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A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster

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  • Robin, Maya, or Napi
    FIRST, DO NO FARM A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale, chemical-dependent agriculture, but
    Message 1 of 19 , May 27, 2004
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      FIRST, DO NO FARM
      A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster

      Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
      chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
      to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
      agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
      "dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
      not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
      Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
      laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
      Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
      Magazine website.

      today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
      a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
      <http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
    • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
      masnobu fukuoka shows us the way to get from this agriculture to becomes creator of ecosytems -that can sustain a gathering life style too bad IMO it comes
      Message 2 of 19 , May 28, 2004
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        masnobu fukuoka shows us the way to get from this agriculture to becomes
        creator of ecosytems -that can sustain a gathering life style

        too bad IMO it comes from a mostly vegetarian perpective . hunter gatherers
        cultures have been demonstration of the healthiest way of living ( in
        comparaison of grain based cultures ) but they never had acces to grains and
        choose between 40 percent to 60 percent( for the average) , -of their calory
        coming from animals , with some exception like the environmentally
        defavorised kung in the kalhari desert at 35 percent , to the inuits with
        over 95 percent .

        i am very interested myself to extend masanobu' s aproach to animal raising
        the natural way ,it will be a more difficult move as it will be
        questionning the basis of neolithic cultures : private ownership of land

        animals move a lot to be able to graze or feed naturally without impacting
        the land , plants have the advantage of being grounded.
        anyone interested by this challenge ?

        jean-claude


        > FIRST, DO NO FARM
        > A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
        >
        >
      • Adam Carter
        I have no doubt about agriculture being the biggest mistake. There are many books available that underline this point. For anyone interested in exploring this
        Message 3 of 19 , May 28, 2004
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          I have no doubt about agriculture being the biggest mistake. There are
          many books available that underline this point. For anyone interested
          in exploring this I'll list a few books:

          Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
          The Story of B by Daniel Quinn
          My Ishmael by Daniel Quinn
          My Name is Chellis and I'm in Recovery from Western Cvilization by
          Chellis Glendinning
          Coming Home to the Pleistocene by Paul Shepherd
          Future Primitive by John Zerzan
          A Language Older Than Words by Derrick Jensen
          The Culture of Make Believe by Derrick Jensen
          Guns, Germs and Steel by Jarred Diamond
          Stone Age Economics by Marshall Sahlins

          There are many others, those are some of my favorites.

          I can also suggest reading the anthropology essays at
          http://www.primitivism.com/anthropology.htm
          A good starting point is the Marshall Sahlins essay on that web page.
        • Adam Carter
          I ve tried raising Muscovy ducks in as natural way as I could. We have multiple dams and the idea was not to feed them and have them simply graze for their
          Message 4 of 19 , May 29, 2004
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            I've tried raising Muscovy ducks in as natural way as I could. We have
            multiple dams and the idea was not to feed them and have them simply
            graze for their needs. The problem that I encountered was that we were
            raising free ranging chickens at the same time and we were feeding the
            chickens grain and kitchen scraps. It all worked fine for a few weeks
            until the ducks wised up to the easy food available around the house
            that we were giving the chickens. We ended up eating the ducks and now
            only have chickens. Ideally I'd like to experiment again with this,
            either without chickens or releasing the duck son the farthest dam
            hoping they would stay clear of the house.

            I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
            but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
            forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
            garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
            the rest of the land. I'm wondering if we bond well with the animals
            initially whether they'd be inclined to stay with us rather than
            heading off into the forest that adjoins our land. We have a fence with
            our only neighbours but the rest of the land is either poorly fenced or
            unfenced.

            Jean-claud, could you please let me know your thoughts about goats in
            this regard. I agree totally about private ownership being the problem
            but there is no way around this for me in the immediate future.




            On 28/05/2004, at 9:00 PM, Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry wrote:
            >
            > i am very interested myself to extend masanobu' s aproach to animal
            > raising
            > the natural way ,it will be a more difficult move as it will be
            > questionning the basis of neolithic cultures : private ownership of
            > land
            >
            > animals move a lot to be able to graze or feed naturally without
            > impacting
            > the land , plants have the advantage of being grounded.
            > anyone interested by this challenge ?
          • Ralph
            I ve raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something even if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and would feed
            Message 5 of 19 , May 30, 2004
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              I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something even
              if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and would
              feed three or four goats a handful a day.

              Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
              alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.


