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Re: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Environmental sustainability possible within a generation???

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  • Adam Carter
    Hi Jason, I appreciate your detailed response. Just a couple of things I d like to elaborate on. If one perceives that the foundations of civilisation are
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
      Hi Jason,

      I appreciate your detailed response.

      Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives that
      the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount of 'reform'
      is going to make a difference in the long run. There are increasing
      numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These people have not
      given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not confined to a
      civilised outlook.

      Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed in
      many different directions. Towards creating alternative means of
      subsistence and learning primitive skills. Towards defending remaining
      wild places. Towards undermining civilisation itself. Towards
      supporting surviving indigenous life ways.

      I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen (especially 'A
      Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
      Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in recovery
      from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel Quinn
      ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques of
      civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out for
      'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies' by
      Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive analysis of the
      coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of the 'sustainable'
      alternatives.

      You wondered at how someone using electricity can write meaningfully
      about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have to wonder what
      it was like 10,000 years ago. Less than 250 years ago the entire
      continent that you and I live on was living quite happily and
      sustainably with stone tools.

      Cheers,

      Adam.

      PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs book,
      I've ordered it today.
    • animaphile
      ... Thanks. You ve come from Melbourne recently. I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life, participating in nature there, learn t all species of
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
        wrote:
        > Hi Jason,

        > I appreciate your detailed response.

        Thanks.
        You've come from Melbourne recently.
        I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life,
        participating in nature there, learn't all species of plants, both
        indig and introduced, 1500+, 600+ indig sp., most animals... great
        place for me, but i'm not a sympathiser of some people i know there
        who talk about overthrowing the city culture, i'm not a greeny-nazi,
        i couldn't and wouldn't want to destroy the people who live there or
        force them in any way, this would be so counter to compassion and to
        bringing up & out the good nature that is the underlying base of
        human nature. Even though the destruction of non-human nature there
        that i love all my life is/was so severe and pernicious. My
        experiences there were heartbreaking, many times many bushlands were
        needlessly and/or wantonly harmed in a sado-masochistic or merchant
        of death dealing way. Still good bush aswell and regeneration going
        too.

        > Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives
        that the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount
        of 'reform' is going to make a difference in the long run. There are
        increasing numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These
        people have not given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not
        confined to a civilised outlook.

        I agree with the intention or sentiment but the wording
        of 'foundations of civilisation are rotten' is rotten if anything
        is, if throwing out this word then really you need to change
        languages and throw out the english language also. Do you speak a
        different language from English? Japanese and Indig' languages of
        this continent are liberating examples, would you learn a Palawa
        language perhaps?
        What have you learn't about Indigenous people's of this continent so
        far, as from your posts you imply that you are an originally non-
        indig' person, hope i'm not wrong in this reading of your posts.
        Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre/Corporation is very worthwhile.

        > Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed
        in many different directions.

        Yeah!

        > Towards creating alternative means of subsistence and learning
        primitive skills.

        There's nothing primitive about primitives - know wha' a mean?
        I don't believe in alternatives or mainstreams, primitive or modern
        they both define themselves by what they are opposed to or what they
        are supposed not to be. Bring on at once becoming Eternal and MU!

        >Towards defending remaining wild places.
        Yeah!
        Regenerating is better again and doesn't sow the seed of its own
        conflict as defensiveness does.
        >Towards undermining civilisation itself.

        No need to undermine civilisation, just build a real one rather than
        pretend, false one, eg. Indigenous civilisations, peoples, societies
        of this continent. Jamie & Gloria's one's for Europe. etc.

        > Towards supporting surviving indigenous life ways.

        Yeah!
        Sorry to be feeling like an editor of your wording, i don't really
        presume to be an editor, rather it is continuing my detailed
        response, because i am absolutely convinced that there is no benefit
        in taking sides for anyone, you, me, or George W. Bush, Saddam, the
        spooks in the intelligence agencies or even Satan.

        > I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen
        (especially 'A Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
        Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in
        recovery from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel
        Quinn ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques
        of civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out
        for 'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial
        Societies' by Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive
        analysis of the coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of
        the 'sustainable' alternatives.

