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Re: [fukuoka_farming] animal raising

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  • Elinor Jean
    Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion. This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far less efficient
    Message 1 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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      Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.

      This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far
      less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from plants
      such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
      into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the plants.

      How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our impact
      on the land?

      cheers, Elin.

      At 11:50 PM 5/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
      >One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to
      >quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a
      >goat." This
      >may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
      >N
      >
      >Ralph wrote:
      >
      > > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them
      > something even
      > > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and
      > would
      > > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
      > >
      > > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
      > > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
      > >
      > >
      > > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
      > > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
      > > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
      > > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
      > > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
      >
      >
      >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • Elinor Jean
      Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire world population? Or do we need agriculture? E.
      Message 2 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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        Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire
        world population?

        Or do we need agriculture?

        E.

        At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
        >FIRST, DO NO FARM
        >A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
        >
        >Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
        >chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
        >to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
        >agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
        >"dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
        >not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
        >Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
        >laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
        >Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
        >Magazine website.
        >
        >today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
        >a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
        ><http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • Adam Carter
        Quick answer: Six billion (and counting) people could not live as hunter gatherers. However, I do not believe that six billion people could ever sustainably
        Message 3 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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          Quick answer: Six billion (and counting) people could not live as
          hunter gatherers.

          However, I do not believe that six billion people could ever
          sustainably live on this planet regardless of the means they use to
          feed themselves. To me this is a simple fact. The collapse of
          civilisation is inevitable, and drawing nearer.

          Despite the overwhelming evidence it took me a long time to accept this
          conclusion.

          On 01/06/2004, at 10:16 AM, Elinor Jean wrote:

          > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
          > entire
          > world population?
          >
          > Or do we need agriculture?
          >
          > E.
        • Adam Carter
          Elin, this issue is also tied in with the one on agriculture. You raise valid points about modern factory farming. However to raise plants for purely
          Message 4 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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            Elin, this issue is also tied in with the one on agriculture.

            You raise valid points about modern factory farming. However to raise
            plants for purely anthropocentric needs requires large scale land
            clearing and therefore loss of habitat for wild animals. In the modern
            agricultural world there is no right or wrong answer as to how one
            chooses to meet their nutritional needs.

            If you are looking for ethical answers, I suggest you look to how
            hunter gatherers lived within their ecosystems. Fukuoka style animal
            raising methods are a small step in that direction. It is closer to
            hunting wild animals and that (in a closed ecosystem) is the only long
            term sustainable way for humans to exist.

            Cheers, Adam.

            On 01/06/2004, at 10:13 AM, Elinor Jean wrote:

            > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
            >
            > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is
            > far
            > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from
            > plants
            > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
            > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the
            > plants.
            >
            > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
            > impact
            > on the land?
            >
            > cheers, Elin.
          • Royal A. Purdy
            ... becomes ... impacting ... Jean-claude and Folks, I ve spent many years reading and writing about Masanobu Fukuokas methods from the perspective that
            Message 5 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
              Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
              > masnobu fukuoka shows us the way to get from this agriculture to
              becomes
              >...
              > animals move a lot to be able to graze or feed naturally without
              impacting
              > the land , plants have the advantage of being grounded.
              > anyone interested by this challenge ?
              >
              > jean-claude
              >
              >
              > > FIRST, DO NO FARM
              > > A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
              > >

              Jean-claude and Folks,

              I've spent many years reading and writing about Masanobu
              Fukuokas' methods from the perspective that "Natural
              Farming" could and should be applied to general large scale
              commercial type animal (dairy and meat) livestock farming-cropping
              systems. I think readers here would be interested to learn that other
              animal husbandry writers in the past have also advocated the basic
              type tenets as Fukuokas four principals; namely F. Newman Turner
              during the forties and fifties.

              Turner was a follower of Sir Albert Howard, the well-known organic
              author-authority. Basically Turner saw no need to use synthetic
              Fertilizers (he advocated ambient pasture compost amendments); he saw
              no profit from monocultures, sprays or herbicides (complex pasture
              systems utilize "weeds", so there is very little need to act
              on
              controlling them); No (Deep) tillage or anything more than very
              shallow tillage is ever needed. There are other advocates of these
              methods too all based on a common pasture and pasture cropping
              advocacy that slipped from view with the green revolution; you just
              have to look for the information from a different interpretation; one
              that includes (not excludes) animals.

              As I have written on my website (www.ahtuttle.com); I believe and
              continue to promote that I am very sure that Fukuokas' thesis of
              (actual commercial) farming methods without addressing an advocacy of
              animal hoof actions and pastures influence is as blatantly incorrect
              and miss-informed from a economical, social, and environmental
              perspective as is that of any conventional agri-chemical and bio-
              technical type system agriculture with their presumed miss-uses'.

