        > protected.
                        > >
                        > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                        > If I
                        > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                        > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                        > following the
                        > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                        > expect
                        > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                        > first and
                        > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                        > when you
                        > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                        > eat your
                        > > > plants after all that work.
                        > > >
                        > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                        > suspect
                        > > > he had the same problems.
                        > > >
                        > > > Steve
                        > >
                        > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                        >
                      • torskel87
                        Hi Niels thanks for your advice. A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and
                        Message 11 of 15 , Jul 3 5:59 PM
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                          Hi Niels
                          thanks for your advice.
                          A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing
                          daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and brassicas.So when
                          daikon blooms it will be pollinated only by other daikon .

                          In relation to the terraces I think that as you said, it´s to much
                          labor, and the first years the soil of the place where the terraces
                          were builded gets very poor and won´t produce a good harvest because
                          the intensive movement of soil from one place to other.
                          So the option might be build terraces of slow formation with
                          vegetation at the contours, the problem with this is that until you
                          get a terrace, is very difficult to have crops in that place because
                          the inclination of the land and the poor absortion of water unables
                          good yields.The advantage of making a terrace with an earthen wall is
                          the possibility of sowing that place inmediatly, but I will have to
                          use compost to improve soil, what represents to much labor.

                          So I will try both ways and see wich works better.
                          The conditions of the place are:
                          Very high in altitude 9200 ft, very humid and cloudy, the surruondings
                          are cloud forest and highlands. The land has never been used for
                          agriculture, just for grazing, it used to be forest, but was cleared
                          40 years ago, the soil is really good, 180 cm of top soil.There are
                          periods of heavy rain fall, and periods of drought(6 months of rain, 6
                          months of drought)

                          The seed is not difficult to find, there are lots of seed in the
                          surrounding forest.The forest in this slopes is very dense, humid, and
                          by the afternoons it gets full of fog.

                          There are many native species that are nitrogen fixing, and other
                          species that help to water retention.

                          What I Would like to know is how to make contours, do you make them
                          following the level curves, using a level.With what spacing do you
                          plant in the contours???? Do you plant trees also? Don´t the trees
                          create to much shade for the plants???What spacing do you use between
                          contours???

                          In ralation to the grazing I think that I will have some llamas
                          because they don´t damage the land as cattle, sheep and goats.As I am
                          in the middle of the Andes, llamas also are the only efficient animals
                          at this altitude, they can provide wool, excellent manure, and they
                          help to regenarate dgradeted lands.

                          All your advice will be helpfull
                          Thanks
                          Miguel

