Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [fukuoka_farming] Environmental sustainability possible within a generation???

Expand Messages
  • Adam Carter
    Hi Jason, In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable indefinitely a
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 6, 2004
    • 0 Attachment
      Hi Jason,

      In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts people from
      the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable
      indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than it
      returns. Stone age technology is sustainable, anything beyond that is
      not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and means to be more sustainable
      than we are now but that is not the same as being sustainable.

      Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that sums it up
      quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html

      Cheers,

      Adam.

      On 07/02/2004, at 10:46 AM, animaphile wrote:

      > Environmental sustainability possible within a generation,
      > Dr. Suzuki tells Prime Minister and municipal leaders.
      >
      > see
      > (
      > http://www.davidsuzuki.org/WOL/News_Releases/web_of_life02050401.asp
      > )
      >
      > Some more good news for perhaps a change.
      >
      > Kindness & blessings to all,
      > Jyaa-ne (See Ya in Japanese),
      > Jason
    • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
      ... i am also thinking that way , and am ready myself to do the move toward this level of sustainiblity.... but not alone . yet david suzuki goals that are
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 6, 2004
      • 0 Attachment
        > Hi Jason,
        >
        > In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts people from
        > the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable
        > indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than it
        > returns. Stone age technology is sustainable, anything beyond that is
        > not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and means to be more sustainable
        > than we are now but that is not the same as being sustainable.
        >
        > Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that sums it up
        > quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
        >
        >

        i am also thinking that way , and am ready myself to do the move toward this
        level of sustainiblity.... but not alone .

        yet david suzuki goals that are more geared toward reducing drastically
        pollutions than sustainibility is really achievable in principal but one
        main obstacle is the artificiality of money economy orchestrated by banks
        and other wall street type of wealth maker that in no way represent the real
        exchange of energies ...

        little farmers knows that ,they don't have a chance to be recognised for
        their performances into making more out of less.

        considering that the sun is constantly bombarding the earth , it is
        completelly possible to produce more energy than is used up ( creation is
        there to prove it )in opposition with other forms of farming that require
        more or less a deficit between what is produced and and what is spent.(
        mechanical ,chemical , monocultured and centralised agriculture being the
        worst .)

        David suzuki is a yuppi confortable kind of guy who are not willing to go to
        stone age technology even if it is what it takes to be really sustainable
        ( too bad he miss the opportunity to knows the comfort that comes from being
        willing to risk uncomfort ....

        jean-claude
      • animaphile
        Dear Adam, Thanks your energy to write your words. Wouldn t you also think that Dr. Suzuki (-sensei) would also like to say that sort of thing in Jensen-sensei
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 6, 2004
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Adam,
          Thanks your energy to write your words.

          Wouldn't you also think that Dr. Suzuki (-sensei) would also like to
          say that sort of thing in Jensen-sensei writing to the Prime
          Minister of Canada, and that the happiness of all simultaneous with
          the impermanence of all would be his goal also, but to move away
          from not being whole like that (- at once happy & aware of the
          impermanence of the happiness), Suzuki-sensei when talking to the
          Prime Minister of Canada, and even more so the media & public would
          have to start graciously and in a, little, way, to remain being
          heard, with the view that 'from little things big things grow'. I
          mean not to be confused with being patient or compromising one's
          message because these just abandon or dumb down/deviate respectively
          the goal. I sharing the message to start with in a small way that
          keeps the listeners listening.

          Suzuki's plans i agree with
          (
          http://www.davidsuzuki.org/WOL/News_Releases/web_of_life02050401.asp
          )

          and your linked Derrick Jensen writing i agree with
          ( http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html ),

          can you see how this is possible?!

          Mu

          see (
          http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~ssb/access?Au=http%3A\
          %2F%2Fguest@...%2Fcgi-bin%2Fxpr-ddb.pl%3F71.xml%2Bid%28\
          %27b7121%27%29 )
          .

          See below your quoted for more, i'm writing words and writing in a
          form, layout, arrangement to attempt to benefit everyones awareness
          (es) aswell so that it's not just empty words.

          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
          wrote:
          > Hi Jason,
          >
          > In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts people
          from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable
          indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than
          it returns. Stone age technology is sustainable, anything beyond
          that is not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and means to be more
          sustainable than we are now but that is not the same as being
          sustainable.
          >
          > Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that sums
          it up quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
          >
          > Cheers,
          >
          > Adam.

          Suzuki-sensei i think is solving problems but his implementation of
          the solutions at present is incomplete, whether or not he fully
          understands the problems - i don't make judgements on this, because
          it would be dis-ingenuous of me to pass judgement on Suzuki-sensei
          or anyone really.
          Jensen-sensei, i think, has well articulated and well understood the
          particular problem he addresses in his writing above, but is not
          solving the problem in implemented practice or himself really
          manifestly getting beyond the mindset that created the problems. i
          don't like his labelling of stone-age, and the images or constructs
          that go with it - writing-acting in favour of a present-day
          European image of the past in what is presently labelled 'stone-
          age', just like i don't like it when people re-act against the label
          of stone-age, and just like i don't like the often cynical writing
          re-acting against and negating about the label of the golden age.
          The only 'age' that is any 'age' is right now. Right now is the only
          now in which we can act. Thanks also to Jamie for previously re-
          iterating here on this subject in his reponse to the "The Ultimatum
          of God Nature...". The only chance for a golden age is right now,
          the every now, the everywhen now (as compared to the word
          everything). So, if not already, if and when we, each of us has a
          truelly happy moment, that moment, that now, is a golden age. To
          make the golden age moment more often and everywhen is a goal, i am
          aware.

