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Fukuoka's "Ultimatum" Part One of a Serial Commentary

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  • Robert Monie
    Hi Everybody, Since only a few of us were lucky to get copies of this book (from Michiyo in Japan), I think is appropriate for us to summarize and comment on
    Message 1 of 16 , Dec 18, 2003
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      Hi Everybody,

      Since only a few of us were lucky to get copies of this book (from Michiyo in Japan), I think is appropriate for us to summarize and comment on the text so other list subscribers will know (even if through our distorting lens) what Fukuoka is saying.

      If nobody objects, I will try to cover the book loosely, theme by theme, and perhaps even chapter by chapter.

      Fukuoka's wonderfully rambling "The Ultimatium [sic] of God Nature: The One-Straw Revolution: A Recapitulation" is the voice of a pantheistic philosopher/poet crying in what he regards as the largely man-made wilderness for the peoples of the world to stop killing God=Nature (and one another) and turn to the all-important project of revegetating the deserts. You might say Fukuoka wants to make a tasty dessert out of the barren desert. He uses "desert" in a distinctly idiosyncratic way to cover any stretch of land that is not producing vegetation naturally. Therefore, the apparenly green land of the vast state of California is desert because it is artificially supported by irrigation. He believes that networks of vegetation should themselves be "water-carriers" and wherever forest and foliage are dense enough, the rain will fall.

      All these observations seem true enough to me; California is a "Cadillac Desert" mostly chrome and artifice reduced to miles of unproductive yellowish vegetation, and the distinguished biologist James Lovell has said that even Mars could be "greened" if we could find a way to seed it. The plants would generate their own atmosphere. (Lovell didn't say where the supporting microbes would come from, but that is not Fukuoka's problem; on Earth, which is all Fukuoka is concerned with, there are plenty of microbes already available).

      The way to green the desert and making it a well-planted playground for man (human) and beast to frolic in is, he inisists, not "non-intervention but Nature." Just sitting back (non-intervention) and waiting for the transformation will not bring it about. Humans have a role to play in getting the job done, but can succeed only if they discard their myopic habit of discrimination and analysis and take a broader system-wide (God-eyed, if you will) view.

      For Fukuoka, contemplation is important, but action is imperative. Doing-nothing does not mean sitting back and expecting things to get better on thier own; it means doing nothing against nature and something for or with nature. What that "something is" constitutes a large part of the book, and I will try to spell it out in subsequent posts.

      The "Ultimatum" is a 252-page paperback with pale green covers published in Japan "Copyright 1996 Shou Shin Sha." No part of the book is to be copied "without written permission of the copyright owner," so I shall restrict my account to paraphrase and occassional single-word or short phrasal quotes.

      The version I have (supplied by list-member Michiyo) is a translation into English from the original Japanese. It does not appear to have an ISBN number (Michiyo please correct me on this, if I am wrong) and was, so far as I know, distributed privately, not sold on the open market. The photos and illustrations in the Japanese original were not reproduced in the translation.

      Fukuoka's river of though swings through the following subjects: the nature of God, the epistomology of nature and the windmill-like working of cause and effect within nature; the necessity of revegetating the earth naturally; the characteristics of the desert in the US, Africa, and Europe; the threat posed to nature by cows, goats, and selective fish-breeding; the possibility of using properly prepared pelletized seeds dropped from the air to green the desert; the creation of natural farms in both temperate and sub-tropic regions; the need to choose a great variety of seeds as candidates for re-vegatation and then allowing natural patterns to flow from them.

      Along the way, Fukuoka proposes a new concept of religion based on the here and now rather than the nebullous hereafter and placing cooperation rather than war and competition at the center of life. He deconstructs the human view of time and proposes an alternative or correction to Darwin's notion of evolving species. He denounces relativism, takes an almost Kantian view of human knowledge, critiques the money economy, and describes a recipe and technique for making seedballs that is very different from anything that has yet been posted on this website. After seeing his seedballs, I realize that I have never tried anything remotely resembling them.

      More to come---and comments always welcome.

      Bob Monie--south Louisiana





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    • John Warner
      Bob! Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to summarize Ultimatum . I m printing your posts off and including them with The Natural Way , the
      Message 2 of 16 , Dec 18, 2003
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        Bob! Thanks for taking the time and making the effort to summarize "Ultimatum". I'm printing your posts off and including them with "The Natural Way", the only book of Fukuoka's I have. You are a fine scholar and I appreciate your posts

        John


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • les landeck
        I agree and have done the same including Jamie s thoughts. Les ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now
        Message 3 of 16 , Dec 18, 2003
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          I agree and have done the same including Jamie's
          thoughts.

          Les


          --- John Warner <daddyoat@...> wrote:
          > Bob! Thanks for taking the time and making the
          > effort to summarize "Ultimatum". I'm printing your
          > posts off and including them with "The Natural Way",
          > the only book of Fukuoka's I have. You are a fine
          > scholar and I appreciate your posts
          >
          > John
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
          > removed]
          >
          >



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        • animaphile
          Mr. Bob I do object to your re-presenting and more than distorting, - rather attempting to re-define Fukuoka-sans works, not only this one and not only in this
          Message 4 of 16 , Dec 18, 2003
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            Mr. Bob
            I do object to your re-presenting and more than distorting, - rather
            attempting to re-define Fukuoka-sans works, not only this one and
            not only in this last post of yours. Actually humble wise people
            know when to put out messages and when to be quiet, understand
            internally the practice and the when of discretion, God=Nature=incl.-
            humans has many ways of getting Gods messages to each of us, whether
            it is through Fukuoka's books or not. Don't fret if you don't have
            this book, it took me two years to get it since i first tried and i
            have gained as much awareness from those years without these books
            as i am now with these books, though it does give me a backstop now
            to help when people try to pull me down i can re-read Fukuoka-san to
            unburden myself and rise back to the full awareness i've always
            experienced since was created. However before i had these backstop
            messages i did speak out more in defense, when i needed to, of my
            awareness than i do now, so it's a mixed blessing having these
            backstops for my awareness, i don't share it as much in self defense
            as before, and i must share my awareness because of its incumbancy
            by conscious intervention to be beneficial.

            Mr. Bob, the writing you have done is not all bad, before anyone
            makes the mistake of thinking i'm condemning Mr. Bob, it, Mr Bob's,
            writing is just not good enough to do justice or represent Fukuoka-
            sans message in One Straw Revolution recapitulation at its heart or
            fully. Yes Mr. Bob you're more scholarly and wiser than many USA's,
            Euro-Australians, British and generally monocultural/lingual
            material people, but that does not make you a match for or
            spokesperson for Fukuoka-san in global public forums, i know this
            because neither am i a match and i have had deep Japanese
            experience, have a farm, practice Natural Farming, learned/unlearned
            & experience about Buddhism, have Oz Indigenous friends since i was
            at Kindergarten and University study learning or unlearning in
            ecology, practice releasing natural bushland regeneration, work in
            Landcare & community also, etc.. How about going directly to the
            source, no never should anyone make an electronic version, going to
            Fukuoka-san directly through Michiyo as she offered and getting up-
            to-the-minute of-the-moment messages directly?!

            When will you stop presumptuously or arogantly pretending to be the
            arbiter of what Fukuoka says, arbiter of truth and font of wisdom.
            For me Mr. Bob you have been to date, none of these things, i have
            not yet learnt anything new from you about anything, rather i have
            found you to have dumbed down Fukuoka-san to mundanity and
            mediocrity and tried to confine his practical manifestations of God -
            whole-Nature to technical and material matters, even though Fukuoka
            specifically points out that to do so is not his method or way and
            shows conclusively why. Mr. Bob, i find you to be insignificant and
            confined in yourself, in comparison to Fukuoka-san and so i don't
            really want to read your take on Fukuoka, after it has been through
            the cloudy bottle-neck or your at-this-moment mind. Implicit in this
            Mr. Bob is that i hope and pray that you open your mind and
            evaporate the clouds from over it, part of this would be to think
            for yourself and practice for yourself and use Fukuoka to unlearn,
            to forget about Kant & Marshal Mcluhan etc. or just use them to also
            unlearn fallacies, and to realise that all of us are born with a
            consciousness of full potential. Just as there are three ways
            Fukuoka-san talks about, that are obvious to anyone who is a
            practioner: - 1 turning blind-eye, willfull ignornace, denial,
            Abandonment or non-intervention - 2 against the grain, blind
            destructive, dominating or de-naturing intervention and 3 with the
            grain, edifying, actually beneficial intervention, better termed
            participation and revealing or unburdening the true all encompassing
            nature or 'the creation' or universal God!
            The same three ways of striving as one ages after birth are in the
            spirit or mind: - 1 willful ignorance etc. 2 antagonistic
            intervetion 3 sympathetic, revealing, unburdening, and unlearning-of-
            the-unnecessary intervetion!
            And three inclinations of ways in thoughts of relationships with
            more people than oneself 1) Willful ignorance, denial, blind-eye,
            abandonment or making of beings more than just oneself into 'other's
            outside of moral considerabilty eg. Solipsism, egomania, narcisism,
            vanity, egocentrism, blindly-selfish, self-centeredness, arrogance,
            unhumbleness etc. Lazy slothful non-intervention 2) making of beings
            more than just oneself into 'other's that self tries to dominate,
            subordinate, beat, pulling a person down, divert or manipulate
            people into serving ones individual self, repress, tear apart a
            persons life story , conquer, or even destroy 3) striving to benefit
            more than ones individual self with listening to the recipients
            response as a feedback for checking if one is or is not actually
            benefitting the recipient. Unlearning or never absorbing the
            learning of making more than onself into the 'other'. constant
            awareness of more than ones individual self as bigger than,
            continuous with and including oneself, not as the other.
            Participation in a subject that is the relationship between oneself
            and more selves than oneself, mutualism, etc.

