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Re: Environmental sustainability possible within a generation???

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  • animaphile
    Dear Adam, Thanks your energy to write your words. Wouldn t you also think that Dr. Suzuki (-sensei) would also like to say that sort of thing in Jensen-sensei
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 6, 2004
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      Dear Adam,
      Thanks your energy to write your words.

      Wouldn't you also think that Dr. Suzuki (-sensei) would also like to
      say that sort of thing in Jensen-sensei writing to the Prime
      Minister of Canada, and that the happiness of all simultaneous with
      the impermanence of all would be his goal also, but to move away
      from not being whole like that (- at once happy & aware of the
      impermanence of the happiness), Suzuki-sensei when talking to the
      Prime Minister of Canada, and even more so the media & public would
      have to start graciously and in a, little, way, to remain being
      heard, with the view that 'from little things big things grow'. I
      mean not to be confused with being patient or compromising one's
      message because these just abandon or dumb down/deviate respectively
      the goal. I sharing the message to start with in a small way that
      keeps the listeners listening.

      Suzuki's plans i agree with
      (
      http://www.davidsuzuki.org/WOL/News_Releases/web_of_life02050401.asp
      )

      and your linked Derrick Jensen writing i agree with
      ( http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html ),

      can you see how this is possible?!

      Mu

      see (
      http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~ssb/access?Au=http%3A\
      %2F%2Fguest@...%2Fcgi-bin%2Fxpr-ddb.pl%3F71.xml%2Bid%28\
      %27b7121%27%29 )
      .

      See below your quoted for more, i'm writing words and writing in a
      form, layout, arrangement to attempt to benefit everyones awareness
      (es) aswell so that it's not just empty words.

      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
      wrote:
      > Hi Jason,
      >
      > In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts people
      from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable
      indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than
      it returns. Stone age technology is sustainable, anything beyond
      that is not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and means to be more
      sustainable than we are now but that is not the same as being
      sustainable.
      >
      > Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that sums
      it up quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
      >
      > Cheers,
      >
      > Adam.

      Suzuki-sensei i think is solving problems but his implementation of
      the solutions at present is incomplete, whether or not he fully
      understands the problems - i don't make judgements on this, because
      it would be dis-ingenuous of me to pass judgement on Suzuki-sensei
      or anyone really.
      Jensen-sensei, i think, has well articulated and well understood the
      particular problem he addresses in his writing above, but is not
      solving the problem in implemented practice or himself really
      manifestly getting beyond the mindset that created the problems. i
      don't like his labelling of stone-age, and the images or constructs
      that go with it - writing-acting in favour of a present-day
      European image of the past in what is presently labelled 'stone-
      age', just like i don't like it when people re-act against the label
      of stone-age, and just like i don't like the often cynical writing
      re-acting against and negating about the label of the golden age.
      The only 'age' that is any 'age' is right now. Right now is the only
      now in which we can act. Thanks also to Jamie for previously re-
      iterating here on this subject in his reponse to the "The Ultimatum
      of God Nature...". The only chance for a golden age is right now,
      the every now, the everywhen now (as compared to the word
      everything). So, if not already, if and when we, each of us has a
      truelly happy moment, that moment, that now, is a golden age. To
      make the golden age moment more often and everywhen is a goal, i am
      aware.

      Only European people call people in different in concept/societies,
      time/history or space/places:
      'stone age' people,
      'hunter-gatherer' people,
      cultured/savage people,
      civilised/brutish people,
      primitive/modern people, etc.
      Even also using the label racists which i have used, is subject to
      this inherent hypocrisy for us all.
      I don't believe in any of these labels as they are discrimination,
      passings of judgement, they all end up being prejudice. I minimise
      using them, i don't pretend to be able to stop using them or act to
      restrict their use by different people from me, though. It can only
      be the intended meaning of the sentence behind the label in the
      particular context of their use that i read and listen to.
      Fukuoka-sensei and many Indigenous sensei of this continent here are
      both pointing at the same destination, both very clear about it, and
      both becoming and/or maintaining that which could be called the
      everpresent everpossible golden age of every moment, but it's ever
      transient and is maintained by ever becoming to that destination of
      the golden age. (very difficult to put to words for me at this
      moment - i hope you's all get what's meant)

      The word farming in english is an additional word with an original
      meaning that is very problematical also as it is about
      peasants/slaves working out in the field on self-appointed or
      brutally-acquired `aristocrats` `owned` land. A better dramatisation
      than Jensen's above clear articulation of this problem is in the
      film "BraveHeart".
      However, we explicitly are on a Fukuoka-Farming group, and the word
      farming in Japanese English has none of these problems originally or
      now, it is not from the english meaning but is from the meaning of
      the Japanese word "Nou" which means nothing more repressive than out
      in the field, so far as all the times i've looked it up in Japanese
      Kanji dictionaries etc. I would be happy with a group called Shizen
      Nouhou, but this title alone would be self-defeating because many
      english readers of fukuoka-sensei books would not find it or would
      look for farming, natural farming, fukouka, etc. Combinations of
      words for reforming the title of the group or a new group have
      crossed my mind several times, but it's more academic than most
      problems of the world when we can all understand with a bit of
      communication that the farming we are talking about is that defined
      by Fukuoka not that defined by the english language history of the
      word Farming.