        Thanks it's the thought of yours that counts, i actually just had a
        thorough read of all the write-ups of books on his website, and
        after my own personal upbringing experiences i can say that i'm
        beyond the life-phase of dealing with my parental families problems.
        I've received alot of heart from indig' people's and different
        people's including takusan Nihonjin (many japanese people) and
        shared alot too, that has taken me beyond civilisation vs.
        primitive, western vs. eastern, white vs. black, asian vs. european,
        christian vs. 'other' than christian, eastern or japanese or
        aboriginal christian vs. western christian, secular vs. non-secular,
        materialistic vs. spiritual, man vs. woman, history vs. herstory,
        linear thinking vs. lateral thinking vs. multidimensional thinking,
        left brain vs. right brain, deep vs. shallow ecology (i've read
        literally a 1000 or more ecology science papers, not incl. books
        versus hundreds of (so called) deep ecology literatures, not to
        mention dialogues with people, etc.), greeny vs. browny vs. redneck,
        the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
        dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
        i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
        root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
        consider jean-claude), technocracy vs. luddism (technology was and
        is never the issue, people are the issue and their societies and
        choices made by people & societies about technology ie. attachment
        to for or against technology), paleao (lithic) vs. neo (lithic)
        (words mean literally old vs. new rocks - old stones vs. new
        stones), good vs. bad, attached-to-science vs. against-science vs.
        sucker-for-psuedo-science (all still dictated in mode of thinking by
        science, whether for or against or hoodwinked by), etc.
        There is an important section in Fukuoka's "Ultimatum of God
        Nature..." ("KAMI TO SHIZEN TO HITO NO KAKUMEI...") where he
        describes and discusses "Men who kill God", it is especially
        important for us men who have come from societies that have been
        dominated by nature destructive ideologies. The use of the word
        civilisation can be a very good meaning, furthermore it can be
        reclaimed by secure type people away from any destructive meanings
        to mean humane, civil, a citizen of God Nature, etc. There no reason
        to be a word-fashion-victim for Jensen or anyone, we make the
        language, not at the mercy of it, as we make the future every
        present moment! Does any of the writing above directly address
        Hawkins & Lovins "Natural Capitalism" i like to extract the
        happening empirical info out of that publ., it is spontaneous, up to
        date-ish more than most and edifying. I don't like it when anyone
        diminishes faith in human nature or any nature, there's nothing
        wrong with nature, there is some things wrong with some stuff in
        some poeple's heads not the least of which is us brought up in
        materialist, secular-christian, stratified, babylon-system...
        societies. But it is all only `in people's heads`. To paraphrase Tim
        Peters, if your yardstick or guidebook of life be wrong or you ask
        the wrong question then you have f..k all hope of getting the right
        answer or any answer. Bring on MU!

        > You wondered at how someone using electricity can write
        meaningfully about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have
        to wonder what it was like 10,000 years ago.

        I'd like you to explore that inconsitency some more that i
        mentioned, about myself and us, and whoever.

        >Less than 250 years ago the entire continent that you and I live on
        was living quite happily and sustainably with stone tools.

        Yes!
        But it wasn't BECAUSE of stone tools that they were/are happy or
        sustainable 250 years ago or today, that is the very materialistic
        (european if we like that word for a convention of assumed meaning)
        obsession with materials and technological determinisms, and also
        archaeologies largely dependence upon material artefacts, and
        whitefellah's societies, up till recently at least, reliance on
        archaeology as their abriter of truth about indigenous peoples of
        this continent. When really archaeology can only be misleading
        compared to simply directly asking to teach their civilisation
        & 'culture' & customs & spirituality. To emphasise indig' peoples of
        this continents' pre-eminence in religion/spirituality, society,
        kinship and social systems more than just & in addition to their
        tool technologies is more in keeping with what apparently makes my
        indig' friends today happy about themselves, and more about the
        strengths of their societies and cultures in being sustainable.