          Only European people call people in different in concept/societies,
          time/history or space/places:
          'stone age' people,
          'hunter-gatherer' people,
          cultured/savage people,
          civilised/brutish people,
          primitive/modern people, etc.
          Even also using the label racists which i have used, is subject to
          this inherent hypocrisy for us all.
          I don't believe in any of these labels as they are discrimination,
          passings of judgement, they all end up being prejudice. I minimise
          using them, i don't pretend to be able to stop using them or act to
          restrict their use by different people from me, though. It can only
          be the intended meaning of the sentence behind the label in the
          particular context of their use that i read and listen to.
          Fukuoka-sensei and many Indigenous sensei of this continent here are
          both pointing at the same destination, both very clear about it, and
          both becoming and/or maintaining that which could be called the
          everpresent everpossible golden age of every moment, but it's ever
          transient and is maintained by ever becoming to that destination of
          the golden age. (very difficult to put to words for me at this
          moment - i hope you's all get what's meant)

          The word farming in english is an additional word with an original
          meaning that is very problematical also as it is about
          peasants/slaves working out in the field on self-appointed or
          brutally-acquired `aristocrats` `owned` land. A better dramatisation
          than Jensen's above clear articulation of this problem is in the
          film "BraveHeart".
          However, we explicitly are on a Fukuoka-Farming group, and the word
          farming in Japanese English has none of these problems originally or
          now, it is not from the english meaning but is from the meaning of
          the Japanese word "Nou" which means nothing more repressive than out
          in the field, so far as all the times i've looked it up in Japanese
          Kanji dictionaries etc. I would be happy with a group called Shizen
          Nouhou, but this title alone would be self-defeating because many
          english readers of fukuoka-sensei books would not find it or would
          look for farming, natural farming, fukouka, etc. Combinations of
          words for reforming the title of the group or a new group have
          crossed my mind several times, but it's more academic than most
          problems of the world when we can all understand with a bit of
          communication that the farming we are talking about is that defined
          by Fukuoka not that defined by the english language history of the
          word Farming.

          How can anyone writing on a computer in a building with electricity
          or wherever write meaningfully of returning to 'stone-age'- i should
          say, even, write of their image of the stone age as more sustainable
          etc., i agree with Jensen's identification of the empirical problems
          but not the interpretation of the empirical problems into a
          civilised vs. stone-age dichotomy, neither do i agree with the lack
          of here and now solutions. It is romantic or re-acting against
          romantic, both are the same in that they are dictated by
          romanticism, to image-ine a different situation as more sustainable,
          it is the ever present possibility of being/becoming personally
          sustainable right this moment that is real, not romantic, and which
          is The Golden Age we all have the oppotunity to inhabit. These are
          so simple choices every moment at a personal level. eg. i can choose
          to stop writing on this computer now, it is not difficult at all to
          choose sustainable interventions now. Also i can choose to continue
          writing to hope to effect a benefit to many people reading this,
          open more sustainability than just in my person and if that happens
          thereby effect more sustainability than i could ever by stopping
          writing. These choices are always a very fine line, that line
          actually doesn't exist except in words and thoughts, so i'm aware
          that i must exercise enormous ego-control - self-discipline or
          whatever one calls it in these choices.

          It is the integration of what Suzuki-sensei and Jensen-sensei say,
          in which lays some movement closer to a golden age of right this
          moment. It could be hoped that they could perhaps directly talk with
          each other. This would be fruitfull, even more so.

          A further, wise, very to the point, perceptive person Jean-claude or
          should i say wise family, on this group put it so well in a previous
          message 3190 (including that it was written in a beautifully
          sensuous to me french style of english and including that it was not
          so much english english conforming to pedantic word perfect rules,
          spelling & definitons, as rather very meaningful usage plain english
          words with the spontaneity of some harmless spelling misses). Thank
          you so much Jean-Claude, whatever you do keep up the free english,
          especially for your posts.
          3190 by Jean-claude in part:
          "Nature is in charge , trying to fix with the mind that created the
          problem in the first place is the last trap we want to avoid . it is
          not because we have packed the soil that we have to till , nature
          will do it on its own .
          we wanted to produce more easy foods, we got the results, lets focus
          on better nutrition and being less obssessed with yields and
          everything we fall in its place . what is the point of growing all
          those fancy monsters from the cabbage familly when kale as a more
          primitive form is fullfulling all the jobs with better nutrition (
          you can eat the stems, the flowers, the buds, the leaves etc....
          they don't need to be obese to be abondant."

          Also to Jamie around this 3190 time in this group. To address from
          those posts one of Jamie's well communicated, in 3196, reservations
          about my explanation of the problems, where he said: "In my
          situating of NF as amelioration and not goal I hoped to express just
          this transience, this inability of totalising explanations: it is
          what concerns me about Jason's ruthless exposure of western
          domination and jean-claude's dietry regimen" that he was concerned
          that mine & Jean-claude's explanations are not totalising
          explanation. First, I agree, mine and they are nor totalising.
          Second, however, i made it very clear in my first posts to this
          group that all human's explanations, and awarenesses generally, are
          partial. i said and say this with joy not sadness, for one it is
          true, for two it is obvious, and for three it is, i'm aware, the
          reason we have for wanting to live, ie. that we all always have room
          for improving ourselves, both internally and in our effect
          externally on the everyone, and in our overcoming the difference
          between the internal and the external, by integrating it into shared
          consciousnesses. To everyone else this is a very rewarding part of
          the archive from my experience participating also here at that time:
          eg. see ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/3190 )
          and it's thread.

          Have any of you read Fukuoka-sensei referring to himself as a
          pantheist or even a panentheist or as an anarchist?

          I don't recall reading anywhere Fukuoka-sensei calling himself any
          of these things, even the chapter section in "The Ultimatum of God
          Nature..." about Agnosticism is an invention of the translator,
          because i went hunting for the Japanese word for Agnostic in my
          Japanese edition chapter and it is a vaguely similar sentence
          subject that Fukuoka-sensei talks about there, in the exactly the
          same paragraphs and subjects but there is no word agnostic in the
          Japanese. Of course correct me if i'm wrong on this point of record
          please. In the Japanese edition, the really philosophical section
          near the end, Fukuoka-sensei writes about the philosophy of Mu and
          shizen nouhou (spontaneous/nature farming - he Law/rules/methods as
          in translation the same english usage by Oz indigenous peoples of
          the Law for words such as Tjukurpa, Alcheringa -more like saying the
          law of the land, the rules of living, and the way of life) "(Mu) no
          tetsu gaku to shizen nou hou".