      How can anyone writing on a computer in a building with electricity
      or wherever write meaningfully of returning to 'stone-age'- i should
      say, even, write of their image of the stone age as more sustainable
      etc., i agree with Jensen's identification of the empirical problems
      but not the interpretation of the empirical problems into a
      civilised vs. stone-age dichotomy, neither do i agree with the lack
      of here and now solutions. It is romantic or re-acting against
      romantic, both are the same in that they are dictated by
      romanticism, to image-ine a different situation as more sustainable,
      it is the ever present possibility of being/becoming personally
      sustainable right this moment that is real, not romantic, and which
      is The Golden Age we all have the oppotunity to inhabit. These are
      so simple choices every moment at a personal level. eg. i can choose
      to stop writing on this computer now, it is not difficult at all to
      choose sustainable interventions now. Also i can choose to continue
      writing to hope to effect a benefit to many people reading this,
      open more sustainability than just in my person and if that happens
      thereby effect more sustainability than i could ever by stopping
      writing. These choices are always a very fine line, that line
      actually doesn't exist except in words and thoughts, so i'm aware
      that i must exercise enormous ego-control - self-discipline or
      whatever one calls it in these choices.

      It is the integration of what Suzuki-sensei and Jensen-sensei say,
      in which lays some movement closer to a golden age of right this
      moment. It could be hoped that they could perhaps directly talk with
      each other. This would be fruitfull, even more so.

      A further, wise, very to the point, perceptive person Jean-claude or
      should i say wise family, on this group put it so well in a previous
      message 3190 (including that it was written in a beautifully
      sensuous to me french style of english and including that it was not
      so much english english conforming to pedantic word perfect rules,
      spelling & definitons, as rather very meaningful usage plain english
      words with the spontaneity of some harmless spelling misses). Thank
      you so much Jean-Claude, whatever you do keep up the free english,
      especially for your posts.
      3190 by Jean-claude in part:
      "Nature is in charge , trying to fix with the mind that created the
      problem in the first place is the last trap we want to avoid . it is
      not because we have packed the soil that we have to till , nature
      will do it on its own .
      we wanted to produce more easy foods, we got the results, lets focus
      on better nutrition and being less obssessed with yields and
      everything we fall in its place . what is the point of growing all
      those fancy monsters from the cabbage familly when kale as a more
      primitive form is fullfulling all the jobs with better nutrition (
      you can eat the stems, the flowers, the buds, the leaves etc....
      they don't need to be obese to be abondant."

      Also to Jamie around this 3190 time in this group. To address from
      those posts one of Jamie's well communicated, in 3196, reservations
      about my explanation of the problems, where he said: "In my
      situating of NF as amelioration and not goal I hoped to express just
      this transience, this inability of totalising explanations: it is
      what concerns me about Jason's ruthless exposure of western
      domination and jean-claude's dietry regimen" that he was concerned
      that mine & Jean-claude's explanations are not totalising
      explanation. First, I agree, mine and they are nor totalising.
      Second, however, i made it very clear in my first posts to this
      group that all human's explanations, and awarenesses generally, are
      partial. i said and say this with joy not sadness, for one it is
      true, for two it is obvious, and for three it is, i'm aware, the
      reason we have for wanting to live, ie. that we all always have room
      for improving ourselves, both internally and in our effect
      externally on the everyone, and in our overcoming the difference
      between the internal and the external, by integrating it into shared
      consciousnesses. To everyone else this is a very rewarding part of
      the archive from my experience participating also here at that time:
      eg. see ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/3190 )
      and it's thread.

      Have any of you read Fukuoka-sensei referring to himself as a
      pantheist or even a panentheist or as an anarchist?

      I don't recall reading anywhere Fukuoka-sensei calling himself any
      of these things, even the chapter section in "The Ultimatum of God
      Nature..." about Agnosticism is an invention of the translator,
      because i went hunting for the Japanese word for Agnostic in my
      Japanese edition chapter and it is a vaguely similar sentence
      subject that Fukuoka-sensei talks about there, in the exactly the
      same paragraphs and subjects but there is no word agnostic in the
      Japanese. Of course correct me if i'm wrong on this point of record
      please. In the Japanese edition, the really philosophical section
      near the end, Fukuoka-sensei writes about the philosophy of Mu and
      shizen nouhou (spontaneous/nature farming - he Law/rules/methods as
      in translation the same english usage by Oz indigenous peoples of
      the Law for words such as Tjukurpa, Alcheringa -more like saying the
      law of the land, the rules of living, and the way of life) "(Mu) no
      tetsu gaku to shizen nou hou".

      shizen
      see (
      http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~ssb/access?Au=http%3A\
      %2F%2Fguest@...%2Fcgi-bin%2Fxpr-ddb.pl%3F81.xml%2Bid%28\
      %27b81ea-7136%27%29
      )

      Fukuoka-sensei then starts writing with the kanji word Mu.i

      see by pasting and searching for –³ˆ×

      also see (using the buddhist and earlier kanji read as 'i')(
      http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~ssb/access?Au=http%3A\
      %2F%2Fguest@...%2Fcgi-bin%2Fxpr-ddb.pl%3F71.xml%2Bid%28\
      %27b7121-7232%27%29
      )

      Cheers Adam, Thanks,

      Beauty mates,
      Jason
    • animaphile
      Whoops, sooorry! making some corrections - i don t have any computer myself working at home or electricity in the house at present (because of old batteries on
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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        Whoops, sooorry! making some corrections - i don't have any computer
        myself working at home or electricity in the house at present
        (because of old batteries on my solar electricity), so i don't have
        much free time on computer at my neighbours and rush sometimes, that
        should be

        `eg. see
        ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/3190 )
        and its associated threads`

        `In the Japanese edition, the really philosophical section
        near the end, Fukuoka-sensei writes about the philosophy of Mu and
        shizen nouhou (meaning spontaneous/nature farming - the
        Law/rules/methods, as,
        in translation, the same english usage by Oz indigenous peoples of
        "the Law" for words such as Tjukurpa, Alcheringa -more like saying
        the law of the land, the rules of living, and the way of life)
        "(Mu) no tetsu gaku to shizen nou hou".`

        and also i neglected to say Adam that not only do i agree with
        Jensen-sensei words, but with yours also, even though by this i mean
        the intention i percieve of both of your words rather than
        necessarily the particularities of the wording.