        Have you read David Horton's book "The Pure State of Nature" it is
        better than nothing, but like everything partial. He's an
        archaeologist, sheep farmer and was editor of the Encyclopedia of
        Aboriginal Australia. He debunks many of the lies & underestimations
        by whitefellahs about Indig' peoples of this continent, but then
        introduces a few underestimations of his own, ie. he debunks
        different whitefella's partialities and then projects his own
        partialities from the specialisation of archaeology and especially
        simplistic underestimations about indig' farming (Fukuoka-defined
        farming) which is understandable & expectable given his emotional
        investment in his own sheep farm. I've read the anthropology paper,
        and many more of them, (Haynes & Chase, "Plant sites and
        domiculture") that he criticises about Oz Indig' farming in Cape
        York, and it is so obvious that they planted seeds there for food
        plants that for Horton to refuse to accept this is an absurd, even
        racist in a partial about-farming-or-horticulture-way,
        underestimating of Indig' people's of this continent. Even my local
        community indig friends have told me 'on the quiet' that
        transporting & planting native seeds for food is natural thing for
        them, their ancestors and their particular customs of their S.E. Oz
        culture.

        Nonetheless, while being wary of it limitations, it is a very
        worthwhile, important reading for the world to read about Oz. It is
        a good book to give to all those neighbours who you said thought or
        called you mad in what you're doing on farm. This is exactly what
        i've done here with success in gaining mutual understanding with my
        neighbours and their & my mutual joy. No madness accussations. It is
        even available as an Adobe ebook (ebooks.com) for US$7.95, normally
        AUD$30+ on paper.

        I'd also suggest for reading as first suggestions from me: Larissa
        Behrendt "Aboriginal Dispute Resolution". An Indig' young woman from
        SE Oz, a highly qualified lawyer, spokesperson on TV, etc. I've
        learn't profound lessons on how to live my own whitefellah life
        better from Larissa Behrendt, as she reccommends in that book. Did
        you read some of my earlier quotes and links about indig peoples,
        such as Eve Fesl's book "Conned" that i quoted the intro from.
        And "Ancestor Spirits", and Koorie Plants Koorie People, this would
        be a No. 1 book for you to get, in my humble opinion

        There are many native nitrogen fixers that would be the equal of
        clover in Oz, not that clover is bad in Oz, it is fairly harmless,
        not much weedy, but that can't be said for the changes it makes in
        the micro-organisms in Oz particularly, because we have our own
        unique sets of Oz micro-organisms with our plant species, to be
        clear it is not an either or choice though, just be careful and wary
        with clover - soil - micro-organisms in Oz, and as Fukuoka advises
        don't do anything at all that's unneccessary. She-oaks (Casuarina &
        Allocasuarina) are nitrogen fixers also to legumes and wattles.
        Murnong root vegetable grows in Tassie. It may be a threatened
        species like the Camas root vegetable in Canada that Stephen Inniss
        mentioned many moons ago as threatened and depleted around his
        town, - the solution rather than just the problem identification
        with this is to get in good terms with the Botanists, Jamie
        Kirkpatrick is a great one is Tassie, and help to grow this murnong
        on your place as an re-dispersal and regeneration of its former
        range if it is at all possible to grow on your place. Very good
        taste root raw or cooked. Could be a double good one for you Adam.
        Desmodium are one of many native legume genera around in Oz.

        > Cheers,

        > Adam.
        >
        > PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs
        book, I've ordered it today.

        Great!

        See Ya, Jyaa-ne
        Jason
      • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
        ... I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money as a source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means to satisfy needs . it
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
          > the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
          > dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
          > i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
          > root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
          > consider jean-claude),


          I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money as a
          source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means to satisfy
          needs .
          it is like trying to hit a nail with a rake or some other inapropriate
          tool.( like a plow to aerate the soil )
          IT is not question of being attached or not to any quantity of it but it is
          about removing peoples from the direct experience that occur in the
          circulation of energy.
          That is what is wrong with this concept of trying to symbolise, quantify
          circulation of energy ..
          it is like replacing by words the direct experience of observing something .