          shizen
          see (
          http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~ssb/access?Au=http%3A\
          %2F%2Fguest@...%2Fcgi-bin%2Fxpr-ddb.pl%3F81.xml%2Bid%28\
          %27b81ea-7136%27%29
          )

          Fukuoka-sensei then starts writing with the kanji word Mu.i

          see by pasting and searching for –³ˆ×

          also see (using the buddhist and earlier kanji read as 'i')(
          http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~ssb/access?Au=http%3A\
          %2F%2Fguest@...%2Fcgi-bin%2Fxpr-ddb.pl%3F71.xml%2Bid%28\
          %27b7121-7232%27%29
          )

          Cheers Adam, Thanks,

          Beauty mates,
          Jason
        • animaphile
          Whoops, sooorry! making some corrections - i don t have any computer myself working at home or electricity in the house at present (because of old batteries on
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
          • 0 Attachment
            Whoops, sooorry! making some corrections - i don't have any computer
            myself working at home or electricity in the house at present
            (because of old batteries on my solar electricity), so i don't have
            much free time on computer at my neighbours and rush sometimes, that
            should be

            `eg. see
            ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/message/3190 )
            and its associated threads`

            `In the Japanese edition, the really philosophical section
            near the end, Fukuoka-sensei writes about the philosophy of Mu and
            shizen nouhou (meaning spontaneous/nature farming - the
            Law/rules/methods, as,
            in translation, the same english usage by Oz indigenous peoples of
            "the Law" for words such as Tjukurpa, Alcheringa -more like saying
            the law of the land, the rules of living, and the way of life)
            "(Mu) no tetsu gaku to shizen nou hou".`

            and also i neglected to say Adam that not only do i agree with
            Jensen-sensei words, but with yours also, even though by this i mean
            the intention i percieve of both of your words rather than
            necessarily the particularities of the wording.

            Thanks again, great discussion Adam & Jean-claude

            Konban wa (Good evening in Japanese),

            Jason
          • Adam Carter
            Hi Jason, I appreciate your detailed response. Just a couple of things I d like to elaborate on. If one perceives that the foundations of civilisation are
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Jason,

              I appreciate your detailed response.

              Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives that
              the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount of 'reform'
              is going to make a difference in the long run. There are increasing
              numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These people have not
              given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not confined to a
              civilised outlook.

              Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed in
              many different directions. Towards creating alternative means of
              subsistence and learning primitive skills. Towards defending remaining
              wild places. Towards undermining civilisation itself. Towards
              supporting surviving indigenous life ways.

              I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen (especially 'A
              Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
              Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in recovery
              from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel Quinn
              ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques of
              civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out for
              'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies' by
              Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive analysis of the
              coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of the 'sustainable'
              alternatives.

              You wondered at how someone using electricity can write meaningfully
              about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have to wonder what
              it was like 10,000 years ago. Less than 250 years ago the entire
              continent that you and I live on was living quite happily and
              sustainably with stone tools.

              Cheers,

              Adam.

              PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs book,
              I've ordered it today.
            • animaphile
              ... Thanks. You ve come from Melbourne recently. I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life, participating in nature there, learn t all species of
              Message 6 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
              • 0 Attachment
                --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                wrote:
                > Hi Jason,

                > I appreciate your detailed response.

                Thanks.
                You've come from Melbourne recently.
                I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life,
                participating in nature there, learn't all species of plants, both
                indig and introduced, 1500+, 600+ indig sp., most animals... great
                place for me, but i'm not a sympathiser of some people i know there
                who talk about overthrowing the city culture, i'm not a greeny-nazi,
                i couldn't and wouldn't want to destroy the people who live there or
                force them in any way, this would be so counter to compassion and to
                bringing up & out the good nature that is the underlying base of
                human nature. Even though the destruction of non-human nature there
                that i love all my life is/was so severe and pernicious. My
                experiences there were heartbreaking, many times many bushlands were
                needlessly and/or wantonly harmed in a sado-masochistic or merchant
                of death dealing way. Still good bush aswell and regeneration going
                too.

                > Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives
                that the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount
                of 'reform' is going to make a difference in the long run. There are
                increasing numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These
                people have not given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not
                confined to a civilised outlook.

                I agree with the intention or sentiment but the wording
                of 'foundations of civilisation are rotten' is rotten if anything
                is, if throwing out this word then really you need to change
                languages and throw out the english language also. Do you speak a
                different language from English? Japanese and Indig' languages of
                this continent are liberating examples, would you learn a Palawa
                language perhaps?
                What have you learn't about Indigenous people's of this continent so
                far, as from your posts you imply that you are an originally non-
                indig' person, hope i'm not wrong in this reading of your posts.
                Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre/Corporation is very worthwhile.

                > Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed
                in many different directions.

                Yeah!

                > Towards creating alternative means of subsistence and learning
                primitive skills.

                There's nothing primitive about primitives - know wha' a mean?
                I don't believe in alternatives or mainstreams, primitive or modern
                they both define themselves by what they are opposed to or what they
                are supposed not to be. Bring on at once becoming Eternal and MU!

                >Towards defending remaining wild places.
                Yeah!
                Regenerating is better again and doesn't sow the seed of its own
                conflict as defensiveness does.
                >Towards undermining civilisation itself.

                No need to undermine civilisation, just build a real one rather than
                pretend, false one, eg. Indigenous civilisations, peoples, societies
                of this continent. Jamie & Gloria's one's for Europe. etc.

                > Towards supporting surviving indigenous life ways.

                Yeah!
                Sorry to be feeling like an editor of your wording, i don't really
                presume to be an editor, rather it is continuing my detailed
                response, because i am absolutely convinced that there is no benefit
                in taking sides for anyone, you, me, or George W. Bush, Saddam, the
                spooks in the intelligence agencies or even Satan.

                > I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen
                (especially 'A Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
                Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in
                recovery from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel
                Quinn ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques
                of civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out
                for 'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial
                Societies' by Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive
                analysis of the coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of
                the 'sustainable' alternatives.