        Thanks again, great discussion Adam & Jean-claude

        Konban wa (Good evening in Japanese),

        Jason
      • Adam Carter
        Hi Jason, I appreciate your detailed response. Just a couple of things I d like to elaborate on. If one perceives that the foundations of civilisation are
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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          Hi Jason,

          I appreciate your detailed response.

          Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives that
          the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount of 'reform'
          is going to make a difference in the long run. There are increasing
          numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These people have not
          given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not confined to a
          civilised outlook.

          Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed in
          many different directions. Towards creating alternative means of
          subsistence and learning primitive skills. Towards defending remaining
          wild places. Towards undermining civilisation itself. Towards
          supporting surviving indigenous life ways.

          I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen (especially 'A
          Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
          Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in recovery
          from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel Quinn
          ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques of
          civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out for
          'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies' by
          Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive analysis of the
          coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of the 'sustainable'
          alternatives.

          You wondered at how someone using electricity can write meaningfully
          about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have to wonder what
          it was like 10,000 years ago. Less than 250 years ago the entire
          continent that you and I live on was living quite happily and
          sustainably with stone tools.

          Cheers,

          Adam.

          PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs book,
          I've ordered it today.
        • animaphile
          ... Thanks. You ve come from Melbourne recently. I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life, participating in nature there, learn t all species of
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
            wrote:
            > Hi Jason,

            > I appreciate your detailed response.

            Thanks.
            You've come from Melbourne recently.
            I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life,
            participating in nature there, learn't all species of plants, both
            indig and introduced, 1500+, 600+ indig sp., most animals... great
            place for me, but i'm not a sympathiser of some people i know there
            who talk about overthrowing the city culture, i'm not a greeny-nazi,
            i couldn't and wouldn't want to destroy the people who live there or
            force them in any way, this would be so counter to compassion and to
            bringing up & out the good nature that is the underlying base of
            human nature. Even though the destruction of non-human nature there
            that i love all my life is/was so severe and pernicious. My
            experiences there were heartbreaking, many times many bushlands were
            needlessly and/or wantonly harmed in a sado-masochistic or merchant
            of death dealing way. Still good bush aswell and regeneration going
            too.

            > Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives
            that the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount
            of 'reform' is going to make a difference in the long run. There are
            increasing numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These
            people have not given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not
            confined to a civilised outlook.

            I agree with the intention or sentiment but the wording
            of 'foundations of civilisation are rotten' is rotten if anything
            is, if throwing out this word then really you need to change
            languages and throw out the english language also. Do you speak a
            different language from English? Japanese and Indig' languages of
            this continent are liberating examples, would you learn a Palawa
            language perhaps?
            What have you learn't about Indigenous people's of this continent so
            far, as from your posts you imply that you are an originally non-
            indig' person, hope i'm not wrong in this reading of your posts.
            Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre/Corporation is very worthwhile.

            > Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed
            in many different directions.

            Yeah!

            > Towards creating alternative means of subsistence and learning
            primitive skills.

            There's nothing primitive about primitives - know wha' a mean?
            I don't believe in alternatives or mainstreams, primitive or modern
            they both define themselves by what they are opposed to or what they
            are supposed not to be. Bring on at once becoming Eternal and MU!

            >Towards defending remaining wild places.
            Yeah!
            Regenerating is better again and doesn't sow the seed of its own
            conflict as defensiveness does.
            >Towards undermining civilisation itself.

            No need to undermine civilisation, just build a real one rather than
            pretend, false one, eg. Indigenous civilisations, peoples, societies
            of this continent. Jamie & Gloria's one's for Europe. etc.

            > Towards supporting surviving indigenous life ways.

            Yeah!
            Sorry to be feeling like an editor of your wording, i don't really
            presume to be an editor, rather it is continuing my detailed
            response, because i am absolutely convinced that there is no benefit
            in taking sides for anyone, you, me, or George W. Bush, Saddam, the
            spooks in the intelligence agencies or even Satan.

            > I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen
            (especially 'A Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
            Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in
            recovery from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel
            Quinn ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques
            of civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out
            for 'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial
            Societies' by Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive
            analysis of the coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of
            the 'sustainable' alternatives.