          Also and on top of that Nowhere in nature there is this idea <i give you
          that if you give me this > or any idea of storing beyond needs in case ...

          at last there is , even more so , the artificial regulation of the
          circulation of energy symbolised by money organised by the banking and
          financial system .That is nothing less that a very brutal way of depriving
          peoples from the possibility of satisfying their needs in a direct , real
          way ...
          jean-claude
        • Adam Carter
          Hi Jason, Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we seem to have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it is probably best
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
            Hi Jason,

            Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we seem to
            have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it is
            probably best we leave this thread for now. Otherwise we could be
            spending the rest of our lives going backward and forwards on this one
            :-)

            For the record, my wife is aboriginal. Although I'll also add that my
            perspectives we're formed independently of that fact.

            Like you, I have been on a long journey to arrive at where I am now.
            While we have arrived at different destinations, there is still much we
            have in common.

            Towards a better world,

            Adam.
          • animaphile
            Thanks so much fellahs for the energy of your writings, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments, Jean-claude, i agree with your oh so clear articulation of
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
              Thanks so much fellahs for the energy of your writings,
              I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments,
              Jean-claude, i agree with your oh so clear articulation of the
              corrupting limitation of money as a system of exchange (have i got
              this description right jean-claude?), my sentiment overlaps in
              meaning with that but is not identical with it. I don't care about
              money as something to be for or as something to fight against, i
              think fighting this would waste my energy, not that you, jean-claude
              are necessarily fighting against it when you're writing accurately
              descriptive and explanatory words. Paper/Plastic money, is just
              paper to me, it just represents something that it could be but is as
              useful on its own as a bit of bark of a tree. Metal money, is just a
              lump of metal to me,it just represents something that it could be
              but is as useful on its own as a sinker for fishing line. It's the
              concept of money in some (so many) people's heads that Jean-claude
              describes so well that i reject.
              Adam,
              Thanks, my reading of Fukuoka-sensei books and so on, emphasises to
              me that we are not of topic at all here, according to the way
              Fukuoka himself and Stephen Canner define Fukuoka_Farming. It is
              quite fruitful what you & Jean-claude are talking about, - reading
              of 4 English translation books and one Japanese book. See the
              following messages in the archive for listings of books everyone
              (from my offline archive) "Michiyo & Kyle's booklist FF msg no's:
              1019 1286 2325 2338 & even more important related 2374 2384 2385
              2386 2389 2876" & ( http://www.infomadonna.ne.jp/~ham/book.htm ). So
              don't worry about being off topic with this thread, please continue
              with this thread if you want to, tiredness and not being outside in
              the field is a different topic and from that we are maybe off the
              topic of not being out in our fields. Your a lucky man with your
              wife and place in Tassie. I'll contact you by email with
              `Aboriginal` intellectual nature information property links which i
              have a little incumbancy to privately return to respective people,
              and to share more personal dialogue that i don't make public with
              unknown strangers.

              Great communications,
              Arigato gozaimasu,
              Jason


              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
              Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
              >
              [animaphile - jason - wrote]
              > > the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money
              (both dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to
              money, i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money
              is the root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls
              at least consider jean-claude),
              >
              >
              > I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money
              as a source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means
              to satisfy needs .
              > it is like trying to hit a nail with a rake or some other
              inapropriate tool.( like a plow to aerate the soil )
              > IT is not question of being attached or not to any quantity of it
              but it is about removing peoples from the direct experience that
              occur in the circulation of energy.
              > That is what is wrong with this concept of trying to symbolise,
              quantify circulation of energy ..
              > it is like replacing by words the direct experience of observing
              something .
              >
              > Also and on top of that Nowhere in nature there is this idea <i
              give you that if you give me this > or any idea of storing beyond
              needs in case ...
              >
              > at last there is , even more so , the artificial regulation of the
              circulation of energy symbolised by money organised by the banking
              and financial system .That is nothing less that a very brutal way of
              depriving peoples from the possibility of satisfying their needs in
              a direct , real way ...
              > jean-claude