                Thanks it's the thought of yours that counts, i actually just had a
                thorough read of all the write-ups of books on his website, and
                after my own personal upbringing experiences i can say that i'm
                beyond the life-phase of dealing with my parental families problems.
                I've received alot of heart from indig' people's and different
                people's including takusan Nihonjin (many japanese people) and
                shared alot too, that has taken me beyond civilisation vs.
                primitive, western vs. eastern, white vs. black, asian vs. european,
                christian vs. 'other' than christian, eastern or japanese or
                aboriginal christian vs. western christian, secular vs. non-secular,
                materialistic vs. spiritual, man vs. woman, history vs. herstory,
                linear thinking vs. lateral thinking vs. multidimensional thinking,
                left brain vs. right brain, deep vs. shallow ecology (i've read
                literally a 1000 or more ecology science papers, not incl. books
                versus hundreds of (so called) deep ecology literatures, not to
                mention dialogues with people, etc.), greeny vs. browny vs. redneck,
                the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
                dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
                i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
                root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
                consider jean-claude), technocracy vs. luddism (technology was and
                is never the issue, people are the issue and their societies and
                choices made by people & societies about technology ie. attachment
                to for or against technology), paleao (lithic) vs. neo (lithic)
                (words mean literally old vs. new rocks - old stones vs. new
                stones), good vs. bad, attached-to-science vs. against-science vs.
                sucker-for-psuedo-science (all still dictated in mode of thinking by
                science, whether for or against or hoodwinked by), etc.
                There is an important section in Fukuoka's "Ultimatum of God
                Nature..." ("KAMI TO SHIZEN TO HITO NO KAKUMEI...") where he
                describes and discusses "Men who kill God", it is especially
                important for us men who have come from societies that have been
                dominated by nature destructive ideologies. The use of the word
                civilisation can be a very good meaning, furthermore it can be
                reclaimed by secure type people away from any destructive meanings
                to mean humane, civil, a citizen of God Nature, etc. There no reason
                to be a word-fashion-victim for Jensen or anyone, we make the
                language, not at the mercy of it, as we make the future every
                present moment! Does any of the writing above directly address
                Hawkins & Lovins "Natural Capitalism" i like to extract the
                happening empirical info out of that publ., it is spontaneous, up to
                date-ish more than most and edifying. I don't like it when anyone
                diminishes faith in human nature or any nature, there's nothing
                wrong with nature, there is some things wrong with some stuff in
                some poeple's heads not the least of which is us brought up in
                materialist, secular-christian, stratified, babylon-system...
                societies. But it is all only `in people's heads`. To paraphrase Tim
                Peters, if your yardstick or guidebook of life be wrong or you ask
                the wrong question then you have f..k all hope of getting the right
                answer or any answer. Bring on MU!

                > You wondered at how someone using electricity can write
                meaningfully about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have
                to wonder what it was like 10,000 years ago.

                I'd like you to explore that inconsitency some more that i
                mentioned, about myself and us, and whoever.

                >Less than 250 years ago the entire continent that you and I live on
                was living quite happily and sustainably with stone tools.

                Yes!
                But it wasn't BECAUSE of stone tools that they were/are happy or
                sustainable 250 years ago or today, that is the very materialistic
                (european if we like that word for a convention of assumed meaning)
                obsession with materials and technological determinisms, and also
                archaeologies largely dependence upon material artefacts, and
                whitefellah's societies, up till recently at least, reliance on
                archaeology as their abriter of truth about indigenous peoples of
                this continent. When really archaeology can only be misleading
                compared to simply directly asking to teach their civilisation
                & 'culture' & customs & spirituality. To emphasise indig' peoples of
                this continents' pre-eminence in religion/spirituality, society,
                kinship and social systems more than just & in addition to their
                tool technologies is more in keeping with what apparently makes my
                indig' friends today happy about themselves, and more about the
                strengths of their societies and cultures in being sustainable.

                Have you read David Horton's book "The Pure State of Nature" it is
                better than nothing, but like everything partial. He's an
                archaeologist, sheep farmer and was editor of the Encyclopedia of
                Aboriginal Australia. He debunks many of the lies & underestimations
                by whitefellahs about Indig' peoples of this continent, but then
                introduces a few underestimations of his own, ie. he debunks
                different whitefella's partialities and then projects his own
                partialities from the specialisation of archaeology and especially
                simplistic underestimations about indig' farming (Fukuoka-defined
                farming) which is understandable & expectable given his emotional
                investment in his own sheep farm. I've read the anthropology paper,
                and many more of them, (Haynes & Chase, "Plant sites and
                domiculture") that he criticises about Oz Indig' farming in Cape
                York, and it is so obvious that they planted seeds there for food
                plants that for Horton to refuse to accept this is an absurd, even
                racist in a partial about-farming-or-horticulture-way,
                underestimating of Indig' people's of this continent. Even my local
                community indig friends have told me 'on the quiet' that
                transporting & planting native seeds for food is natural thing for
                them, their ancestors and their particular customs of their S.E. Oz
                culture.

                Nonetheless, while being wary of it limitations, it is a very
                worthwhile, important reading for the world to read about Oz. It is
                a good book to give to all those neighbours who you said thought or
                called you mad in what you're doing on farm. This is exactly what
                i've done here with success in gaining mutual understanding with my
                neighbours and their & my mutual joy. No madness accussations. It is
                even available as an Adobe ebook (ebooks.com) for US$7.95, normally
                AUD$30+ on paper.