                          > torskel87 wrote:
                          >
                          > > Hello everyone
                          > > This is Miguel from Ecuador,I am very interested in letting my
                          > > plants to reseed by themselfs, and now my doughts are how to let
                          > > this occur naturally, because here there are not harsh winters
                          > > (there is not snow) and when the plants go to seed most of it will
                          > > be eaten by birds,so might it be better to make seedballs.??
                          > > Other question is how to do to obtain daikon seeds, I sow lots of
                          > > Daikon in the winter, in some places I put a clover crop, in others
                          > > not but I had the same results, I had a really good harvest, some
                          > > daikons weighted more than 2 kl, I let some daikon and they went to
                          > > seed, but close to them there were lots of mustard, wild radish, and
                          > > other wild brassicas, most of the in flower and with lots bees,
                          > > ladybugs,, pollinating them,so I thought that it was something
                          > > completly natural, in this way new species will born, but I want to
                          > > eat daikon not a mix of everything,how would be a way to get not
                          > > mixed seed in a natural way .???
                          >
                          > *"Seed Saving" and varietal purity*
                          > A method for saving pure seeds from the Daikon is probably to grow a
                          few
                          > of them in one place, doesn't matter where but a few plants together
                          > with no other brassicas around them. Then you will need to net off
                          these
                          > plants, and now the tricky bit. I will say at this point that I have
                          not
                          > done this my self but have seen examples at The Heritage Seeds Library
                          > (HSL), UK and in a book from Kokkopelli.
                          > At the HSL they use dedicated pollinating insects which spend their
                          > whole lives inside small plastic tunnels, _all other insects are
                          > excluded_. This last point is key.
                          > This example however they buy insect eggs. So maybe not suitable for
                          our
                          > needs.
                          > _HSL website:_
                          > http://www.gardenorganic.org.uk/hsl/whos_who.php
                          >
                          >
                          > Another method is to hand-pollinate.
                          > Again you will need to net-off the radish from other brassica, though
                          > other plants are fine. Then at a time when the plants are in flower you
                          > can use a small paint brush to transfer pollen from one plant to
                          another.
                          > At this point I will ask a question of the group.
                          > Are monoescious? By this I mean are there male and female flowers on
                          the
                          > same plant? If this is the case then you can get away with transfering
                          > pollen from male to female flowers on _the same plant._ However I think
                          > it would probably better to do it from another plant. Not essential.
                          > Do remember _no insects can enter your net when you are
                          hand-pollinating
                          > _or at any time during flowering. Net must remain _until seed is set.
                          >
                          > __
                          > _
                          >
                          > > Other thing that I´ve been wondering about is how to cultivate in
                          > > hilly land in a natural way, I am starting my natural farm in a
                          > > really hilly land, so I was thinking in making terraces, but to do
                          > > them I will need to move a lot of soil,to make earthen banks,
                          > > walls,and level the ground, might it be naturally to do this ???
                          > > allthough I don´t see other way to controll erosion, and retain
                          > > humidity, somebody has experience with this.???
                          >
                          > *Upland cultivation and Soil Erosion
                          > *First of all, I think that you should _not _make terraces. Again, I
                          > have no experience personally but it is clear they are extremely
                          > labour-intensive to build and will always need your attention.
                          > Secondly if you are sticking with Fukuoka's advice and not digging
                          > (tilling, cultivating or removing vegitative cover) you will not have a
                          > major soil "retention" issue. I use this term so that we can stay, in
                          > language, in the positive. We are "keeping soil"/"retaining soil"
                          rather
                          > than preventing /soil erosion/.
                          > "doing" options include:
                          > -Swales: ditches laid, or dug "along
                          > contour" (across the slope). i.e. the opposite of down slope.
                          > -Contour hedges: dense vegetation planted at regular
                          > intervals along contour. e.g. Vetiver grass (non-invasive, infertile,
                          > lots of biomass) or Sweet clover.
                          > -Contour planting: trees or shrubs planted as above. Can
                          > be called "alley cropping".
                          > -Mulching/Cover crops: the use of vigorous cover crops to produce
                          > mulch (e.g. _Maize-mucuna_) or be a companion to your crops.
                          >
                          > _
                          > Links_
                          > Vetiver
                          > http://www.vetiver.com/TVN_greenEng.pdf (500KB download) Vetiver Hedge
                          > www.vetiver.com
                          >
                          > Alleycropping
                          >
                          http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=alleycropping&btnG=Search
                          > http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Alley-Cropping
                          >
                          > Maize-Mucuna
                          > http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                          > http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html
                          >
                          > Agroforestry (Agrofloresta)
                          > http://www.fazendasaoluiz.com/agrofloresta.htm (Portuguese)
                          > *Contours: MArking and Measurement*
                          > It is very important to accurately survey the field to find out where
                          > the contours are.
                          > For this a number of simple tools can be constructed. They are standard
                          > permaculture tools: an "a-frame" is perhaps the simplest.
                          > It is not important where exactly your contours are measured from and
                          > to. Only that they _are the same height all the way along_.
                          > You can decide on the spacing for yourself, probably narrower than you
                          > might build a terrace.
                          >
                          > Anyone know any other good resrouces for swales and surveying?
                          > Particularly from the permaculture list.
                          >
                          > *Strips, Contours, Plants and Combining Them*
                          > Once you have marked your contours then you can decide what to do on
                          > them: swales, hedges, tree etc or combination of all of these at
                          > different intervals.
                          > It is no problem to have trees and hedge plants in the same contour
                          > "strip" and plant them into a swale.
                          > _Greening the Desert
                          > http://www.permaculture.org.au/_ (click on the image in the right hand
                          > side with the above title)
                          > _
                          > _You might have trees planted every other contour strip, so they shade
                          > the slope and the in-between swale/hedge.
                          > Like tree-hedge-tree-hedge. With each one having a swale in it as well.
                          > Or combinations there of.
                          > Perhaps put in a _small pond _every few swales, at different places
                          > along the length.
                          >
                          > There are so many variables. This is where it gets really exciting.
                          > But starting small, you could dig just one or two swales and plant them
                          > with fast growing cover crops like vetiver or sweet clover and just a
