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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Organic mentality

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  • les landeck
    i being a hard firm believer in passive growing systems (selective organic choices)that cause me much stress when i look at what has been done to our
    Message 1 of 19 , Dec 31, 2004
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      i being a hard firm believer in passive growing
      systems (selective organic choices)that cause me much
      stress when i look at what has been done to our
      overwhelming abundance of resources here. Your point
      of the mentality and understanding is well taken. Need
      to provide in some manor is also understood. Knowledge
      and improving choices over time is what brings change.

      Do Well in the New Year Arun, Les




      --- aksharma@... wrote:

      > HAPPY new year/ERA of
      > Organic Mentality
      >
      > Organized cycle
      > Occupied with
      > diversity
      >
      > Omit competition with
      > Nature
      >
      > It was primarily the mentality which caused ill
      > effects of chemical
      > (conventional) farming and not the chemical itself.
      > It is the mentality
      > and not the technology which decides the direction
      > of development (Atomic
      > energy-both use destructive or constructive).
      > Mentality is the prime infrastructure for success of
      > any plan.
      > Thus for success of organic farming following
      > concepts in the mentality
      > are need to be imbibed.
      >
      > 1.Always seek cooperation of Nature, Native(human,
      > animal, plants) and
      > Neighbor.
      >
      > 2.Use Natural things/products as far as possible
      > naturally ( Neem extract
      > is better than isolated azadirectin).
      >
      > 3. Maintained food chain as far as possible and not
      > to make new food
      > .Human being by nature is not a carnivorous.
      >
      > 4.Organic farming is a Benefit making( by
      > harnessing from nature) and not
      > a Profit making(exploiting nature) venture.
      >
      > 5.Local and Seasonal food may be better for body in
      > a given Social and
      > Climatic conditions.
      >
      > 6.Principals/practices/approaches of physical
      > science may not be every
      > time applicable in biological science because of
      > numerous complicated
      > interactions.
      >
      > Think organically
      > Arun K.Sharma
      > Central Arid Zone Research Institute
      > Jodhpur-342003,INDIA
      > +91 291 2703547 / 2740789
      > a.k_sharma@...
      >
      > A handbook of organic farming ( 626page)-Arun
      > K.Sharma
      >
      >
      >




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    • Andres Rattur
      Hello, everybody! I live near Scandinavia, to the south from Finland, in Estonia! Here grows naturally four species of birch: Betula pendula, Betula pubescens,
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 1, 2005
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        Hello, everybody!

        I live near Scandinavia, to the south from Finland, in Estonia!

        Here grows naturally four species of birch: Betula pendula, Betula pubescens, Betula fruticosa (Betula humilis), Betula nana and of course many introduced species.

        Mainly here in Estonia people take sap from Betula pendula and Acer platanoides (maple). Sap of maple is much sweeter than birch sap. When I have taken sap from birch, I have noticed that, the taste of it depends where current tree grows.

        I have usually collected birch sap by breaking v-shaped branch and putt this branch inside bottle so bottle is hanging on tree.
        Mostly I just drink this sap without making no preparation, but as it was mentioned earlier it is possible to make beer and other drinks. Unfortunately there isn't no such tree with a sap containing enough sugar to produce syrup, like there is in Canada.

        With best whishes,
        Andres Rattur!

        -----------------------------------------
        ITV - Sinu lemmiksaated internetis!
        http://www.itv.ee
      • pollywog
        ... concentrated, highly processed sugar is just as unhealthful as white sugar. Which, to me, means use in moderation only, just as with any sugar. deb In
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 1, 2005
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          ---Not absolute toxicity, but, as Steve Brill says; "This
          concentrated, highly processed sugar is just as unhealthful as white
          sugar."

          Which, to me, means use in moderation only, just as with any sugar. deb

          In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry"
          <instinct@s...> wrote:
          >
          > do you know about any possible toxicity for humans in walnut sap?
          > jean-claude
          >
          >
        • Karri Varpio
          In Finland both B. pendula and B. pubescens are used for taking sap. Usually it is drunk as such, but one book said that it could also be boiled to syrup. It
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 1, 2005
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            In Finland both B. pendula and B. pubescens are used for taking sap. Usually
            it is drunk as such, but one book said that it could also be boiled to
            syrup. It can be frozen or pasteurized to store it longer, but heating of
            course destroys some elements.
            http://www.aurinkolehto.fi/eng/index.htm has developed a method to store it
            without heating, but they keep their method as a secret. (Pages look
            business-orientated, but contain also information about birch sap.)