                I'd also suggest for reading as first suggestions from me: Larissa
                Behrendt "Aboriginal Dispute Resolution". An Indig' young woman from
                SE Oz, a highly qualified lawyer, spokesperson on TV, etc. I've
                learn't profound lessons on how to live my own whitefellah life
                better from Larissa Behrendt, as she reccommends in that book. Did
                you read some of my earlier quotes and links about indig peoples,
                such as Eve Fesl's book "Conned" that i quoted the intro from.
                And "Ancestor Spirits", and Koorie Plants Koorie People, this would
                be a No. 1 book for you to get, in my humble opinion

                There are many native nitrogen fixers that would be the equal of
                clover in Oz, not that clover is bad in Oz, it is fairly harmless,
                not much weedy, but that can't be said for the changes it makes in
                the micro-organisms in Oz particularly, because we have our own
                unique sets of Oz micro-organisms with our plant species, to be
                clear it is not an either or choice though, just be careful and wary
                with clover - soil - micro-organisms in Oz, and as Fukuoka advises
                don't do anything at all that's unneccessary. She-oaks (Casuarina &
                Allocasuarina) are nitrogen fixers also to legumes and wattles.
                Murnong root vegetable grows in Tassie. It may be a threatened
                species like the Camas root vegetable in Canada that Stephen Inniss
                mentioned many moons ago as threatened and depleted around his
                town, - the solution rather than just the problem identification
                with this is to get in good terms with the Botanists, Jamie
                Kirkpatrick is a great one is Tassie, and help to grow this murnong
                on your place as an re-dispersal and regeneration of its former
                range if it is at all possible to grow on your place. Very good
                taste root raw or cooked. Could be a double good one for you Adam.
                Desmodium are one of many native legume genera around in Oz.

                > Cheers,

                > Adam.
                >
                > PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs
                book, I've ordered it today.

                Great!

                See Ya, Jyaa-ne
                Jason
              • Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude Catry
                ... I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money as a source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means to satisfy needs . it
                Message 7 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
                • 0 Attachment
                  > the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
                  > dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
                  > i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
                  > root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
                  > consider jean-claude),


                  I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money as a
                  source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means to satisfy
                  needs .
                  it is like trying to hit a nail with a rake or some other inapropriate
                  tool.( like a plow to aerate the soil )
                  IT is not question of being attached or not to any quantity of it but it is
                  about removing peoples from the direct experience that occur in the
                  circulation of energy.
                  That is what is wrong with this concept of trying to symbolise, quantify
                  circulation of energy ..
                  it is like replacing by words the direct experience of observing something .

                  Also and on top of that Nowhere in nature there is this idea <i give you
                  that if you give me this > or any idea of storing beyond needs in case ...

                  at last there is , even more so , the artificial regulation of the
                  circulation of energy symbolised by money organised by the banking and
                  financial system .That is nothing less that a very brutal way of depriving
                  peoples from the possibility of satisfying their needs in a direct , real
                  way ...
                  jean-claude
                • Adam Carter
                  Hi Jason, Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we seem to have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it is probably best
                  Message 8 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Jason,

                    Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we seem to
                    have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it is
                    probably best we leave this thread for now. Otherwise we could be
                    spending the rest of our lives going backward and forwards on this one
                    :-)

                    For the record, my wife is aboriginal. Although I'll also add that my
                    perspectives we're formed independently of that fact.

                    Like you, I have been on a long journey to arrive at where I am now.
                    While we have arrived at different destinations, there is still much we
                    have in common.

                    Towards a better world,

                    Adam.
                  • animaphile
                    Thanks so much fellahs for the energy of your writings, I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments, Jean-claude, i agree with your oh so clear articulation of
                    Message 9 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Thanks so much fellahs for the energy of your writings,
                      I wholeheartedly agree with your sentiments,
                      Jean-claude, i agree with your oh so clear articulation of the
                      corrupting limitation of money as a system of exchange (have i got
                      this description right jean-claude?), my sentiment overlaps in
                      meaning with that but is not identical with it. I don't care about
                      money as something to be for or as something to fight against, i
                      think fighting this would waste my energy, not that you, jean-claude
                      are necessarily fighting against it when you're writing accurately
                      descriptive and explanatory words. Paper/Plastic money, is just
                      paper to me, it just represents something that it could be but is as
                      useful on its own as a bit of bark of a tree. Metal money, is just a
                      lump of metal to me,it just represents something that it could be
                      but is as useful on its own as a sinker for fishing line. It's the
                      concept of money in some (so many) people's heads that Jean-claude
                      describes so well that i reject.
                      Adam,
                      Thanks, my reading of Fukuoka-sensei books and so on, emphasises to
                      me that we are not of topic at all here, according to the way
                      Fukuoka himself and Stephen Canner define Fukuoka_Farming. It is
                      quite fruitful what you & Jean-claude are talking about, - reading
                      of 4 English translation books and one Japanese book. See the
                      following messages in the archive for listings of books everyone
                      (from my offline archive) "Michiyo & Kyle's booklist FF msg no's:
                      1019 1286 2325 2338 & even more important related 2374 2384 2385
                      2386 2389 2876" & ( http://www.infomadonna.ne.jp/~ham/book.htm ). So
                      don't worry about being off topic with this thread, please continue
                      with this thread if you want to, tiredness and not being outside in
                      the field is a different topic and from that we are maybe off the
                      topic of not being out in our fields. Your a lucky man with your
                      wife and place in Tassie. I'll contact you by email with
                      `Aboriginal` intellectual nature information property links which i
                      have a little incumbancy to privately return to respective people,
                      and to share more personal dialogue that i don't make public with
                      unknown strangers.

                      Great communications,
                      Arigato gozaimasu,
                      Jason


                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                      Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                      >
                      [animaphile - jason - wrote]
                      > > the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money
                      (both dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to
                      money, i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money
                      is the root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls
                      at least consider jean-claude),
                      >
                      >
                      > I am not talking about the attachement or non attachment to money
                      as a source of a problem but money itself as an inapropriate means
                      to satisfy needs .
                      > it is like trying to hit a nail with a rake or some other
                      inapropriate tool.( like a plow to aerate the soil )
                      > IT is not question of being attached or not to any quantity of it
                      but it is about removing peoples from the direct experience that
                      occur in the circulation of energy.
                      > That is what is wrong with this concept of trying to symbolise,
                      quantify circulation of energy ..
                      > it is like replacing by words the direct experience of observing
                      something .
                      >
                      > Also and on top of that Nowhere in nature there is this idea <i
                      give you that if you give me this > or any idea of storing beyond
                      needs in case ...
                      >
                      > at last there is , even more so , the artificial regulation of the
                      circulation of energy symbolised by money organised by the banking
                      and financial system .That is nothing less that a very brutal way of
                      depriving peoples from the possibility of satisfying their needs in
                      a direct , real way ...
                      > jean-claude