              --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
              wrote:
              > Hi Jason,
              >
              > Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we
              seem to have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it
              is probably best we leave this thread for now. Otherwise we could be
              spending the rest of our lives going backward and forwards on this
              one :-)
              >
              > For the record, my wife is aboriginal. Although I'll also add that
              my perspectives we're formed independently of that fact.
              >
              > Like you, I have been on a long journey to arrive at where I am
              now.
              > While we have arrived at different destinations, there is still
              much we have in common.
              >
              > Towards a better world,
              >
              > Adam.
            • animaphile
              ... people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than it returns.
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                >
                > [quoted Adam Carter wrote:]
                > > Hi Jason,
                > >
                > > In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts
                people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be
                sustainable indefinitely a culture must not take more from its
                environment than it returns. Stone age technology is sustainable,
                anything beyond that is not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and
                means to be more sustainable than we are now but that is not the
                same as being sustainable.
                > >
                > > Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that
                sums it up quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
                >
                >
                >
                > i am also thinking that way , and am ready myself to do the move
                toward this level of sustainiblity.... but not alone .

                Yes! Yes!, for me not alone -even not just one family alone, is such
                a neccessary point. Only as a society can it - practice, in my
                perception actually become sustainable (sustainable meaning that it
                continues to occur aswell as meaning that it continues not to do any
                unsustainable practices), it is necessary to make personal decisions
                to be sustainable all the time through one's life, but to continue
                personally one needs a conducive society aswell in the long/medium
                term of many decades. So many people have done it individually or
                personally in adverse societies but have become burn't out, i feel
                real compassion and concern for them doing it alone, so i think and
                i myself partly successfully practice influencing my communities in
                East Gippsland, Melbourne & Sydney to be more informed and
                sympathetic and practice themselves sustainability of the kind that
                Fukuoka points so clearly to. Not preaching is what i really try
                hard to do, even though communicating in a firm tone with my
                communities, i realise that often many of these people got their
                ideas that maintain their unsustainabilty from what they've read and
                heard in the media, so i often provide debunking media, books and
                radio and TV and newspapers to them, i have succeeded in some
                spinning-back the spin-out ideas of how to use human-ignited fire
                here and some reduction of peoples cultural cringe towards
                indigenous people's foods (called bush tucker or bushfood). It's not
                easy but is incidently socially very rewarding. Some seriously
                unsustainable people are very friendly toward me.


                > yet david suzuki goals that are more geared toward reducing
                drastically pollutions than sustainibility is really achievable in
                principal but one main obstacle is the artificiality of money
                economy orchestrated by banks and other wall street type of wealth
                maker that in no way represent the real exchange of energies ...

                i agree so true.

                > little farmers knows that ,they don't have a chance to be
                recognised for their performances into making more out of less.

                i agree so very true.

                > considering that the sun is constantly bombarding the earth , it is
                > completelly possible to produce more energy than is used up (
                creation is there to prove it )in opposition with other forms of
                farming that require more or less a deficit between what is produced
                and and what is spent.( mechanical ,chemical , monocultured and
                centralised agriculture being the worst .)

                i agree, good ?new insight for records on group.

                > David suzuki is a yuppi confortable kind of guy who are not
                willing to go to stone age technology even if it is what it takes
                to be really sustainable ( too bad he miss the opportunity to knows
                the comfort that comes from being willing to risk uncomfort ....

                so great a point, thank you

                > jean-claude

                Arigato,
                Jason
              • Gerald Whitehawk
                Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the other. That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have more than need.
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 10, 2004
                  Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the other.
                  That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have more than
                  need. When non-natural wishes fall, money non-useful. Earth beautiful
                  again. Too much in your heads, not-natural.

                  Use wise words of other people� but use them wisely? You have to go look
                  for your hearts in yourself, first. Natural?: eat, drink, piss, sleep� just
                  enough for natural necessities. Can you be happy with that? If not need
                  money, destroy Earth! The point of natural life, the perfection of spirit -
                  loosing ego.