              On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
              > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
              > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
              > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
              > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
            • Robin, Maya, or Napi
              One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, If you have no troubles, get a goat. This
              Message 6 of 19 , May 30, 2004
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                One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to
                quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a goat." This
                may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
                N

                Ralph wrote:

                > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something even
                > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and would
                > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                >
                > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
                > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                >
                >
                > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
                > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Elinor Jean
                Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion. This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far less efficient
                Message 7 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                  Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.

                  This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far
                  less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from plants
                  such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                  into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the plants.

                  How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our impact
                  on the land?

                  cheers, Elin.

                  At 11:50 PM 5/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
                  >One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an occasion to
                  >quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a
                  >goat." This
                  >may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
                  >N
                  >
                  >Ralph wrote:
                  >
                  > > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them
                  > something even
                  > > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and
                  > would
                  > > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                  > >
                  > > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
                  > > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                  > > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                  > > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
                  > > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                  > > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
                  >
                  >
                  >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Elinor Jean
                  Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire world population? Or do we need agriculture? E.
                  Message 8 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                    Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire
                    world population?

                    Or do we need agriculture?

                    E.

                    At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                    >FIRST, DO NO FARM
                    >A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                    >
                    >Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                    >chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                    >to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                    >agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                    >"dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                    >not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                    >Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                    >laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                    >Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                    >Magazine website.
                    >
                    >today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                    >a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                    ><http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Adam Carter
                    Quick answer: Six billion (and counting) people could not live as hunter gatherers. However, I do not believe that six billion people could ever sustainably
                    Message 9 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                      Quick answer: Six billion (and counting) people could not live as
                      hunter gatherers.

                      However, I do not believe that six billion people could ever
                      sustainably live on this planet regardless of the means they use to
                      feed themselves. To me this is a simple fact. The collapse of
                      civilisation is inevitable, and drawing nearer.

                      Despite the overwhelming evidence it took me a long time to accept this
                      conclusion.

                      On 01/06/2004, at 10:16 AM, Elinor Jean wrote:

                      > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                      > entire
                      > world population?
                      >
                      > Or do we need agriculture?
                      >
                      > E.
                    • Adam Carter
                      Elin, this issue is also tied in with the one on agriculture. You raise valid points about modern factory farming. However to raise plants for purely
                      Message 10 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                        Elin, this issue is also tied in with the one on agriculture.

                        You raise valid points about modern factory farming. However to raise
                        plants for purely anthropocentric needs requires large scale land
                        clearing and therefore loss of habitat for wild animals. In the modern
                        agricultural world there is no right or wrong answer as to how one
                        chooses to meet their nutritional needs.

                        If you are looking for ethical answers, I suggest you look to how
                        hunter gatherers lived within their ecosystems. Fukuoka style animal
                        raising methods are a small step in that direction. It is closer to
                        hunting wild animals and that (in a closed ecosystem) is the only long
                        term sustainable way for humans to exist.

                        Cheers, Adam.

                        On 01/06/2004, at 10:13 AM, Elinor Jean wrote:

                        > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                        >
                        > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is
                        > far
                        > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from
                        > plants
                        > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                        > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the
                        > plants.
                        >
                        > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                        > impact
                        > on the land?
                        >
                        > cheers, Elin.
                      • Royal A. Purdy
                        ... becomes ... impacting ... Jean-claude and Folks, I ve spent many years reading and writing about Masanobu Fukuokas methods from the perspective that
                        Message 11 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                          Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                          > masnobu fukuoka shows us the way to get from this agriculture to
                          becomes
                          >...
                          > animals move a lot to be able to graze or feed naturally without
                          impacting
                          > the land , plants have the advantage of being grounded.
                          > anyone interested by this challenge ?
                          >
                          > jean-claude
                          >
                          >
                          > > FIRST, DO NO FARM
                          > > A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                          > >

                          Jean-claude and Folks,

                          I've spent many years reading and writing about Masanobu
                          Fukuokas' methods from the perspective that "Natural
                          Farming" could and should be applied to general large scale
                          commercial type animal (dairy and meat) livestock farming-cropping
                          systems. I think readers here would be interested to learn that other
                          animal husbandry writers in the past have also advocated the basic
                          type tenets as Fukuokas four principals; namely F. Newman Turner
                          during the forties and fifties.

