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Re: [fukuoka_farming] A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster

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  • Adam Carter
    I have no doubt about agriculture being the biggest mistake. There are many books available that underline this point. For anyone interested in exploring this
    Message 1 of 19 , May 28, 2004
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      I have no doubt about agriculture being the biggest mistake. There are
      many books available that underline this point. For anyone interested
      in exploring this I'll list a few books:

      Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
      The Story of B by Daniel Quinn
      My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
      My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Cvilization by
      Chellis Glendinning
      Coming Home to the Pleistocene by Paul Shepherd
      Future Primitive by John Zerzan
      A Language Older Than Words by Derrick Jensen
      The Culture of Make Believe by Derrick Jensen
      Guns, Germs and Steel by Jarred Diamond
      Stone Age Economics by Marshall Sahlins

      There are many others, those are some of my favorites.

      I can also suggest reading the anthropology essays at
      http://www.primitivism.com/anthropology.htm
      A good starting point is the Marshall Sahlins essay on that web page.
    • Adam Carter
      I ve tried raising Muscovy ducks in as natural way as I could. We have multiple dams and the idea was not to feed them and have them simply graze for their
      Message 2 of 19 , May 29, 2004
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        I've tried raising Muscovy ducks in as natural way as I could. We have
        multiple dams and the idea was not to feed them and have them simply
        graze for their needs. The problem that I encountered was that we were
        raising free ranging chickens at the same time and we were feeding the
        chickens grain and kitchen scraps. It all worked fine for a few weeks
        until the ducks wised up to the easy food available around the house
        that we were giving the chickens. We ended up eating the ducks and now
        only have chickens. Ideally I'd like to experiment again with this,
        either without chickens or releasing the duck son the farthest dam
        hoping they would stay clear of the house.

        I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
        but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
        forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
        garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
        the rest of the land. I'm wondering if we bond well with the animals
        initially whether they'd be inclined to stay with us rather than
        heading off into the forest that adjoins our land. We have a fence with
        our only neighbours but the rest of the land is either poorly fenced or
        unfenced.

        Jean-claud, could you please let me know your thoughts about goats in
        this regard. I agree totally about private ownership being the problem
        but there is no way around this for me in the immediate future.




        On 28/05/2004, at 9:00 PM, Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry wrote:
        >
        > i am very interested myself to extend masanobu' s aproach to animal
        > raising
        > the natural way ,it will be a more difficult move as it will be
        > questionning the basis of neolithic cultures : private ownership of
        > land
        >
        > animals move a lot to be able to graze or feed naturally without
        > impacting
        > the land , plants have the advantage of being grounded.
        > anyone interested by this challenge ?
      • Ralph
        I ve raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something even if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and would feed
        Message 3 of 19 , May 30, 2004
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          I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something even
          if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and would
          feed three or four goats a handful a day.

          Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
          alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.


          On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
          > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
          > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
          > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
          > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
        • Robin, Maya, or Napi
          One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, If you have no troubles, get a goat. This
          Message 4 of 19 , May 30, 2004
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            One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to
            quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a goat." This
            may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
            N

            Ralph wrote:

            > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something even
            > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and would
            > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
            >
            > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
            > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
            >
            >
            > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
            > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
            > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
            > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
            > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Elinor Jean
            Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion. This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far less efficient
            Message 5 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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              Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.

              This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far
              less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from plants
              such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
              into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the plants.

              How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our impact
              on the land?

              cheers, Elin.

              At 11:50 PM 5/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
              >One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to
              >quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a
              >goat." This
              >may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
              >N
              >
              >Ralph wrote:
              >
              > > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them
              > something even
              > > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and
              > would
              > > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
              > >
              > > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
              > > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
              > >
              > >
              > > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
              > > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
              > > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
              > > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
              > > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
              >
              >
              >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Elinor Jean
              Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire world population? Or do we need agriculture? E.
              Message 6 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire
                world population?

                Or do we need agriculture?

                E.

                At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                >FIRST, DO NO FARM
                >A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                >
                >Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                >chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                >to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                >agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                >"dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                >not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                >Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                >laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                >Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                >Magazine website.
                >
                >today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                >a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                ><http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Adam Carter
                Quick answer: Six billion (and counting) people could not live as hunter gatherers. However, I do not believe that six billion people could ever sustainably
                Message 7 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                  Quick answer: Six billion (and counting) people could not live as
                  hunter gatherers.

                  However, I do not believe that six billion people could ever
                  sustainably live on this planet regardless of the means they use to
                  feed themselves. To me this is a simple fact. The collapse of
                  civilisation is inevitable, and drawing nearer.