            Thanks it's the thought of yours that counts, i actually just had a
            thorough read of all the write-ups of books on his website, and
            after my own personal upbringing experiences i can say that i'm
            beyond the life-phase of dealing with my parental families problems.
            I've received alot of heart from indig' people's and different
            people's including takusan Nihonjin (many japanese people) and
            shared alot too, that has taken me beyond civilisation vs.
            primitive, western vs. eastern, white vs. black, asian vs. european,
            christian vs. 'other' than christian, eastern or japanese or
            aboriginal christian vs. western christian, secular vs. non-secular,
            materialistic vs. spiritual, man vs. woman, history vs. herstory,
            linear thinking vs. lateral thinking vs. multidimensional thinking,
            left brain vs. right brain, deep vs. shallow ecology (i've read
            literally a 1000 or more ecology science papers, not incl. books
            versus hundreds of (so called) deep ecology literatures, not to
            mention dialogues with people, etc.), greeny vs. browny vs. redneck,
            the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
            dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
            i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
            root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
            consider jean-claude), technocracy vs. luddism (technology was and
            is never the issue, people are the issue and their societies and
            choices made by people & societies about technology ie. attachment
            to for or against technology), paleao (lithic) vs. neo (lithic)
            (words mean literally old vs. new rocks - old stones vs. new
            stones), good vs. bad, attached-to-science vs. against-science vs.
            sucker-for-psuedo-science (all still dictated in mode of thinking by
            science, whether for or against or hoodwinked by), etc.
            There is an important section in Fukuoka's "Ultimatum of God
            Nature..." ("KAMI TO SHIZEN TO HITO NO KAKUMEI...") where he
            describes and discusses "Men who kill God", it is especially
            important for us men who have come from societies that have been
            dominated by nature destructive ideologies. The use of the word
            civilisation can be a very good meaning, furthermore it can be
            reclaimed by secure type people away from any destructive meanings
            to mean humane, civil, a citizen of God Nature, etc. There no reason
            to be a word-fashion-victim for Jensen or anyone, we make the
            language, not at the mercy of it, as we make the future every
            present moment! Does any of the writing above directly address
            Hawkins & Lovins "Natural Capitalism" i like to extract the
            happening empirical info out of that publ., it is spontaneous, up to
            date-ish more than most and edifying. I don't like it when anyone
            diminishes faith in human nature or any nature, there's nothing
            wrong with nature, there is some things wrong with some stuff in
            some poeple's heads not the least of which is us brought up in
            materialist, secular-christian, stratified, babylon-system...
            societies. But it is all only `in people's heads`. To paraphrase Tim
            Peters, if your yardstick or guidebook of life be wrong or you ask
            the wrong question then you have f..k all hope of getting the right
            answer or any answer. Bring on MU!

            > You wondered at how someone using electricity can write
            meaningfully about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have
            to wonder what it was like 10,000 years ago.

            I'd like you to explore that inconsitency some more that i
            mentioned, about myself and us, and whoever.

            >Less than 250 years ago the entire continent that you and I live on
            was living quite happily and sustainably with stone tools.

            Yes!
            But it wasn't BECAUSE of stone tools that they were/are happy or
            sustainable 250 years ago or today, that is the very materialistic
            (european if we like that word for a convention of assumed meaning)
            obsession with materials and technological determinisms, and also
            archaeologies largely dependence upon material artefacts, and
            whitefellah's societies, up till recently at least, reliance on
            archaeology as their abriter of truth about indigenous peoples of
            this continent. When really archaeology can only be misleading
            compared to simply directly asking to teach their civilisation
            & 'culture' & customs & spirituality. To emphasise indig' peoples of
            this continents' pre-eminence in religion/spirituality, society,
            kinship and social systems more than just & in addition to their
            tool technologies is more in keeping with what apparently makes my
            indig' friends today happy about themselves, and more about the
            strengths of their societies and cultures in being sustainable.

            Have you read David Horton's book "The Pure State of Nature" it is
            better than nothing, but like everything partial. He's an
            archaeologist, sheep farmer and was editor of the Encyclopedia of
            Aboriginal Australia. He debunks many of the lies & underestimations
            by whitefellahs about Indig' peoples of this continent, but then
            introduces a few underestimations of his own, ie. he debunks
            different whitefella's partialities and then projects his own
            partialities from the specialisation of archaeology and especially
            simplistic underestimations about indig' farming (Fukuoka-defined
            farming) which is understandable & expectable given his emotional
            investment in his own sheep farm. I've read the anthropology paper,
            and many more of them, (Haynes & Chase, "Plant sites and
            domiculture") that he criticises about Oz Indig' farming in Cape
            York, and it is so obvious that they planted seeds there for food
            plants that for Horton to refuse to accept this is an absurd, even
            racist in a partial about-farming-or-horticulture-way,
            underestimating of Indig' people's of this continent. Even my local
            community indig friends have told me 'on the quiet' that
            transporting & planting native seeds for food is natural thing for
            them, their ancestors and their particular customs of their S.E. Oz
            culture.

            Nonetheless, while being wary of it limitations, it is a very
            worthwhile, important reading for the world to read about Oz. It is
            a good book to give to all those neighbours who you said thought or
            called you mad in what you're doing on farm. This is exactly what
            i've done here with success in gaining mutual understanding with my
            neighbours and their & my mutual joy. No madness accussations. It is
            even available as an Adobe ebook (ebooks.com) for US$7.95, normally
            AUD$30+ on paper.

            I'd also suggest for reading as first suggestions from me: Larissa
            Behrendt "Aboriginal Dispute Resolution". An Indig' young woman from
            SE Oz, a highly qualified lawyer, spokesperson on TV, etc. I've
            learn't profound lessons on how to live my own whitefellah life
            better from Larissa Behrendt, as she reccommends in that book. Did
            you read some of my earlier quotes and links about indig peoples,
            such as Eve Fesl's book "Conned" that i quoted the intro from.
            And "Ancestor Spirits", and Koorie Plants Koorie People, this would
            be a No. 1 book for you to get, in my humble opinion

            There are many native nitrogen fixers that would be the equal of
            clover in Oz, not that clover is bad in Oz, it is fairly harmless,
            not much weedy, but that can't be said for the changes it makes in
            the micro-organisms in Oz particularly, because we have our own
            unique sets of Oz micro-organisms with our plant species, to be
            clear it is not an either or choice though, just be careful and wary
            with clover - soil - micro-organisms in Oz, and as Fukuoka advises
            don't do anything at all that's unneccessary. She-oaks (Casuarina &
            Allocasuarina) are nitrogen fixers also to legumes and wattles.
            Murnong root vegetable grows in Tassie. It may be a threatened
            species like the Camas root vegetable in Canada that Stephen Inniss
            mentioned many moons ago as threatened and depleted around his
            town, - the solution rather than just the problem identification
            with this is to get in good terms with the Botanists, Jamie
            Kirkpatrick is a great one is Tassie, and help to grow this murnong
            on your place as an re-dispersal and regeneration of its former
            range if it is at all possible to grow on your place. Very good
            taste root raw or cooked. Could be a double good one for you Adam.
            Desmodium are one of many native legume genera around in Oz.