                          Turner was a follower of Sir Albert Howard, the well-known organic
                          author-authority. Basically Turner saw no need to use synthetic
                          Fertilizers (he advocated ambient pasture compost amendments); he saw
                          no profit from monocultures, sprays or herbicides (complex pasture
                          systems utilize "weeds", so there is very little need to act
                          on
                          controlling them); No (Deep) tillage or anything more than very
                          shallow tillage is ever needed. There are other advocates of these
                          methods too all based on a common pasture and pasture cropping
                          advocacy that slipped from view with the green revolution; you just
                          have to look for the information from a different interpretation; one
                          that includes (not excludes) animals.

                          As I have written on my website (www.ahtuttle.com); I believe and
                          continue to promote that I am very sure that Fukuokas' thesis of
                          (actual commercial) farming methods without addressing an advocacy of
                          animal hoof actions and pastures influence is as blatantly incorrect
                          and miss-informed from a economical, social, and environmental
                          perspective as is that of any conventional agri-chemical and bio-
                          technical type system agriculture with their presumed miss-uses'.

                          I advocate that pasture and pasture cropping methods are sustainable
                          and valid from anywhere between 10 and ten thousand animal
                          equivalents or more.

                          "The Elysian Fields Pasture Project" is updated seasonally as
                          time
                          allows.

                          Be safe. Sincerely,

                          Royal A. Purdy, author `The Elysian Fields Pasture Project"
                          A. H. Tuttle and Company
                          Farmington, NY. , U.S.A.
                          Upstate New York, Finger Lakes Region
                        • Roxann
                          I do not think there is a quick fix nor an easy answer to the question. First of all, our world s population is so dense because of many reasons, but mass
                          Message 12 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                            I do not think there is a quick fix nor an easy answer to the question.
                            First of all, our world's population is so dense because of many
                            reasons, but mass agricultural practices probably contribute to it.
                            There was a time when each family had to provide their own food through
                            small farms, and they traded and sold off the excess. Personally, I
                            like that concept and will soon be doing it myself. Even if each
                            community had a garden, or several gardens, depending upon how large the
                            community, it would go a long ways in providing food. The necessities
                            for life do not include instant, prepackaged and highly processed foods
                            and I think a good diet can be had from eating the seasonal produce that
                            grows in a local garden with a couple chickens for eggs and a goat for
                            milk could supply a community with a wealth of healthy and very
                            cost-reduced food. Of course, that would require a radical change of
                            paradigm for almost everyone in the US and maybe most other countries.
                            But it seems a better answer than mega-agriculture or hunter-gathering.

                            Roxann


                            Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                            entire
                            world population?

                            Or do we need agriculture?

                            E.






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Roxann
                            When I had only a single goat, she would not leave my immediate presence because she was afraid to go far from her leader . When she kidded, the two of them
                            Message 13 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                              When I had only a single goat, she would not leave my immediate presence
                              because she was afraid to go far from her "leader". When she kidded,
                              the two of them would venture a little farther, but never to far away
                              and now that I have a horse they would follow the horse wherever he
                              goes, since he is now the leader. I think on 40 acres you could expect
                              your goats to stay fairly close as long as it's just the two of them.
                              Mine are also very wary of predators and won't go far for that reason.
                              Soon we'll be moving to 160 acres with plenty of forage available for
                              the animals and they will have more room to roam. If I planned to raise
                              them for meat, I'd like to do it the way that was suggested earlier,
                              with them pretty much being "supported" more than farmed. But my goats
                              need to be tame enough to milk and the chickens would be massacred by
                              predators overnight, and even the horse will need shelter and protection
                              from predators at night.

                              roxann


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Mary Jo Terry
                              We have a Nigerian dwarf billie goat. He is a pet so I have no trouble getting him to come when I m outside. We had two females and the neighbors across the
                              Message 14 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                                We have a Nigerian dwarf billie goat. He is a pet so I have no trouble getting him to come when I'm outside. We had two females and the neighbors across the road raise meat goats so I couldn't keep them home and finally lost them. I could never keep them in a fence, even Happy (the pet)so I just let him run loose. He doesn't go far.
                                Jo_Al
                              • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                                a friend of mine in France have a herd of dairy goat ( alpine ) and he raise them free range in the montain ( he have a whole valley to himself ) after he milk
                                Message 15 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                                  a friend of mine in France have a herd of dairy goat ( alpine ) and he raise
                                  them free range in the montain ( he have a whole valley to himself ) after
                                  he milk them in the morning he let them go and when evening comes either
                                  they come back themselves or he call them , they can be all the way up on
                                  the crest but they come back .
                                  at home i raised 3 goats free range also , their pen and shelter was allways
                                  open as long they were small everything was fine but getting older they
                                  adventured farther and farther away and peoples complained because they were
                                  on the side of the road ( not that many car goes thru )so i had to keep them
                                  on a line .
                                  jean-claude