            Karri

            >
            > Hello, everybody!
            >
            > I live near Scandinavia, to the south from Finland, in Estonia!
            >
            > Here grows naturally four species of birch: Betula pendula,
            > Betula pubescens, Betula fruticosa (Betula humilis), Betula nana
            > and of course many introduced species.
            >
            > Mainly here in Estonia people take sap from Betula pendula and
            > Acer platanoides (maple). Sap of maple is much sweeter than birch
            > sap. When I have taken sap from birch, I have noticed that, the
            > taste of it depends where current tree grows.
            >
            > I have usually collected birch sap by breaking v-shaped branch
            > and putt this branch inside bottle so bottle is hanging on tree.
            > Mostly I just drink this sap without making no preparation, but
            > as it was mentioned earlier it is possible to make beer and other
            > drinks. Unfortunately there isn't no such tree with a sap
            > containing enough sugar to produce syrup, like there is in Canada.
            >
            > With best whishes,
            > Andres Rattur!
            >
            > -----------------------------------------
            > ITV - Sinu lemmiksaated internetis!
            > http://www.itv.ee
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • EinuIf
            ... platanoides (maple). Sap of maple is much sweeter than birch sap. .... Unfortunately there isn t no such tree with a sap containing enough sugar to produce
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 1, 2005
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              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Andres Rattur" <Andre66@h...>
              wrote:
              >
              ....
              > Mainly here in Estonia people take sap from Betula pendula and Acer
              platanoides (maple). Sap of maple is much sweeter than birch sap.
              ....
              Unfortunately there isn't no such tree with a sap containing enough
              sugar to produce syrup, like there is in Canada.

              ----------
              Hello Andres, and everyone.

              Thanks for that Estonian sap-tapping lore.

              About the possibility of your making maple syrup, there, check out
              these links:
              http://www.ibiblio.org/pfaf/cgi-bin/arr_html?Acer+platanoides&CAN=COMIND
              http://www.the-tree.org.uk/BritishTrees/MrsGrieve/mgmaples.htm

              It seems that syrup CAN BE made, and HAS BEEN made from A. platanoides
              ("Norway Maple", to English-speakers). "The concentration of sugar
              [in the sap] is considerably lower than in the sugar maples (A.
              saccharum)", but if you can taste the sweetness of your maple sap then
              making syrup from it might be more practical than you think. (Myself,
              I can scarcely taste any flavour in the raw Bigleaf Maple sap I gather
              -- but my sense of taste might not be the sharpest, as my young nephew
              seems well able to taste the the sweetness of the sap, judging by his
              keeness for it.)

              At any rate, "The sap [of A. platanoides] ... can be concentrated into
              a syrup by boiling off the water", and, "Sugar has been made from the
              sap in Norway and Sweden."

              The second link also lists some other maple species that yield sap for
              "sugar" or other products, including a Scottish maple-wine. The lore,
              therein, is from a 1930's British perspective, with according kinds of
              maple covered.

              (By the way, just to clear away any possible confusion, the second
              link also gives the wrong scientific name, A. saccharinum, for the
              Sugar Maple. The Sugar Maple is really A. saccharum, while A.
              saccharinum is really the Silver Maple, both of them native to eastern
              North America.)

              [|:-{>
            • lucia@lrw.net
              Dear EinuIf, Andres, and Karri - thank you for all the birch tapping info, links, and personal experience stories. ... I m not clear about this. you use the
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 1, 2005
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                Dear EinuIf, Andres, and Karri - thank you for all the birch tapping
                info, links, and personal experience stories.


                On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, Andres Rattur wrote:

                > I have usually collected birch sap by breaking v-shaped branch and
                > putt this branch inside bottle so bottle is hanging on tree.

                I'm not clear about this. you use the branch for a support for the bottle,
                but you still have to tap the tree somehow, right?