            We need equable, genuine understanding of Fukuoka-san and his works,
            based on actual experience in both practical and inner life, which
            in your what have been to date voluminous mediocrity-reinforcing
            posts you have shown you have not - no farm, no acreage, no
            understanding or agreement with his philosophy, etc. Aeroponics,
            Solar panels and other gadget-freak techno-centrisms as you have so
            far written about them here are completely diversionary from
            Fukuoka, as is saying he "takes an almost Kantian view of human
            knowledge", must you re-define him according to some anglocentric or
            USA-centric derived people and notions. Actually he is nothing
            derived from Kant! Fukuoka-san takes a Fukuoka view of human
            knowledge! Bob do you have to define people you seem to percieve
            as 'other' (not in common to your self) or even perhaps people such
            as your self, according to their derivation(s) from third persons
            such as Kant, Marshal McLuhan, etc. Fukuoka-san is a philospher in
            his own right, not subsuming himself under any human, only God which
            is consistent with Nature, which includes all humans in a totality;
            which could be in english well called God, in Buddhist-English &
            Jungian-English called Universal consciouness, in Physics called the
            singularity, in Star Wars movie the 'Force' and in Japanese rendered
            into roman characters KAMI and their force KI, which is a Japanese
            pronouciation of the same Kanji character in Chinese for Chi, of
            which we all know the exercise Tai Chi, etc.
            Fukuoka-san is one of my inspirations in this present day, and real
            world, now, and i have had a gut full of Bob's and sometimes various
            people's fumbling oscillations around or pathetically lazy
            strugglings towards Fukuoka-sans meanings & messages but never
            accepting him at his word! Are you someone who has not communicated
            genuinely as a habit, so this dis-engenuousness has been your mode
            of thinking and therefore have percieved all people including
            Fukuoka to be dis-engenuous, when in fact that is just all in your
            head! These dis-engenuousnesses are clearly part of the root cause
            of the commonly accepted problems of the world and perpetuating dis-
            engenuousness here will only serve to further divert away from
            genuine messages, of which Fukuoka-sans Schizen Nouhou farming is
            obviously to any who try by experience one and on this group the one
            message. Bob if you want to consciously or unconsciously hijack
            Fukuoka-san message for your own self-promotion then do it inside
            own life and not here on a global public forum. In short Get Real or
            go away! Mr. Bob how about you ask him what he thinks of your
            methods-technical, if that is your oevre, such as what he thinks of
            aeroponics or solar panels.

            Animaphile
            Jason
          • animaphile
            Whoops, i meant to spell that word as ...dis-ingenuous... For some in depth info on Oz Sustainable living, in the totality of the social economic and
            Message 5 of 16 , Dec 18, 2003
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              Whoops, i meant to spell that word as "...dis-ingenuous..."

              For some in depth info on Oz Sustainable living, in the totality of
              the social economic and ecosystem senses, by Indigenous Kulin people
              see:
              http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/cais/ekulin/kulin.htm

              Animaphile
              Jason
            • jamie
              Hello Jason and all, I agree with all you say (though perhaps not the tone) and must admit my own guilt. It is irresponsible of Robert and I to attempt a
              Message 6 of 16 , Dec 19, 2003
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                Hello Jason and all, I agree with all you say (though perhaps not the tone)
                and must admit my own guilt. It is irresponsible of Robert and I to attempt
                a précis of something we understand only in part and then frame it in our
                own (diminished) form. I'm all for William's suggestion of the creation of
                an electronic text (as done with One-Straw). Copyright might seem a problem
                but we are now fortunate to have in Michiyo amongst us, someone who is able
                to put some of our questions to Fukuoka-san himself. Perhaps we should
                simply ask if Fukuoka-san would be willing for us to make such an electronic
                copy and have it circulated as widely as possible (or circulated within this
                group alone). It would end the travesty of 'a serial commentary' and the
                endless arguments that would ensue as we fought for our own, biased
                opinions.

                Jamie

                -----Original Message-----
                From: animaphile [mailto:animaphile@...]
                Sent: vendredi 19 décembre 2003 04:09
                To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Fukuoka's "Ultimatum" Part One of a
                Serial Commentary


                Mr. Bob
                I do object to your re-presenting and more than distorting, ...snip
              • Michiyo Shibuya
                Hello all, Maybe I should introduce myself again for new members. I live in Japan and I am involved in seed-collecting and seedball activities centered around
                Message 7 of 16 , Dec 20, 2003
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                  Hello all,
                  Maybe I should introduce myself again for new members. I live in Japan and
                  I am involved in
                  seed-collecting and seedball activities centered around Ms. Honma, who is
                  the only Japanese
                  desciple of Fukuoka.
                  "The Ultimatum..." that we are now descussing is the English version of
                  "kami to shizen to hito no kakumei",
                  which is later revised as "wara ippon no kakumei sokatsuhen, nendo dango no
                  tabi"
                  (one straw revolution recapitulation, travelling of seedball).

                  As Bob mentioned, it has never been out in the market, and in my
                  understanding, the total number of the English edtion published
                  is less than one hundred.
                  The copies were mainly brought overseas by Fukuoka-san and Honma-san as
                  gifts, and one Japanese person bought ten
                  copies to sell or give to her friends several years ago and then I bought 7
                  to the list members. And if you have one, I would assume
                  you have acquire the copy by one of the above means.
                  I am strongly object to making the elctric version of this book for I know
                  that Fukuoka-san has maintained his position against the
                  internet as a media(please be sensitive about this, and this is why seedball
                  related event is never really advertised
                  on the internet.
                  These 8 months since I joined this group, I have been trying to establish a
                  good relationship between
                  this list and Fukuoka-san, and now finally I am seeing some progress; I
                  have been able to
                  deliver messages, have access to books for sale, etc, I am hoping in the
                  near future to somehow arrange
                  for people overseas an opportunity to directly communicate with him. I try
                  to encourage Fukuoka-san by telling him
                  that there are poeple overseas discussing everyday on Fukuoka method, still
                  wanting to learn what he had taught
                  years ago. I am also trying to help him for the publication of more
                  translated work(into English), especially I am
                  interested in his first work, Mu I, and the last work, travelling of
                  seedball.
                  But if he thinks that this group will work to violate his right and
                  privacy, he may decide to totally shut up and
                  I will not be able to do these things any more. I understand that if we use
                  the internet, his message can spread more easily
                  and can influence great number of people, but we should not forget that the
                  world he dreams about is not about
                  spending half a day for farming and the rest of time in front of a computer.
                  He dreams of the world in which all of us stop
                  being selfish and make the earth one big garden where everyone can eat
                  anything and live a simple life.
                  This means that we become free from fossil fuel and stop all commercial
                  activities.
                  I now sit in front of the computer but I think of this as a temporary
                  practice, and we'd better stop it as soon as possible.
                  Indedendent of my hopes, the world may depend on computer for hundreds of
                  years from now,
                  but we may only spend several decades from now with it.

                  Anyway, to publish or not to publish the e-book should be by fukuoka-san's
                  decision. He may change his mind someday, but I am too afraid of
                  even bringing up such a topic.

                  I personally enjoyed Bob's commentary, and was thinking about translationg
                  it to be brought to Fukuoka-san himself to
                  hear what he thinks. I think that we have a right to discuss anyone's work
                  and am quite surprised some people felt
                  offended by Bob's intention. I think that these things should be
                  encouraged. Just too bad not too many people have read it.
                  I can still get copies for anyone who wants it until Honma-san decides to
                  keep some for the later use.
                  All the copies in the stock have minor damages and I have no authority to
                  give a discount. One copy is sold at 3000 yen.

                  I don't think there is no right or wrong about his philosophy. I think that
                  what he says is true and we should all listen to his
                  message more carefully so that we would catch the real meaning. But when it
                  comes to the detail and the actual report on his method,
                  he may not be too accurate and there may be places that need updating.
                  I respect him for how he writes but I respect him more for how he spend his
                  time, new discovery and surprises every moment,
                  living caring about all the world everyday.

                  Michiyo Shibuya



                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: animaphile [mailto:animaphile@...]
                  > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 1:27 PM
                  > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Fukuoka's "Ultimatum" Part One of a
                  > Serial Commentary
                  >
                  >
                  > Whoops, i meant to spell that word as "...dis-ingenuous..."
                  >
                  > For some in depth info on Oz Sustainable living, in the totality of
                  > the social economic and ecosystem senses, by Indigenous Kulin people
                  > see:
                  > http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/cais/ekulin/kulin.htm
                  >
                  > Animaphile
                  > Jason
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                  > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Robert Monie
                  Hi Michiyo and All, The poets Wordsworth and Coleridge, when they were young, had the sense that they were vibrating in sympathy with nature, like the strings
                  Message 8 of 16 , Dec 20, 2003
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                    Hi Michiyo and All,

                    The poets Wordsworth and Coleridge, when they were young, had the sense that they were vibrating in sympathy with nature, like the strings of an aeolian harp carressed by the wind. Nature was pan-theistic, shot-through, suffused with and inseparable from God. With age, both grew more conventional, and thick callouses seemed to grow over the tender--perhaps mystical--experiences of their youth. I gather that Fukuoka believes he has strayed often from the path of nature and wishes to return to those primal vibrations he felt viewing the flight of that nocturnal heron. I wonder if he has ever read translations of Wordsworth and Coleridge? You, knowing him first hand, can see that he lives his life with his initial vision still intact and does not recapitulate the old endlessly but remains vibrantly new and open to what he calls forever-changing nature.

                    I am happy and relieved that you found something in my summary and commentary to enjoy. If you were to waste Mr. Fukuoka's time by giving him my remarks to read (this would be like giving a school child's essay on King Lear to Shakespeare), he would, like any good teacher, put "red marks" (corrections) all over it. Jacques Barzun, a master teacher at Columbia, used to say that the only way to get the message of Bach or Shakespeare (or anybody else who really has something to say) across is "to let the undergraduates wipe thier dirty feet all over them." Whenever any member of this list writes about Fukuoka, we "undergraduates" are wiping out feet on him and his writings, but what other way is there to learn? Being a man of mud and sunshine, Fukuoka is a pretty hardy groundcover himself, who can stand a lot of walking on!

                    Above all, Fukuoka's writings are fun. He may be a prophet crying in the wilderness (sometimes literally as he recounts at least twice in the "Ultimatum,") but he is more often a smiling Buddha with am impish twinkle in his eye. If you want to tell him anything about me, say I wish to be known as "the guy who bought solar cells from the Amish." If he knows anything about the Amish, he will surely laugh. [If I die tomorrow, I want the epitaph on my grave to read: "May he rest in peace, the man who bought solar cells from the Amish.']

                    Abe Klauper, one of the few Americans I would mention in the same breath with Fukuoka, also does not care for the very unreal, perhaps anti-real, Internet and does not have (so far as I know) email.

                    A few list subscribers have privately contacted me to say they want to hear more of my summary and comments on "The Ultimatum." I am happy to oblige by sending the message--warts, mistakes, and all--directly to their emails offlist. Just contact me at bobm20001@....

