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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Ethics, Ethanol and Land Supporting Livestock

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  • Bill Maxwell
    My apologies sir, but I beg to differ with your presentation. First of all, producing more plants for ethanol will not help the situation. In fact, odds are
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 1, 2006
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      My apologies sir, but I beg to differ with your presentation.

      First of all, producing more plants for ethanol will not help the
      situation. In fact, odds are putting more fuel in the equation will
      make it far worse (which is the heart of Jevon's Paradox
      <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>).

      Second, we have enough food in the world right now. Due to the Green
      Revolution <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_revolution>, the carrying
      capacity of our species has been raised to nine billion, a number that
      will certainly be reached if things keep going as they are. In fact,
      let's say we all kicked the meat habit and went to the lowest common
      denominator (bread and water). If we farmed every acre of this world,
      we would be able to support 50 Billion people
      <http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=65&terms=>,
      but at what cost?

      It's not about meat-eating. It's not about getting new, more
      'effective' fuels. It's about having a different vision. That's what
      Fukuoka had and why he's had such a time transmitting it to everyone else.

      Best

      Bill Maxwell

      John Warner wrote:

      >It seems clear that land used to grow feedstock for ethonol manufacture reduces
      >land available to grow food. This, essentially, takes food from the mouths of
      >the hungry.
      >
      >If the present US government is not interested in conserving liquid fuels--in
      >favor of high tech and more politically rewarding solutions to oil addiction--I
      >would then like to suggest that we use taxpayer supported public relations to
      >reduce the consumption of meat. This might also be done on a voluntary basis.
      >In this way each kilocalorie of meat NOT consumed would free up 10 kilocalories
      >of grain for ethanol feedstock. This is in accordance energy loss as it flows
      >through ecosystems from producer plants.
      >
      >In this way we could continue to drive our SUVs to Starbucks with a clean
      >conscience.
      >
      >Good wishes,
      >
      >John Warner, Madera Whole Systems Agriculture near Fresno, California
      >Now promoting the reading of David Holmgren's 2002 book,
      >"Permaculture--Principles & Pathways Beyond Sustainability"
      >http://www.wholesystemsag.org
      >
      >


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Sergio Montinola
      Dear Bill, Fukuoka is ideal but do you believe that this system is attainable? The world is too far from the ideal? I am afaraid that Fukuoka will have to pass
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 1, 2006
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        Dear Bill,

        Fukuoka is ideal but do you believe that this system
        is attainable? The world is too far from the ideal?

        I am afaraid that Fukuoka will have to pass away and
        the world will contnue to deteriorate until its total
        collapse which will never happen because thare is
        still a Supreme Being and a Creator that watches and
        controls all things and all mankind.

        Serge M.





        --- Bill Maxwell <true_tom@...> wrote:

        > My apologies sir, but I beg to differ with your
        > presentation.
        >
        > First of all, producing more plants for ethanol will
        > not help the
        > situation. In fact, odds are putting more fuel in
        > the equation will
        > make it far worse (which is the heart of Jevon's
        > Paradox
        > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>).
        >
        > Second, we have enough food in the world right now.
        > Due to the Green
        > Revolution
        > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_revolution>, the
        > carrying
        > capacity of our species has been raised to nine
        > billion, a number that
        > will certainly be reached if things keep going as
        > they are. In fact,
        > let's say we all kicked the meat habit and went to
        > the lowest common
        > denominator (bread and water). If we farmed every
        > acre of this world,
        > we would be able to support 50 Billion people
        >
        <http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=65&terms=>,
        >
        > but at what cost?
        >
        > It's not about meat-eating. It's not about getting
        > new, more
        > 'effective' fuels. It's about having a different
        > vision. That's what
        > Fukuoka had and why he's had such a time
        > transmitting it to everyone else.
        >
        > Best
        >
        > Bill Maxwell
        >
        > John Warner wrote:
        >
        > >It seems clear that land used to grow feedstock for
        > ethonol manufacture reduces
        > >land available to grow food. This, essentially,
        > takes food from the mouths of
        > >the hungry.
        > >
        > >If the present US government is not interested in
        > conserving liquid fuels--in
        > >favor of high tech and more politically rewarding
        > solutions to oil addiction--I
        > >would then like to suggest that we use taxpayer
        > supported public relations to
        > >reduce the consumption of meat. This might also be
        > done on a voluntary basis.
        > >In this way each kilocalorie of meat NOT consumed
        > would free up 10 kilocalories
        > >of grain for ethanol feedstock. This is in
        > accordance energy loss as it flows
        > >through ecosystems from producer plants.
        > >
        > >In this way we could continue to drive our SUVs to
        > Starbucks with a clean
        > >conscience.
        > >
        > >Good wishes,
        > >
        > >John Warner, Madera Whole Systems Agriculture near
        > Fresno, California
        > >Now promoting the reading of David Holmgren's 2002
        > book,
        > >"Permaculture--Principles & Pathways Beyond
        > Sustainability"
        > >http://www.wholesystemsag.org
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been
        > removed]
        >
        >


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      • Bill Maxwell
        My apologies for taking so long to reply. Do I believe Fukuoka s system is attainable? Absolutely. I m going to dive into metaphor here. Fukuoka-sama found
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 19, 2006
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          My apologies for taking so long to reply. Do I believe Fukuoka's system
          is attainable? Absolutely.