                          > few trees, or tree seeds, along the length. Then next winter take
                          > cuttings from the trees and start to spread them out along the contour.
                          >
                          > *Uses, Outputs and Produce and _Questions_*
                          > It would be useful to talk about what plants and seeds you have
                          > available and what is native in your local area.
                          > Upland production of trees will be for: fuel, fodder and food etc.
                          > And hedges will provide: mulch, fodder.
                          > _CLimate
                          > _What is your regional climate?
                          > Average rainfall? Do you have heavy rains? Then periods of drought? How
                          > frequent is rainfall?
                          > _Vegetation_
                          > What is the vegetation like on these slopes?
                          > Are there many trees already? What kind of cover exists? Seasonally and
                          > perrenially.
                          > _Condition of Land and Previous Uses_
                          > Is the land degraded? Has it been used for agriculture before?
                          > Has there been grazing? Will you wish to graze it? If yes: then will it
                          > be Seasonally, in rotation or permanent? And with what animals?
                          > _Trees and Fertility_
                          > What are your native nitrogen-fixing trees and shrubs? Is there seeds
                          > freely available? To buy or gather?
                          > These trees will provide the back-bone of any long-term productivity,
                          > especially in an upland situation.
                          > Some examples are: Inga, Leucana, Wattles. But natives or local species
                          > are better. And hopefully more available
                          > _Resources_
                          > How many people can you count on to work on your project?
                          > What is the usual minimum people you work with day-to-day? What tasks
                          > can you do that will contribute to the "upland project" when your large
                          > labour-force is not available, or needed?
                          > For example, it will be perfectly possible to do the contour marking
                          > with just 2 people.
                          > How much seeds can you get your hands on? How long will it take to
                          > gather/buy? How much space do I have for storage? Do you, or a
                          > neighbour, have experience with handling tree seeds or cuttings?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > *Some things to Remember*
                          >
                          > _Mulch = (fertile) soil_
                          > So you can never have enough of it. But remember you have to grow it in
                          > the field.
                          >
                          > _Marking Swales/Contours_
                          > Remember to mark your contours well. If you are not going to dig your
                          > swale/plant contour hedges on the same day.
                          > If the markers get blown away or eaten it is some time wasted.
                          > I will ask Geoff Lawton the question of how many and what spacing and
                          > placement is appropriate in the first phase.
                          > Though I should have thought one complete and planted-up swale half up
                          > the slope would be better than none.
                          >
                          > When you reply This mail will be passed on to other internation
                          networks
                          > for further advice.
                          >
                          > All the best,
                          > Niels
                          > http://del.icio.us/entrailer
                          > http://nocompost.blogspot.com/
                          > http://www.flickr.com/photos/65387153@N00/
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > Any advice will be helpfull
                          > > Thanks
                          > > --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "poojyum" <poojyum@>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Hello Steve,
                          > > >
                          > > > Thank you for suggestions.
                          > > >
                          > > > > If you put your seedlings in a row, they are prone to all
                          > > suffering
                          > > > > from the same fate.
                          > > >
                          > > > I dont put seedlings in a row. I sow seed at random - here and
                          > > there.
                          > > >
                          > > > >If you put your seedlings in an area with no other
                          > > > > growing plants, they will be targeted by pests. If you plant
                          > > just
                          > > > >what
                          > > > > you need, that's not sharing with nature.
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > If you put your seedlings in a mixed growing environment with
                          > > other
                          > > > > plants they are partially hidden. If you grow many more than you
                          > > > >need there will be some left for you.
                          > > >
                          > > > My plot is full of so called 'weeds'. There was 1 area where I had
                          > > dug
                          > > > due to pressure from a fellow plot holder. I regret doing that. And
                          > > > that area doesnt have too many plants. Unfortunately in that area
                          > > my
                          > > > seedlings are thriving!
                          > > >
                          > > > I'm not planting only what I need. I dont even count how many
                          > > seeds I
                          > > > sow. I sow a lot. For example I sowed probably 50 broadbeans seeds
                          > > > here and there. Of them about 10 have come up and 3 are standing
                          > > > today. The 3 are eaten up here and there. I am happy for the 3 yes
                          > > but
                          > > > it seems they are there only because they have not been found by
                          > > the
                          > > > 'pests' yet!
                          > > >
                          > > > >If you plant from seedballs they will
                          > > > > be protected until they get started.
                          > > >
                          > > > With seedballs I have had very poor result. Probably its not the
                          > > right
                          > > > clay I dont know. I picked up clay from a molehill along the
                          > > tracks I
                          > > > cycle thru. It seemed soft, natural & local. I had 1 spinach, a
                          > > couple
                          > > > lettuce from seedballs.
                          > > >
                          > > > >If you plant into a standing crop
                          > > > > and cut the crop after yours gets started they will take off
                          > > from the
                          > > > > increase in light and space. If you put the litter from that
                          > > cut crop
                          > > > > back over your plants as mulch they will be additionally
                          > > protected.
                          > > >
                          > > > When I sow a seed, I cut back on the grasses/'weeds' a bit & sow.
                          > > If I
                          > > > was transplanting a seedling, I cut back and as you suggest put it
                          > > > back as mulch to hide them and to save some moisture.
                          > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The trick is to plant the right plants at the right time
                          > > following the
                          > > > > right crop and cutting the overgrowth at the right time. Don't
                          > > expect
                          > > > > success every time and be prepared to have little success at
                          > > first and
                          > > > > more as you figure out what works for you. OK, this is hard
                          > > when you
                          > > > > have to wait a year between experiments and you are hoping to
                          > > eat your
                          > > > > plants after all that work.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Fukuoka had a kitchen garden as well as the farming fields. I
                          > > suspect
                          > > > > he had the same problems.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Steve
                          > > >
                          > > > Thank you for writing. I will keep experimenting.
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > SPONSORED LINKS
                          > > Organic gardening
                          > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=lsZ__pr5FoKO4VINPmunKQ>