                      --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                      wrote:
                      > Hi Jason,
                      >
                      > Thanks for the time you have taken on this subject. However we
                      seem to have gone far off topic from this mailing list so I think it
                      is probably best we leave this thread for now. Otherwise we could be
                      spending the rest of our lives going backward and forwards on this
                      one :-)
                      >
                      > For the record, my wife is aboriginal. Although I'll also add that
                      my perspectives we're formed independently of that fact.
                      >
                      > Like you, I have been on a long journey to arrive at where I am
                      now.
                      > While we have arrived at different destinations, there is still
                      much we have in common.
                      >
                      > Towards a better world,
                      >
                      > Adam.
                    • animaphile
                      ... people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be sustainable indefinitely a culture must not take more from its environment than it returns.
                      Message 10 of 13 , Feb 7, 2004
                      • 0 Attachment
                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Ingrid Bauer/Jean-Claude
                        Catry" <instinct@s...> wrote:
                        >
                        > [quoted Adam Carter wrote:]
                        > > Hi Jason,
                        > >
                        > > In my opinion this is simply more false hope that distracts
                        people from the reality (and urgency) of the situation. To be
                        sustainable indefinitely a culture must not take more from its
                        environment than it returns. Stone age technology is sustainable,
                        anything beyond that is not sustainable. Sure, there are ways and
                        means to be more sustainable than we are now but that is not the
                        same as being sustainable.
                        > >
                        > > Please have a read of a small article by Derrick Jensen that
                        sums it up quite nicely, http://www.derrickjensen.org/ga.html
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > i am also thinking that way , and am ready myself to do the move
                        toward this level of sustainiblity.... but not alone .

                        Yes! Yes!, for me not alone -even not just one family alone, is such
                        a neccessary point. Only as a society can it - practice, in my
                        perception actually become sustainable (sustainable meaning that it
                        continues to occur aswell as meaning that it continues not to do any
                        unsustainable practices), it is necessary to make personal decisions
                        to be sustainable all the time through one's life, but to continue
                        personally one needs a conducive society aswell in the long/medium
                        term of many decades. So many people have done it individually or
                        personally in adverse societies but have become burn't out, i feel
                        real compassion and concern for them doing it alone, so i think and
                        i myself partly successfully practice influencing my communities in
                        East Gippsland, Melbourne & Sydney to be more informed and
                        sympathetic and practice themselves sustainability of the kind that
                        Fukuoka points so clearly to. Not preaching is what i really try
                        hard to do, even though communicating in a firm tone with my
                        communities, i realise that often many of these people got their
                        ideas that maintain their unsustainabilty from what they've read and
                        heard in the media, so i often provide debunking media, books and
                        radio and TV and newspapers to them, i have succeeded in some
                        spinning-back the spin-out ideas of how to use human-ignited fire
                        here and some reduction of peoples cultural cringe towards
                        indigenous people's foods (called bush tucker or bushfood). It's not
                        easy but is incidently socially very rewarding. Some seriously
                        unsustainable people are very friendly toward me.


                        > yet david suzuki goals that are more geared toward reducing
                        drastically pollutions than sustainibility is really achievable in
                        principal but one main obstacle is the artificiality of money
                        economy orchestrated by banks and other wall street type of wealth
                        maker that in no way represent the real exchange of energies ...

                        i agree so true.

                        > little farmers knows that ,they don't have a chance to be
                        recognised for their performances into making more out of less.

                        i agree so very true.

                        > considering that the sun is constantly bombarding the earth , it is
                        > completelly possible to produce more energy than is used up (
                        creation is there to prove it )in opposition with other forms of
                        farming that require more or less a deficit between what is produced
                        and and what is spent.( mechanical ,chemical , monocultured and
                        centralised agriculture being the worst .)

                        i agree, good ?new insight for records on group.

                        > David suzuki is a yuppi confortable kind of guy who are not
                        willing to go to stone age technology even if it is what it takes
                        to be really sustainable ( too bad he miss the opportunity to knows
                        the comfort that comes from being willing to risk uncomfort ....

                        so great a point, thank you

                        > jean-claude

                        Arigato,
                        Jason
                      • Gerald Whitehawk
                        Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the other. That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have more than need.
                        Message 11 of 13 , Feb 10, 2004
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the other.
                          That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have more than
                          need. When non-natural wishes fall, money non-useful. Earth beautiful
                          again. Too much in your heads, not-natural.

                          Use wise words of other people� but use them wisely? You have to go look
                          for your hearts in yourself, first. Natural?: eat, drink, piss, sleep� just
                          enough for natural necessities. Can you be happy with that? If not need
                          money, destroy Earth! The point of natural life, the perfection of spirit -
                          loosing ego.