              I advocate that pasture and pasture cropping methods are sustainable
              and valid from anywhere between 10 and ten thousand animal
              equivalents or more.

              "The Elysian Fields Pasture Project" is updated seasonally as
              time
              allows.

              Be safe. Sincerely,

              Royal A. Purdy, author `The Elysian Fields Pasture Project"
              A. H. Tuttle and Company
              Farmington, NY. , U.S.A.
              Upstate New York, Finger Lakes Region
            • Roxann
              I do not think there is a quick fix nor an easy answer to the question. First of all, our world s population is so dense because of many reasons, but mass
              Message 6 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                I do not think there is a quick fix nor an easy answer to the question.
                First of all, our world's population is so dense because of many
                reasons, but mass agricultural practices probably contribute to it.
                There was a time when each family had to provide their own food through
                small farms, and they traded and sold off the excess. Personally, I
                like that concept and will soon be doing it myself. Even if each
                community had a garden, or several gardens, depending upon how large the
                community, it would go a long ways in providing food. The necessities
                for life do not include instant, prepackaged and highly processed foods
                and I think a good diet can be had from eating the seasonal produce that
                grows in a local garden with a couple chickens for eggs and a goat for
                milk could supply a community with a wealth of healthy and very
                cost-reduced food. Of course, that would require a radical change of
                paradigm for almost everyone in the US and maybe most other countries.
                But it seems a better answer than mega-agriculture or hunter-gathering.

                Roxann


                Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                entire
                world population?

                Or do we need agriculture?

                E.






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Roxann
                When I had only a single goat, she would not leave my immediate presence because she was afraid to go far from her leader . When she kidded, the two of them
                Message 7 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                  When I had only a single goat, she would not leave my immediate presence
                  because she was afraid to go far from her "leader". When she kidded,
                  the two of them would venture a little farther, but never to far away
                  and now that I have a horse they would follow the horse wherever he
                  goes, since he is now the leader. I think on 40 acres you could expect
                  your goats to stay fairly close as long as it's just the two of them.
                  Mine are also very wary of predators and won't go far for that reason.
                  Soon we'll be moving to 160 acres with plenty of forage available for
                  the animals and they will have more room to roam. If I planned to raise
                  them for meat, I'd like to do it the way that was suggested earlier,
                  with them pretty much being "supported" more than farmed. But my goats
                  need to be tame enough to milk and the chickens would be massacred by
                  predators overnight, and even the horse will need shelter and protection
                  from predators at night.

                  roxann


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Mary Jo Terry
                  We have a Nigerian dwarf billie goat. He is a pet so I have no trouble getting him to come when I m outside. We had two females and the neighbors across the
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                    We have a Nigerian dwarf billie goat. He is a pet so I have no trouble getting him to come when I'm outside. We had two females and the neighbors across the road raise meat goats so I couldn't keep them home and finally lost them. I could never keep them in a fence, even Happy (the pet)so I just let him run loose. He doesn't go far.
                    Jo_Al
                  • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                    a friend of mine in France have a herd of dairy goat ( alpine ) and he raise them free range in the montain ( he have a whole valley to himself ) after he milk
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                      a friend of mine in France have a herd of dairy goat ( alpine ) and he raise
                      them free range in the montain ( he have a whole valley to himself ) after
                      he milk them in the morning he let them go and when evening comes either
                      they come back themselves or he call them , they can be all the way up on
                      the crest but they come back .
                      at home i raised 3 goats free range also , their pen and shelter was allways
                      open as long they were small everything was fine but getting older they
                      adventured farther and farther away and peoples complained because they were
                      on the side of the road ( not that many car goes thru )so i had to keep them
                      on a line .
                      jean-claude

                      > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something
                      even
                      > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and
                      would
                      > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                      >
                      > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
                      > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                      >
                      >
                      > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                      > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                      > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
                      > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                      > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                      ... quick answer . the world population is in proportion of available foods , when hunting gathering was the way to get food , earth had a certain number of
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                        > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire
                        > world population?
                        >
                        > Or do we need agriculture?

                        quick answer .
                        the world population is in proportion of available foods , when hunting
                        gathering was the way to get food , earth had a certain number of peoples
                        that could be supported , agriculture is in fact the cause of
                        overpopulation .
                        the real question is: do we need to continuouslly produce more foods to the
                        point of exhausting the soils and compromising biodiversity , so we can give
                        birth to more peoples .? when is it going to stop ?

                        grain based diet will be fine except that the health status of humanity
                        declined drastically with the introduction of grains (stature and brain
                        sized diminished , degenerative diseases and tooth decay appeared , big
                        scale violence got established etc... and more there is peoples on earth
                        with a physiological sense of lack ( due to malnutrition ), more
                        destruction of ecosystems will occur ...