            > Cheers,

            > Adam.
            >
            > PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs
            book, I've ordered it today.

            Great!

            See Ya, Jyaa-ne
            Jason
          • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
            ... I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money as a source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means to satisfy needs . it
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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              > the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
              > dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
              > i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
              > root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
              > consider jean-claude),


              I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money as a
              source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means to satisfy
              needs .
              it is like trying to hit a nail with a rake or some other inapropriate
              tool.( like a plow to aerate the soil )
              IT is not question of being attached or not to any quantity of it but it is
              about removing peoples from the direct experience that occur in the
              circulation of energy.
              That is what is wrong with this concept of trying to symbolise, quantify
              circulation of energy ..
              it is like replacing by words the direct experience of observing something .

              Also and on top of that Nowhere in nature there is this idea <i give you
              that if you give me this > or any idea of storing beyond needs in case ...

              at last there is , even more so , the artificial regulation of the
              circulation of energy symbolised by money organised by the banking and
              financial system .That is nothing less that a very brutal way of depriving
              peoples from the possibility of satisfying their needs in a direct , real
              way ...
              jean-claude
            • Adam Carter
              Hi Jason, Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we seem to have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it is probably best
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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                Hi Jason,

                Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we seem to
                have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it is
                probably best we leave this thread for now. Otherwise we could be
                spending the rest of our lives going backward and forwards on this one
                :-)

                For the record, my wife is aboriginal. Although I'll also add that my
                perspectives we're formed independently of that fact.

                Like you, I have been on a long journey to arrive at where I am now.
                While we have arrived at different destinations, there is still much we
                have in common.

                Towards a better world,

                Adam.
              • animaphile
                Thanks so much fellahs for the energy of your writings, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments, Jean-claude, i agree with your oh so clear articulation of
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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                  Thanks so much fellahs for the energy of your writings,
                  I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments,
                  Jean-claude, i agree with your oh so clear articulation of the
                  corrupting limitation of money as a system of exchange (have i got
                  this description right jean-claude?), my sentiment overlaps in
                  meaning with that but is not identical with it. I don't care about
                  money as something to be for or as something to fight against, i
                  think fighting this would waste my energy, not that you, jean-claude
                  are necessarily fighting against it when you're writing accurately
                  descriptive and explanatory words. Paper/Plastic money, is just
                  paper to me, it just represents something that it could be but is as
                  useful on its own as a bit of bark of a tree. Metal money, is just a
                  lump of metal to me,it just represents something that it could be
                  but is as useful on its own as a sinker for fishing line. It's the
                  concept of money in some (so many) people's heads that Jean-claude
                  describes so well that i reject.
                  Adam,
                  Thanks, my reading of Fukuoka-sensei books and so on, emphasises to
                  me that we are not of topic at all here, according to the way
                  Fukuoka himself and Stephen Canner define Fukuoka_Farming. It is
                  quite fruitful what you & Jean-claude are talking about, - reading
                  of 4 English translation books and one Japanese book. See the
                  following messages in the archive for listings of books everyone
                  (from my offline archive) "Michiyo & Kyle's booklist FF msg no's:
                  1019 1286 2325 2338 & even more important related 2374 2384 2385
                  2386 2389 2876" & ( http://www.infomadonna.ne.jp/~ham/book.htm ). So
                  don't worry about being off topic with this thread, please continue
                  with this thread if you want to, tiredness and not being outside in
                  the field is a different topic and from that we are maybe off the
                  topic of not being out in our fields. Your a lucky man with your
                  wife and place in Tassie. I'll contact you by email with
                  `Aboriginal` intellectual nature information property links which i
                  have a little incumbancy to privately return to respective people,
                  and to share more personal dialogue that i don't make public with
                  unknown strangers.

                  Great communications,
                  Arigato gozaimasu,
                  Jason


                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                  Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                  >
                  [animaphile - jason - wrote]
                  > > the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money
                  (both dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to
                  money, i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money
                  is the root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls
                  at least consider jean-claude),
                  >
                  >
                  > I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money
                  as a source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means
                  to satisfy needs .
                  > it is like trying to hit a nail with a rake or some other
                  inapropriate tool.( like a plow to aerate the soil )
                  > IT is not question of being attached or not to any quantity of it
                  but it is about removing peoples from the direct experience that
                  occur in the circulation of energy.
                  > That is what is wrong with this concept of trying to symbolise,
                  quantify circulation of energy ..
                  > it is like replacing by words the direct experience of observing
                  something .
                  >
                  > Also and on top of that Nowhere in nature there is this idea <i
                  give you that if you give me this > or any idea of storing beyond
                  needs in case ...
                  >
                  > at last there is , even more so , the artificial regulation of the
                  circulation of energy symbolised by money organised by the banking
                  and financial system .That is nothing less that a very brutal way of
                  depriving peoples from the possibility of satisfying their needs in
                  a direct , real way ...
                  > jean-claude