                    I remain indebeted to Michiyo for selling me the "Ulimatum" to wipe my dirty feet on, and I hope that if nothing else, the mixture may decompose into something fertile.

                    Bob Monie in south Louisiana, wondering if the plant defamation league will sue Tim Peters for naming one of his carrot varieties "atomic red" [My check in in the mail, Tim; I'm going to put atomic red next to my leek, Mao Se Tung, and we'll see what happens.]

                    Michiyo Shibuya <michiyos@...> wrote:
                    Hello all,
                    Maybe I should introduce myself again for new members. I live in Japan and
                    I am involved in
                    seed-collecting and seedball activities centered around Ms. Honma, who is
                    the only Japanese
                    desciple of Fukuoka.
                    "The Ultimatum..." that we are now descussing is the English version of
                    "kami to shizen to hito no kakumei",
                    which is later revised as "wara ippon no kakumei sokatsuhen, nendo dango no
                    tabi"
                    (one straw revolution recapitulation, travelling of seedball).

                    As Bob mentioned, it has never been out in the market, and in my
                    understanding, the total number of the English edtion published
                    is less than one hundred.
                    The copies were mainly brought overseas by Fukuoka-san and Honma-san as
                    gifts, and one Japanese person bought ten
                    copies to sell or give to her friends several years ago and then I bought 7
                    to the list members. And if you have one, I would assume
                    you have acquire the copy by one of the above means.
                    I am strongly object to making the elctric version of this book for I know
                    that Fukuoka-san has maintained his position against the
                    internet as a media(please be sensitive about this, and this is why seedball
                    related event is never really advertised
                    on the internet.
                    These 8 months since I joined this group, I have been trying to establish a
                    good relationship between
                    this list and Fukuoka-san, and now finally I am seeing some progress; I
                    have been able to
                    deliver messages, have access to books for sale, etc, I am hoping in the
                    near future to somehow arrange
                    for people overseas an opportunity to directly communicate with him. I try
                    to encourage Fukuoka-san by telling him
                    that there are poeple overseas discussing everyday on Fukuoka method, still
                    wanting to learn what he had taught
                    years ago. I am also trying to help him for the publication of more
                    translated work(into English), especially I am
                    interested in his first work, Mu I, and the last work, travelling of
                    seedball.
                    But if he thinks that this group will work to violate his right and
                    privacy, he may decide to totally shut up and
                    I will not be able to do these things any more. I understand that if we use
                    the internet, his message can spread more easily
                    and can influence great number of people, but we should not forget that the
                    world he dreams about is not about
                    spending half a day for farming and the rest of time in front of a computer.
                    He dreams of the world in which all of us stop
                    being selfish and make the earth one big garden where everyone can eat
                    anything and live a simple life.
                    This means that we become free from fossil fuel and stop all commercial
                    activities.
                    I now sit in front of the computer but I think of this as a temporary
                    practice, and we'd better stop it as soon as possible.
                    Indedendent of my hopes, the world may depend on computer for hundreds of
                    years from now,
                    but we may only spend several decades from now with it.

                    Anyway, to publish or not to publish the e-book should be by fukuoka-san's
                    decision. He may change his mind someday, but I am too afraid of
                    even bringing up such a topic.

                    I personally enjoyed Bob's commentary, and was thinking about translationg
                    it to be brought to Fukuoka-san himself to
                    hear what he thinks. I think that we have a right to discuss anyone's work
                    and am quite surprised some people felt
                    offended by Bob's intention. I think that these things should be
                    encouraged. Just too bad not too many people have read it.
                    I can still get copies for anyone who wants it until Honma-san decides to
                    keep some for the later use.
                    All the copies in the stock have minor damages and I have no authority to
                    give a discount. One copy is sold at 3000 yen.

                    I don't think there is no right or wrong about his philosophy. I think that
                    what he says is true and we should all listen to his
                    message more carefully so that we would catch the real meaning. But when it
                    comes to the detail and the actual report on his method,
                    he may not be too accurate and there may be places that need updating.
                    I respect him for how he writes but I respect him more for how he spend his
                    time, new discovery and surprises every moment,
                    living caring about all the world everyday.

                    Michiyo Shibuya



                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: animaphile [mailto:animaphile@...]
                    > Sent: Friday, December 19, 2003 1:27 PM
                    > To: fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [fukuoka_farming] Re: Fukuoka's "Ultimatum" Part One of a
                    > Serial Commentary
                    >
                    >
                    > Whoops, i meant to spell that word as "...dis-ingenuous..."
                    >
                    > For some in depth info on Oz Sustainable living, in the totality of
                    > the social economic and ecosystem senses, by Indigenous Kulin people
                    > see:
                    > http://www.arts.monash.edu.au/cais/ekulin/kulin.htm
                    >
                    > Animaphile
                    > Jason
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > fukuoka_farming-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
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                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/fukuoka_farming/
                    >
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                    >
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                    >



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                  • sinniss@shaw.ca
                    Jason, Bob, Jamie, and all: As to the tone of Jason’s most recent epistle, I will say much less politely what Jamie has already implied: it is a grandiose
                    Message 9 of 16 , Dec 20, 2003
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                      Jason, Bob, Jamie, and all:

                      As to the tone of Jason’s most recent epistle, I will say much less
                      politely what Jamie has already implied: it is a grandiose rant. It
                      exhibits none of the humility and enlightenment the author claims to
                      have in such abundance. I do not believe our tiny group of
                      correspondents can support personal attacks on other members, such as
                      those launched by periodically by Jason. However, I do believe it is
                      right to criticize behaviour on occasion, and that time has come. Again.

                      Jason, I do read widely, since some of our interests overlap, and I
                      recall that I once encountered an example of your behaviour and methods
                      in the records of another online discussion group. I found them
                      repugnantly overbearing then, as I do now (and as the moderator of that
                      group did then). I hope that you will be more considerate in the future.
                      It would good to begin now.

                      As to the central point of Jason’s made, I cannot endorse it. What
                      extraordinary arrogance is carried in it! Nobody here, and I mean
                      *nobody* is qualified to speak for Mr. Fukuoka. The closest would be
                      Michiyo, who can at least talk to him on occasion. By the same token,
                      nobody has the right to tell anybody else to “shut up” for being a less
                      than pure “disciple of the faith” (as defined by some would-be pope,
                      perhaps?). We are all aware of Bob’s biases and of Jamie’s biases.
                      Neither has made any secret of them. I value Bob’s eclectic and
                      sceptical perspective, and have great respect for Jamie's attention to
                      fundamentals (a very different thing from fundamentalism!). We can all
                      do our own thinking, thank you very much, and will not confuse their
                      interpretations of Mr. Fukuoka’s work with the work itself. As for me, I
                      am interested in both the original and in discussion concerning it, and
                      resent Jason’s attempt to cut off that discussion before it begins.

                      By all means, Bob and Jamie, do continue. And publicly, not in hiding
                      from some would-be dictator.

                      Others have said some of the above, more gently and perhaps with greater
                      elegance. However, I wish to ensure that the message is perfectly clear.
                      These are, perhaps unfortunately, the most charitable words I have been
                      able to find.

                      Stephen
                    • animaphile
                      What lies about me, have you bothered to read my post really? and try reading Bob s post 2814 reply to my first personal input to this group, it was his at
                      Message 10 of 16 , Dec 21, 2003
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                        What lies about me, have you bothered to read my post really?
                        and try reading Bob's post 2814 reply to my first personal input to
                        this group, it was his at that time aggresiveness & overbearing but
                        subltey covered by the subject, attacks that were worse than honest
                        open attacks, and honest open emotional responses are better than
                        open honest attacks, mine in recent reply to Bob's question of
                        whether anyone objects to his allowing himself to be percieved as
                        spokesperson for Fukuoka on this group by not saying that he isn't
                        spoekesperson was my heartfelt emotional response written with my
                        heart for Bob not against him, as i explained more in private email
                        to Bob. Stephen yours is more personal and factually incorrect than
                        my post, for example there is no other group i posted an attack in,
                        this is a lie, put up the evidence for this or shut your lies up. I
                        am standing up for good faith, and wishing to cancel any bad faith
                        communication here about Fukuoka because i want to contribute and
                        share myself in good faith, but cannot do so when there is not
                        reciprocal good faith. I suugest again read the first response of
                        substance to my shy first words on this group in Bob's agressive
                        2814. i am clearly not a dictator, not wishing to restrict anyone,
                        not condemning anyone, i wish for more diversity than only Bob's re-
                        presentation, and if Bob comments in a way that does not presume to
                        be the best commentator here no matter if some people say he is, i
                        have been called an authority, expert, blah blah blah, in my
                        activities in Australia but refuse to adopt and internalise this
                        heirarchical social relationship, rather taking it as a sign that
                        i'm not transferring my communication of my understanding clearly
                        enough for these people to understand equally to myself.
                        i want Bob to continue contributing but not in such a way as he does
                        so on behalf of this group or Fukuoka-san, but rather all readers
                        post their comments on the "Ultimatum..." clearly stated as personal
                        comments, rather than as summaries, as Fukuoka's words boiled down
                        etc. etc. i am equally concerned with all members of this group,
                        equally with the least advantaged in any sense, with those who don't
                        know Bob's biases, those who don't have information resources, those
                        who are not seasoned computer users, those who are have very limited
                        computer time (as myself), those who don't speak english as a first
                        language and would not perceive the subtexts and subtle politics or
                        biases or subtle cultural, social and historical inequalities of
                        the posters including myself, i want more indigenous peoples (so
                        called hunter gatherers) many of whom i know have added an
                        adopted 'western' technologies to their toolkit of survival, to be
                        encouraged to participate in this group by its equality and its
                        humility after the example of Fukuoka-san. I want Fukuoka-san
                        example to be more fully understood not dumbed down while being
                        appearing full, nor do i want Fukuoka to be presented as some
                        unattainable idol - idolatry, and most importantly from my
                        experience of personal love of Japanese people - friends of mine do
                        i want Japanese people generally or Fukuoka-san specifically to be
                        communicated of as the 'OTHER'. I ask strongly for this good faith
                        by asking "Get real!". My wording is measured to mirror the writing
                        of the person i'm repsonding to, or if it is a general response to
                        all then i wite in the international english i learned when i
                        learned to speak with Japanese not fluent in English, speakers. This
                        writing is a mixed response to Stephen and to the general group.

                        As i said to Bob privately, mine was a heartfelt emotional response
                        of the personal and compassionate kind, and when i added additional
                        response later after my emotions had released privately to Bob, i
                        said "Actually, i hope you now get real rather than going away.