                > Mostly I just drink this sap without making no preparation

                I wonder if there are any health benefits to drinking this sap, or is it
                just a sugar high?

                lucia
              • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 1, 2005
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                  <i being a hard firm believer in passive growing
                  systems (selective organic choices)that cause me much
                  stress when i look at what has been done to our
                  overwhelming abundance of resources here. Your point
                  of the mentality and understanding is well taken. Need
                  to provide in some manor is also understood. Knowledge
                  and improving choices over time is what brings change.>

                  could you explain what you mean by passive growing system and selective organic choices ?

                  jean-claude

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Andres Rattur
                  Lucia wrote: I m not clear about this. you use the branch for a support for the bottle, but you still have to tap the tree somehow, right? No I don t tap the
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 2, 2005
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                    Lucia wrote:
                    I'm not clear about this. you use the branch for a support for the bottle, but you still have to tap the tree somehow, right?

                    No I don't tap the tree. I just hang bottles up on the trees branches. It is hard to explain, I tried to draw some picture of it in Paint: http://www.hot.ee/andre66/sap.jpg

                    Explanation:
                    1. I cut or brake two branches, which form V (or Y).
                    2. I press these two branches together, so they can go through bottle's throttle.
                    3. I push branch into bottle and before pressed branches go wider, so bottle won't fall of branch.
                    4. Finally the bottle hangs on trees branch and every morning I collect sap into bigger container.


                    I wonder if there are any health benefits to drinking this sap, or is it just a sugar high?
                    The sap has health benefits, but I don't know excactly what are these benefits. I have heard that it is good for immunity. In Karri Varpio's mail is link about birch sap produce, on that page there are writen some ingredients of this sap.

                    Thanks to Karri Varpio and EinuIf about interesting information.




                    -----------------------------------------
                    ITV - Sinu lemmiksaated internetis!
                    http://www.itv.ee
                  • les landeck
                    Good Morning, i ll start at the end and go back to the beginning. selective organic to me is to only use items from the list of whats allowed under the organic
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 2, 2005
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                      Good Morning,

                      i'll start at the end and go back to the beginning.
                      selective organic to me is to only use items from the
                      list of whats allowed under the organic standards that
                      do not compromise the beliefs of those who i provide
                      for. so no blood meal, bone meal, feather meal,fish
                      emulsion,,killing sprays of any form including soap
                      sprays. in the past i used two or three hundred pounds
                      of rock power but found my heart was not in it, as for
                      the destruction caused in mining. over the past twenty
                      years this has been a slow learning.

                      i do use chicken and horse manure mixed with rice
                      hauls or fur shavings. but i have been concern the
                      past six or eight years as to the things that may have
                      been done to these resources like with mushroom
                      compost,from 1986 into the early 90's i worked with
                      this layering it on top the soil blocking the grasses
                      and this stopped the need to turn the soil (tilling)
                      it was a great help and a waste produce that i didn't
                      want to see go to the dump. many times i questioned
                      the people at the source as to how they handled and
                      prepared this material, feeling that part of their
                      story was missing i want down to their operation. they
                      explained the steam process that seemed fine but when
                      i questioned any other sprays that they might have
                      been used their body language revealed something was
                      not being told, i asked the same question three times
                      each time the same reaction. i find it the same with
                      many sources of composting supplies. before cars a
                      market grower could take a load of produce to town and
                      return with a load of horse manure. not sure how they
                      cleaned the wagon? when we are concerned with the
                      quality of the produce we provide to the children, the
                      choices become very hard to sort out.

                      as Fukuoka's system of returning the rice and barley
                      straw to the field that is a form of layer composting.
                      using small amounts over a number of years plus the
                      clover in combination with the passive system of
                      flooding the field thus causing the clover and other
                      wild plants to giveway, he had a control system that
                      modeled nature,no soil disruption (passive).

                      i grow very few 120 day crops and no three acre fields
                      of rice, nor do i have the water to flood the fields,
                      they are sloped and full of golfer runs. just won't
                      work.

                      so the question was how can i extract Fukuoka's main
                      points no till, passive and apply it in another form
                      that would meet the needs of a market garden that
                      required three to four rotations per bed per year. if
                      the land did not cost so much we could make it on one
                      or two rotations that would allow crop rotations of
                      green manure plantings. But without the use of flood
                      irrigation how could i cause the green manure crop to
                      giveway into a clean seed bed as a tilled bed would
                      look? so along comes the straw, it takes a lot of
                      light straw to get old growth to giveway. mushroom and
                      later horse manure with fur and pine shavings came
                      later. this was put down on the first application in a
                      six inch layer, that on the next rotation a wheel
                      barrow of chicken manure per 400 square foot bed
                      (4X100) and maybe two inches of mushroom compost over
                      and ready to reseed. we need to note seed if we worked
                      with large transplanting machines all of this might be
                      different.