                  >From: "animaphile" <animaphile@...>
                  >Reply-To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Environmental sustainability possible within
                  >a generation???
                  >Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:45:19 -0000
                  >
                  >--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                  >wrote:
                  > > Hi Jason,
                  >
                  > > I appreciate your detailed response.
                  >
                  >Thanks.
                  >You've come from Melbourne recently.
                  >I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life,
                  >participating in nature there, learn't all species of plants, both
                  >indig and introduced, 1500+, 600+ indig sp., most animals... great
                  >place for me, but i'm not a sympathiser of some people i know there
                  >who talk about overthrowing the city culture, i'm not a greeny-nazi,
                  >i couldn't and wouldn't want to destroy the people who live there or
                  >force them in any way, this would be so counter to compassion and to
                  >bringing up & out the good nature that is the underlying base of
                  >human nature. Even though the destruction of non-human nature there
                  >that i love all my life is/was so severe and pernicious. My
                  >experiences there were heartbreaking, many times many bushlands were
                  >needlessly and/or wantonly harmed in a sado-masochistic or merchant
                  >of death dealing way. Still good bush aswell and regeneration going
                  >too.
                  >
                  > > Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives
                  >that the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount
                  >of 'reform' is going to make a difference in the long run. There are
                  >increasing numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These
                  >people have not given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not
                  >confined to a civilised outlook.
                  >
                  >I agree with the intention or sentiment but the wording
                  >of 'foundations of civilisation are rotten' is rotten if anything
                  >is, if throwing out this word then really you need to change
                  >languages and throw out the english language also. Do you speak a
                  >different language from English? Japanese and Indig' languages of
                  >this continent are liberating examples, would you learn a Palawa
                  >language perhaps?
                  >What have you learn't about Indigenous people's of this continent so
                  >far, as from your posts you imply that you are an originally non-
                  >indig' person, hope i'm not wrong in this reading of your posts.
                  >Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre/Corporation is very worthwhile.
                  >
                  > > Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed
                  >in many different directions.
                  >
                  >Yeah!
                  >
                  > > Towards creating alternative means of subsistence and learning
                  >primitive skills.
                  >
                  >There's nothing primitive about primitives - know wha' a mean?
                  >I don't believe in alternatives or mainstreams, primitive or modern
                  >they both define themselves by what they are opposed to or what they
                  >are supposed not to be. Bring on at once becoming Eternal and MU!
                  >
                  > >Towards defending remaining wild places.
                  >Yeah!
                  >Regenerating is better again and doesn't sow the seed of its own
                  >conflict as defensiveness does.
                  > >Towards undermining civilisation itself.
                  >
                  >No need to undermine civilisation, just build a real one rather than
                  >pretend, false one, eg. Indigenous civilisations, peoples, societies
                  >of this continent. Jamie & Gloria's one's for Europe. etc.
                  >
                  > > Towards supporting surviving indigenous life ways.
                  >
                  >Yeah!
                  >Sorry to be feeling like an editor of your wording, i don't really
                  >presume to be an editor, rather it is continuing my detailed
                  >response, because i am absolutely convinced that there is no benefit
                  >in taking sides for anyone, you, me, or George W. Bush, Saddam, the
                  >spooks in the intelligence agencies or even Satan.
                  >
                  > > I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen
                  >(especially 'A Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
                  >Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in
                  >recovery from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel
                  >Quinn ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques
                  >of civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out
                  >for 'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial
                  >Societies' by Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive
                  >analysis of the coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of
                  >the 'sustainable' alternatives.
                  >
                  >Thanks it's the thought of yours that counts, i actually just had a
                  >thorough read of all the write-ups of books on his website, and
                  >after my own personal upbringing experiences i can say that i'm
                  >beyond the life-phase of dealing with my parental families problems.