                        What did the chicken say to the man who crossed the 4 lane highway
                        to analyse the health of the chicken? You should have walked in the
                        opposite direction back onto your farm and sown some seeds, i'm not
                        an object for your analysis, i have my own life and if your farm is
                        natural and great like mine i might fly over the highway, because
                        i'm a natural chicken with real wings, to visit you one day, because
                        it is on your farm that you can get over your analysis attitude and
                        thus where we can really start to get to know each other as
                        conscious beings, naturally."

                        I would like, Michiyo, if you could please ask Fukuoka-san, to get
                        the group full permission to quote small extracts from his books,
                        including "...Ultimatum..." and also small extracts from his
                        Japanese books, translated by our kind Japanese members or my
                        Japanese speaking friends.

                        Kindness to you all,
                        Yes, you included,
                        Animaphile,
                        Jason

                        --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, sinniss@s... wrote:
                        > Jason, Bob, Jamie, and all:
                        >
                        > As to the tone of Jason's most recent epistle, I will say much less
                        > politely what Jamie has already implied: it is a grandiose rant. It
                        > exhibits none of the humility and enlightenment the author claims
                        to
                        > have in such abundance. I do not believe our tiny group of
                        > correspondents can support personal attacks on other members, such
                        as
                        > those launched by periodically by Jason. However, I do believe it
                        is
                        > right to criticize behaviour on occasion, and that time has come.
                        Again.
                        >
                        > Jason, I do read widely, since some of our interests overlap, and I
                        > recall that I once encountered an example of your behaviour and
                        methods
                        > in the records of another online discussion group. I found them
                        > repugnantly overbearing then, as I do now (and as the moderator of
                        that
                        > group did then). I hope that you will be more considerate in the
                        future.
                        > It would good to begin now.
                        >
                        > As to the central point of Jason's made, I cannot endorse it. What
                        > extraordinary arrogance is carried in it! Nobody here, and I mean
                        > *nobody* is qualified to speak for Mr. Fukuoka. The closest would
                        be
                        > Michiyo, who can at least talk to him on occasion. By the same
                        token,
                        > nobody has the right to tell anybody else to "shut up" for being a
                        less
                        > than pure "disciple of the faith" (as defined by some would-be
                        pope,
                        > perhaps?). We are all aware of Bob's biases and of Jamie's biases.
                        > Neither has made any secret of them. I value Bob's eclectic and
                        > sceptical perspective, and have great respect for Jamie's
                        attention to
                        > fundamentals (a very different thing from fundamentalism!). We can
                        all
                        > do our own thinking, thank you very much, and will not confuse
                        their
                        > interpretations of Mr. Fukuoka's work with the work itself. As for
                        me, I
                        > am interested in both the original and in discussion concerning
                        it, and
                        > resent Jason's attempt to cut off that discussion before it begins.
                        >
                        > By all means, Bob and Jamie, do continue. And publicly, not in
                        hiding
                        > from some would-be dictator.
                        >
                        > Others have said some of the above, more gently and perhaps with
                        greater
                        > elegance. However, I wish to ensure that the message is perfectly
                        clear.
                        > These are, perhaps unfortunately, the most charitable words I have
                        been
                        > able to find.
                        >
                        > Stephen
                      • animaphile
                        Stephen, i thank you for your effort of words below, but not necessarily their content & meaning. i think you over-re-acted. Good faith is what i want, meaning
                        Message 11 of 16 , Dec 21, 2003
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                          Stephen,
                          i thank you for your effort of words below, but not necessarily
                          their content & meaning. i think you over-re-acted. Good faith is
                          what i want, meaning no willful biases and no lies! However
                          ambitious that want may read.

                          On the most 'correct' in English meaning of the phrase 'good faith'
                          see item no's 11 & 12 from the

                          ***Oxford English Dictionary***,

                          for everyones clarity &, if you need it on the meaning of the
                          phrase "good faith", edification.

                          This is my meaning of the words "Good Faith". Just because it is the
                          most correct definition doesn't make its meaning the most true. i
                          write to communicate sincerely not to impose my perceived truths or
                          try to impose any perceived truths. i am not especially a Catholic,
                          not exclusively adherant to any religion, whether it is any of the
                          exclusive versions of the following types of religiousness: nominal-
                          fake or honest exclusively christian (there been to many of the
                          former in the world), science-religion which are called scientism
                          and pseudo-science, exclusively Buddhist, exclusively Pantheistic,-
                          Panentheistic,- Aetheistic,- Agnostic etc. Jesus and Buddha and
                          Fukuoka and my Aborigianl Elder friends have often given very clear
                          examples of being non-exclusive in who (not limited to homo sapiens)
                          they love, who they care for and who they regard as morally
                          considerable! My understanding of this common message from them all
                          is that we are all equal under God, which is a word when used in its
                          broadest meaning includes all of Nature (Christians call it "the
                          creation"), all humans and all the universe, and all the 'force' or
                          energy which makes existance exist. Hence i think no-one has any
                          excuse for trying to be superior or to think of themselves as
                          morally or in value superior to anyone else. To say so is not my
                          received wisdom from the english translation of the bible or any
                          doctrine or dogma, rather it is my actual experience of what is the
                          most functional conduct in my relations. It is that good faith is
                          the best personal policy. I think i have broad agreement on this in
                          many societies and peoples of the earth irrespective of 'religion',
                          also in the trivia of numerical majority even if it doesn't include
                          the 'West', better described by the materialistically thinking
                          dominated.
                          So in this Fukuoka Farming e-group, aware of his example, i think it
                          is not to much to expect and write in instistence of good faith.

                          I wish to have this as one of the consciousness spaces in the world
                          were people readers are open to communicate in good faith without
                          the political pressure to act & re-act to willful biases or lies.
                          These are merely my personal words not some stated rules or
                          restrictions or dogmas, - as requests in firm, strong language tone,
                          intentionally. It is to start this topic for discussion but with
                          strong words not with formal starting words, not to finish this
                          topic!

                          It is my good faith!
                          to stand up!

                          *****************************************************************

                          faith [fe], sb. Forms: 3 feið, 3-4 feiþ, (4 feiþ), 3-6 feith(e, 4-5
                          feyth(e, 4 faiþ(e, 4-6 fayth(e, (5 fath, feth), 5-6 faithe, 4-
                          faith. See also fay sb.1 [a. OFr. feid, feit (pronounced feið, ?
                          feiþ: see Suchier in Gröber's Grundriss Rom. Phil. I. 586), = Pr. fe
                          (nom. fes), Sp., Pg. fé, Ital. fede:-L. fidem, f. root of fd-
                          e&breve.re to trust. The later OFr. form fei (whence mod.Fr. foi)
                          was also adopted in ME., and survived in certain phrases down to
                          16th c.: see fay sb.1The L. fides, like its etymological cognate Gr.
                          pístij, which it renders in the N.T., had the following principal
                          senses: 1. Belief, trust. 2. That which produces belief, evidence,
                          token, pledge, engagement. 3. Trust in its objective aspect, troth;
                          observance of trust, fidelity.]
                          I. Belief, trust, confidence.

                          1. a. Confidence, reliance, trust (in the ability, goodness, etc.,
                          of a person; in the efficacy or worth of a thing; or in the truth of
                          a statement or doctrine). Const. in, of. In early use, only with
                          reference to religious objects; this is still the prevalent
                          application, and often colours the wider use.

                          A. 1300 Cursor M. 3405 (Cott.) In drightin was his fayth ai fest.
                          C. 1340 Cursor M. 2286 (Trin.) In maumetrie furst feiþ he [nembrot]
                          fond.
                          C. 1391 Chaucer Astrol. ii. §4 Observauncez..& rytes of paiens, in
                          which my spirit ne hath no feith.
                          1398 Trevisa Barth De P.R. xv. lxxxvii (1495) 522 The Germans tornyd
                          the Liuones..to the worshyp and fayth of one god.
                          1550 Crowley Last Trump. 151 Se that thy fayth be pitched On thy
                          Lord God.
                          1680 Otway Orphan ii. vii, Attempt no farther to delude my Faith.
                          1768-74 Tucker Lt. Nat. (1852) II. 235 Such an one has great faith
                          in Ward's pills.
                          1821 Chalmers Serm. I. i. 18 Faith in the constancy of this law.
                          1837 J. H. Newman Par. Serm. (ed. 2) III. vi. 87 To have faith in
                          God is to surrender oneself to God.
                          1848 Macaulay Hist. Eng. I. 168 Without faith in human virtue or in
                          human attachment.
                          1855 Kingsley Lett. (1878) I. 442 There was the most intense faith
                          in him..that Right was right.
                          b. Belief proceeding from reliance on testimony or authority.

                          1551 T. Wilson Logike (1580) 60 b, An historicall faithe. As I doe
                          beleve that Willyam Conquerour was kyng of Englande.
                          A. 1628 Preston Breastpl. Faith (1630) 15 Faith is..assenting to
                          Truthes for the Authority of the Speaker.
                          1725 Watts Logic ii. ii. §9 When we derive the Evidence of any
                          Proposition from the Testimony of others, it is called the Evidence
                          of Faith.
                          A. 1873 Huxley in Hamerton Intell. Life viii. ii. (1873) 299 The
                          absolute rejection of authority..the annihilation of the spirit of
                          blind faith.
                          2. Phrases. to give faith: to yield belief to. to pin one's faith to
                          or upon: to believe implicitly.

                          1430 Paston Lett. No. 14 I. 30, I prey yow to gyve feith and
                          credence touchant this matier.
                          1552 Abp. Hamilton Catech. (1884) 27 Fayth to be geven to the Word
                          of God.
                          1556 Aurelio & Isab. (1608) I vij, One oughte to geve more feithe
                          unto the secrete consentment of the soule, than [etc.].
                          1653 H. Cogan tr. Pinto's Trav. xxxv. 140 Opinions..unto which they
                          give so much faith, that nothing can be able to remove them from it.
                          1702 Pope Dryope 69 If to the wretched any faith be giv'n.
                          1710 Hearne Collect. 4 Mar., Some pin..their Faith on..Hoadly.
                          1797 Mrs. Radcliffe Italian vi, You believe..that I am willing to
                          give faith to wonderful stories.
                          1812 Shelley Propos. Association Prose Wks. I. 270 Well--meaning
                          people, who pin their faith upon their grand&dubh.mother's
                          apronstring.
                          1885 London Society Apr. 357 The..practitioner of the old
                          school..pins his faith to time&dubh.honoured methods.
                          3. Theol. in various specific applications. a. Belief in the truths
                          of religion; belief in the authenticity of divine revelation
                          (whether viewed as contained in Holy Scripture or in the teaching of
                          the Church), and acceptance of the revealed doctrines. b. That kind
                          of faith (distinctively called saving or justifying faith) by which,
                          in the teaching of the N.T., a sinner is justified in the sight of
                          God. This is very variously defined by theologians (see quots.), but
                          there is general agreement in regarding it as a conviction
                          practically operative on the character and will, and thus opposed to
                          the mere intellectual assent to religious truth (sometimes called
                          speculative faith). c. The spiritual apprehension of divine truths,
                          or of realities beyond the reach of sensible experience or logical
                          proof. By Christian writers often identified with the preceding; but
                          not exclusively confined to Christian use. Often viewed as the
                          exercise of a special faculty in the soul of man, or as the result
                          of supernatural illumination.