                        better get fed properlly ( in accordance with our genetic and evolution )
                        and becomes mindfull of human impact on earth as the hunter gatherer "had "
                        to.
                        having indecent availability of foods makes us mindless about our place in
                        the web of life .
                        jean-claude
                        >
                        > E.
                        >
                        > At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                        > >FIRST, DO NO FARM
                        > >A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                        > >
                        > >Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                        > >chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                        > >to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                        > >agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                        > >"dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                        > >not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                        > >Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                        > >laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                        > >Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                        > >Magazine website.
                        > >
                        > >today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                        > >a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                        > ><http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                        ... impact ... those calculation are based on the assumption that animals rasied for food compete with humans for the same ressources . this is true only in
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                          > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                          >
                          > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far
                          > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from plants
                          > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                          > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the plants.
                          >
                          > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                          impact
                          > on the land?

                          those calculation are based on the assumption that animals rasied for food
                          compete with humans for the same ressources . this is true only in the
                          context of factory farming where grains are fed to animals ( that is stupid
                          to spend so much energy to grow grain then feed them to animals )
                          the truth is that herbivorous animals are not grain eater to start with ,
                          they eat foliage and grasses sometimes with somes seeds with it but never
                          naked grains . herbivorous animals have no instinctive regulation of their
                          intake with naked grains they will eat to death ,proof that it is not their
                          original food .

                          even fowls are not grains eaters either , in the wild the ancestor of
                          chickens are bugs and small animals eaters fisrt then greens and seed the
                          last : ducks are also greens and bugs small animals eater , turkey and
                          others the same .
                          only pigeons are seeds eaters .
                          none of the animals we are used to eat , makes a healthy meat when raised on
                          grains ( it have to do especially with the ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 fatty
                          acids )

                          animals raised the natural way eat what humans don't eat while benefiting
                          whole ecosytems .
                          to give you an image i comes from the mountains of the pyrennees where not
                          that much can be grown as plants due to the elevation, but the whole
                          mountains is free range paradise for many domestic animals ( horses ,sheeps
                          ,goats cows) they cohabite with other wild big mammals like wild boar ,
                          mouflon ( wild sheep ) , and izards.( wild antelope )and they have done so
                          since prehistoric time . the whole ecosytem of the alpine meadows is rich
                          and diverse .

                          also tending plants demand way more human energy imput for what you get as
                          calory than free range animals raising .
                          jean-claude
                        • Socrate Hatoum
                          YES AGRICULTURE IS A DISASTER. YES WE CAN FEED THE ENTIRE WORLD. ANYWAY WE WAN T BE SO MANY ... Socrate Hatoum 33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
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                            YES AGRICULTURE IS A DISASTER. YES WE CAN FEED THE ENTIRE WORLD.
                            ANYWAY WE WAN'T BE SO MANY
                            On mardi, juin 1, 2004, at 02:16 Europe/Zurich, Elinor Jean wrote:

                            > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                            > entire
                            > world population?
                            >
                            > Or do we need agriculture?
                            >
                            > E.
                            >
                            > At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                            >> FIRST, DO NO FARM
                            >> A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                            >>
                            >> Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                            >> chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                            >> to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                            >> agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                            >> "dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                            >> not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                            >> Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                            >> laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                            >> Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                            >> Magazine website.
                            >>
                            >> today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                            >> a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                            >> <http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            Socrate Hatoum
                            33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
                          • Socrate Hatoum
                            A MIXTURE OF FAVA BEAN AND CHICKPEAS IS RICHER IN PROTEIN THAN ANY TOXIN FULL STEAK. THE EGYPTIANS :LIVE EATING IT THEY CALL IT FALAFEL AND IT DELICIOUS ...
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
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                              A MIXTURE OF FAVA BEAN AND CHICKPEAS IS RICHER IN PROTEIN THAN ANY
                              TOXIN FULL STEAK. THE EGYPTIANS :LIVE EATING IT THEY CALL IT FALAFEL
                              AND IT DELICIOUS
                              On mardi, juin 1, 2004, at 02:13 Europe/Zurich, Elinor Jean wrote:

                              > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                              >
                              > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is
                              > far
                              > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from
                              > plants
                              > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                              > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the
                              > plants.
                              >
                              > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                              > impact
                              > on the land?
                              >
                              > cheers, Elin.
                              >
                              > At 11:50 PM 5/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
                              >> One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an
                              >> occasion to
                              >> quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a
                              >> goat." This
                              >> may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
                              >> N
                              >>
                              >> Ralph wrote:
                              >>
                              >>> I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them
                              >> something even
                              >>> if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets
                              >>> and
                              >> would
                              >>> feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                              >>>
                              >>> Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give
                              >>> them the
                              >>> alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                              >>>
                              >>>
                              >>> On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                              >>>> I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                              >>>> but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We
                              >>>> have
                              >>>> forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                              >>>> garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats
                              >>>> roam
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              Socrate Hatoum
                              33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
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