                                  > I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them something
                                  even
                                  > if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets and
                                  would
                                  > feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                                  >
                                  > Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give them the
                                  > alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                                  > > I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                                  > > but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We have
                                  > > forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                                  > > garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats roam
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                                  ... quick answer . the world population is in proportion of available foods , when hunting gathering was the way to get food , earth had a certain number of
                                  Message 16 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                                    > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the entire
                                    > world population?
                                    >
                                    > Or do we need agriculture?

                                    quick answer .
                                    the world population is in proportion of available foods , when hunting
                                    gathering was the way to get food , earth had a certain number of peoples
                                    that could be supported , agriculture is in fact the cause of
                                    overpopulation .
                                    the real question is: do we need to continuouslly produce more foods to the
                                    point of exhausting the soils and compromising biodiversity , so we can give
                                    birth to more peoples .? when is it going to stop ?

                                    grain based diet will be fine except that the health status of humanity
                                    declined drastically with the introduction of grains (stature and brain
                                    sized diminished , degenerative diseases and tooth decay appeared , big
                                    scale violence got established etc... and more there is peoples on earth
                                    with a physiological sense of lack ( due to malnutrition ), more
                                    destruction of ecosystems will occur ...

                                    better get fed properlly ( in accordance with our genetic and evolution )
                                    and becomes mindfull of human impact on earth as the hunter gatherer "had "
                                    to.
                                    having indecent availability of foods makes us mindless about our place in
                                    the web of life .
                                    jean-claude
                                    >
                                    > E.
                                    >
                                    > At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                                    > >FIRST, DO NO FARM
                                    > >A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                                    > >
                                    > >Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                                    > >chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                                    > >to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                                    > >agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                                    > >"dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                                    > >not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                                    > >Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                                    > >laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                                    > >Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                                    > >Magazine website.
                                    > >
                                    > >today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                                    > >a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                                    > ><http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                                    ... impact ... those calculation are based on the assumption that animals rasied for food compete with humans for the same ressources . this is true only in
                                    Message 17 of 19 , May 31, 2004
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                                      > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                                      >
                                      > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is far
                                      > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from plants
                                      > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                                      > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the plants.
                                      >
                                      > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                                      impact
                                      > on the land?

                                      those calculation are based on the assumption that animals rasied for food
                                      compete with humans for the same ressources . this is true only in the
                                      context of factory farming where grains are fed to animals ( that is stupid
                                      to spend so much energy to grow grain then feed them to animals )
                                      the truth is that herbivorous animals are not grain eater to start with ,
                                      they eat foliage and grasses sometimes with somes seeds with it but never
                                      naked grains . herbivorous animals have no instinctive regulation of their
                                      intake with naked grains they will eat to death ,proof that it is not their
                                      original food .

                                      even fowls are not grains eaters either , in the wild the ancestor of
                                      chickens are bugs and small animals eaters fisrt then greens and seed the
                                      last : ducks are also greens and bugs small animals eater , turkey and
                                      others the same .
                                      only pigeons are seeds eaters .
                                      none of the animals we are used to eat , makes a healthy meat when raised on
                                      grains ( it have to do especially with the ratio of omega 3 to omega 6 fatty
                                      acids )

                                      animals raised the natural way eat what humans don't eat while benefiting
                                      whole ecosytems .
                                      to give you an image i comes from the mountains of the pyrennees where not
                                      that much can be grown as plants due to the elevation, but the whole
                                      mountains is free range paradise for many domestic animals ( horses ,sheeps
                                      ,goats cows) they cohabite with other wild big mammals like wild boar ,
                                      mouflon ( wild sheep ) , and izards.( wild antelope )and they have done so
                                      since prehistoric time . the whole ecosytem of the alpine meadows is rich
                                      and diverse .