                          1382 Wyclif Jas. ii. 17 Feith, if it haue not werkes, is deed in it
                          silf.
                          1526 Tindale Prol. Moses Wks. 7 Fayth, is the beleuyng of Gods
                          promises, and a sure trust in the goodnes and truth of God, which
                          fayth iustified Abrah.
                          1555 Eden Decades Pref. to Rdr. (Arb.) 51 Abraham the father of
                          fayth.
                          1581 Marbeck Bk. of Notes 375 Faith..maketh God & man friends.
                          1651 Hobbes Leviath. iii. xlii. 271 Faith is a gift of God, which
                          Man can neither give, nor take away.
                          1690 Locke Hum. Und. iv. xviii, Faith..is the Assent to any
                          Proposition..upon the Credit of the Proposer, as coming from God, in
                          some extraordinary way of Communication.
                          1700 Burkitt On N.T. John i. 12 Faith is..such an affiance in
                          Christ..as is the parent and principle of obedience to him.
                          1744 Swift Serm. Trinity 52 Faith is an entire Dependence upon the
                          Truth, the Power, the Justice, and the mercy of God.
                          1781 Cowper Expost. 111 Faith, the root whence only can arise The
                          graces of a life that wins the skies.
                          1830 Wordsw. Russian Fugitive ii. xi, That monumental grace Of
                          Faith.
                          1860 Pusey Min. Proph. 415 The faith of which he speaks, is a real
                          true confiding faith.
                          1869 Goulbourn Purs. Holiness iii. 21 Faith..the faculty by which we
                          realize unseen things.
                          4. That which is or should be believed. a. A system of religious
                          belief, e.g. the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc., faith. Also,
                          confession, rule of faith, for which see those words.

                          C. 1325 Coer de L. 4062 He is at the Sarezynes faith.
                          C. 1330 R. Brunne Chron. (1810) 24 At haly kirkes fayth alle on were
                          boþe.
                          1393 Langl. P. Pl. C. xviii. 258 In a faith lyueþ þat folke, and in
                          a false mene.
                          C. 1400 Maundev. (1839) iii. 18 Thei varien from oure Feithe.
                          1485 Caxton Chas. Gt. 1 The cristen feythe is affermed.
                          1529 More Dyaloge ii. Wks. 179/1 The churche..muste..haue all one
                          fayth.
                          1553 Eden Treat. Newe Ind. (Arb.) 24 They haue no law written and
                          are of no faith.
                          1599 Shaks. Much Ado i. i. 75 He weares his faith but as the fashion
                          of his hat.
                          1611 Bible Jude 3 Earnestly contend for the faith which was once
                          deliuered vnto the Saints.
                          1653 H. Cogan tr. Pinto's Trav. viii. 21, I swear to thee by the
                          faith of Pagan, that [etc.].
                          1832 W. Irving Alhambra I. 302 Are you willing to renounce the faith
                          of your father?
                          1858 Ld. St. Leonards Handy Bk. Prop. Law xiii. 81 The child should
                          be brought up in the religious faith of the father.
                          transf.
                          1878 Morley Byron Crit. Misc. 1st Ser. 224 It was perhaps the secret
                          of the black transformation of the social faith of '89 into the
                          worship of the Conqueror of '99.
                          b. the faith: the true religion; usually = the Christian faith.
                          Also, without article in certain phrases, as contrary to faith, etc.
                          of faith: part and parcel of the faith.

                          A. 1300 Cursor M. 21013 (Cott.) Iacob þe mar..þe land o spaigne in
                          fait he fest.
                          C. 1340 Cursor M. 8990 (Fairf.) Þat caytef kinde..made him [salamon]
                          in þe faiþ ful fals.
                          A. 1375 Joseph Arim. 11 Joseph..hedde I-turned to þe feyþ, fifti
                          with him-seluen.
                          C. 1485 Digby Myst. ii. 240 A very pynacle of the fayth.
                          1555 Eden Decades Pref. to Rdr. (Arb.) 50 marg., The Indians subdued
                          to the fayth.
                          1611 Bible Transl. Pref. 3 A manifest falling away from the Faith.
                          1635 Pagitt Christianogr. i. iii. (1636) 108 The Gospel conteineth
                          intirely the faith.
                          1844 Lingard Anglo-Sax. Ch. (1845) II. App. 401 Matters contrary to
                          faith.
                          1867 Bp. Forbes Explan. 39 Art. i. (1881) 5 The uncompounded nature
                          of God is of faith.
                          c. What is believed, or required to be believed, on a particular
                          subject. Also pl. points of faith, tenets.

                          C. 1380 Wyclif Sel. Wks. III. 378 Freris perverten þo right feithe
                          of þo sacrament of þo auter.
                          1513 Bradshaw St. Werburge i. 1638 Prechynge..The faythes of holy
                          chyrche.
                          1845 Maurice Mor. & Met. Philos. in Encycl. Metrop. II. 632/1 We
                          assumed the common faith of our countrymen respecting
                          the..discipline of the Jew to be true.
                          1883 H. Drummond Nat. Law in Spir. W. 276 A repetition of the Hebrew
                          poets' faith.
                          (obs) 5. act of the faith: = auto da fé. Obs.

                          1656 Ben Israel Vind. Judæorum in Phenix (1708) II. 400 The Act of
                          the Faith, which is ordinarily done at Toledo, was done at Madrid,
                          Anno 1632.
                          1709 Lond. Gaz. No. 4565/1 On the thirtieth of the last Month an Act
                          of Faith was held in this City [Lisbon] by the Inquisition.
                          II. Inducement to belief or trust.

                          (obs) 6. Power to produce belief, credit, convincing authority. Obs.

                          A. 1638 Mede Ep. to Estwick Wks. iv. 836 S. Jerom is a man of no
                          faith with me.
                          1808 W. Mitford Hist. Greece IV. xxxi. (app.) 124 It may not be
                          unnecessary..towards establishing the faith of the
                          foregoing..narrative.
                          (obs) 7. Attestation, confirmation, assurance. Obs.

                          1393 Gower Conf. III. 326 To yive a more feith..In blacke clothes
                          they hem cloth.
                          1556 Aurelio & Isab. (1608) F vj, The manney folde paines..makethe
                          cleare faithe inoughe, that the greter follie is yowres.
                          1654 Jer. Taylor Real Pres. xii. 27 An excellent MS. that makes
                          faith in this particular.
                          1730 A. Gordon Maffei's Amphith. 375 Relying on the Faith of Books.
                          (obs) 8. a. Assurance given, formal declaration, pledge, promise. In
                          phrases, to do, make faith (= L. fidem facere): to affirm, promise,
                          give surety. to give one's faith (= L. fidem dare): to give
                          assurance, pledge one's word. on his faith: on parole. Obs.

                          1382 Wyclif Prov. xi. 15 He shal be tormetid with euel that doth
                          feith [Vulg. fidem facit] for a stranger.
                          C. 1400 Destr. Troy 548 Þat e me faith make, In dede for to do as I
                          desyre wille.
                          C. 1430 Syr Gener. (Roxb.) 9969 He toke feith of free and bond.
                          1483 Caxton Gold. Leg. 223/1 Alle made fayth to other that [etc.].
                          1523 Ld. Berners Froiss. I. ccxi. 254 The kyng of England..trusted
                          them on theyr faithes.
                          1548 Hall Chron. 184 b, Emongest men of warre, faith or othe,
                          syldome is perfourmed.
                          1558 Bp. Watson Sev. Sacram. xxviii. 178 Jane, here I geue to thee
                          my faythe and truthe..I wyll marrye thee.
                          1581 Marbeck Bk. of Notes 807 Faith was made to them, that..they
                          should come safe.
                          1641 Baker Chron. (1679) 32/2 King William..upon faith given returns
                          to London.
                          1685 H. Consett Prac. Spir. Courts 265 If the Plaintiff doth
                          personally make Faith, that [etc.].
                          b. on the faith of: in reliance on the security of.

                          1734 tr. Rollin's Anc. Hist. (1827) I. 344 [They] traded there on
                          the faith of treaties.
                          1839 Thirlwall Greece VII. lvii. 204 On the faith of his oath they
                          had placed themselves in his power.
                          1866 Crump Banking i. 28 The bank-note is circulated entirely upon
                          the faith of the issuing bank.
                          1890 Sir R. Romer in Law Times' Rep. LXIII. 685/2 The plaintiff
                          applied for shares..on the faith of the prospectus.
                          III. The obligation imposed by a trust.

                          9. a. The duty of fulfilling one's trust; allegiance owed to a
                          superior, fealty; the obligation of a promise or engagement.

                          C. 1250 Gen. & Ex. 2187 Bi ðe feið ic o to king pharaon.
                          C. 1330 R. Brunne Chron. (1810) 333 Þe best were þan in his feith.
                          1389 in Eng. Gilds (1870) 39 The feyth þat þei owen to God.
                          14.. Customs of Malton in Surtees Misc. (1890) 63 He schall never
                          clame no thyng..bott alonly hys faythe for hys.. lande.
                          C. 1489 Caxton Sonnes of Aymon xxv. 538 Vpon the feyth that ye owe
                          to me.
                          1568 Grafton Chron. II. 78 Untill he were returned unto his fayth.
                          1598 W. Phillips Linschoten in Arb. Garner III. 15 The Lords..took
                          their oaths of faith and allegiance unto Don Philip.
                          1671 Milton Samson 987 Who to save Her countrey from a fierce
                          destroyer, chose Above the faith of wedlock-bands.
                          1863 Mary Howitt tr. F. Bremer's Greece I. vii. 245 To give their
                          faith and obedience to the French monarch.
                          b. In many phrases, in which the sense approaches that of 8: to
                          engage, pledge, plight one's faith; (obs) to swear, perjure one's
                          faith; to keep hold), break, violate one's faith; so breach of faith.