                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                  wrote:
                  > Hi Jason,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we
                  seem to have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it
                  is probably best we leave this thread for now. Otherwise we could be
                  spending the rest of our lives going backward and forwards on this
                  one :-)
                  >
                  > For the record, my wife is aboriginal. Although I'll also add that
                  my perspectives we're formed independently of that fact.
                  >
                  > Like you, I have been on a long journey to arrive at where I am
                  now.
                  > While we have arrived at different destinations, there is still
                  much we have in common.
                  >
                  > Towards a better world,
                  >
                  > Adam.
                • animaphile
                  ... people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than it returns.
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
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                    --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                    Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                    >
                    > [quoted Adam Carter wrote:]
                    > > Hi Jason,
                    > >
                    > > In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts
                    people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be
                    sustainable indefinitely a culture must not take more from its
                    environment than it returns. Stone age technology is sustainable,
                    anything beyond that is not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and
                    means to be more sustainable than we are now but that is not the
                    same as being sustainable.
                    > >
                    > > Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that
                    sums it up quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > i am also thinking that way , and am ready myself to do the move
                    toward this level of sustainiblity.... but not alone .

                    Yes! Yes!, for me not alone -even not just one family alone, is such
                    a neccessary point. Only as a society can it - practice, in my
                    perception actually become sustainable (sustainable meaning that it
                    continues to occur aswell as meaning that it continues not to do any
                    unsustainable practices), it is necessary to make personal decisions
                    to be sustainable all the time through one's life, but to continue
                    personally one needs a conducive society aswell in the long/medium
                    term of many decades. So many people have done it individually or
                    personally in adverse societies but have become burn't out, i feel
                    real compassion and concern for them doing it alone, so i think and
                    i myself partly successfully practice influencing my communities in
                    East Gippsland, Melbourne & Sydney to be more informed and
                    sympathetic and practice themselves sustainability of the kind that
                    Fukuoka points so clearly to. Not preaching is what i really try
                    hard to do, even though communicating in a firm tone with my
                    communities, i realise that often many of these people got their
                    ideas that maintain their unsustainabilty from what they've read and
                    heard in the media, so i often provide debunking media, books and
                    radio and TV and newspapers to them, i have succeeded in some
                    spinning-back the spin-out ideas of how to use human-ignited fire
                    here and some reduction of peoples cultural cringe towards
                    indigenous people's foods (called bush tucker or bushfood). It's not
                    easy but is incidently socially very rewarding. Some seriously
                    unsustainable people are very friendly toward me.


                    > yet david suzuki goals that are more geared toward reducing
                    drastically pollutions than sustainibility is really achievable in
                    principal but one main obstacle is the artificiality of money
                    economy orchestrated by banks and other wall street type of wealth
                    maker that in no way represent the real exchange of energies ...

                    i agree so true.

                    > little farmers knows that ,they don't have a chance to be
                    recognised for their performances into making more out of less.

                    i agree so very true.

                    > considering that the sun is constantly bombarding the earth , it is
                    > completelly possible to produce more energy than is used up (
                    creation is there to prove it )in opposition with other forms of
                    farming that require more or less a deficit between what is produced
                    and and what is spent.( mechanical ,chemical , monocultured and
                    centralised agriculture being the worst .)

                    i agree, good ?new insight for records on group.

                    > David suzuki is a yuppi confortable kind of guy who are not
                    willing to go to stone age technology even if it is what it takes
                    to be really sustainable ( too bad he miss the opportunity to knows
                    the comfort that comes from being willing to risk uncomfort ....

                    so great a point, thank you

                    > jean-claude

                    Arigato,
                    Jason
                  • Gerald Whitehawk
                    Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the other. That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have more than need.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 10, 2004
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                      Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the other.
                      That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have more than
                      need. When non-natural wishes fall, money non-useful. Earth beautiful
                      again. Too much in your heads, not-natural.

                      Use wise words of other people� but use them wisely? You have to go look
                      for your hearts in yourself, first. Natural?: eat, drink, piss, sleep� just
                      enough for natural necessities. Can you be happy with that? If not need
                      money, destroy Earth! The point of natural life, the perfection of spirit -
                      loosing ego.