                      with this we had a system that worked, the cost of
                      importing was off set due to the lack of maintenance
                      no hand weeding or hoeing. good trade. the problem
                      came in finding stable, quality sources of compost
                      supplies in the volume necessary to sustain our needs.

                      i think this covers your two questions Jean-Claude.
                      it's just how can we grow food for the children
                      without offending the requirements of a vegan life
                      style. i do this in respect for others i'm a bit more
                      open in my eating habits but very narrow to many, are
                      not we all?

                      That last lap was quite a trip 589,000,000 miles, can
                      you believe 18.51 miles per second. in only one year
                      to get around the Sun. All of us riding together on
                      this little ball of water, rock, soil, and Life.
                      buckle up and enjoy the view. as we become aware of
                      our traveling companions it's good to note our Solar
                      systems speed of some 155 miles per second in our
                      travels around the Milky Way. seems to be helping me
                      bring things into perspective.

                      Happy New Year All Les







                      --- Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                      <instinct@...> wrote:

                      > <i being a hard firm believer in passive growing
                      > systems (selective organic choices)that cause me
                      > much
                      > stress when i look at what has been done to our
                      > overwhelming abundance of resources here. Your point
                      > of the mentality and understanding is well taken.
                      > Need
                      > to provide in some manor is also understood.
                      > Knowledge
                      > and improving choices over time is what brings
                      > change.>
                      >
                      > could you explain what you mean by passive growing
                      > system and selective organic choices ?
                      >
                      > jean-claude
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > removed]
                      >
                      >








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                    • lucia@lrw.net
                      ... ahhh. I understand now. great picture! ... looks like an interesting enterprise, but I couldn t find anything concrete on the website about the health
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jan 2, 2005
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                        > No I don't tap the tree. I just hang bottles up on the trees branches.
                        > It is hard to explain, I tried to draw some picture of it in Paint:
                        > http://www.hot.ee/andre66/sap.jpg

                        ahhh. I understand now. great picture!

                        > The sap has health benefits, but I don't know excactly what are these
                        > benefits. I have heard that it is good for immunity. In Karri Varpio's
                        > mail is link about birch sap produce, on that page there are writen
                        > some ingredients of this sap.

                        looks like an interesting enterprise, but I couldn't find anything
                        concrete on the website about the health benefits. they've written a book
                        but it looks like it's only in Finnish. I'll search for something in
                        English.

                        thanks again!

                        Lucia
                      • EinuIf
                        ... store [birch sap] ... I suspect that they sterilize the sap using ultraviolet light, ozone, or both -- the same way that chlorine-free tap-water treatment
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jan 2, 2005
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                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Karri Varpio"
                          <karri.varpio@r...> wrote:
                          >
                          > http://www.aurinkolehto.fi/eng/index.htm has developed a method to
                          store [birch sap]
                          > without heating, but they keep their method as a secret.

                          I suspect that they sterilize the sap using ultraviolet light, ozone,
                          or both -- the same way that chlorine-free tap-water treatment is done.
                        • lucia@lrw.net
                          ok. I ve done some research on the net and some books such as Steve Brill s Edible and Medicinal Plants and found out that Black Birch/Sweet Birch/Betula
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jan 2, 2005
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                            ok. I've done some research on the net and some books such as Steve
                            Brill's "Edible and Medicinal Plants" and found out that Black Birch/Sweet
                            Birch/Betula Lenta has alot of nutrients. the barch provides beta
                            carotene, calcium, vitamins B1 and B2, calcium, copper, iron, manganese,
                            phosphorus, potassium, sodium, and silicon, xylithol, betulinal and
                            glucoside. the inner bark can be eaten raw, ground into flour, or added to
                            soups. I haven't found out what nutrients the sap contains, but drinking
                            it raw is better than boiling it down into a highly concentrated sugar.

                            several people mention making a tea by infusing the twigs but warn against
                            boiling which would drive off the volatile wintergreen oils.

                            has anyone done this? do you just let it sit in cold water? or pour warm
                            water over it and let it sit? or gently heat to warm?

                            Lucia
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