                          C. 1320 Seuyn Sag. (W.) 3274 For glotonye he brake his fayth.
                          C. 1374 Chaucer Former Age 48 Everych of hem his feith to oother
                          kepte.
                          C. 1400 Maundev. (1839) xii. 138 Non of hem holdethe Feythe to
                          another.
                          1483 Caxton Cato B j, A man ought..to kepe feyth unto his frendes.
                          1588 Shaks. L.L.L. v. ii. 283 Berowne hath plighted faith to me.
                          C. 1592 Marlowe Jew of Malta ii. ii. Faith is not to be held with
                          heretics.
                          1665 Manley Grotius' Low C. Warres 339 No Faith is to be held with
                          such as differ from them.
                          1697 Dryden Virg. Past. viii. 25, I my Nisa's perjur'd Faith
                          deplore.
                          1700 Dryden Palamon & Arcite 78 For you alone, I broke my Faith with
                          injur'd Palamon.
                          1781 Gibbon Decl. & F. II. 129 The two princes mutually engaged
                          their faith never to [etc.].
                          1874 Stubbs Const. Hist. (1875) II. xv. 296 He led the way and kept
                          faith.
                          10. The quality of fulfilling one's trust; faithfulness, fidelity,
                          loyalty. to bear faith: to be loyal to.

                          C. 1250 Gen. & Ex. 2678 Ðat him sal feið wurðful ben boren.
                          A. 1300 Cursor M. 6980 (Cott.) Þair faith lasted littel space,
                          þai..lefte þe lagh of hei drightin.
                          C. 1391 Chaucer Astrol. Prol. 2 Alle that him feyth bereth &
                          obeieth.
                          1393 Gower Conf. III. 70 Thus he..feigneth under guile feith.
                          1590 Shaks. Mids. N. iii. ii. 127 Bearing the badge of faith to
                          proue them true.
                          1593 Shaks. 2 Hen VI. v. i, 166 Oh where is Faith? Oh, where is
                          Loyalty?
                          1649 Evelyn Mem. (1857) III. 40 Persons of great faith to his
                          Majesty's cause.
                          1741 Middleton Cicero I. vi. 492 Illustrious for victory and faith.
                          1810 T. Jefferson Writ. (1830) IV. 137 Confidence..in our faith and
                          probity.
                          1844 H. H. Wilson Brit. India II. 166 Indignant at his want of faith.
                          11. good faith, bad faith: = L. bona, mala fides, in which the
                          primary notion seems to have been the objective aspect of confidence
                          well or ill bestowed. The Eng. uses closely follow those of L.

                          a. good faith: fidelity, loyalty (= sense 10); esp. honesty of
                          intention in entering into engagements, sincerity in professions,
                          bona fides.

                          C. 1340 Cursor M. 6778 (Fairf.) To vse gode faiþ god vs bede.
                          1480 Caxton Chron. Eng. ccxxv. 230 By good feyth and trust.
                          1824 Mackintosh Sp. Ho. Com. 15 June Wks. 1846 III. 464 They have
                          been able to observe good faith with their creditors.
                          1871 Blackie Four Phases i. 37 Among what..men..are fellowship and
                          good faith possible?
                          1885 Sir J. Hannen in Law Reports 15 Q. Bench Div. 139 It is
                          admitted that the magistrates..acted in good faith.
                          b. bad faith: faithlessness, treachery; intent to deceive. Punic
                          rarely Carthaginian faith (= L. fides Punica): faithlessness.

                          1631 Massinger Believe as you List ii. ii, The Punicque faith is
                          branded by Our enemies.
                          1653 H. Cogan tr. Pinto's Trav. xlvi. 179 The bad faith of the
                          Chineses.
                          1711 Steele Spect. No. 174 p. 2 Carthaginian Faith was a proverbial
                          Phrase to intimate Breach of Leagues.
                          1768-74 Tucker Lt. Nat. (1852) II. 318 French faith became the same
                          among us, as Punic faith had been among the Romans.
                          12. In asseverative phrases. a. in good faith: in truth, really,
                          `sooth to say'.

                          C. 1350 Will. Palerne 858 And fayn sche wold þan is feiþ haue fold
                          him in hire armes.
                          C. 1386 Chaucer Chan. Yeom. Prol. & T. 91 He is to wys in feith, as
                          I bileeue.
                          1393 Gower Conf. III. 25 In good feith to telle soth I trowe..She
                          wolde nought her eye swerve.
                          C. 1400 Destr. Troy 735 Þou failes not in faith of a fowle end.
                          1513 More Rich. III in Grafton Chron. II. 769 In good fayth..I would
                          not be he that [etc.].
                          1599 Minsheu Dial. Sp. & Eng. (1623) 28 In faith this mule hath
                          taken degree in Zalamanca.
                          1755 Smollett Quix. (1803) 107 In good faith, we have no poor
                          kindred now.
                          b. in faith, i' faith, faith, good faith: used interjectionally.

                          C. 1420 Sir Amadace (Camd.) xii, Nedelonges most I sitte him by. Hi-
                          fath, ther wille him non mon butte I.
                          1513 More Rich. III in Grafton Chron. I. 781 In faith man..I was
                          never so sory.
                          C. 1530 Redforde Play Wit & Sc. (1848) 11 Do ye fle, ifayth?
                          1586 A. Day Eng. Secretary ii. (1625) 48 Faith sir..tis but as the
                          wiser sort doe hold opinion.
                          1594 Shaks. Rich. III, ii. iv. 16 Good faith, good faith, the saying
                          did not hold.
                          1607 Tourneur Rev. Trag. v. iii, Y' faith, we're well.
                          1709 Tatler No. 110 p. 4 Faith Isaac..thou art a very unaccountable
                          old Fellow.
                          1777 Sheridan Sch. Scand. iii. i, Speak to me thus, and i' faith
                          there's nothing I could refuse you.
                          1795 Burns For a' That iv, Gude faith, he mauna fa' that.
                          1840 Dickens Barn. Rudge v, I'd rather be in old John's chimney-
                          corner, faith.
                          1849 James Woodman v, Good faith, he has no choice.
                          1855 Browning Bp. Blougram's Apol., Cool i' faith! We ought to have
                          our Abbey back you see.
                          c. In quasi-oaths. by or on my, thy, etc., faith, by the faith of my
                          body, love, etc.). my faith (= Fr. ma foi!).

                          C. 1350 Will. Palerne 275 Now telle me, felawe, be þi feiþ..sei þou
                          euer þemperour?
                          C. 1420 Sir Amadace (Camd.) lxi, But, be my faythe, with-outun
                          stryue.
                          C. 1477 Caxton Jason 36 b, By your faith seme ye good that I ought
                          to go after him.
                          C. 1489 Caxton Blanchardyn xxiii. 75 On my feyth ye be well the man.
                          1588 Marprel. Epist. (Arb.) 5 By my faith, by my faith..this geare
                          goeth hard with vs.
                          1600 Shaks. A.Y.L. iii. ii. 450 By the faith of my loue, I will.
                          1601 Shaks. All's Well ii. i. 84 Now by my faith and honour.
                          1798 Coleridge Anc. Mar. vii. iv, Strange, by my faith! the Hermit
                          said.
                          1871 Browning Pr. Hohenst. 1421 Weapons outflourished in the wind,
                          my faith!
                          (err) 13. An alleged designation for a company of merchants.

                          1486 Bk. St. Alban's F vij a, A faith of Marchandis.
                          IV. 14. Comb. Chiefly objective, as faith-breach, faith-breaker,
                          faith-philosophy, faith-state, faith-stretcher, faith-value; faith-
                          definition, faith-reformation, faith-tradition; faith-breaking,
                          faith-keeping sb. and adj.; faith-confirming, faith-infringing,
                          faith-shaking, faith-sown, faith-starved, faith-straining, (obs)
                          faith-workful adjs.; faith-wise adv.; faith-cure, a cure wrought by
                          means of `the prayer of faith' (Jas. v. 15); whence faith-curer,
                          faith-curist, one who believes in or practises faith-cure; faith-
                          fire, fig. the flame of faith; faith-healer = faith-curer; faith-
                          healing, healing by faith-cure; faith-ladder (see quot. a 1910);
                          faith-mark, one of the leading tenets of religion; faith-press, the
                          Inquisition.