                      >From: "animaphile" <animaphile@...>
                      >Reply-To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                      >Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Environmental sustainability possible within
                      >a generation???
                      >Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:45:19 -0000
                      >
                      >--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                      >wrote:
                      > > Hi Jason,
                      >
                      > > I appreciate your detailed response.
                      >
                      >Thanks.
                      >You've come from Melbourne recently.
                      >I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life,
                      >participating in nature there, learn't all species of plants, both
                      >indig and introduced, 1500+, 600+ indig sp., most animals... great
                      >place for me, but i'm not a sympathiser of some people i know there
                      >who talk about overthrowing the city culture, i'm not a greeny-nazi,
                      >i couldn't and wouldn't want to destroy the people who live there or
                      >force them in any way, this would be so counter to compassion and to
                      >bringing up & out the good nature that is the underlying base of
                      >human nature. Even though the destruction of non-human nature there
                      >that i love all my life is/was so severe and pernicious. My
                      >experiences there were heartbreaking, many times many bushlands were
                      >needlessly and/or wantonly harmed in a sado-masochistic or merchant
                      >of death dealing way. Still good bush aswell and regeneration going
                      >too.
                      >
                      > > Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives
                      >that the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount
                      >of 'reform' is going to make a difference in the long run. There are
                      >increasing numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These
                      >people have not given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not
                      >confined to a civilised outlook.
                      >
                      >I agree with the intention or sentiment but the wording
                      >of 'foundations of civilisation are rotten' is rotten if anything
                      >is, if throwing out this word then really you need to change
                      >languages and throw out the english language also. Do you speak a
                      >different language from English? Japanese and Indig' languages of
                      >this continent are liberating examples, would you learn a Palawa
                      >language perhaps?
                      >What have you learn't about Indigenous people's of this continent so
                      >far, as from your posts you imply that you are an originally non-
                      >indig' person, hope i'm not wrong in this reading of your posts.
                      >Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre/Corporation is very worthwhile.
                      >
                      > > Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed
                      >in many different directions.
                      >
                      >Yeah!
                      >
                      > > Towards creating alternative means of subsistence and learning
                      >primitive skills.
                      >
                      >There's nothing primitive about primitives - know wha' a mean?
                      >I don't believe in alternatives or mainstreams, primitive or modern
                      >they both define themselves by what they are opposed to or what they
                      >are supposed not to be. Bring on at once becoming Eternal and MU!
                      >
                      > >Towards defending remaining wild places.
                      >Yeah!
                      >Regenerating is better again and doesn't sow the seed of its own
                      >conflict as defensiveness does.
                      > >Towards undermining civilisation itself.
                      >
                      >No need to undermine civilisation, just build a real one rather than
                      >pretend, false one, eg. Indigenous civilisations, peoples, societies
                      >of this continent. Jamie & Gloria's one's for Europe. etc.
                      >
                      > > Towards supporting surviving indigenous life ways.
                      >
                      >Yeah!
                      >Sorry to be feeling like an editor of your wording, i don't really
                      >presume to be an editor, rather it is continuing my detailed
                      >response, because i am absolutely convinced that there is no benefit
                      >in taking sides for anyone, you, me, or George W. Bush, Saddam, the
                      >spooks in the intelligence agencies or even Satan.
                      >
                      > > I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen
                      >(especially 'A Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
                      >Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in
                      >recovery from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel
                      >Quinn ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques
                      >of civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out
                      >for 'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial
                      >Societies' by Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive
                      >analysis of the coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of
                      >the 'sustainable' alternatives.
                      >
                      >Thanks it's the thought of yours that counts, i actually just had a
                      >thorough read of all the write-ups of books on his website, and
                      >after my own personal upbringing experiences i can say that i'm
                      >beyond the life-phase of dealing with my parental families problems.
                      >I've received alot of heart from indig' people's and different
                      >people's including takusan Nihonjin (many japanese people) and
                      >shared alot too, that has taken me beyond civilisation vs.
                      >primitive, western vs. eastern, white vs. black, asian vs. european,
                      >christian vs. 'other' than christian, eastern or japanese or
                      >aboriginal christian vs. western christian, secular vs. non-secular,
                      >materialistic vs. spiritual, man vs. woman, history vs. herstory,
                      >linear thinking vs. lateral thinking vs. multidimensional thinking,
                      >left brain vs. right brain, deep vs. shallow ecology (i've read
                      >literally a 1000 or more ecology science papers, not incl. books
                      >versus hundreds of (so called) deep ecology literatures, not to
                      >mention dialogues with people, etc.), greeny vs. browny vs. redneck,
                      >the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
                      >dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
                      >i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
                      >root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
                      >consider jean-claude), technocracy vs. luddism (technology was and
                      >is never the issue, people are the issue and their societies and
                      >choices made by people & societies about technology ie. attachment
                      >to for or against technology), paleao (lithic) vs. neo (lithic)
                      >(words mean literally old vs. new rocks - old stones vs. new
                      >stones), good vs. bad, attached-to-science vs. against-science vs.
                      >sucker-for-psuedo-science (all still dictated in mode of thinking by
                      >science, whether for or against or hoodwinked by), etc.
                      >There is an important section in Fukuoka's "Ultimatum of God
                      >Nature..." ("KAMI TO SHIZEN TO HITO NO KAKUMEI...") where he
                      >describes and discusses "Men who kill God", it is especially
                      >important for us men who have come from societies that have been
                      >dominated by nature destructive ideologies. The use of the word
                      >civilisation can be a very good meaning, furthermore it can be
                      >reclaimed by secure type people away from any destructive meanings
                      >to mean humane, civil, a citizen of God Nature, etc. There no reason
                      >to be a word-fashion-victim for Jensen or anyone, we make the
                      >language, not at the mercy of it, as we make the future every
                      >present moment! Does any of the writing above directly address
                      >Hawkins & Lovins "Natural Capitalism" i like to extract the
                      >happening empirical info out of that publ., it is spontaneous, up to