          I'm going to dive into metaphor here. Fukuoka-sama found the song of
          nature. He found that we don't have to force our song on it, we just
          have to find a way to sing with what we've got in front of us. Learn to
          recognize the melody and then dance to it. He tried to express this in
          a practical manner to others but many just said "Oh! It's a new way of
          farming!" and missed the point that he was trying to teach them how to sing.

          The native people who lived where I live came here about 3,000 years
          ago. They found a way to shape the entire landscape so that it would
          both human-friendly and 'world' friendly at the same time. The
          Spaniards were astonished at "God's Bounty" and described the whole area
          as one huge park. They missed the obvious conclusion that the natives
          were the ones who had shaped the land that way. Shaped it perhaps too
          hard a word, though. Danced is more appropriate.

          Is the world too far away from his ideal? Well, I can't speak for the
          world but I can suggest that, for us, we're not necessarily that far
          from the ideal. If you've ever noticed what happens when a plot of land
          is left untended, life usually returns with a vengeance. The key is to
          observe what is growing there (and understanding why what's growing
          there shows you about the nature of that land) and then know what kinds
          of plants to encourage in order to nourish the land into a fertile shape.

          As far as the religious aspects of it all, I'll avoid the subject. Just
          understand this. If things go badly for civilization, then it behooves
          people to understand Fukuoka's 'song' because life's rebirth doesn't
          have to be amicable to mankind. If things go well for civilization,
          then it's good to understand Fukuoka's work because it's a healthier way
          of looking at the world in general.

          Best

          Bill Maxwell

          Sergio Montinola wrote:

          >Dear Bill,
          >
          >Fukuoka is ideal but do you believe that this system
          >is attainable? The world is too far from the ideal?
          >
          >I am afaraid that Fukuoka will have to pass away and
          >the world will contnue to deteriorate until its total
          >collapse which will never happen because thare is
          >still a Supreme Being and a Creator that watches and
          >controls all things and all mankind.
          >
          >Serge M.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >--- Bill Maxwell <true_tom@...> wrote:
          >
          > > My apologies sir, but I beg to differ with your
          > > presentation.
          > >
          > > First of all, producing more plants for ethanol will
          > > not help the
          > > situation. In fact, odds are putting more fuel in
          > > the equation will
          > > make it far worse (which is the heart of Jevon's
          > > Paradox
          > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jevons_paradox>).
          > >
          > > Second, we have enough food in the world right now.
          > > Due to the Green
          > > Revolution
          > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_revolution>, the
          > > carrying
          > > capacity of our species has been raised to nine
          > > billion, a number that
          > > will certainly be reached if things keep going as
          > > they are. In fact,
          > > let's say we all kicked the meat habit and went to
          > > the lowest common
          > > denominator (bread and water). If we farmed every
          > > acre of this world,
          > > we would be able to support 50 Billion people
          > >
          ><http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=65&terms=
          ><http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl?articleID=65&terms=>>,
          > >
          > > but at what cost?
          > >
          > > It's not about meat-eating. It's not about getting
          > > new, more
          > > 'effective' fuels. It's about having a different
          > > vision. That's what
          > > Fukuoka had and why he's had such a time
          > > transmitting it to everyone else.
          > >
          > > Best
          > >
          > > Bill Maxwell
          > >
          > > John Warner wrote:
          > >
          > > >It seems clear that land used to grow feedstock for
          > > ethonol manufacture reduces
          > > >land available to grow food. This, essentially,
          > > takes food from the mouths of
          > > >the hungry.
          > > >
          > > >If the present US government is not interested in
          > > conserving liquid fuels--in
          > > >favor of high tech and more politically rewarding
          > > solutions to oil addiction--I
          > > >would then like to suggest that we use taxpayer
          > > supported public relations to
          > > >reduce the consumption of meat. This might also be
          > > done on a voluntary basis.
          > > >In this way each kilocalorie of meat NOT consumed
          > > would free up 10 kilocalories
          > > >of grain for ethanol feedstock. This is in
          > > accordance energy loss as it flows
          > > >through ecosystems from producer plants.
          > > >
          > > >In this way we could continue to drive our SUVs to
          > > Starbucks with a clean
          > > >conscience.
          > > >
          > > >Good wishes,
          > > >
          > > >John Warner, Madera Whole Systems Agriculture near
          > > Fresno, California
          > > >Now promoting the reading of David Holmgren's 2002
          > > book,
          > > >"Permaculture--Principles & Pathways Beyond
          > > Sustainability"
          > > >http://www.wholesystemsag.org
          > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > > removed]
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
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