                          1605 Shaks. Macb. v. ii. 18 Now minutely Reuolts vpbraid his * Faith-
                          breach.
                          C. 1440 Promp. Parv. 153 *Feythe breke(r), fidifragus.
                          1561 T. Norton Calvin's Inst. iv. xx. (1634) 736 They are false
                          Faith-breakers in their office.
                          A. 1649 Drumm. of Hawth. Hist. Jas. II Wks. (1711) 30 They declare
                          the king, and those that abode with him, faith-breakers.
                          1852 Miss Yonge Cameos II. xxi. 236 He was..no faith-breaker.
                          1625 K. Long tr. Barclay's Argenis iii. vii. 174 The very instant of
                          her * faith-breaking.
                          1654 Gayton Pleas. Notes iii. viii. 123 The..covetous Faith-breaking
                          Senate.
                          1645 Quarles Sol. Recant. 56 * Faith-confirming Charity.
                          1885 Century Mag. XXXI. 274 A * faith-cure is a cure wrought by God
                          in answer to prayer.
                          1888 Pop. Sc. Monthly XXXII. 507 The miracles claimed by the * faith-
                          curers.
                          1888 N.Y. Herald 29 July 16/6 Great preparations are being made by
                          the * Faith-Curists..for their annual conference.
                          1665 J. Sergeant Sure-footing in Chr. 209 But he will finde no such
                          fopperies in * Faith-definitions made by the Catholick Church.
                          1890 McCave & Breen Alcester Lect. 40 Neighbouring bishops were
                          expected to keep the * faith-fire ablaze along their frontiers.
                          1885 Century Mag. XXXI. 276 We claim that all * faith-healers should
                          report as do our hospitals.
                          1885 G. Allen in Longm. Mag. VII. 85 Persons who believe in * faith-
                          healing.
                          1621 Brathwait Natures Embassie (1877) 24 A * faith-infringing
                          Polymnestor.
                          1605 Verstegan Dec. Intell. viii. 253 This was..giuen..in
                          recomendation of loyaltie or * faith-keeping.
                          1648 Fairfax, etc. Remonstrance 30 For point of Faith-
                          keeping..witnesse his Accords with the Scottish Nation.
                          A. 1849 J. C. Mangan Poems (1859) 383 The faith-keeping Prince of
                          the Scotts.
                          1909 W. James Pluralistic Universe viii. 328 In some of my lectures
                          at Harvard I have spoken of what I call the `* faith-ladder'.
                          A. 1910 W. James Some Probl. Philos. (1911) App. 224 The following
                          steps may be called the ` faith ladder': 1. There is nothing absurd
                          in a certain view of the world being true, nothing self-
                          contradictory; 2. It might have been true under certain conditions;
                          3. It may be true, even now; 4. It is fit to be true; 5. It ought to
                          be true; 6. It must be true; 7. It shall be true, at any rate true
                          for me. Obviously this is no intellectual chain of inferences, like
                          the sorites of the text-books.
                          1822 Syd. Smith Wks. (1859) II. 8/2 When once the ancient *
                          faith&dubh.marks of the Church are lost sight of.
                          1846 J. D. Morell Hist. View Philos. II. vii. 311 Haumann
                          had..attempted to found a system of *faith-philosophy..but it was
                          Jacobi who first brought the faith-philosophy into repute.
                          1624 T. Scott Lawfuln. Netherlandish War 14 That most
                          intolerable..thraldome of the Inquisition, or * Faith-presse.
                          1665 J. Sergeant Sure-footing in Chr. 233 The..most refin'd
                          quintessence of all * Faith-Reformation.
                          1896 Westm. Gaz. 21 Dec. 2/3 Could anything be more * faith-shaking
                          than this halt of several weeks in the negotiations?
                          1844 J. G. Whittier Wks. (1898) 197/2 * Faith-sown seeds Which ripen
                          in the soil of love.
                          1946 R. Campbell Talking Bronco 69 Where * faith-starved multitudes
                          may quarry As in a mountain, and be fed.
                          1896 Amer. Jrnl. Psychol. Apr. 315 The state of confidence,
                          trust,..which we have found..in every conversion considered is the *
                          Faith-state.
                          1924 W. B. Selbie Psychol. Relig. 158 To induce what psychologists
                          call the faith state may be a very great and wonderful thing if the
                          object of faith is worthy, i.e. God or Christ.
                          1897 Mark Twain Following Equator 172 Here are some * faith-
                          straining figures.
                          1676 Marvell Gen. Councils Wks. 1875 IV. 126 Those * faith-
                          stretchers..that put mens consciences upon the torture.
                          1665 J. Sergeant Sure-footing in Chr. 43 A compleat and proper
                          notion of * Faith-Tradition.
                          1903 G. Tyrrell Lex Orandi xxiii. 191 Mistakings of * faith-values
                          for fact-values are to be ascribed to that almost ineradicable
                          materialism of the human mind which makes us view the visible world
                          as the only solid reality.
                          1869 W. P. Mackay Grace & Truth (1875) 72 Salvation came intellect-
                          wise, and not * faith-wise.
                          1604 Broughton Corrupt. Handl. Relig. (1605) 93 Troup&dubh.full Gad
                          was grauen in this * faithworkfull stone

                          *******************************************************************

                          --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, sinniss@s... wrote:
                          > Jason, Bob, Jamie, and all:
                          >
                          > As to the tone of Jason's most recent epistle, I will say much less
                          politely what Jamie has already implied: it is a grandiose rant. It
                          exhibits none of the humility and enlightenment the author claims to
                          have in such abundance. I do not believe our tiny group of
                          correspondents can support personal attacks on other members, such as
                          those launched by periodically by Jason. However, I do believe it is
                          right to criticize behaviour on occasion, and that time has come.
                          Again.
                          > Jason, I do read widely, since some of our interests overlap, and I
                          recall that I once encountered an example of your behaviour and
                          methods in the records of another online discussion group. I found
                          them repugnantly overbearing then, as I do now (and as the moderator
                          of that group did then). I hope that you will be more considerate in
                          the future.
                          > It would good to begin now.
                          > As to the central point of Jason's made, I cannot endorse it. What
                          extraordinary arrogance is carried in it! Nobody here, and I mean
                          *nobody* is qualified to speak for Mr. Fukuoka. The closest would be
                          Michiyo, who can at least talk to him on occasion. By the same
                          token, nobody has the right to tell anybody else to "shut up" for
                          being a less than pure "disciple of the faith" (as defined by some
                          would-be pope, perhaps?). We are all aware of Bob's biases and of
                          Jamie's biases.
                          > Neither has made any secret of them. I value Bob's eclectic and
                          sceptical perspective, and have great respect for Jamie's attention
                          to fundamentals (a very different thing from fundamentalism!). We
                          can all do our own thinking, thank you very much, and will not
                          confuse their interpretations of Mr. Fukuoka's work with the work
                          itself. As for me, I am interested in both the original and in
                          discussion concerning it, and resent Jason's attempt to cut off that
                          discussion before it begins.
                          >
                          > By all means, Bob and Jamie, do continue. And publicly, not in
                          hiding from some would-be dictator.
                          >
                          > Others have said some of the above, more gently and perhaps with
                          greater elegance. However, I wish to ensure that the message is
                          perfectly clear. These are, perhaps unfortunately, the most
                          charitable words I have been able to find.
                          >
                          > Stephen
                        • pollywog
                          ... comment, share: us idiotic, puter-unsavvy, poor souls without resources do appreciate your effort and thought. deb
                          Message 12 of 16 , Dec 22, 2003
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ---Bob, please continue to dumb down information, condense and
                            comment, share: us idiotic, puter-unsavvy, poor souls without
                            resources do appreciate your effort and thought. deb

                            In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, "animaphile" <animaphile@y...> wrote:
                            > What lies about me, have you bothered to read my post really?
                          • animaphile
                            One again thank you Michiyo for this message 3911, i appreciate the clear straight communication and the effort you have gone to to make it so. The Internet is
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jan 5, 2004
                            • 0 Attachment
                              One again thank you Michiyo for this message 3911, i appreciate the
                              clear straight communication and the effort you have gone to to make
                              it so. The Internet is helpful to & allowing of poor communication
                              and interpretation, it does not include facial expressions, body
                              expressions, hand gestures for emphasising our words, our hormones,
                              our unique, all of us, beautiful physical appearances, it comes
                              between each of our vibes or spirits as a medium of electrons which
                              may possibly partially transmit our spirits to each according to
                              some physicists theories of non-locality in sub-atomic partical
                              interactions. But this apparently is only partial, and i think this
                              is for me a conclusive description of the value and limits of the
                              internet - It is partial and dis-embodied, it takes extra-human
                              communication effort to rise above these shortcomings, finally *i*
                              (just my opinion of course) think Bob did this in his reply message
                              3912 to Michiyo's, I can cope with and even enjoy, whoopy-doo! so
                              what, reading Bob's message 3912.

                              Moving on, as i now can after releasing my above posts meanings from
                              occupying my mind, below is some outstanding stories selected from
                              early Oz European 'explorers' rather pre-judiced and distinctly
                              harmful colonising 'exploration' (re-explore actually), for you all
                              the human worlds appreciation of Oz and its release from racism and
                              lies about Australia's history. It is compilation of written
                              research i have recently done on Natural Farming of cereals by
                              various Indigenous people's of this Oz continent. (sustainable so
                              called aboriginal farmers doing everything cereal farmers do but not
                              plowing which is often stupidly harmful, especially in Oz's ancient
                              soils, no-till European-Oz farmers of course have belatedly learnt
                              no plowing) It makes me joyous to the point of tears sometimes to
                              extract the natural history from these re-explorers partial
                              commentaries and amazes me how much magnificence Europeans-
                              Australians and non-indigenous Australians have ignored &
                              marginalised in our recounting indigenous peoples and lands history
                              and how much land has been destroyed and how much indigenous peoples
                              have been suppressed in the past by 'whitefullas'. Thanks to them
                              all for still being here in Oz and still strong and recovering from
                              us whitefulla's suppressions. I don't know who i be without
                              my 'blackfulla' Oz friends. Also see www.sydneydreaming.com.au, i
                              attended again this last december, it wonderfully mind-blowing.
                              Thanks mates, Jason Stewart

                              *********************************

                              Cooly or Tindil Shizen Nouhou/food-ecosystem management/natural
                              farming (Western NSW Oz Indij people(s) and Cloncurry River Nth QLD,
                              respectively, names for Euro-science's Panicum decompositum
                              Australian Native Millet.)


                              From Tim Low (1988) "Wild Food Plants of Australia" Angus and
                              Robertson Publishers 1988, NSW, Australia.

                              pages 28 - 29
                              `Small seeds are a less obvious food, because hundreds are needed to
                              make a meal. They weren't important foods for Aborigines in coastal
                              areas, except perhaps for wild rice (Oruyza [sic] meridionalis),
                              native flax (Linum marginale) and wattle seeds. But in the outback,
                              where grains grow in vast fields, sophisticated seed-grinding
                              cultures arose. Grass seeds were harvested in the outback at least
                              15,000 years ago. The explorer A. C. Gregory described a more recent
                              harvest along Coopers Creek:

                              "Fields of 1,000 acres are there met with growing this cereal. The
                              natives cut it down by means of stone knives, cutting down the stalk
                              halfway, beat out the seed, leaving the straw which is often met
                              with in large heaps; they winnow by tossing seed and husk into the
                              air, the wind carrying away the husks. The grinding into meal is
                              done by means of two stones, a large irregular slab and a small
                              cannon-ball-like one."

                              Australian millet (Panicum decompositum) was the most important
                              native grain, but many other grasses were also used, including
                              species of Brachiara, Dactyloctenium, Eragrostis, Panicum,
                              Paspalidium, and in the tropics, wild rice (Oryza).

                              Like the grasses, the tiny seeds of pigweed and spores of nardoo
                              were ground on stones and baked as cakes. Seed-grinding was
                              practised throughout much of arid Australia, but did not extend far
                              into forested areas. The limits are indicated by the finds of old
                              grinding stones [archaeology]. Many kinds of wattle seeds were also
                              ground to flour, or eaten green like steamed peas. Kurrajong seeds
                              were often eaten whole. ...`


                              From J.W. Maiden (1889) "The Useful Native Plants of Australia"
                              Facsimile edition published 1975 by Compendium Pty Ltd, Melb.,
                              Australia.