                          > > Organic gardening pest control
                          > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=YsGmRgMdYxGW22IATEdE7A>

                          > > Organic gardening supply
                          > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+gardening+supply&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=FZTkuZgVmjZaw_hVDQ0JLQ>

                          > >
                          > > Organic vegetable gardening
                          > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=qzydEBxdFvveJXr9hAbldw>

                          > > Organic seed
                          > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Organic+seed&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=D_Tbyi65sWutvj-7sWT97A>

                          > > Masanobu fukuoka
                          > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Masanobu+fukuoka&w1=Organic+gardening&w2=Organic+gardening+pest+control&w3=Organic+gardening+supply&w4=Organic+vegetable+gardening&w5=Organic+seed&w6=Masanobu+fukuoka&c=6&s=162&.sig=3IpiF0vypPDUJ35tBfcXvQ>

                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > >
                          > > * Visit your group "fukuoka_farming
                          > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming>" on the web.
                          > >
                          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                        • Niels Corfield
                          Miguel, Please see below for replies to specific questions. Cheers, Niels Hi Niels thanks for your advice. A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon
                          Message 12 of 15 , Jul 10 3:01 PM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Miguel,

                            Please see below for replies to specific questions.

                            Cheers,
                            Niels

                            Hi Niels
                            thanks for your advice.
                            A simple method that I´ve find to get pure daikon seed, it´s sowing
                            daikon after the blooming of the wild radishes and brassicas.So when
                            daikon blooms it will be pollinated only by other daikon .

                            In relation to the terraces I think that as you said, it´s to much
                            labor, and the first years the soil of the place where the terraces
                            were builded gets very poor and won´t produce a good harvest because
                            the intensive movement of soil from one place to other.
                            So the option might be build terraces of slow formation with
                            vegetation at the contours, the problem with this is that until you
                            get a terrace, is very difficult to have crops in that place because
                            the inclination of the land and the poor absortion of water unables
                            good yields.The advantage of making a terrace with an earthen wall is
                            the possibility of sowing that place inmediatly, but I will have to
                            use compost to improve soil, what represents to much labor.

                            Perhaps it is worth accepting lower yields and longer time-frames along
                            with reduced labour-issues.
                            Cover crops, seeds, mulching.
                            What state are the fields in now? Weeds etc.
                            Mucuna handles most weeds pretty well.
                            No probs with erosion with mucuna mulch.