                          >From: "animaphile" <animaphile@...>
                          >Reply-To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          >To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                          >Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Environmental sustainability possible within
                          >a generation???
                          >Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 12:45:19 -0000
                          >
                          >--- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                          >wrote:
                          > > Hi Jason,
                          >
                          > > I appreciate your detailed response.
                          >
                          >Thanks.
                          >You've come from Melbourne recently.
                          >I grew up in SE of Melbourne, did years of, all my life,
                          >participating in nature there, learn't all species of plants, both
                          >indig and introduced, 1500+, 600+ indig sp., most animals... great
                          >place for me, but i'm not a sympathiser of some people i know there
                          >who talk about overthrowing the city culture, i'm not a greeny-nazi,
                          >i couldn't and wouldn't want to destroy the people who live there or
                          >force them in any way, this would be so counter to compassion and to
                          >bringing up & out the good nature that is the underlying base of
                          >human nature. Even though the destruction of non-human nature there
                          >that i love all my life is/was so severe and pernicious. My
                          >experiences there were heartbreaking, many times many bushlands were
                          >needlessly and/or wantonly harmed in a sado-masochistic or merchant
                          >of death dealing way. Still good bush aswell and regeneration going
                          >too.
                          >
                          > > Just a couple of things I'd like to elaborate on. If one perceives
                          >that the foundations of civilisation are rotten, then no amount
                          >of 'reform' is going to make a difference in the long run. There are
                          >increasing numbers of people who hold such perspectives. These
                          >people have not given up hope, it is just that their hopes are not
                          >confined to a civilised outlook.
                          >
                          >I agree with the intention or sentiment but the wording
                          >of 'foundations of civilisation are rotten' is rotten if anything
                          >is, if throwing out this word then really you need to change
                          >languages and throw out the english language also. Do you speak a
                          >different language from English? Japanese and Indig' languages of
                          >this continent are liberating examples, would you learn a Palawa
                          >language perhaps?
                          >What have you learn't about Indigenous people's of this continent so
                          >far, as from your posts you imply that you are an originally non-
                          >indig' person, hope i'm not wrong in this reading of your posts.
                          >Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre/Corporation is very worthwhile.
                          >
                          > > Instead of being directed at reform, their energies are directed
                          >in many different directions.
                          >
                          >Yeah!
                          >
                          > > Towards creating alternative means of subsistence and learning
                          >primitive skills.
                          >
                          >There's nothing primitive about primitives - know wha' a mean?
                          >I don't believe in alternatives or mainstreams, primitive or modern
                          >they both define themselves by what they are opposed to or what they
                          >are supposed not to be. Bring on at once becoming Eternal and MU!
                          >
                          > >Towards defending remaining wild places.
                          >Yeah!
                          >Regenerating is better again and doesn't sow the seed of its own
                          >conflict as defensiveness does.
                          > >Towards undermining civilisation itself.
                          >
                          >No need to undermine civilisation, just build a real one rather than
                          >pretend, false one, eg. Indigenous civilisations, peoples, societies
                          >of this continent. Jamie & Gloria's one's for Europe. etc.
                          >
                          > > Towards supporting surviving indigenous life ways.
                          >
                          >Yeah!
                          >Sorry to be feeling like an editor of your wording, i don't really
                          >presume to be an editor, rather it is continuing my detailed
                          >response, because i am absolutely convinced that there is no benefit
                          >in taking sides for anyone, you, me, or George W. Bush, Saddam, the
                          >spooks in the intelligence agencies or even Satan.
                          >
                          > > I can strongly recommend the books by Derrick Jensen
                          >(especially 'A Language Older than Words' and 'Culture of Make
                          >Believe'), Chellis Glendinning ('My name is Chellis and I'm in
                          >recovery from Western Civilisation' and 'Off the Map') and Daniel
                          >Quinn ('Ishmael') to name a few of the growing number of critiques
                          >of civilisation itself. While I'm on the subject of books, look out
                          >for 'The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial
                          >Societies' by Richard Heinberg not only does this give comprehensive
                          >analysis of the coming end of oil but it also debunks the myths of
                          >the 'sustainable' alternatives.
                          >
                          >Thanks it's the thought of yours that counts, i actually just had a
                          >thorough read of all the write-ups of books on his website, and
                          >after my own personal upbringing experiences i can say that i'm
                          >beyond the life-phase of dealing with my parental families problems.
                          >I've received alot of heart from indig' people's and different
                          >people's including takusan Nihonjin (many japanese people) and
                          >shared alot too, that has taken me beyond civilisation vs.
                          >primitive, western vs. eastern, white vs. black, asian vs. european,
                          >christian vs. 'other' than christian, eastern or japanese or
                          >aboriginal christian vs. western christian, secular vs. non-secular,
                          >materialistic vs. spiritual, man vs. woman, history vs. herstory,
                          >linear thinking vs. lateral thinking vs. multidimensional thinking,
                          >left brain vs. right brain, deep vs. shallow ecology (i've read
                          >literally a 1000 or more ecology science papers, not incl. books
                          >versus hundreds of (so called) deep ecology literatures, not to
                          >mention dialogues with people, etc.), greeny vs. browny vs. redneck,
                          >the attachment to money vs. the attachment to not having money (both
                          >dictated by the action for or reaction against attachment to money,
                          >i do go the bible on this "The love of(attachment to) money is the
                          >root of all evil" not 'money is the root of all evil' - pls at least
                          >consider jean-claude), technocracy vs. luddism (technology was and
                          >is never the issue, people are the issue and their societies and
                          >choices made by people & societies about technology ie. attachment
                          >to for or against technology), paleao (lithic) vs. neo (lithic)
                          >(words mean literally old vs. new rocks - old stones vs. new
                          >stones), good vs. bad, attached-to-science vs. against-science vs.
                          >sucker-for-psuedo-science (all still dictated in mode of thinking by
                          >science, whether for or against or hoodwinked by), etc.
                          >There is an important section in Fukuoka's "Ultimatum of God
                          >Nature..." ("KAMI TO SHIZEN TO HITO NO KAKUMEI...") where he
                          >describes and discusses "Men who kill God", it is especially
                          >important for us men who have come from societies that have been
                          >dominated by nature destructive ideologies. The use of the word
                          >civilisation can be a very good meaning, furthermore it can be
                          >reclaimed by secure type people away from any destructive meanings
                          >to mean humane, civil, a citizen of God Nature, etc. There no reason
                          >to be a word-fashion-victim for Jensen or anyone, we make the
                          >language, not at the mercy of it, as we make the future every
                          >present moment! Does any of the writing above directly address
                          >Hawkins & Lovins "Natural Capitalism" i like to extract the
                          >happening empirical info out of that publ., it is spontaneous, up to
                          >date-ish more than most and edifying. I don't like it when anyone
                          >diminishes faith in human nature or any nature, there's nothing