                      >date-ish more than most and edifying. I don't like it when anyone
                      >diminishes faith in human nature or any nature, there's nothing
                      >wrong with nature, there is some things wrong with some stuff in
                      >some poeple's heads not the least of which is us brought up in
                      >materialist, secular-christian, stratified, babylon-system...
                      >societies. But it is all only `in people's heads`. To paraphrase Tim
                      >Peters, if your yardstick or guidebook of life be wrong or you ask
                      >the wrong question then you have f..k all hope of getting the right
                      >answer or any answer. Bring on MU!
                      >
                      > > You wondered at how someone using electricity can write
                      >meaningfully about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have
                      >to wonder what it was like 10,000 years ago.
                      >
                      >I'd like you to explore that inconsitency some more that i
                      >mentioned, about myself and us, and whoever.
                      >
                      > >Less than 250 years ago the entire continent that you and I live on
                      >was living quite happily and sustainably with stone tools.
                      >
                      >Yes!
                      >But it wasn't BECAUSE of stone tools that they were/are happy or
                      >sustainable 250 years ago or today, that is the very materialistic
                      >(european if we like that word for a convention of assumed meaning)
                      >obsession with materials and technological determinisms, and also
                      >archaeologies largely dependence upon material artefacts, and
                      >whitefellah's societies, up till recently at least, reliance on
                      >archaeology as their abriter of truth about indigenous peoples of
                      >this continent. When really archaeology can only be misleading
                      >compared to simply directly asking to teach their civilisation
                      >& 'culture' & customs & spirituality. To emphasise indig' peoples of
                      >this continents' pre-eminence in religion/spirituality, society,
                      >kinship and social systems more than just & in addition to their
                      >tool technologies is more in keeping with what apparently makes my
                      >indig' friends today happy about themselves, and more about the
                      >strengths of their societies and cultures in being sustainable.
                      >
                      >Have you read David Horton's book "The Pure State of Nature" it is
                      >better than nothing, but like everything partial. He's an
                      >archaeologist, sheep farmer and was editor of the Encyclopedia of
                      >Aboriginal Australia. He debunks many of the lies & underestimations
                      >by whitefellahs about Indig' peoples of this continent, but then
                      >introduces a few underestimations of his own, ie. he debunks
                      >different whitefella's partialities and then projects his own
                      >partialities from the specialisation of archaeology and especially
                      >simplistic underestimations about indig' farming (Fukuoka-defined
                      >farming) which is understandable & expectable given his emotional
                      >investment in his own sheep farm. I've read the anthropology paper,
                      >and many more of them, (Haynes & Chase, "Plant sites and
                      >domiculture") that he criticises about Oz Indig' farming in Cape
                      >York, and it is so obvious that they planted seeds there for food
                      >plants that for Horton to refuse to accept this is an absurd, even
                      >racist in a partial about-farming-or-horticulture-way,
                      >underestimating of Indig' people's of this continent. Even my local
                      >community indig friends have told me 'on the quiet' that
                      >transporting & planting native seeds for food is natural thing for
                      >them, their ancestors and their particular customs of their S.E. Oz
                      >culture.
                      >
                      >Nonetheless, while being wary of it limitations, it is a very
                      >worthwhile, important reading for the world to read about Oz. It is
                      >a good book to give to all those neighbours who you said thought or
                      >called you mad in what you're doing on farm. This is exactly what
                      >i've done here with success in gaining mutual understanding with my
                      >neighbours and their & my mutual joy. No madness accussations. It is
                      >even available as an Adobe ebook (ebooks.com) for US$7.95, normally
                      >AUD$30+ on paper.
                      >
                      >I'd also suggest for reading as first suggestions from me: Larissa
                      >Behrendt "Aboriginal Dispute Resolution". An Indig' young woman from
                      >SE Oz, a highly qualified lawyer, spokesperson on TV, etc. I've
                      >learn't profound lessons on how to live my own whitefellah life
                      >better from Larissa Behrendt, as she reccommends in that book. Did
                      >you read some of my earlier quotes and links about indig peoples,
                      >such as Eve Fesl's book "Conned" that i quoted the intro from.
                      >And "Ancestor Spirits", and Koorie Plants Koorie People, this would
                      >be a No. 1 book for you to get, in my humble opinion
                      >
                      >There are many native nitrogen fixers that would be the equal of
                      >clover in Oz, not that clover is bad in Oz, it is fairly harmless,
                      >not much weedy, but that can't be said for the changes it makes in
                      >the micro-organisms in Oz particularly, because we have our own
                      >unique sets of Oz micro-organisms with our plant species, to be
                      >clear it is not an either or choice though, just be careful and wary
                      >with clover - soil - micro-organisms in Oz, and as Fukuoka advises
                      >don't do anything at all that's unneccessary. She-oaks (Casuarina &
                      >Allocasuarina) are nitrogen fixers also to legumes and wattles.
                      >Murnong root vegetable grows in Tassie. It may be a threatened
                      >species like the Camas root vegetable in Canada that Stephen Inniss
                      >mentioned many moons ago as threatened and depleted around his
                      >town, - the solution rather than just the problem identification
                      >with this is to get in good terms with the Botanists, Jamie
                      >Kirkpatrick is a great one is Tassie, and help to grow this murnong
                      >on your place as an re-dispersal and regeneration of its former
                      >range if it is at all possible to grow on your place. Very good
                      >taste root raw or cooked. Could be a double good one for you Adam.
                      >Desmodium are one of many native legume genera around in Oz.
                      >
                      > > Cheers,
                      >
                      > > Adam.
                      > >
                      > > PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs
                      >book, I've ordered it today.
                      >
                      >Great!
                      >
                      >See Ya, Jyaa-ne
                      >Jason
                      >

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                    • macropneuma
                      ... other. ... more than ... beautiful ... go look ... sleep… just ... not need ... of spirit - ... Thankyou Beauty mate (Australian English similar to thank
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 10, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Whitehawk"
                        <gwhitehawk@h...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the
                        other.
                        > That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have
                        more than
                        > need. When non-natural wishes fall, money non-useful. Earth
                        beautiful
                        > again. Too much in your heads, not-natural.
                        >
                        > Use wise words of other people… but use them wisely? You have to
                        go look
                        > for your hearts in yourself, first. Natural?: eat, drink, piss,
                        sleep… just
                        > enough for natural necessities. Can you be happy with that? If
                        not need
                        > money, destroy Earth! The point of natural life, the perfection
                        of spirit -
                        > loosing ego.


                        Thankyou
                        Beauty mate (Australian English similar to thank you)
                        Arigato gozaimasu (Japanese thank you)
                        I Agree including for myself.

                        Jason
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