                            So I will try both ways and see wich works better.
                            The conditions of the place are:
                            Very high in altitude 9200 ft, very humid and cloudy, the surruondings
                            are cloud forest and highlands. The land has never been used for
                            agriculture, just for grazing, it used to be forest, but was cleared
                            40 years ago, the soil is really good, 180 cm of top soil.There are
                            periods of heavy rain fall, and periods of drought(6 months of rain, 6
                            months of drought)

                            How about mucuna or lupin as cover crops?
                            Lupin is good for your altitude and mucnua-maize production is done on
                            mega-slopes.
                            Link: http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Maize-Mucuna
                            http://www.tropag-fieldtrip.cornell.edu/Thurston_TA/pslashmulch.html

                            The seed is not difficult to find, there are lots of seed in the
                            surrounding forest.The forest in this slopes is very dense, humid, and
                            by the afternoons it gets full of fog.

                            Not all seed is equal, try to select seed from trees growing in a
                            similar space to the one you will using, and look for the healthiest
                            specimens. Probably worth getting someone into trees to come with you.
                            Some seed will need preparing before it will germinate.
                            If in doubt ask about this one.
                            Scarifying, stratifying etc.

                            There are many native species that are nitrogen fixing, and other
                            species that help to water retention.

                            Get them all. Check out Ernst Gotsch's seed collections. We are looking
                            for big plastic coke bottles full of one variety of seed.
                            And clay to make seedballs.
                            http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Seed-Balls

                            What I Would like to know is how to make contours, do you make them
                            following the level curves, using a level.
                            Surveying can be done with either an a-frame or the liquid filled-level
                            device, I forget what it's called.
                            Link:
                            http://images.google.co.uk/images?svnum=10&hs=QsJ&hl=en&lr=&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=a-frame+permaculture&btnG=Search

                            With what spacing do you plant in the contours????
                            ---Not sure why not email Geoff Lawton?
                            http://permaculture-swicki.eurekster.com/Geoff+Lawton/ or
                            http://www.permaculture.org.au/

                            Though I think it not nearly as critical as getting a good level.
                            Am chatting with him on this topic, though he busy, so will be a while.
                            Watch his video "Greening the Desert", very informative.

                            Do you plant trees also?
                            Yes, see Ernst Gotsch's model.
                            http://del.icio.us/entrailer/Ernst-G%C3%B6tsch
                            Pics English Translate
                            http://www.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.agrofloresta.net%2Ffotos%2Findex.htm&langpair=pt%7Cen&hl=en&ie=UTF8
                            Portuguese
                            http://www.agrofloresta.net/fotos/index.htm

                            Related Project -Same Methods
                            http://del.icio.us/entrailer/agrofloresta

                            Don´t the trees create to much shade for the plants???
                            Yes they do but not for a few years, this is a resource to work with,
                            that you can use shape the landscape.
                            Also there are many shade-tolerant plants. The system can grow, develop.
                            Trees can be pruned, for mulch and firewood or forage.
                            Trees give fruits also.

                            What spacing do you use between contours???
                            Not sure. Think depends on resources.
                            I would go for vegetation as the main regen tool.
                            Is rain catchment a big issue?
                            How long is dry season?

                            In ralation to the grazing I think that I will have some llamas
                            because they don´t damage the land as cattle, sheep and goats.As I am
                            in the middle of the Andes, llamas also are the only efficient animals
                            at this altitude, they can provide wool, excellent manure, and they
                            help to regenarate dgradeted lands.

                            All your advice will be helpfull
                            Thanks
                            Miguel


                            Agroforestry Links:
                            http://www.google.co.uk/search?hs=uAz&hl=en&safe=off&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla%3Aen-GB%3Aofficial_s&q=regenerative+analog+forestry+in+brazil&btnG=Search&meta=
                            http://www.agroforestry.net/pubs/seeing_forest.html
                          • Raju Titus
                            Cover crops in no-till hedge against drought Grant Tribune Sentinel Not only can cover crops planted in no-till fields fix nitrogen in the short term, they can
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 13, 2009
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                              Cover crops in no-till hedge against drought
                              Grant Tribune Sentinel
                              Not only can cover crops planted in no-till fields fix nitrogen in the
                              short term, they can also reduce soil erosion and mitigate the effects of
                              drought in ...
                              <http://www.granttribune.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=1392:cover-crops-in-no-till-hedge-against-drought&catid=35:ag-news&Itemid=55>
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