                  Despite the overwhelming evidence it took me a long time to accept this
                  conclusion.

                  On 01/06/2004, at 10:16 AM, Elinor Jean wrote:

                  > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                  > entire
                  > world population?
                  >
                  > Or do we need agriculture?
                  >
                  > E.
                • Adam Carter
                  Elin, this issue is also tied in with the one on agriculture. You raise valid points about modern factory farming. However to raise plants for purely
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                    Elin, this issue is also tied in with the one on agriculture.

                    You raise valid points about modern factory farming. However to raise
                    plants for purely anthropocentric needs requires large scale land
                    clearing and therefore loss of habitat for wild animals. In the modern
                    agricultural world there is no right or wrong answer as to how one
                    chooses to meet their nutritional needs.

                    If you are looking for ethical answers, I suggest you look to how
                    hunter gatherers lived within their ecosystems. Fukuoka style animal
                    raising methods are a small step in that direction. It is closer to
                    hunting wild animals and that (in a closed ecosystem) is the only long
                    term sustainable way for humans to exist.

                    Cheers, Adam.

                    On 01/06/2004, at 10:13 AM, Elinor Jean wrote:

                    > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                    >
                    > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is
                    > far
                    > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from
                    > plants
                    > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                    > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the
                    > plants.
                    >
                    > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                    > impact
                    > on the land?
                    >
                    > cheers, Elin.
                  • Royal A. Purdy
                    ... becomes ... impacting ... Jean-claude and Folks, I ve spent many years reading and writing about Masanobu Fukuokas methods from the perspective that
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                      Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                      > masnobu fukuoka shows us the way to get from this agriculture to
                      becomes
                      >...
                      > animals move a lot to be able to graze or feed naturally without
                      impacting
                      > the land , plants have the advantage of being grounded.
                      > anyone interested by this challenge ?
                      >
                      > jean-claude
                      >
                      >
                      > > FIRST, DO NO FARM
                      > > A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                      > >

                      Jean-claude and Folks,

                      I've spent many years reading and writing about Masanobu
                      Fukuokas' methods from the perspective that "Natural
                      Farming" could and should be applied to general large scale
                      commercial type animal (dairy and meat) livestock farming-cropping
                      systems. I think readers here would be interested to learn that other
                      animal husbandry writers in the past have also advocated the basic
                      type tenets as Fukuokas four principals; namely F. Newman Turner
                      during the forties and fifties.

                      Turner was a follower of Sir Albert Howard, the well-known organic
                      author-authority. Basically Turner saw no need to use synthetic
                      Fertilizers (he advocated ambient pasture compost amendments); he saw
                      no profit from monocultures, sprays or herbicides (complex pasture
                      systems utilize "weeds", so there is very little need to act
                      on
                      controlling them); No (Deep) tillage or anything more than very
                      shallow tillage is ever needed. There are other advocates of these
                      methods too all based on a common pasture and pasture cropping
                      advocacy that slipped from view with the green revolution; you just
                      have to look for the information from a different interpretation; one
                      that includes (not excludes) animals.

                      As I have written on my website (www.ahtuttle.com); I believe and
                      continue to promote that I am very sure that Fukuokas' thesis of
                      (actual commercial) farming methods without addressing an advocacy of
                      animal hoof actions and pastures influence is as blatantly incorrect
                      and miss-informed from a economical, social, and environmental
                      perspective as is that of any conventional agri-chemical and bio-
                      technical type system agriculture with their presumed miss-uses'.

                      I advocate that pasture and pasture cropping methods are sustainable
                      and valid from anywhere between 10 and ten thousand animal
                      equivalents or more.

                      "The Elysian Fields Pasture Project" is updated seasonally as
                      time
                      allows.

                      Be safe. Sincerely,

                      Royal A. Purdy, author `The Elysian Fields Pasture Project"
                      A. H. Tuttle and Company
                      Farmington, NY. , U.S.A.
                      Upstate New York, Finger Lakes Region
                    • Roxann
                      I do not think there is a quick fix nor an easy answer to the question. First of all, our world s population is so dense because of many reasons, but mass
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                        I do not think there is a quick fix nor an easy answer to the question.
                        First of all, our world's population is so dense because of many
                        reasons, but mass agricultural practices probably contribute to it.
                        There was a time when each family had to provide their own food through
                        small farms, and they traded and sold off the excess. Personally, I
                        like that concept and will soon be doing it myself. Even if each
                        community had a garden, or several gardens, depending upon how large the
                        community, it would go a long ways in providing food. The necessities
                        for life do not include instant, prepackaged and highly processed foods
                        and I think a good diet can be had from eating the seasonal produce that
                        grows in a local garden with a couple chickens for eggs and a goat for
                        milk could supply a community with a wealth of healthy and very
                        cost-reduced food. Of course, that would require a radical change of
                        paradigm for almost everyone in the US and maybe most other countries.
                        But it seems a better answer than mega-agriculture or hunter-gathering.