                              page iii
                              'Joseph Henry Maiden
                              Joseph Henry Maiden, botanist, was born in London in 1859 and
                              educated at London University. On account of his health, he was
                              ordered on a sea voyage and came to Australia in 1880.
                              Greatly interested in native plants, he began a lifelong study of
                              systematic botany and forestry in Australia, corresponding and
                              working with von Mueller and others in the field.
                              Among the various positions that he held were those of Curator of
                              the Technological Museum of New South Wales (1881-1896), and
                              Government Botanist and Director of the Botanic Gardens, Sydney
                              (1896-1924). ...'

                              [beware reader of the worse than todays Australian colonial
                              mentality in reading this, it is evident in the language of
                              referring to 'aboriginal' peoples subtly as object, foreign beings,
                              ie. as 'the other', and this incredible ignoring blind-spot towards
                              their farming perhaps colonisers-self-serving willful pretense of
                              ignorance or self-serving-denial-by-disbelief or disbelief-by-self-
                              sense-of-superiority in not understanding what "the natives" purpose
                              was in cutting vast landscapes of grains.]

                              page 51
                              `Human Foods
                              160. Panicum decompositum, R.Br. (Syn. P. laevinode, Lindl.; P.
                              proliferum, F.v.M.;P.amabile, Balansa), N.O, Gramineae, B.Fl., vii.,
                              489.

                              "Native Millet," "Umbrella Grass." The seed used to be
                              called "Cooly" by Western New South Wales aboriginals, and "Tindil"
                              by the aboriginals of the Cloncurry River (North Queensland).

                              The grains pounded yield excellent food, although the grains are
                              rather small. This plant is not endemic to Australia. All the
                              colonies [sic - states of Oz today] except Tasmania.`

                              pages 96 - 98
                              `Forage Plants
                              103. Panicum colonum, Linn. (Syn. Oplismenus colonum, Kunth); B.Fl.,
                              vii., 478.
                              "Shama Millet" of India; called also, in parts of India, "Wild Rice"
                              or "Jungle Rice."
                              Has erect stems from two to eight feet high, and very succulent. The
                              panicles are used by aboriginals as an article of food. The seeds
                              are pounded between stones, mixed with water, and formed into a kind
                              of bread. It is not endemic in Australia.
                              Composition of Shama (husked)-
                              In 100 parts. In 1 lb.
                              Water ... 12.0 ... 1 oz. 403 grs.
                              Albuminoids 9.6 ... 1 '' 234 ''
                              Starch ... 74.3 ... 11'' 388 ''
                              Oil ... .6 ... 42 ''
                              Fibre ... 1.5 ... 105 ''
                              Ash ... 2.0 ... 140 ''
                              Food-grains of India. (Church).
                              North Queensland.[distribution in Oz]
                              ...
                              105. Panicum decompositum, R.Br., (Syn. P. proliferum, F.v.M.; P.
                              amabile, Balansa; P. laevinode, Lindl.); B.Fl., vii, 489.
                              "Australian Millet," "Umbrella Grass," "Tindil" of the aboriginals
                              of the Cloncurry River, North Queensland.

                              One of the most valuable of the Darling Downs (Queensland) grasses.
                              Under cultivation it has yielded in one season over three tons of
                              hay per acre. It is a semi-aquatic species, tall, coarse, and
                              succulent, producing an abundance of feed, and greatly relished by
                              stock. It seeds in December and January. It is short-lived, but is
                              one of the most spacious of Australian nutritious species. The
                              aborigines convert the small millet-like grains into cakes.
                              Alluding to this grass, Sir Thomas Mitchell ("Three Expeditions")
                              pp. 237 and 290, says :- "In the neighbourhood of our camp the grass
                              had been pulled to a very great extent, and piled in hay-ricks [old
                              word for hay-stack], so that the aspect of the desert was softened
                              into the agreeable semblance of a hay-field. The grass had evidently
                              been thus laid up by the natives, but for what purpose we could not
                              imagine. [huh!?] At first I thought the heaps were only the remains
                              of encampments, as the aborigines sometimes sleep on a little dry
                              grass, but when we found the ricks [stacks], or hay-cocks, extending
                              for miles, we were quite at a loss to understand why they had been
                              made. All the grass was of one kind, and not a spike of it was left
                              in the soil, over the whole of the ground ... We were still at a
                              loss to know for what purpose the heaps of one particular kind of
                              grass had been pulled, and so laid up hereabouts. Whether it was
                              accumulated by the natives to allure birds [huh!?], or by rats, as
                              their holes were seen beneath, we were puzzled to determine. The
                              grass was beautifully green beneath the heaps, and full of seeds,
                              and our cattle were very fond of this hay."
                              This plant is not endemic in Australia.
                              All colonies except Tasmania.
                              ...
                              121. Panicum prolutum, F.v.M., B.Fl., vii., 490.
                              ...
                              In former years, the seeds of this grass were gathered in large
                              quantities by the natives as an article of food, and being ground
                              between two stones, was converted into a kind of meal.
                              ...
                              `

                              From A.B. & J.W. Cribb (1987) "Wild Food in Australia" 2nd Ed.
                              Fontana/Collins

                              page 116
                              Seeds
                              `Panicum decompositum Australian Millet, Native Millet, Umbrella
                              Grass

                              This common grass of the interior has a branching inflorescence
                              which breaks of at maturity and is widely distributed by wind. It
                              was one of the most important native food plants, the seeds being
                              ground between stones, made into a paste and baked in the ashes.
                              Major Sir Thomas Mitchell in his "Journal of an Expedition into the
                              interior of Tropical Australia" made an interesting entry concerning
                              this grass, and disclosed his uneasiness at being partly responsible
                              for the eventual displacement of the black man. This entry, made as
                              he journeyed along the Narran River, read as follows: "The Panicum
                              laevinode of Dr. Lindley seemed to predominate, a grass whereof the
                              seed ("Cooly") is made by the natives into a kind of paste or bread.
                              Dry heaps of this grass that has been pulled expressly for the
                              purpose of gathering the seed, lay along our path for many miles. I
                              counted nine miles along the river, in which we rode through this
                              grass only, reaching our saddle-girths, and the same grass seemed to
                              grow back from the river, at least as far as the eye could reach
                              through a very open forest. I had never seen such a rich natural
                              pasturage in any other part of New South Wales. Still it was what
                              supplied the bread of the natives; and these children of the soil
                              were doing everything in their power to assist me, whose wheel
                              tracks would probably bring white man's cattle into it." [Here i
                              suspect is the reason for the what seems the denial of the obvious
                              above in the other quote from this same 'explorer' Mitchell - his
                              guilt, sometimes admitting it sometimes hidding it by denial of in
                              his writing of what he sees, interestingly i don't know but would
                              like to find out the dates of these two, above, of Mitchell's
                              writings.]
                              Distribution: All mainland states
                              `
                            • Adam Carter
                              Hi Jamie, Thanks for the compilation on the aboriginal use of grass seeds. However doesn t this constitute gathering rather than natural farming? To me,
                              Message 14 of 16 , Jan 6, 2004
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                                Hi Jamie,

                                Thanks for the compilation on the aboriginal use of grass seeds.
                                However doesn't this constitute gathering rather than natural farming?
                                To me, gathering is the ideal and natural farming is a substitute that
                                we have been reduced to using due to the destructiveness of our
                                culture.

                                Cheers,

                                Adam
                                Tasmania
                                Australia
                              • animaphile
                                Actually it is Jason from Maap country S.E. Oz, nevermind. Thanks for the reply, yes i d agree that the history is different to natural farming but the
                                Message 15 of 16 , Jan 8, 2004
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                                  Actually it is Jason from Maap country S.E. Oz, nevermind.
                                  Thanks for the reply, yes i'd agree that the history is different to
                                  natural farming but the philosophy and practice integrated together
                                  are the same nowadays in terms of Fukuoka as the example of Natural
                                  Farming to compare with so called hunter gatherers in Oz. Better
                                  described equably in modern or scientific-informed english english
                                  as ecosystem managers or in aboriginal english as people caring for
                                  country.

                                  Please read
                                  http://www.mcauley.acu.edu.au/~yuri/readings/charlesworth.htm
                                  for an in english fairly fair treatment of Oz Indigenous people's
                                  philosophy and the past history of establishment and anthropologist
                                  whitefulla's self-lies and projection in trying to understand Indij
                                  Oz 'blackfulla's'. it has taken 200 years or so (until recently) for
                                  whitefulla's officially (exceptions of course are whitefulla's who
                                  shared their lives with 'blackfulla's) to start to fairly or equably
                                  understand Indij Oz 'blackfulla's civilisations, many of them and
                                  their languages, cultures, religions, variety of land management
                                  practices, foods, highly advanced social systems - more advanced
                                  than any european social systems, and so on.

                                  On subject that is important to me in the comparison we are
                                  discussing is the big lie about agriculture: first this words'
                                  history and etymology is from tilling the soil (agrarian and farming
                                  are not words that come from meanings of tilling soil, they mean to
                                  be out in the field...), culture and cultivated when used in english
                                  as an exclusive, elitist or prejudiced term is based on the
                                  pretension that people who till the soil are superior and more
                                  civilised than people who don't - a very big lie and a super-
                                  simplification also. (What have english farmers who practice no-till
                                  farming done toady - have they suddenly within their lifetimes
                                  become inferior humans and less civilised, i hope this point bemuses
                                  you the reader, furthermore have their societies as a whole become
                                  less civilised because of this, it is/was alot of self-serving
                                  racist or prejudiced and uninformed rot when people for example
                                  english have said this type of thing). In healing the earth today
                                  outcomes are equally as important as purposes and the philosophy.

                                  More later, gotta move
                                  see ya - jyaa-ne
                                  Jason Stewart


                                  --- In fukuoka_farming@yahoogroups.com, Adam Carter <accarter@i...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > Hi Jamie,
                                  >
                                  > Thanks for the compilation on the aboriginal use of grass seeds.
                                  > However doesn't this constitute gathering rather than natural
                                  farming?
                                  > To me, gathering is the ideal and natural farming is a substitute
                                  that
                                  > we have been reduced to using due to the destructiveness of our
                                  > culture.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  >
                                  > Adam
                                  > Tasmania
                                  > Australia
                                • LESLIEANDMARC@aol.com
                                  Please unsubscribe us for the New Year....Thanks.... [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Jan 8, 2004
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                                    Please unsubscribe us for the New Year....Thanks....


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