                  >I've received alot of heart from indig' people's and different
                  >people's including takusan Nihonjin (many japanese people) and
                  >shared alot too, that has taken me beyond civilisation vs.
                  >primitive, western vs. eastern, white vs. black, asian vs. european,
                  >christian vs. 'other' than christian, eastern or japanese or
                  >aboriginal christian vs. western christian, secular vs. non-secular,
                  >materialistic vs. spiritual, man vs. woman, history vs. herstory,
                  >linear thinking vs. lateral thinking vs. multidimensional thinking,
                  >left brain vs. right brain, deep vs. shallow ecology (i've read
                  >literally a 1000 or more ecology science papers, not incl. books
                  >versus hundreds of (so called) deep ecology literatures, not to
                  >mention dialogues with people, etc.), greeny vs. browny vs. redneck,
                  >the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
                  >dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
                  >i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
                  >root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
                  >consider jean-claude), technocracy vs. luddism (technology was and
                  >is never the issue, people are the issue and their societies and
                  >choices made by people & societies about technology ie. attachment
                  >to for or against technology), paleao (lithic) vs. neo (lithic)
                  >(words mean literally old vs. new rocks - old stones vs. new
                  >stones), good vs. bad, attached-to-science vs. against-science vs.
                  >sucker-for-psuedo-science (all still dictated in mode of thinking by
                  >science, whether for or against or hoodwinked by), etc.
                  >There is an important section in Fukuoka's "Ultimatum of God
                  >Nature..." ("KAMI TO SHIZEN TO HITO NO KAKUMEI...") where he
                  >describes and discusses "Men who kill God", it is especially
                  >important for us men who have come from societies that have been
                  >dominated by nature destructive ideologies. The use of the word
                  >civilisation can be a very good meaning, furthermore it can be
                  >reclaimed by secure type people away from any destructive meanings
                  >to mean humane, civil, a citizen of God Nature, etc. There no reason
                  >to be a word-fashion-victim for Jensen or anyone, we make the
                  >language, not at the mercy of it, as we make the future every
                  >present moment! Does any of the writing above directly address
                  >Hawkins & Lovins "Natural Capitalism" i like to extract the
                  >happening empirical info out of that publ., it is spontaneous, up to
                  >date-ish more than most and edifying. I don't like it when anyone
                  >diminishes faith in human nature or any nature, there's nothing
                  >wrong with nature, there is some things wrong with some stuff in
                  >some poeple's heads not the least of which is us brought up in
                  >materialist, secular-christian, stratified, babylon-system...
                  >societies. But it is all only `in people's heads`. To paraphrase Tim
                  >Peters, if your yardstick or guidebook of life be wrong or you ask
                  >the wrong question then you have f..k all hope of getting the right
                  >answer or any answer. Bring on MU!
                  >
                  > > You wondered at how someone using electricity can write
                  >meaningfully about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have
                  >to wonder what it was like 10,000 years ago.
                  >
                  >I'd like you to explore that inconsitency some more that i
                  >mentioned, about myself and us, and whoever.
                  >
                  > >Less than 250 years ago the entire continent that you and I live on
                  >was living quite happily and sustainably with stone tools.
                  >
                  >Yes!
                  >But it wasn't BECAUSE of stone tools that they were/are happy or
                  >sustainable 250 years ago or today, that is the very materialistic
                  >(european if we like that word for a convention of assumed meaning)
                  >obsession with materials and technological determinisms, and also
                  >archaeologies largely dependence upon material artefacts, and
                  >whitefellah's societies, up till recently at least, reliance on
                  >archaeology as their abriter of truth about indigenous peoples of
                  >this continent. When really archaeology can only be misleading
                  >compared to simply directly asking to teach their civilisation
                  >& 'culture' & customs & spirituality. To emphasise indig' peoples of
                  >this continents' pre-eminence in religion/spirituality, society,
                  >kinship and social systems more than just & in addition to their
                  >tool technologies is more in keeping with what apparently makes my
                  >indig' friends today happy about themselves, and more about the
                  >strengths of their societies and cultures in being sustainable.
                  >
                  >Have you read David Horton's book "The Pure State of Nature" it is
                  >better than nothing, but like everything partial. He's an
                  >archaeologist, sheep farmer and was editor of the Encyclopedia of
                  >Aboriginal Australia. He debunks many of the lies & underestimations
                  >by whitefellahs about Indig' peoples of this continent, but then
                  >introduces a few underestimations of his own, ie. he debunks