                                      also tending plants demand way more human energy imput for what you get as
                                      calory than free range animals raising .
                                      jean-claude
                                    • Socrate Hatoum
                                      YES AGRICULTURE IS A DISASTER. YES WE CAN FEED THE ENTIRE WORLD. ANYWAY WE WAN T BE SO MANY ... Socrate Hatoum 33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                        YES AGRICULTURE IS A DISASTER. YES WE CAN FEED THE ENTIRE WORLD.
                                        ANYWAY WE WAN'T BE SO MANY
                                        On mardi, juin 1, 2004, at 02:16 Europe/Zurich, Elinor Jean wrote:

                                        > Quick question: If we go back to hunter gathering, can we feed the
                                        > entire
                                        > world population?
                                        >
                                        > Or do we need agriculture?
                                        >
                                        > E.
                                        >
                                        > At 12:26 AM 5/28/04 -0400, you wrote:
                                        >> FIRST, DO NO FARM
                                        >> A New Book Argues That Agriculture Is a Disaster
                                        >>
                                        >> Enviros are familiar with critiques of large-scale,
                                        >> chemical-dependent agriculture, but Richard Manning has bigger fish
                                        >> to fry: In his new book "Against the Grain," Manning argues that
                                        >> agriculture itself -- the whole shebang -- is a disaster, a
                                        >> "dangerous and consuming beast of a social system." Hunter-gatherers
                                        >> not only had more fun, he says, but they were demonstrably healthier.
                                        >> Agriculture led to a small, rich upper class and a large, unhealthy
                                        >> laborer class, not to mention endless cycles of famine. Michelle
                                        >> Nijhuis reviews Manning's provocative new book -- today on the Grist
                                        >> Magazine website.
                                        >>
                                        >> today in Grist: Richard Manning's "Against the Grain" gives farming
                                        >> a big thumbs-down -- by Michelle Nijhuis
                                        >> <http://www.gristmagazine.com/books/books052704.asp?source=daily>
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                                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                        Socrate Hatoum
                                        33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
                                      • Socrate Hatoum
                                        A MIXTURE OF FAVA BEAN AND CHICKPEAS IS RICHER IN PROTEIN THAN ANY TOXIN FULL STEAK. THE EGYPTIANS :LIVE EATING IT THEY CALL IT FALAFEL AND IT DELICIOUS ...
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Jun 1, 2004
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                                          A MIXTURE OF FAVA BEAN AND CHICKPEAS IS RICHER IN PROTEIN THAN ANY
                                          TOXIN FULL STEAK. THE EGYPTIANS :LIVE EATING IT THEY CALL IT FALAFEL
                                          AND IT DELICIOUS
                                          On mardi, juin 1, 2004, at 02:13 Europe/Zurich, Elinor Jean wrote:

                                          > Very interested to read the ideas about animal raising fukuoka fashion.
                                          >
                                          > This leads into something that interests me. I have heard that it is
                                          > far
                                          > less efficient to get one's protein from animals as opposed to from
                                          > plants
                                          > such as soy beans, i.e. that for the amount (nutrients, energy) you put
                                          > into raising animals versus plants, you get a lot more out of the
                                          > plants.
                                          >
                                          > How do we deal with this ethically, if we are trying to minimise our
                                          > impact
                                          > on the land?
                                          >
                                          > cheers, Elin.
                                          >
                                          > At 11:50 PM 5/30/04 -0400, you wrote:
                                          >> One of our school families raised & loved them, yet had many an
                                          >> occasion to
                                          >> quote the (Middle Eastern?) saying, "If you have no troubles, get a
                                          >> goat." This
                                          >> may have had to do with many temptations on the neighbor's property.
                                          >> N
                                          >>
                                          >> Ralph wrote:
                                          >>
                                          >>> I've raised goats. o keep them close to you, always feed them
                                          >> something even
                                          >>> if they forage for most of their diet. I kept a few alfafa pellets
                                          >>> and
                                          >> would
                                          >>> feed three or four goats a handful a day.
                                          >>>
                                          >>> Also, if youring a bell or beat on a tin pan just before you give
                                          >>> them the
                                          >>> alfalfa, they will always come to you when you ring if they escape.
                                          >>>
                                          >>>
                                          >>> On Saturday 29 May 2004 10:18 pm, Adam Carter wrote:
                                          >>>> I am contemplating an experiment along these lines with a few goats,
                                          >>>> but have reservations about whether they will stay on my land. We
                                          >>>> have
                                          >>>> forty acres (half cleared half pasture) and our fukuokan vegetable
                                          >>>> garden is fenced from wildlife and I'd be happy to have the goats
                                          >>>> roam
                                          >>
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                                          >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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                                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
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                                          Socrate Hatoum
                                          33 (0)1 40 70 19 91
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