                          >wrong with nature, there is some things wrong with some stuff in
                          >some poeple's heads not the least of which is us brought up in
                          >materialist, secular-christian, stratified, babylon-system...
                          >societies. But it is all only `in people's heads`. To paraphrase Tim
                          >Peters, if your yardstick or guidebook of life be wrong or you ask
                          >the wrong question then you have f..k all hope of getting the right
                          >answer or any answer. Bring on MU!
                          >
                          > > You wondered at how someone using electricity can write
                          >meaningfully about returning to the 'stone age', but we do not have
                          >to wonder what it was like 10,000 years ago.
                          >
                          >I'd like you to explore that inconsitency some more that i
                          >mentioned, about myself and us, and whoever.
                          >
                          > >Less than 250 years ago the entire continent that you and I live on
                          >was living quite happily and sustainably with stone tools.
                          >
                          >Yes!
                          >But it wasn't BECAUSE of stone tools that they were/are happy or
                          >sustainable 250 years ago or today, that is the very materialistic
                          >(european if we like that word for a convention of assumed meaning)
                          >obsession with materials and technological determinisms, and also
                          >archaeologies largely dependence upon material artefacts, and
                          >whitefellah's societies, up till recently at least, reliance on
                          >archaeology as their abriter of truth about indigenous peoples of
                          >this continent. When really archaeology can only be misleading
                          >compared to simply directly asking to teach their civilisation
                          >& 'culture' & customs & spirituality. To emphasise indig' peoples of
                          >this continents' pre-eminence in religion/spirituality, society,
                          >kinship and social systems more than just & in addition to their
                          >tool technologies is more in keeping with what apparently makes my
                          >indig' friends today happy about themselves, and more about the
                          >strengths of their societies and cultures in being sustainable.
                          >
                          >Have you read David Horton's book "The Pure State of Nature" it is
                          >better than nothing, but like everything partial. He's an
                          >archaeologist, sheep farmer and was editor of the Encyclopedia of
                          >Aboriginal Australia. He debunks many of the lies & underestimations
                          >by whitefellahs about Indig' peoples of this continent, but then
                          >introduces a few underestimations of his own, ie. he debunks
                          >different whitefella's partialities and then projects his own
                          >partialities from the specialisation of archaeology and especially
                          >simplistic underestimations about indig' farming (Fukuoka-defined
                          >farming) which is understandable & expectable given his emotional
                          >investment in his own sheep farm. I've read the anthropology paper,
                          >and many more of them, (Haynes & Chase, "Plant sites and
                          >domiculture") that he criticises about Oz Indig' farming in Cape
                          >York, and it is so obvious that they planted seeds there for food
                          >plants that for Horton to refuse to accept this is an absurd, even
                          >racist in a partial about-farming-or-horticulture-way,
                          >underestimating of Indig' people's of this continent. Even my local
                          >community indig friends have told me 'on the quiet' that
                          >transporting & planting native seeds for food is natural thing for
                          >them, their ancestors and their particular customs of their S.E. Oz
                          >culture.
                          >
                          >Nonetheless, while being wary of it limitations, it is a very
                          >worthwhile, important reading for the world to read about Oz. It is
                          >a good book to give to all those neighbours who you said thought or
                          >called you mad in what you're doing on farm. This is exactly what
                          >i've done here with success in gaining mutual understanding with my
                          >neighbours and their & my mutual joy. No madness accussations. It is
                          >even available as an Adobe ebook (ebooks.com) for US$7.95, normally
                          >AUD$30+ on paper.
                          >
                          >I'd also suggest for reading as first suggestions from me: Larissa
                          >Behrendt "Aboriginal Dispute Resolution". An Indig' young woman from
                          >SE Oz, a highly qualified lawyer, spokesperson on TV, etc. I've
                          >learn't profound lessons on how to live my own whitefellah life
                          >better from Larissa Behrendt, as she reccommends in that book. Did
                          >you read some of my earlier quotes and links about indig peoples,
                          >such as Eve Fesl's book "Conned" that i quoted the intro from.
                          >And "Ancestor Spirits", and Koorie Plants Koorie People, this would
                          >be a No. 1 book for you to get, in my humble opinion
                          >
                          >There are many native nitrogen fixers that would be the equal of
                          >clover in Oz, not that clover is bad in Oz, it is fairly harmless,
                          >not much weedy, but that can't be said for the changes it makes in
                          >the micro-organisms in Oz particularly, because we have our own
                          >unique sets of Oz micro-organisms with our plant species, to be
                          >clear it is not an either or choice though, just be careful and wary
                          >with clover - soil - micro-organisms in Oz, and as Fukuoka advises
                          >don't do anything at all that's unneccessary. She-oaks (Casuarina &
                          >Allocasuarina) are nitrogen fixers also to legumes and wattles.
                          >Murnong root vegetable grows in Tassie. It may be a threatened
                          >species like the Camas root vegetable in Canada that Stephen Inniss
                          >mentioned many moons ago as threatened and depleted around his
                          >town, - the solution rather than just the problem identification
                          >with this is to get in good terms with the Botanists, Jamie
                          >Kirkpatrick is a great one is Tassie, and help to grow this murnong
                          >on your place as an re-dispersal and regeneration of its former
                          >range if it is at all possible to grow on your place. Very good
                          >taste root raw or cooked. Could be a double good one for you Adam.
                          >Desmodium are one of many native legume genera around in Oz.
                          >
                          > > Cheers,
                          >
                          > > Adam.
                          > >
                          > > PS. Jason, thanks for the recommendation of Tim Low's Wild Herbs
                          >book, I've ordered it today.
                          >
                          >Great!
                          >
                          >See Ya, Jyaa-ne
                          >Jason
                          >

                          _________________________________________________________________
                          Choose now from 4 levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - no more account
                          overload! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
                        • macropneuma
                          ... other. ... more than ... beautiful ... go look ... sleep… just ... not need ... of spirit - ... Thankyou Beauty mate (Australian English similar to thank
                          Message 12 of 13 , Feb 10, 2004
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "Gerald Whitehawk"
                            <gwhitehawk@h...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Why you all fight, when all want same thing -- be bigger than the
                            other.
                            > That not-natural. Money, only expression non-natural want to have
                            more than
                            > need. When non-natural wishes fall, money non-useful. Earth
                            beautiful
                            > again. Too much in your heads, not-natural.
                            >
                            > Use wise words of other people… but use them wisely? You have to
                            go look
                            > for your hearts in yourself, first. Natural?: eat, drink, piss,
                            sleep… just
                            > enough for natural necessities. Can you be happy with that? If
                            not need
                            > money, destroy Earth! The point of natural life, the perfection
                            of spirit -
                            > loosing ego.


                            Thankyou
                            Beauty mate (Australian English similar to thank you)
                            Arigato gozaimasu (Japanese thank you)
                            I Agree including for myself.

                            Jason
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.