                        Roxann


                        Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                        entire
                        world population?

                        Or do we need agriculture?

                        E.






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Roxann
                        When I had only a single goat, she would not leave my immediate presence because she was afraid to go far from her leader . When she kidded, the two of them
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                          When I had only a single goat, she would not leave my immediate presence
                          because she was afraid to go far from her "leader". When she kidded,
                          the two of them would venture a little farther, but never to far away
                          and now that I have a horse they would follow the horse wherever he
                          goes, since he is now the leader. I think on 40 acres you could expect
                          your goats to stay fairly close as long as it's just the two of them.
                          Mine are also very wary of predators and won't go far for that reason.
                          Soon we'll be moving to 160 acres with plenty of forage available for
                          the animals and they will have more room to roam. If I planned to raise
                          them for meat, I'd like to do it the way that was suggested earlier,
                          with them pretty much being "supported" more than farmed. But my goats
                          need to be tame enough to milk and the chickens would be massacred by
                          predators overnight, and even the horse will need shelter and protection
                          from predators at night.

                          roxann


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Mary Jo Terry
                          We have a Nigerian dwarf billie goat. He is a pet so I have no trouble getting him to come when I m outside. We had two females and the neighbors across the
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                            We have a Nigerian dwarf billie goat. He is a pet so I have no trouble getting him to come when I'm outside. We had two females and the neighbors across the road raise meat goats so I couldn't keep them home and finally lost them. I could never keep them in a fence, even Happy (the pet)so I just let him run loose. He doesn't go far.
                            Jo_Al
                          • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                            a friend of mine in France have a herd of dairy goat ( alpine ) and he raise them free range in the montain ( he have a whole valley to himself ) after he milk
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                              a friend of mine in France have a herd of dairy goat ( alpine ) and he raise
                              them free range in the montain ( he have a whole valley to himself ) after
                              he milk them in the morning he let them go and when evening comes either
                              they come back themselves or he call them , they can be all the way up on
                              the crest but they come back .
                              at home i raised 3 goats free range also , their pen and shelter was allways
                              open as long they were small everything was fine but getting older they
                              adventured farther and farther away and peoples complained because they were
                              on the side of the road ( not that many car goes thru )so i had to keep them
                              on a line .
                              jean-claude

                              > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something
                              even
                              > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and
                              would
                              > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                              >
                              > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
                              > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                              >
                              >
                              > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                              > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                              > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
                              > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                              > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                              ... quick answer . the world population is in proportion of available foods , when hunting gathering was the way to get food , earth had a certain number of
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                                > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire
                                > world population?
                                >
                                > Or do we need agriculture?

                                quick answer .
                                the world population is in proportion of available foods , when hunting
                                gathering was the way to get food , earth had a certain number of peoples
                                that could be supported , agriculture is in fact the cause of
                                overpopulation .
                                the real question is: do we need to continuouslly produce more foods to the
                                point of exhausting the soils and compromising biodiversity , so we can give
                                birth to more peoples .? when is it going to stop ?

                                grain based diet will be fine except that the health status of humanity
                                declined drastically with the introduction of grains (stature and brain
                                sized diminished , degenerative diseases and tooth decay appeared , big
                                scale violence got established etc... and more there is peoples on earth
                                with a physiological sense of lack ( due to malnutrition ), more
                                destruction of ecosystems will occur ...

                                better get fed properlly ( in accordance with our genetic and evolution )
                                and becomes mindfull of human impact on earth as the hunter gatherer "had "
                                to.
                                having indecent availability of foods makes us mindless about our place in
                                the web of life .
                                jean-claude
                                >
                                > E.
                                >
                                > At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                                > >FIRST, DO NO FARM
                                > >A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                                > >
                                > >Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                                > >chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                                > >to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                                > >agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                                > >"dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                                > >not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                                > >Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                                > >laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                                > >Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                                > >Magazine website.
                                > >
                                > >today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                                > >a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                                > ><http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                              • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                                ... impact ... those calculation are based on the assumption that animals rasied for food compete with humans for the same ressources . this is true only in
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                                  > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                                  >
                                  > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far
                                  > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from plants
                                  > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                                  > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the plants.
                                  >
                                  > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                                  impact
                                  > on the land?

