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VS: the old grey thistle test was RE: [fukuoka_farming] FW: [permaculture] Re: glyphosate resistance

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  • Karri Varpio
    The compensation point, which means that stage of growth, when plant has used most of its energy reserves from roots, but is not yet storing new carbohydrates,
    Message 1 of 17 , Jul 13, 2003
      The compensation point, which means that stage of growth, when plant has
      used most of its energy reserves from roots, but is not yet storing new
      carbohydrates, or simply, when plant is at its weakest, is when Cirsium
      arvense (canada thistle) has ca 8 leaves (this in no-till conditions, if
      roots are tilled shorter, then compensation point is earlier, 4-7 leaves),
      or when Sonchus arvensis, yellow flowered thistle, has 5-7 leaves.
      www.mtt.fi/met/pdf/met9.pdf (abstract in english). Compensation point is
      useful to know to cut weeds at right time, but I guess most important is to
      not cut too late.
      Karri, from Finland (Results above are not (only) from Finland)

    • Robert Monie
      Hi Deb, John Adams once said that if all men were virtuous, there would be no need for Government. Nothing truer has ever been said. Like you, I deplore
      Message 2 of 17 , Jul 13, 2003
        Hi Deb,

        John Adams once said that "if all men were virtuous, there would be no need for Government." Nothing truer has ever been said.

        Like you, I deplore mistreatment of animals and support animal rights and laws in their behalf. My own two cats give me orders and I humbly obey. I am a dietary vegan (I don't even drink milk or eat cheese) and pretty much a gardening vegan too (I don't use any amendments made from animals part or excreta).

        When I suggested that camels might be used to forage up thistles, conjured up an idyllic picture of contented animals lazily pulling them up under the care of something like certified, humane camel handlers.. What you describe is a pathetic exploitation of animals for personal gain, an obscene zoo.

        I agree that the cupidity of the human race can sometimes be astonishing, which is one reason I support advances in technology that can decrease animal exploitation (for example, I would rather have a hybrid car than a cart pulled by a beast of burden).

        Your comment about how quickly the tough thistle softens when steamed set me to recalling that the railroads used to control unwanted vegetation by super-heating it with steam from the locomotives. I wonder if thistles could be steam-cooked right in the ground, and given as dessert to whichever hungry animals or persons wanted them.

        Bob Monie, zone 8

        ---Actually, there are llamas withing 4 miles of me, ostriches within
        a mile, and we had lots of Rheas and a pair of Emus for a few years,
        (abandoned by the owners) until the neighbor's kids thought it was
        funny to shoot them with BB guns. None of those ratites were killed by
        the BB's directly, but the Rheas died from fright since they are
        naturally nervous, albeit lovely animals (called "fence runners" in
        their native and naturalized countries), the Emus escaped, and were
        found later, dead.

        Within 3 miles are: Elk, Moose, an albino deer, and a -yep- pair of
        camels. 3 hours north are a herd of zebras proper, zeedonks (or
        whatever the name is: cross between zebras and donkeys), 13 camels, a
        lioness cub, 2 tigers, and a few wallabeyes. The kangaroo pair that
        was supposed to breed didn't make it, I don't know why. That was at
        last knowledge, 2 months ago, from scuttlebutt.

        About an hour away is a horrible "private" zoo, where monkeys, grizzly
        and black bear, tigers, lions, aardvarks, raccoons, zeedonks, and
        other critters live in squalor. Last I heard from the owner himself,
        he really hated the tigress, she actually bent her cagebars trying to
        get at him once. Her cage is about 10x20', half of a cage with a bar
        wall in the middle, that is 20x20'. Shared with the black bears. The
        bears spend their time on the opposite side of the cage from the
        tigress, for obvious reasons. Seems the visitors don't care, they
        spend their monies and like the show. I gave up trying to get a
        F*&^%$#@ thing done long ago. Handed it over to the Humane Society and
        the DNR, among others, with all the documentation I could gather. That
        was years ago. He's still in business.

        My son had a special, wonderful, relationship with the Emus that lived
        with us. So much for those "weird" autistics, and "stupid" ratites.
        Emus are loyal, wonderful, incredible creatures; with an unrealized
        (by us) soul and intelligence. What happened to them was a Damn Shame.
        What happened to all of these creatures was a Damn Shame. But the
        neighbor kids are only the logical manifest of a larger attitude.

        There is much trading in "exotic animals" in Iowa. Not always the best
        for the animals, but sure makes good bucks for the local yokels.

        Mom Earth has Good Reason For What She Does. Listen to Her. Some
        critters can adapt, but sometimes the adaptatation is too well, or not
        quite well enough, in the time frame, for the needed balance. And,
        sometimes, humans are culturally or individually incapable of honoring

        Sorry Bob, I am not trying to just be contrary here. But, I have seen
        such abuse in this area- was even a part of it, until I learned what
        went on I hadn't looked close enough at, from the start. To My Shame.
        Nothing is worse than a heartfelt convert, I know, but camels in Iowa
        do exist, just not necessarily happily. With best efforts at good
        pasture or other great living, there will be those who see them as
        less than alive, and quite useful for prurient, violent recreation. deb

        > > Camels in Iowa would be a strange site indeed, but if they eat the
        > > thistles, the story might wind up on "60 Minutes." Camels, I am told,

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