                  >different whitefella's partialities and then projects his own
                  >partialities from the specialisation of archaeology and especially
                  >simplistic underestimations about indig' farming (Fukuoka-defined
                  >farming) which is understandable & expectable given his emotional
                  >investment in his own sheep farm. I've read the anthropology paper,
                  >and many more of them, (Haynes & Chase, "Plant sites and
                  >domiculture") that he criticises about Oz Indig' farming in Cape
                  >York, and it is so obvious that they planted seeds there for food
                  >plants that for Horton to refuse to accept this is an absurd, even
                  >racist in a partial about-farming-or-horticulture-way,
                  >underestimating of Indig' people's of this continent. Even my local
                  >community indig friends have told me 'on the quiet' that
                  >transporting & planting native seeds for food is natural thing for
                  >them, their ancestors and their particular customs of their S.E. Oz
                  >culture.
                  >
                  >Nonetheless, while being wary of it limitations, it is a very
                  >worthwhile, important reading for the world to read about Oz. It is
                  >a good book to give to all those neighbours who you said thought or
                  >called you mad in what you're doing on farm. This is exactly what
                  >i've done here with success in gaining mutual understanding with my
                  >neighbours and their & my mutual joy. No madness accussations. It is
                  >even available as an Adobe ebook (ebooks.com) for US$7.95, normally
                  >AUD$30+ on paper.
                  >
                  >I'd also suggest for reading as first suggestions from me: Larissa
                  >Behrendt "Aboriginal Dispute Resolution". An Indig' young woman from
                  >SE Oz, a highly qualified lawyer, spokesperson on TV, etc. I've
                  >learn't profound lessons on how to live my own whitefellah life
                  >better from Larissa Behrendt, as she reccommends in that book. Did
                  >you read some of my earlier quotes and links about indig peoples,
                  >such as Eve Fesl's book "Conned" that i quoted the intro from.
                  >And "Ancestor Spirits", and Koorie Plants Koorie People, this would
                  >be a No. 1 book for you to get, in my humble opinion
                  >
                  >There are many native nitrogen fixers that would be the equal of
                  >clover in Oz, not that clover is bad in Oz, it is fairly harmless,
                  >not much weedy, but that can't be said for the changes it makes in
                  >the micro-organisms in Oz particularly, because we have our own
                  >unique sets of Oz micro-organisms with our plant species, to be
                  >clear it is not an either or choice though, just be careful and wary
                  >with clover - soil - micro-organisms in Oz, and as Fukuoka advises
                  >don't do anything at all that's unneccessary. She-oaks (Casuarina &
                  >Allocasuarina) are nitrogen fixers also to legumes and wattles.
                  >Murnong root vegetable grows in Tassie. It may be a threatened
                  >species like the Camas root vegetable in Canada that Stephen Inniss
                  >mentioned many moons ago as threatened and depleted around his
                  >town, - the solution rather than just the problem identification
                  >with this is to get in good terms with the Botanists, Jamie
                  >Kirkpatrick is a great one is Tassie, and help to grow this murnong
                  >on your place as an re-dispersal and regeneration of its former
                  >range if it is at all possible to grow on your place. Very good
                  >taste root raw or cooked. Could be a double good one for you Adam.
                  >Desmodium are one of many native legume genera around in Oz.
                  >
                  > > Cheers,
                  >
                  > > Adam.
                  > >
                  > > PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs
                  >book, I've ordered it today.
                  >
                  >Great!
                  >
                  >See Ya, Jyaa-ne
                  >Jason
                  >

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                • macropneuma
                  ... other. ... more than ... beautiful ... go look ... sleep… just ... not need ... of spirit - ... Thankyou Beauty mate (Australian English similar to thank
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 10, 2004
                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Whitehawk"
                    <gwhitehawk@h...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the
                    other.
                    > That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have
                    more than
                    > need. When non-natural wishes fall, money non-useful. Earth
                    beautiful
                    > again. Too much in your heads, not-natural.
                    >
                    > Use wise words of other people… but use them wisely? You have to
                    go look
                    > for your hearts in yourself, first. Natural?: eat, drink, piss,
                    sleep… just
                    > enough for natural necessities. Can you be happy with that? If
                    not need
                    > money, destroy Earth! The point of natural life, the perfection
                    of spirit -
                    > loosing ego.


                    Thankyou
                    Beauty mate (Australian English similar to thank you)
                    Arigato gozaimasu (Japanese thank you)
                    I Agree including for myself.

                    Jason
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