                                  those calculation are based on the assumption that animals rasied for food
                                  compete with humans for the same ressources . this is true only in the
                                  context of factory farming where grains are fed to animals ( that is stupid
                                  to spend so much energy to grow grain then feed them to animals )
                                  the truth is that herbivorous animals are not grain eater to start with ,
                                  they eat foliage and grasses sometimes with somes seeds with it but never
                                  naked grains . herbivorous animals have no instinctive regulation of their
                                  intake with naked grains they will eat to death ,proof that it is not their
                                  original food .

                                  even fowls are not grains eaters either , in the wild the ancestor of
                                  chickens are bugs and small animals eaters fisrt then greens and seed the
                                  last : ducks are also greens and bugs small animals eater , turkey and
                                  others the same .
                                  only pigeons are seeds eaters .
                                  none of the animals we are used to eat , makes a healthy meat when raised on
                                  grains ( it have to do especially with the ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 fatty
                                  acids )

                                  animals raised the natural way eat what humans don't eat while benefiting
                                  whole ecosytems .
                                  to give you an image i comes from the mountains of the pyrennees where not
                                  that much can be grown as plants due to the elevation, but the whole
                                  mountains is free range paradise for many domestic animals ( horses ,sheeps
                                  ,goats cows) they cohabite with other wild big mammals like wild boar ,
                                  mouflon ( wild sheep ) , and izards.( wild antelope )and they have done so
                                  since prehistoric time . the whole ecosytem of the alpine meadows is rich
                                  and diverse .

                                  also tending plants demand way more human energy imput for what you get as
                                  calory than free range animals raising .
                                  jean-claude
                                • Socrate Hatoum
                                  YES AGRICULTURE IS A DISASTER. YES WE CAN FEED THE ENTIRE WORLD. ANYWAY WE WAN T BE SO MANY ... Socrate Hatoum 33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                    YES AGRICULTURE IS A DISASTER. YES WE CAN FEED THE ENTIRE WORLD.
                                    ANYWAY WE WAN'T BE SO MANY
                                    On mardi, juin 1, 2004, at 02:16 Europe/Zurich, Elinor Jean wrote:

                                    > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                                    > entire
                                    > world population?
                                    >
                                    > Or do we need agriculture?
                                    >
                                    > E.
                                    >
                                    > At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                                    >> FIRST, DO NO FARM
                                    >> A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                                    >>
                                    >> Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                                    >> chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                                    >> to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                                    >> agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                                    >> "dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                                    >> not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                                    >> Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                                    >> laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                                    >> Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                                    >> Magazine website.
                                    >>
                                    >> today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                                    >> a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                                    >> <http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Socrate Hatoum
                                    33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
                                  • Socrate Hatoum
                                    A MIXTURE OF FAVA BEAN AND CHICKPEAS IS RICHER IN PROTEIN THAN ANY TOXIN FULL STEAK. THE EGYPTIANS :LIVE EATING IT THEY CALL IT FALAFEL AND IT DELICIOUS ...
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                      A MIXTURE OF FAVA BEAN AND CHICKPEAS IS RICHER IN PROTEIN THAN ANY
                                      TOXIN FULL STEAK. THE EGYPTIANS :LIVE EATING IT THEY CALL IT FALAFEL
                                      AND IT DELICIOUS
                                      On mardi, juin 1, 2004, at 02:13 Europe/Zurich, Elinor Jean wrote:

                                      > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                                      >
                                      > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is
                                      > far
                                      > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from
                                      > plants
                                      > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                                      > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the
                                      > plants.
                                      >
                                      > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                                      > impact
                                      > on the land?
                                      >
                                      > cheers, Elin.
                                      >
                                      > At 11:50 PM 5/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
                                      >> One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an
                                      >> occasion to
                                      >> quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a
                                      >> goat." This
                                      >> may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
                                      >> N
                                      >>
                                      >> Ralph wrote:
                                      >>
                                      >>> I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them
                                      >> something even
                                      >>> if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets
                                      >>> and
                                      >> would
                                      >>> feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                                      >>>
                                      >>> Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give
                                      >>> them the
                                      >>> alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                                      >>>
                                      >>>
                                      >>> On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                                      >>>> I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                                      >>>> but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We
                                      >>>> have
                                      >>>> forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                                      >>>> garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats
                                      >>>> roam
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >>
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      Socrate Hatoum
                                      33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
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